hey which keyboard are u using for starcraft 2 ?

[baldgye]

hm, I'll give you some pointers if you like.

I'm medium-high masters, and play Zerg.

No offence, but if someone is bronze the only advice you can give them that would be worth anything is keep making probes/scv's/drones and pylons/depos/overlords.... You really don't have to worry about builds untill like gold league

[viowastaken]

hm, I'll give you some pointers if you like.

I'm medium-high masters, and play Zerg.

No offence, but if someone is bronze the only advice you can give them that would be worth anything is keep making probes/scv's/drones and pylons/depos/overlords.... You really don't have to worry about builds untill like gold league

Nonsense. I know from experience that the learning curve is extremely decreased by having certain things cleared up for you. One thing is following a specific build order to the exact supply, another is having a basic idea of what structures to build when, how many production facilities to have per base, when to take your base, timings you can do etc.

Besides the sooner you learn the proper way to do that the sooner you actually gain more from practicing. You could do 40 ladder games a day doing a build order that doesn't make any sense, and you'd probably win anyways often. That isn't very helpful in the long run and wastes a lot of potentially more helpful practice hours.

[Sifo]

You can work on build order and mechanics at the same time. In the earlier levels I would prioritize mechanics because honestly you can win with 1 build order for each race, with average mechanics up until Diamond. Pick one build, get really good at it. Perfect the hell out of it. You will win many games

[baldgye]

I hate to break people's bubble, but if your in bronze silver leagues it's because you don't have any mechanics. Learning builds etc would be in-large a waste of time of you can't build probes/pylons etc.
It would be like going to your first football game and wanting to know how to scissor kick, without being able to pass the ball.

I wouldn't worry about builds or even proper openings untill you hit gold league.

[baldgye]

You need to have fundamentals in order to learn build orders, if your in bronze it's probablly because you don't have these fundamentals.

[baldgye]

hm, I'll give you some pointers if you like.

I'm medium-high masters, and play Zerg.

No offence, but if someone is bronze the only advice you can give them that would be worth anything is keep making probes/scv's/drones and pylons/depos/overlords.... You really don't have to worry about builds untill like gold league

Nonsense. I know from experience that the learning curve is extremely decreased by having certain things cleared up for you. One thing is following a specific build order to the exact supply, another is having a basic idea of what structures to build when, how many production facilities to have per base, when to take your base, timings you can do etc.

Besides the sooner you learn the proper way to do that the sooner you actually gain more from practicing. You could do 40 ladder games a day doing a build order that doesn't make any sense, and you'd probably win anyways often. That isn't very helpful in the long run and wastes a lot of potentially more helpful practice hours.

I disagree.
If your playing (laddering) and just doing random builds and seeing what will work, you'll still learn alot from it. Seeing what does and what dosnt work. You learn more from lossing most of the time than you do by winning.

HotS still has alot of figuring out to be done about it and so past the early game, only really concepts...

The only way to learn nothing is to cheese every game

[keymaster]

hm, I'll give you some pointers if you like.

I'm medium-high masters, and play Zerg.

No offence, but if someone is bronze the only advice you can give them that would be worth anything is keep making probes/scv's/drones and pylons/depos/overlords.... You really don't have to worry about builds untill like gold league

Nonsense. I know from experience that the learning curve is extremely decreased by having certain things cleared up for you. One thing is following a specific build order to the exact supply, another is having a basic idea of what structures to build when, how many production facilities to have per base, when to take your base, timings you can do etc.

Besides the sooner you learn the proper way to do that the sooner you actually gain more from practicing. You could do 40 ladder games a day doing a build order that doesn't make any sense, and you'd probably win anyways often. That isn't very helpful in the long run and wastes a lot of potentially more helpful practice hours.

Agree 100%. If I was still just playing on my own without any outside knowledge, I'd still be trying to figure out why I'm not winning. Watching PvP games and strategy helped immensely.

[baldgye]

People who can't make probes as pylons should waste there time trying to learn build orders.
Let me rephrase that, people in bronze should focus on the basics.

[viowastaken]

People who can't make probes as pylons should waste there time trying to learn build orders.
Let me rephrase that, people in bronze should focus on the basics.

EVERY ONE of the best coaches all agree that practicing build orders is fundamental to general improvement in the game.
Resource management, tech choices, decision making, timings, everything is incorporated in various build orders.

It's ironic that you say the only way not to improve is to cheese. Unless we're talking about a sixpool or a proxy 2 gate or equal super simple cheese, cheese/allins are actually a very good way of understanding how the game works. Leenock who is one of the best zergs in the world said as much too.

I understand you are of a different opinion, but please recognize the fact that you are in the minority with your beliefs, and that people of much greater "e-authority" completely agree.

[baldgye]

It's like you don't read my posts.

Though do tell me more about this 'e-authority'

[viowastaken]

I have yet to hear of / see a reputable coach that doesn't teach build orders, even for people in bronze and silver, as a building block to learn on. Not necessarily super strict build orders, but general outlines of what to do and roughly when to do it.  If you can't deal with that basic fact then that's just too bad.

Frankly, the fact that you don't see the value of build outlines / build orders in learning is a testament to the level you are at in the game.

Lets say our objective was to drive from Paris to Amsterdam. By your logic the only significant limiting factor is the average speed you are able to drive. The reality is that the speed you are traveling is only important if you are driving in the right direction - and even if you were to practice to increase your speed, it would be ridiculous not to learn the way you need to drive first.

[baldgye]

Repeating the same **** over and over dsnt really make your argument any better you know.
And please, list for me the reputable coaches that teach bronze level players, and the builds they teach them.


Or, just not bother to read my post again and just repost the same inane nonsense that you've been posting that has literally no relevance to how bronze level people should start learning the game.



Wait I just read your post, your literally thick as pig **** and make wild assumptions, like me not valuing build orders, which is why I'm low level my self... Which would be nice if it was true wouldn't it?
For the record I'm mid to high dimond, with a pretty good record at beating masters players when bnet matches me against them.

[rekanise]

Guys I think there are always more than one way to teach someone to play and the approach can be different based on each individual player. I've done a little coaching and I think it can be quite subjective at times.

[baldgye]

But would you not agree that, someone in bronze league, is probably there becuse they can't saturate a mineral field, or properly use hotkeys for example... And that teaching them build orders is kinda meaningless bar just learning standard openings (9pylon/12gate/14gas... Etc)

[Johan]

I wouldn't completely agree, I would say you heavily underestimate the "skill" of bronze players, most people are stuck in the lower leagues because they don't know anything about army compositions, have a basic understanding of hot keys, I recently played random on Na, It seemed like their main issue besides basics like Supply management and what to build, and simple stuff. This thing can be taught in a small amount of time. The more complex stuff like supply management takes time and is more easily taught via builds. 15 hatch 17 gas 16 pool, speed then banenest taught me the basic overlord timings and the basic idea of openers and is in my experience more efficient then just practicing with someone telling you to build more overlord/depos/pylons at  times.

[Q404]

And also a bo gives bronzies a way to hold on to something ,they want safety,  a stabile base and they get it with that.

[LifeIsGooD2]

I played with brown filco for a long time

switched to 45g realforce topre and its absolutely perfect

so easy on my hands for long session

[F u r u y á]

PLU ML-87 MX Red

stock keycaps (POM) and fat O'Rings!

[Moosecraft]

Ducky G2pro tkl mx browns. Was masters in WoL. Slowly getting the hang of hots so I'm only plat/dia level.

[baldgye]

I wouldn't completely agree, I would say you heavily underestimate the "skill" of bronze players

I don't know about that so much lol but I can see the point your trying to make. I have friends that are learning the game and target than build orders I just show them openings that are good and that should keep them safe.
Past that it's not super important what they do really.

And for the record, I've made it from copper league in the WoL beta to diamond league, and while diamond league isn't good or anything to shout about it's still progression from copper, little of which came from mastering builds.





But I think this offtopic argument might have gone on long enough lol

[viowastaken]

I wouldn't completely agree, I would say you heavily underestimate the "skill" of bronze players

I don't know about that so much lol but I can see the point your trying to make. I have friends that are learning the game and target than build orders I just show them openings that are good and that should keep them safe.
Past that it's not super important what they do really.

And for the record, I've made it from copper league in the WoL beta to diamond league, and while diamond league isn't good or anything to shout about it's still progression from copper, little of which came from mastering builds.





But I think this offtopic argument might have gone on long enough lol

The argument was never that you absolutely need builds and outlines to reach a certain league, just that you learn faster when you don't have to wonder as much about what you are about to do.

masters+GM advice here, or you could take mr platinum's tips if you want.  I find it so comical when people who are awful at something want to give tips and insight on how to do it. I have a friend who has only played since HotS came out, and he's already platinum.

Anyways, this thread isn't about n00bs sc2 opinions, rather keyboards in SC2. I stand by my opinion that close Fkey cluster keyboards like the noppoo mini or keycool 84 are the optimal boards for sc2 since they allow you to utilize Fkeys much quicker than other boards. Of course it's not a prerequisite as most of the best sc2 gamers don't use them, but I do know of quite a few who do and really love them.

[F u r u y á]

I stand by my opinion that close Fkey cluster keyboards like the noppoo mini or keycool 84 are the optimal boards for sc2 since they allow you to utilize Fkeys much quicker than other boards. Of course it's not a prerequisite as most of the best sc2 gamers don't use them, but I do know of quite a few who do and really love them.

I don't think it's a good idea to use close cluster Function keyboards since you restrain yourself to a very unusual layout and if for some reason you don't have your keyboard with you and see yourself in a place with standard layout keyboards, you're in trouble! It's too much of a difference in my opinion. Is it allowed in tournaments?

[baldgye]

masters+GM advice here, or you could take mr platinum's tips if you want.

lmao

[viowastaken]

I stand by my opinion that close Fkey cluster keyboards like the noppoo mini or keycool 84 are the optimal boards for sc2 since they allow you to utilize Fkeys much quicker than other boards. Of course it's not a prerequisite as most of the best sc2 gamers don't use them, but I do know of quite a few who do and really love them.

I don't think it's a good idea to use close cluster Function keyboards since you restrain yourself to a very unusual layout and if for some reason you don't have your keyboard with you and see yourself in a place with standard layout keyboards, you're in trouble! It's too much of a difference in my opinion. Is it allowed in tournaments?

Well, to be honest I don't see that being a big problem. First of all I'm usually never going to play any starcraft on another pc, and if I am i'll just bring my own peripherals. If I was to suddenly find my self having to play sc2 without my own keyboard any where close, the mouse i'm playing with is probably also crap which would be a much bigger concern than the keyboard.

There are several brands which produce the boards in that layout now, and buying a new one isn't a problem, and likely will not be for any foreseeable future.

It is allowed in tournaments. IIRC the only thing which tourneys frown on is multi function macro keys IE two or more commands issued by one click/keypress.

[F u r u y á]

One with a Phantom board could easily hide a big macro in the controller level hehe.

[viowastaken]

One with a Phantom board could easily hide a big macro in the controller level hehe.

AFAIK there is no macro which would be particularly beneficial. There used to be a benefit to having a button that was a mass mouse1click spam for throwing down infested terrans really fast. However ever since the IT were nerfed to not receive upgrades they are used less and less, so it's less of an issue.

[rekanise]

FYI, macros are considered illegal

[Creizai]

I was using a HHKB Pro 2 man that was rough.. it worked though.   I even made a thread about it a while ago. 

I would love to get another discussion going about playing SC2 on a HHKB and really laddering.  The biggest issues I see right now are were the hell am I going to save my screen locations at?  I use my L super key all the time I'm not giving it up for another FN, and even when I do to use those F keys is a complete *****. 

Also finally learning grid after playing for 2 years, talk about being horrible again.   I think I'll replay the campaign or something so I don't freak out so much.

[Potologue]

Ducky shine 2.

[rekanise]

hey guys in case you didn't see but theres a starcraft signup thread right above this post, whoevers been on this thread should sign up.