Author Topic: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.  (Read 308141 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #800 on: Mon, 02 December 2019, 21:44:58 »
A separate thread SGTM (feel free to post a link to it in this one. otherwise I probably won't see it :).

Also, if you want to document/edit/add anything in the wiki, let me know :)

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #801 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 03:04:52 »

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #802 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 03:23:07 »
The current design primarily uses 1/16" cube magnets. You can try to use the ones you linked, but you'll have to tweak the design to accept that size of magnet. And since they're a bit smaller, they'll be a bit weaker. In the case of the magnets for the central key, that may be a good thing, since I had to bake the 1/16" magnets to reduce their strength. In the case of the side keys, you may need to adjust the vertical alignment of the magnets between the base and the key post. In the current design, there is a slight offset between them in order to slightly reduce the key force. With the slightly weaker magnets, you may need to remove that offset to increase the key force.

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #803 on: Tue, 03 December 2019, 23:56:44 »
For larboard,

100x 1/16" N42 cube magnets - kjmagnetics
88x 1/8" x 1/8" x 1/16" N48 magnets

How did you choose the size and strength? Was it based on availability or something else?
Is it recommended to choose one small, and one larger?

I found some rounded N35 magnets, ranging from D 1mm-5mm, with thickness 1mm-5mm
I might try to get some D=2mm with 2mm thickness and D=3mm with 2mm thickness ? Do you have other recommendations?

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #804 on: Wed, 04 December 2019, 00:12:09 »
A bit of both. The 1/16" ones were the smallest ones I could find that were readily available in the US, and they turned out to be about the right strength.

The larger ones are only used on the bottoms of the standoffs and the handrests, to hold them down onto the base plate, so the exact size/strength doesn't really matter. You should be able to use anything as long as you can adapt the parts to accept it and it's strong enough to keep everything stuck down onto the base plate.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #805 on: Wed, 04 December 2019, 00:24:26 »
Another thing to consider when choosing the smaller magnets is the thickness of the walls that they'll be placed in. For example, I think I chose the thickness of the key stem based on the thickness of the magnet, plus maybe 1 or 2 layer-heights worth of plastic. If you choose a thicker magnet, you may need to increase the thickness of the key stems (and also the corresponding receiving void in the base), and possibly some of the thin walls in the base too.

I tried to keep the design reasonably parametric, but there were a few things in the design that were too much of a pain to try and calculate, so I just measured or used trial and error to come up with a magic number.

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #806 on: Wed, 04 December 2019, 01:32:30 »
Thank you JesusFreke!
So, I'll need 100 magnets for the key switches, which makes more sense now.
I'll first experiment with D=2mm Thickness=2mm then.

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #807 on: Wed, 11 December 2019, 01:30:38 »
Hey everyone,

I yet live. And have not stopped working on this, but I ran into unusual problems with some yet undiscovered solutions. After spending _quite_ some time re-modelling the main finger cluster to be a) more adjustable and b) easier to (dis)assemble, at least that part appears to be somewhat acceptable now.
Here are some modifications I believe to be improvements:
1) I eventually ditched the vertical, sliding magnet layout for the central key; it seemed to be prone for getting stuck and sometimes unrecoverably so (even via filing) and have now implemented a solution I thought impossible at first:
231642-0
By moving the magnet into a top cover plate and shaping the key itself somewhat like a hook, the magnets now pull up rather than to the side. The cover can be printed with different horizontal magnet displacements, thus greatly affecting upwards strength of this key. I have experimented with displacements up to 0.7 mm, which produces an almost ethereal key - still without getting stuck. Down to <=0.2 mm displacement the keys get rather harsh to press on the long run.
The top cover plate is held down by 2x4 1/16" magnets. All magnets are recoverable unless glued.
2) The central key is now located in a removable tube, which experiences the most frictional wear (apart from the key itself) and can be filed/replaced individually.
3) To assure cleaner sides I split the key itself into first two, later three parts, printing the central shaft horizontally to use the print sheet's perfectly flat surface. The cap part is designed around similar ideas. Since the shaft has to be pressed into the cap, that part needs to have a bottom opening, which creates an overhang if not split, which causes a ton of problems. Hence, this part is split as well. The two cap parts are actually designed to clip, which works pretty well at least when printing with a 0.25mm nozzle. Although I had the same idea to combine the cap and shaft, the best I could achieve was a sticking. Of the 8 keys I made 7 stuck just fine, one had to be glued eventually.
4) Since I introduced the top plate to handle the central key mechanic, this also increased cluster height, unfortunately. That, in turn meant the keys had to be longer, without leaning that much further than their smaller counterparts. This, in turn, meant they had to increase thickness with height, however not all to the way to the top, thus making the old way of printing very bad. I eventually split the keys into two parts each. The version I still mostly use (and which can be seen in the above schematic) requires glue. I have since developed a key part setup which should clip, but at least with a 0.4mm nozzle it's more like a sticking, requiring some initial pressure to hold. I have not used them in practice; I do not know if they hold for longer periods of time.
5) Growing tired of fiddling magnets into the holes, I eventually got the idea of making the magnet holes removable in the form of a ring-like shape. It is printed separately and can be removed and reused again in a different cluster, if necessary. The shape makes installing magnets heck of a lot easier. And, if nothing else, the magnets can be recovered easily. Since it is held by the top plate, it need not be glued or magnetized to the cluster.
6) The whole cluster is designed to fit to a PCB board, taking care of the local logic. After some mishaps and redesigns on that front, it seems to be working reliably now. There are openings for the connector and resistor network. I replaced the original 8 pin resistor network with a 6 pin one, which fits well into the width of the cluster. Out of the latest 8 clusters none have shown problems or had to be re-soldered.
Much of the above modifications are designed around reducing the risk of re-soldering anything. Once soldered, all force adjustments and replacements can be made with reprinting just one or two parts. The soldered parts remain unchanged.
7) Everything is designed in Fusion 360 now, and adjustments can be made using parameters. It's quite nifty but I think Fusion is at its limits now. I managed to produce a few freezes and crashes. Still, this is worlds apart from the software I used before.

The consequence of all the (assumed) improvements means a cluster now has heck of a lot more parts:
231644-1
And assembled:
231646-2
(I added shoes to increase traction of the metal feet).
Still fits to the original shafts and screws though. Nothing has been changed on that front (yet).

So, with that part covered, my attention moved back to the hand rest which needed some serious work. After many, many modifications and re-prints, I am currently at a four-part layout:
231648-3
Basically, the bottom part (bottom-left most, white), allows altering the inclination (along both axes) and base height of the rest without reprinting everything else. I have managed to make it adjustable via user parameters without having to fix the whole history afterwards.
The part is held by magnets, and to get to those with pliers I had to remove the central filling, which reduced traction and had to be added again with a removable inlay part (next to the right, black). When installed, it is pressed against the metal ground, ideally using a rubber surface in-between.
The center part is mostly still the same, although I keep modifying it anyways, mostly to get more space for the key clusters next to it. The top part is also continuously being adjusted to fit my hand. The main reason for all of this is that my hands are not steady, and need to be at perfect rest. Otherwise they shake and I press keys I do not want to press.
While the solution, as is, should work for most people (although with some adjustments I guess), I am currently working on some really crazy stuff to keep the fingers afloat without impairing their movement. I can adjust key strength to keep my fingers at rest but then the keys are too strong on the long run. If I make them weaker, eventually my fingers can no longer rest on them. But this, I think, is more of a personal problem most people don't have.

231650-4
I dubbed this thing 'Po's Paws'. The visual similarity wasn't actually planned :D
I think I'll just upload this stuff as is. I'm just not looking forward to documenting it properly. I'll keep you posted.
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 December 2019, 11:21:52 by ironfox »

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #808 on: Wed, 11 December 2019, 02:31:34 »
very cool! Did you use silicone wires or PVC?

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #809 on: Fri, 13 December 2019, 11:24:23 »
very cool! Did you use silicone wires or PVC?
The BOM tells me it's PVC. So, yeah, I had to wrangle them a bit. Now they stay the way I need them :)


Right, I also managed to upload the cluster STLs and some instructions how to use this.
It'll eventually, hopefully, make it into the original repo, but until that happens, here's the direct link to my fork:
https://github.com/IronFox/lalboard/tree/master/stls/ironfox%20cluster2
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 December 2019, 11:29:39 by ironfox »

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #810 on: Sat, 14 December 2019, 03:07:02 »
IronFox, which TOP (1-8) did you use? and approximately how heavy is it?

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #811 on: Sat, 14 December 2019, 04:02:14 »
There's a slight offset in the magnet sketch. What's the usage?

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #812 on: Sat, 14 December 2019, 12:27:22 »
IronFox, which TOP (1-8) did you use? and approximately how heavy is it?

I started off using top 2, which turned out a little harsh on the long run. Some of my keys are currently 5, some 7. I will get back to evaluating how much is enough or too weak once I figured out how to keep my fingers from auto-pressing overly weak keys.
I would suggest you print one of 2, 5, and 7, and see which of those suits you best. Then maybe some in-between and eventually the whole bunch. You'll need 8 of those anyways so printing a few to test what force you need shouldn't be an issue.


There's a slight offset in the magnet sketch. What's the usage?

It's to weaken the force of the side keys. It's much larger in the original STLs, causing the keys to be much weaker. I was testing to increase their force since their length has increased. The fact it isn't exactly zero is mostly a remnant from a different layout. There is a user variable (SideMagnetDisplacement) that controls it. If you need weaker side keys, you can increase that variable, but they will not get much stronger than they are now with the current layout.
Changing the variable affects the keys only. Not the cluster.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 December 2019, 12:30:47 by ironfox »

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 128
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #813 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 22:15:34 »
Is there a gerber package for the left thumb PCB of lalboard?
I downloaded https://github.com/IronFox/lalboard/blob/master/eagle/thumb%20left/CAMOutputs.zip but it doesn't contain gerber files.

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #814 on: Mon, 30 December 2019, 03:11:36 »
Is there a gerber package for the left thumb PCB of lalboard?
I downloaded https://github.com/IronFox/lalboard/blob/master/eagle/thumb%20left/CAMOutputs.zip but it doesn't contain gerber files.

Huh, how'd that happen...
Should be fixed now. Sorry for the delay

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #815 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 15:03:27 »
I can see where the 1/16" magnets go, but where do the 1/8" magnets go?

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #816 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 15:38:17 »
Ironfox, what is your educational background, particularly the parts that helped you design the modification you made?

I'm pretty envious of yours and JesusFreke's skillz.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #817 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 15:47:51 »
heh, thanks :)

I'm a software engineer by hobby and trade. I mostly just tinker in electronics - I've never designed an actual pcb or anything. No formal training or anything in CAD/mechical design/3d printing - I mostly just learn it as I go :)

the 1/8" magnets are used on the bottom of the standoffs and the bottom of the handrest, to hold them to the steel sheet.

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #818 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 17:40:01 »
No prob! :)

That's a good solution.

Can you please recommend some resources to learn how to make or modify a 3d printed input device like this one?

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #819 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 17:46:42 »
I had first got into 3d printing a few years back, which was also my first foray into doing any sort of 3d design. When I got my 3d printer, this project was one of 2 big projects I had in mind that I eventually wanted to tackle, but I knew I didn't have anywhere near the skill/knowledge/expertise. So I just experimented with other smaller/simpler stuff, and eventually got comfortable enough with everything that I decided to finally tackle the keyboard.

I don't have any specific resources to recommend. I guess my advice is mostly just keep trying things and learning :)

Offline legopowa

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #820 on: Sun, 19 January 2020, 19:25:14 »
Cool, thanks.

I guess persistence is pretty key.

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #821 on: Tue, 25 February 2020, 03:20:20 »
Ironfox, what is your educational background, particularly the parts that helped you design the modification you made?

I'm pretty envious of yours and JesusFreke's skillz.

Heh, I had few particularly useful skills for this. I have the ancient German equivalent of a master's degree in computer science, with possibly a PhD (if my prof ever gets around to evaluating that blasted thing). I'm a fairly decent software developer and have dabbled in making my own games. The 3d modelling experience did help but printing is a very different beast to wrangling visual-only game models.
Before this project I did exactly zip with 3d printing, electronic wiring, or computer peripheral design, for the most part because I had no motivation to do so. Then my fingers started hurting and the doctors told me they had no idea what to do about it. I can work with bracers without too much pain but my side projects are all dead in the water. Which is a bummer because I have a game in early access on Steam.
So, yeah, this is learning by necessity and it took me about a year of trial-and-error to get here. How do they say, 'Necessity is the mother of innovation'  :D - our German equivalent translates more closely to 'distress makes innovative'. That's me  :)

Speaking of which, this is my current progress:
236443-0236445-1236447-2236449-3
The primary idea here is to keep the fingers floating using individual rests, kept up by repulsive magnets, rotating on metal shafts and screws. I also use these rests to push the fingers further apart, making some keys easier to reach. I kinda reused the spare screws I had from my Prusa printer assembly and later just bought more. Works well enough. I also found a use for those 1/8" magnets. I use them to position the rests horizontally. They are just the right strength for that.
It takes a lot of work to fine tune, and I have this suspicion it won't work so well for others without some major adjustments. I do not claim my hands are standard issue.
Contrary to what it may look in the image, it isn't nearly ready. Right now, the pinky finger is under a lot of stress and I have trouble angling the finger clusters far enough. As you can see I already put the fore finger cluster on special shoes that lean further than possible with the original design. I expect to create several more of these, possibly connecting to the clusters by other means than their feet.
But the hand rest design is fully modular now. I can work on some parts without having to change or re-print the rest. I hope when I'm done with this, the electronics still work  :-X

I was reminded that I did not publish any Fusion designs for the thumb clusters; mostly because they don't exist. Sorry about that  :(. I am still on pre-Fusion designs on those simply because they just work - with some minor board-related tweaks pretty much like they were designed originally. In theory, cut a few holes for the resistor and connector and you're done. However, once my home internet connection is restored I'll see if I can upload at least those. I have bigger fish to fry right now so don't expect me to make the transition to Fusion any time soon
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2020, 03:32:59 by ironfox »

Offline slueth

  • Posts: 577
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #822 on: Thu, 27 February 2020, 03:44:17 »
I am planning to use your stl and pcb designs, it seems like a more tidy revision with the pcbs. Can't wait for the thumbs.  :thumb:

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #823 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 02:03:30 »
Okies, thumb STLs are now up at
https://github.com/IronFox/lalboard/tree/master/stls/ironfox%20cluster2 (left/right thumb.stl)
If you need them in Fusion, you'll have to reverse-engineer them yourself (shouldn't be too hard, done it with the regular cluster).
Safe for the screws, the geometries are perfectly symmetrical. The board layouts underneath compensate this. I found it makes cluster design easier if you only have to replace the screw sections.

...right, that actually means you cannot just use the original STLs with extra holes for the boards I designed. Totally forgot about that. Anyho, this should work. Lemme know if, for whatever reason, it does not, and I'll look into it.


Also, a reminder: I used the connectors on central board and both cluster board identically. Meaning, the ground, power, and control lines are always on the same pin if you look at the connectors from the same side. This, in turn, means you have to cross the wires from one end to the other. The left pin on the one plug connects to the left pin on the opposing plug and so forth. This makes the cables somewhat less comfortable to assemble and matching pre-assembled cables probably do not exist, but I decided not to change board layout just for the sake of easier cable management. Btw, you can wrap the individual cluster cable bundles up in 3mm (or smaller) diameter self-closing wire hoses just fine. I'm currently experimenting with putting two cluster cables into the same hose as clusters are so close to one another. If you separate the cluster-exits, you might even be able to wrap all cables up in a single hose.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 February 2020, 08:06:32 by ironfox »

Offline slueth

  • Posts: 577
Hmm, having some problems with printing some of the parts, I might have to tweak the designs to reduce part complexity, since i don't need as much modularity

Offline HeuristicBishop

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: New York
Hmm, having some problems with printing some of the parts, I might have to tweak the designs to reduce part complexity, since i don't need as much modularity
Yeah thereís a fair amount of tuning required to get it working with different printers. Iíve had luck simply scaling everything up a couple percent in the slicer.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Yeah, that's pretty expected. I think you may want to keep as much adjustability as possible though. It's surprisingly difficult to get things placed *just right*. Just a mm or a couple of degrees of difference in positioning of any of the components makes a surprisingly large difference in how it feels.

It's to the point where I really don't want to move anything (like picking up the hand rest to get at the cpu tray), because I know it will be a pain getting it back in exactly the right location and angle again.

Now that I've been using mine for over a year, I'm comfortable that I've got all the cluster positions and angles dialed in to where I want them, I'm working on a static base that mimics my existing positioning. The static base doesn't need the little twiddley ballscrews or any of that, so it's significantly easier to print... but you really need to be able to find the right positioning with the high-adjustability clusters first.

It's a bit of a pain getting the static base right though. It's mostly a matter of some careful measurements, and a lot of eyeballing the relative positioning of things. And definitely some trial and error. I just started printing the fourth iteration of the base -- for just one side.

Offline thecheatscalc

  • Posts: 1
Hey,

so I've been reading through the posts here and I noticed a few things about the key cluster designs that I was wondering about:

1- Why does each N/S/E/W switch have two magnets for the latching? It seems like you could use a steel washer around the center post to achieve the same effect with the benefit that you don't have to worry about polarity of the magnets as much.

2- Why did you choose to create an optical switch instead of using an off the shelf switch like: https://www.jameco.com/z/IRLA075-Siemens-Corporation-Photointerupter-IR-3mm-Gap-Tab-PC-Mount_2078282.html , it seems like these might be easier/faster to assemble, although about the same price.

This is a really neat project and I love the aesthetic of it!

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
1- Why does each N/S/E/W switch have two magnets for the latching? It seems like you could use a steel washer around the center post to achieve the same effect with the benefit that you don't have to worry about polarity of the magnets as much.

Mostly for simplicity/space/obviousness. I know the datahand (and dodohand) uses a small strip of metal in the base for each key, but it seemed much simpler to me to just use another magnet. It's already a part of the BOM, and it's pretty simple to design something to hold a magnet - just an appropriate sized hole :).

Also, with a single piece of metal, it's more likely that the magnets will interfere/interact with each other, since each magnet will induce some magnetism in the shared piece of metal. There's theoretically some of that happening with the 2-magnets-per-key system, since all of the magnets are interacting with each other, of course. But the field strength of these tiny magnets falls off very quickly in air -- I'm not sure how quickly it would fall off in a ferrous material.

2- Why did you choose to create an optical switch instead of using an off the shelf switch like: https://www.jameco.com/z/IRLA075-Siemens-Corporation-Photointerupter-IR-3mm-Gap-Tab-PC-Mount_2078282.html , it seems like these might be easier/faster to assemble, although about the same price.

For one, I wasn't really aware of them :)

But looking at them now, it looks like they're actually a fair bit more expensive. $.90 for a single key, vs. $.30 for a single key. So $45 total for an entire keyboard's worth, vs. $15 total using discrete LEDs and phototransistors.

This is a really neat project and I love the aesthetic of it!

Thanks! I've been working on a non-adjustable static base for it too, which I think looks better than the big metal plate. And it's definitely sturdier :). But it's heavily personalized for my specific cluster/handrest positioning, based on how I had the highly adjustable version set up.

I can't imagine trying to start with a static base like this, it would require waaaay too many iterations to get the positioning right for your hand. Even with an initial setup to go off of (taking some measurements and with some amount of eyeballing it), I think I probably did at least 5 iterations of the base per hand. I find getting the positioning *just right* to be very finicky :).

The big downside with the highly adjustable version is that... well it's highly adjustable :D. If you accidentally bump something out of place, or you need to take off one of the clusters or the handrest for some reason, it's a bit of a pain getting it back to just the way you had it.

240726-0

240728-1



Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, I found a better solution for the magnet for the center key. Previously, I had heated them up in order to partially demagnetize them to reduce the key force. But I found a supplier of N50 1mm cube magnets, which feel just about perfect as-is. So the N42 1/16" cube in the base, and the N50 1mm cube in the central key itself. The only downside is those 1mm magnets are freakin' expensive. Almost $20 shipped for the minimum order of 20 of them. About 10x as expensive on a per-magnet basis as the 1/16" ones. But trying to partially demagnetize the 1/16" ones with a cheap toaster oven is a bit hit-or-miss, and is definitely annoying. Of course, it would be much easier/more consistent if you had something like a soldering oven with good temperature control or similar.

I had to reduce the key travel of the center key by about .5mm too, by raising the magnet in the key stem, or it wasn't quite enough to raise the key back up at the bottom of its travel and it would get stuck down.

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Well, after weeks of trial and error, reprinting keys, reprogramming the layout, and, well, learning how to type on this damn thing (still slow), it seems I am finally making some progress. I am now writing this text on the working keyboard.
241638-0
Still have plenty of things to improve but until I know which problems are mechanical and which just me not having enough muscle memory, I am just gonna use it and see where it goes. Despite the absolute craziness, the finger rests seem to work but the soft keys mean I make a lot of mistakes, simply by pressing keys accidentally. Getting better though.
At any rate, I'll post some more updates when I get back to the building stage.
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2020, 03:30:29 by ironfox »

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
fwiw, It's been many years since I learned on the datahand, but the muscle memory from typing on a normal keyboard mostly transferred. Except for things like the diagonal keys, which obviously have to be remapped, and all of the extra stuff - function keys, cursor control, numbers and symbols, etc. But the muscle memory of typing basic letters was there.

There really shouldn't be any problems with accidental key presses - other than "mapping" errors. e.g. forgetting which key is which, and intentionally pressing the wrong button, vs. trying to press one button and accidentally pressing another.

Do you have a picture with your hand in-place? I'd be curious to see your hand placement/form. It's hard to tell just from the pics, but it seems like it would be a somewhat different hand/finger placement.

They definitely look awesome though :)

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
fwiw, It's been many years since I learned on the datahand, but the muscle memory from typing on a normal keyboard mostly transferred. Except for things like the diagonal keys, which obviously have to be remapped, and all of the extra stuff - function keys, cursor control, numbers and symbols, etc. But the muscle memory of typing basic letters was there.

There really shouldn't be any problems with accidental key presses - other than "mapping" errors. e.g. forgetting which key is which, and intentionally pressing the wrong button, vs. trying to press one button and accidentally pressing another.

Do you have a picture with your hand in-place? I'd be curious to see your hand placement/form. It's hard to tell just from the pics, but it seems like it would be a somewhat different hand/finger placement.

They definitely look awesome though :)

Thx  :)

I assume, though, you also learned to keep your other fingers still when pressing one key.
For instance when I press the right center middle key, I sometimes also press the right center ring key.
Or pressing any left/right key, I often also press one of the thumb keys or neighboring keys of the same direction.
Having my hand in a slightly different position may make this more or less likely.
Despite the keys and hand rests being somewhat stationary, I noticed my fingers are not always in the same position.
particularly my right hand fingers may either relax and stretch out or curl together more, but it can be as simple as the wrist angle not being as it was before cause I moved the thing. As a consequence some or the other key may end up being closer at one time or the other.
The worst thing I can do is start to move the components around then. Best case scenario, I end up where I started after a while...
I think part of this is finger training, but it may well be magnified by the finger rests.
Of course part of the problem may well be that my keys are super low resistance to press; even the thumb keys are much weaker than originally.
The tremor in my fingers does also not exactly help although that is getting better. It's only there if a finger needs to move (hence the finger rests). I think my brain just needs to learn that typing+tremor=bad :D
Its surprising that it actually can suppress it to some degree.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Hmm, yeah. Comparing your photo vs the 3rd one at https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard/wiki/Images, that looks pretty similar.


Looking at the first pic you posted:



Those key wells look super deep. The side keys should really only come up enough that you can just "grab onto" them with the tip of your finger. When typing, my fingers tend to hover just a little bit above the central keys. And when pressing a side key, the other fingers do tend to move a bit as well, but they're raised up a bit and pass over the side key.

e.g. here is my left hand pressing the right button on the third finger (with the back keys removed for clarity).

241676-1
241678-2

And a video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/RGrwpQCiHkPVrRt5A



Having my hand in a slightly different position may make this more or less likely.
Despite the keys and hand rests being somewhat stationary, I noticed my fingers are not always in the same position.
particularly my right hand fingers may either relax and stretch out or curl together more, but it can be as simple as the wrist angle not being as it was before cause I moved the thing.

Yes! I completely agree. The adjustable nature of it is completely necessary to start off with, while you're trying to figure out the best placement of everything, but it's super annoying later, when you accidentally move something, or have to take off the hand rest to get at the CPU or something, and then can't get it back exactly right, and it just feels a bit off. That's why I eventually transferred to the static base.




« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2020, 13:42:37 by JesusFreke »

Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Those key wells look super deep. The side keys should really only come up enough that you can just "grab onto" them with the tip of your finger. When typing, my fingers tend to hover just a little bit above the central keys. And when pressing a side key, the other fingers do tend to move a bit as well, but they're raised up a bit and pass over the side key.

Yep, I started off from your designs but gradually altered them to where they are now. I noticed early on that required travel distance is proportional to involuntary finger movement. Basically, the further a finger has to move, the further some other finger will move along and may end up pressing keys anyway. Usually it's the immediate neighbor finger that mimics the motion. I think it's just lack of training since it keeps getting better. But since longer travel also means stronger tremor, I did the opposite and reduced travel by making the wells deeper. In my case at least it seems to have a noticeable positive effect but time will tell.

Btw, I noticed in the code that there is supposed to be a caps lock setting (dd = double down?) but I can't trigger that for some reason.
Also, is there an easy way to have a key both press a particular key and temporarily switch to a different map?
I remapped the ctrl key to switch to a map that has all the regular characters but with a ctrl modifier attached. That way, while unable to press combos like ctrl+f7, I always have common keys like ctrl+s available regardless of current mode. But I had to find some wonky double key combo to ctrl+click on stuff...

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
The double-down thing is for the original datahand. The lalboard doesn't have anything for that :)

I still need to publish that though! I had done some work to clean it up, but I mostly just need to go through the process at work to get the okay to publish it.

You can look at the mapping for the left "mode" key in the original source I shared with you. (see, e.g. "normal_hold_key_map"). It basically makes the left mode key double as a key modifier, so you can map mode+<key> to something like ctrl+x or whatever. I have shortcuts for cut/copy/paste, for easy left-hand-only access while mousing with my right hand. You should be able to add ctrl+s or whatever else you need. And that will free up the ctrl key to act as normal. But if you want to stick with mapping the ctrl key, I can see how hard it would be to add some support for something like that.

I'm not sure a deep well is the way to go, but you obviously have a lot more context on what you need :)

I forget, did you end up using microswitches, or are you still using magnets + phototransistors/leds?

« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2020, 16:29:54 by JesusFreke »

Offline gbjk

  • Posts: 8
I assume, though, you also learned to keep your other fingers still when pressing one key.
For instance when I press the right center middle key, I sometimes also press the right center ring key.
Or pressing any left/right key, I often also press one of the thumb keys or neighboring keys of the same direction.
Having my hand in a slightly different position may make this more or less likely.
Despite the keys and hand rests being somewhat stationary, I noticed my fingers are not always in the same position.
particularly my right hand fingers may either relax and stretch out or curl together more, but it can be as simple as the wrist angle not being as it was before cause I moved the thing. As a consequence some or the other key may end up being closer at one time or the other.

Yes. Effectively you'll learn to be a lot more sensitive with your fingers, and move them far more individually.
It took me about 6 months of daily use to become completely natural with it and surpass my previous typing speed.

I've now been using it for just over 10 years.

One thing to note for everyone trying to reproduce this:
I abandoned palm rests about 5 years ago, approximately.

I think they're necessary whilst training in order to keep the palm in one position whilst learning to type, but once you've retrained fully,
they're a hinderance and it's better to either gently rest your palms on something solid, or keep your entire hand suspended above the keyboard.
I say hinderance because I think it's better for alignment and posture to let your hand fit freely to match your elbow position,
rather than trying to completely lock down the palm position each time.

Here's a link to how I normally type on it, but with the laplander on my lap: https://photos.app.goo.gl/DtW6J6TpsXFbiWy9A
I wouldn't recommend typing with one on the desk, ergonomically, personally.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 64
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #837 on: Wed, 26 August 2020, 04:35:09 »
I finally got around to taking a video of me typing on the lalboard, to give an idea of the typing motions. It's definitely a bit weird seeing myself type like that :)


It's probably worth noting that I don't usually have the 2 sides facing inward that much. That was just the best angle I could find for the camera to see all the fingers.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 August 2020, 06:02:22 by JesusFreke »

Offline wolfv

  • Posts: 253
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #838 on: Wed, 26 August 2020, 05:42:28 »
Wow!  That is impressive. :thumb: