Author Topic: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.  (Read 8924 times)

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Offline Masterchief79

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 25 May 2013, 08:01:57 »
I also hit the spacebar only with my right thumb between N and M, on my laptop keyboard you can see the shiny dot very well there :D
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Offline Halvar

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 05:01:23 »
JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.
Even though the right space key is much larger on the ISO layout, what matters is the distance to the home position of the pinky. With the ISO layout, both shifts are nearly at same distance from A or ; respectively. With ANSI or even more with JIS Layout, the right shift is further away than the left one. Also I don't care about the punctuation being grouped together. For me, it's actually easier to remember what's where if they're not grouped together.

Offline davkol

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 13:25:21 »
We're talking about staggered layout. Wrists are positioned at different angles, hence you can't just compare distances.

Offline Halvar

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 30 May 2013, 15:02:59 »
JIS is even worse when you hold your wrists asymmetrically.

Offline connection

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 12:36:34 »
I prefer ISO! When using an ANSI keyboard, it takes some time to get used to the size and position of the Return key. There shouldn't be any typeable characters in between the function keys, which is just begging for making mistakes. The extra language characters on most of the ISO layouts also puts the less common characters under the second level Alt Gr, which makes a lot of sense (how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?). The smaller Shift key on ISO doesn't bother me as it's still the same size as Ctrl, although it makes me use the right Shift more often.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 June 2013, 14:50:59 by connection »

Offline davkol

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 14:44:02 »
how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?

Almost every software developer, TeX user,... Mostly people who are actually serious about computers. ^.^

Offline connection

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 15:04:00 »
how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?

Almost every software developer, TeX user,... Mostly people who are actually serious about computers. ^.^
I see that TeX users need it, and they sure need it a lot, but I don't really see the need even for software developers. When I write C or C++ code, the backslashes turn up at places where you would need to pause to think for a while anyway, and it's really not difficult to press two keys at once those times. Sure, it could save some time to use a US layout to get faster [ ] and semicolons, but i would then prefer the UK ISO layout, which is pretty similar. For most local country versions, I think that the ISO layouts are more logically planned, to resemble the normal usage in standard language, and place the lesser used characters under modifiers.

Offline davkol

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 15:13:54 »
Don't forget that the pipe is on the same key on standard QWERTY.

Moreover, there's this retarded use of backslash as path delimiter on MS Windows.

edit: escape sequences
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 June 2013, 15:16:36 by davkol »

Offline connection

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 15:55:28 »
Don't forget that the pipe is on the same key on standard QWERTY.

Moreover, there's this retarded use of backslash as path delimiter on MS Windows.

edit: escape sequences
Yeah, sure but it's still two keys to push for the pipe (shift+\ in a US layout, compared to AltGr+< in some European ISO layouts). The escape sequences is the only thing that I use the backslash for, and when you do them, you need to think, so I have no problem doing that. Well, the backslash key debate is actually more about the language layout than about ISO/ANSI, but most of the extra characters on the US keyboard layout is more directed towards technical use, than to regular writing.

In the ANSI layout, the backslash key would be the most "annoying" part for writing anything other than TeX, or programming as it gets in the way of the return key. For me, I can press the ISO return key with my pinky without moving the hand too much, and without bending the finger in any direction. Using the ANSI layout, I need to bend my finger in a crazy way, to avoid hitting backslash, or move my full hand to push return.

I consider the absolutely worst keyboard layout to be the European ANSI keyboard layout, where the backspace key is the same size as any other key on the keyboard, to get the space for the extra key. Here, it's not only that you easily can write the wrong characters, but when you want to remove them, you also miss the backspace key.

Offline davkol

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 12 June 2013, 21:53:57 »
Yeah, sure but it's still two keys to push for the pipe (shift+\ in a US layout, compared to AltGr+< in some European ISO layouts). The escape sequences is the only thing that I use the backslash for, and when you do them, you need to think, so I have no problem doing that. Well, the backslash key debate is actually more about the language layout than about ISO/ANSI, but most of the extra characters on the US keyboard layout is more directed towards technical use, than to regular writing.

AltGr + Q/W on Czech QWERTZ. IMO national layouts are complete mess AFAIK.

In the ANSI layout, the backslash key would be the most "annoying" part for writing anything other than TeX, or programming as it gets in the way of the return key. For me, I can press the ISO return key with my pinky without moving the hand too much, and without bending the finger in any direction. Using the ANSI layout, I need to bend my finger in a crazy way, to avoid hitting backslash, or move my full hand to push return.

It works the other way around for me. I $@#!ing hate ISO enter, because I have to move whole hand to hit it.

I consider the absolutely worst keyboard layout to be the European ANSI keyboard layout, where the backspace key is the same size as any other key on the keyboard, to get the space for the extra key. Here, it's not only that you easily can write the wrong characters, but when you want to remove them, you also miss the backspace key.

Ummm, what? You mean that wicked Asian layout with big-ass Enter? That has nothing to do with ANSI.

Offline connection

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 01:36:58 »
Ummm, what? You mean that wicked Asian layout with big-ass Enter? That has nothing to do with ANSI.
No, not that one, but it has the same tiny backspace, but otherwise ANSI layout, and then localized to the local language. They have the ANSI shift keys and the ANSI return key, but the extra key from the ISO layout is squeezed right next to the backspace. I couldn't find any pictures now, but I used to have one a few years ago, that was about $3 new (rubber dome and the cheapest possible plastics). I suspect that they come from a Chinese factory that wanted to save money on not making a new key mold.

Offline davkol

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 13 June 2013, 01:53:17 »
Never seen that.

Offline nappi11

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:08:50 »
I'm posting from Rhodes island, and this is the first time I have to use ANSI layout keyboard.
And it's goddamn horrible when trying to press enter, all the time the *cking \\\\\\\ comes to spoil, because the enter key is only one row "high". The keyboard I use home has bigass enter and finnish model-f styled "ISO" layout, so the difference between enter keys is really big.

Also, the ""''::{]][[] and other symbols are in very, very strange places for me. I must watch the keyboard all the time when trying to type such symbols.

Never going to buy a keyboard with ANSI layout :smoke:

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Offline damorgue

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:32:36 »
The extra keys make it necessary. Swedish uses them quite a bit and having them in some far of location or behind multiple modifiers would be a hassle, especially singe you may also want to write a capital ┼─Í which might then require quite a few keys being pressed at once.

Offline Gemini

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 14 December 2013, 07:33:44 »
Just bought my first mechanical although it hasn't arrived yet (Leopold) and am kinda worried about the ansi layout.  I hadn't even considered it.  After years of massive enter keys I think I may miss it. Although I've been using a Spanish laptop set to UK layout for the last few years (don't ask) so anything will be better than that.  I can see me getting a terminal keyboard sometime though if I can one as quiet as brown switches, or maybe a cherry keyboard.  I really like those raised alt keys old keyboards used to have too. 

Yeah, really hoping the small enter key isn't an issue.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 December 2013, 07:38:15 by Gemini »

Offline Novus

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #65 on: Sat, 14 December 2013, 13:18:10 »
My 2 cents.
I'm an ANSI user since I'm American.
Since I'm a touch typer with relatively high WPM I have alot of trouble adjusting to the other keyboard layouts.
I've used the ISO layout a few times in Europe, it's very annoying to have to look down to look for those symbols such as @. #, " " and etc
Particularly, the @ which I commonly use and is normally typed with the left hand for us ANSI users but it's over on the right for the ISO layout.
I've also used the JIS layout (which is close to the ISO layout) when I was over in Japan. I was typing in English and it was just difficult again because of the different key layout.

I don't think one keyboard layout is better than the other - it's just a matter of what you are used to and your typing proficiency.

Offline vivalarevoluciˇn

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #66 on: Sat, 14 December 2013, 14:33:00 »
The big enter, baby.  I love it on my Model F.

The small left shift, however, takes some adjustment.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline randomist

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #67 on: Sun, 15 December 2013, 07:33:16 »
I grew up with ISO, and while I don't think we need the extra key so much in the UK, I like having the \| key right next to shift on the left (Very useful as one of the 3 push to talk buttons I use when gaming). I also like that there's nothing between the enter and backspace keys because I have pretty long fingers so its much easier for me to use the top of the enter key.

Could I use ANSI? Yes. Would it be as quick and easy even after I learned where the keys are? No.

However I am starting to research and consider switching one board to colemak, and I'm not entirely sure whether ANSI would prove as disadvantageous in that case as ANSI colemak seems more established. I still think that the small enter is a drawback, but caps being remapped as backspace still gives me that extra useful key.

Offline Oobly

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #68 on: Mon, 16 December 2013, 03:45:56 »
Gaming, baby! Oh yeah!

The extra key within reach of your left hand when gaming is nice. And I am quite used to the big Enter key and like to just bash somewhere in the general vicinity to emphasise "I am now done with this line!" and know it will work.

Like that!

BAM!

And again.... MUAHAHAHA!

Also, as a Windows programmer, having backslash and pipe in easy to reach places is nice (UK ISO layout). Finnish ISO layout isn't so code-friendly (it's actually really sucky, so it just proves it doesn't really matter too much since there are so many brilliant Finnish coders).

But it sucks finding keycaps to fit. Most of the best sets are ANSI only.  :(
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline spremino

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 24 December 2013, 04:03:20 »
That extra key is useful. Standard keyboards already have too few keys available, every little helps. One day I could switch to Japanese keyboards.

I also type with the bottom left keys shifted one column to the left, and the ISO layout fits such scheme perfectly. Such scheme helps with the admittedly awkward placement of the left Shift key: it has the same distance as the right Shift, but since in traditional touch typing hands do not follow a symmetrical pattern, the left Shift feels farther.

Since I type with my right keys shifted one key to the right, I wouldn't mind the smaller Enter key of the ANSI layout.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 December 2013, 04:08:51 by spremino »
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline Oobly

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 27 December 2013, 04:13:10 »
That extra key is useful. Standard keyboards already have too few keys available, every little helps. One day I could switch to Japanese keyboards.

I also type with the bottom left keys shifted one column to the left, and the ISO layout fits such scheme perfectly. Such scheme helps with the admittedly awkward placement of the left Shift key: it has the same distance as the right Shift, but since in traditional touch typing hands do not follow a symmetrical pattern, the left Shift feels farther.

Since I type with my right keys shifted one key to the right, I wouldn't mind the smaller Enter key of the ANSI layout.

Some mechanical keyboard PCB's allow for either layout on the same board, so you could possibly move the switches on the right hand side and use a mix of ISO and ANSI caps.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline damorgue

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Re: ISO layout supporters: Defend it.
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 08 January 2014, 23:54:14 »
I use ISO because it is necessary in order to fit the required extra characters. You do not want letters used frequently to be hidden under layers.

I've used the ISO layout a few times in Europe, it's very annoying to have to look down to look for those symbols such as @. #, " " and etc
Particularly, the @ which I commonly use and is normally typed with the left hand for us ANSI users but it's over on the right for the ISO layout.
I've also used the JIS layout (which is close to the ISO layout) when I was over in Japan. I was typing in English and it was just difficult again because of the different key layout.
I was confused there for a while because I did not understand how you could possibly use the right hand to press @ on ISO. Most ISO-types, including mine have @ on the left side, for instance located under 2 or Q. I did not realize that UK ISO has placed the @ elsewhere. I do not see the reason for doing that. It would likely be easier for me to switch from my ISO to ANSI rather than to UK ISO.