Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 125915 times)

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Offline mkawa

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The Living 3D Printing Thread
« on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 12:12:46 »
ATTENTION NETIZENS

this is now a thread ALL ABOUT 3D PRINTING


MEMBERPRINTERSWILL PRINT FOR YOU?
epicepee kessel mini
vvprostock delta (from kit)no
damorgueREDACTEDNO TITANIUM FOR YOU
CPTBadassREDACTEDNO DMLS, ABS, PLA, NYLON, STEEL, ALUMINUM, TITANIUM, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. :|
__red__unknownNO (idea)
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 August 2014, 12:01:12 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline noxwood

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Re: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 09 May 2013, 23:49:38 »
So you're specifically looking for dual-extrusion? Are you willing to tinker with the build, or do you want it ready out of the box?

Unfortunately I can only help with the hardware stuff, not quite familiar with the different slicing softwares etc. The reprap forums should be great for that, though.

Offline mkawa

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Re: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 09:10:31 »
haven't decided how much tinkering would be appropriate. total DIY is going to take too long to ramp up, so repraps (the prusa iX, basically) is almost certainly out of the question.

MBI r2x is a definite candidate. it looks like it can make OK prints OOTB but it needs a fair amount of hacking (more stable bed, better loaders and extruders, some other basic stuff) to really print high quality models quickly. one huge upside though is the large user community and amount of open source compatibility.

cubex 2-head is also looking like a definite candidate. it's not clear that the third head really gets you much other than a larger price. it seems like a better turnkey solution, but the software is more proprietary etc.

there are tradeoffs everywhere, basically.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 11:01:50 »
just noting that any experience reports, from professional level sintered down to lowest end FFM/FDM is welcome. (AHEM, DAMORGUE ;))

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Offline damorgue

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Re: RFC: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:02:40 »
I take it you want to buy one? Purpose is sort of important as a deciding factor.

The ones based on extrusion melts the plastic which means that they use thermoplastics. These are then not very resistant to heat after printing and usually have a large glass transition phase. This means that not only can they melt depending on their usage scenario, they will transition to their liquid stage well before reaching their melting temperature.

There are also thermosets, another category of polymers which don't melt in the same way, and are instead cured to make them hard. Typically they start out with a resin and then cure it with light. From what I have seen, 3D printers which use these offer far more exact and detailed prints than those with nozzles can accomplish.

They all differ in: maximum printable size, speed, tolerances, cost of material/print, cost of machine, possible geometry.
Yes, the geometries which are possible differ slightly as they handle overhang differently. Some can deal with it by placing the part to be printed in a certain rotation, but some shapes are just not possible with certain methods.

Offline mkawa

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Re: RFC: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:17:41 »
Well, might as well make it public: I am buying one for usage by the greater geekhack community so that we have a 3d printing resource that is significantly cheaper than shapeways. usage will be big stuff like keyboard chassis and small stuff like extremely complex keycaps.

As I stated elsewhere we will also be opening a sister site to geekhack -- gearhack which will focus on wheeled transport, and there are many applications there, ducting, casing (lithium iron phosphate batteries are becoming my second serious project other than the ssk..).

certainly for keyboard usage we have no temperature issues. for car usage, abs tends to have enough heat resistance in MOST cases, polycarb is used sometimes in extreme cases or vinyl/TPU. In very extremely cases we'll have no choice but to go with eg shapeways' polyamide.


----


The problem with the other FDM printers you're mentioning is that buy-in is far greater than our budget, and the print accuracy is above what we need to bootstrap printing for the community. keyboard chassis can _almost_ be made with laser cutting only. (obviously we've seen some issues with this, particularly with metals). BUT only fairly boring designs can be made with laser cutting (you have the discretization issue among others), and milling is a process that i think is actually inappropriate (with alu i think) for keyboard chassis.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:29:30 by mkawa »

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Offline damorgue

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Re: RFC: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:29:37 »
Quite a few prints are required to make one worth the investment when compared to buying a few prints from Materialise, Shapeways or similar, so increasing the usage to another field as you mention is probably a good idea.

I started to think that which I mentioned on polymer types wouldn't be relevant as I would have guessed at key caps or SSK revival case. Key caps want small parts with high accuracy in an abrasion resistant polymer. The other usage scenarios you mention will probably require larger parts with less accuracy in polymers which resist chemicals, vapor and temperature.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:31:52 by damorgue »

Offline mkawa

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Re: RFC: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 10 May 2013, 13:33:35 »
the way i posed the RFC is really by constraint of budget. we can only afford an FFM and a ABS/PLA printer right now with at most two heads. it will be "good enough" for a lot of the work we do here, and some other stuff which i'm working on via email until gearhack launches.

in the future hacking it up to do TPUs and other weird **** would be awesome, and/or raising enough to buy a serious FDM or SLS machine, but at the moment these are out of our price range. as you well know, the higher spec the machine the more expensive time costs for good reason. your machines for example are out of our price range to use for even small prints, must less buy (hah!)

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Offline mkawa

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Re: RFC: a call for folks who have operated extrusion head 3d printers
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 11 May 2013, 17:21:26 »
this is coming together. if you want to be involved, please play around with makerware and set it to the replicator 2x :D

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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 12 May 2013, 00:40:18 »
I just want to voice support for Mkawa and what you guys are doing. 3D printing is truly the direction to go; it will greatly reduce the need for lengthy group buys and not being able to do something if there is not MOQ/ causing the original leader of the group buy to buy more sets in order to meet MOQ.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 11:59:28 »
order is in. t-8 weeks to delivery.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 12:06:28 »
You....you're crazy Kawa.....And I like it  ;). Cannot WAIT to see what comes out of this
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 12:22:47 »
needs: programmers to help me make a faster skeinforge (translate it into a nicer typed language, basically)
           modelers to make stuff
           models that are well suited to 3d printing
           people who are willing to go bananas

as part of my actual work work, i will very likely be working on a gcode tolerance estimator and validator. a good benchmark suite and a clean gcode generator will be imperative.

otherwise, it's going to be a relatively high quality 3d printer whose services will be available to the community at much lower than market margin (which is anywhere between 5-10x and 20x). proceeds will be reinvested in the community (3d scanner, other tooling, etc.)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Tym

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 12:25:35 »
I have a little experience with 3D printing and can do basic stuff. If any one wants real nooby help feel free to ask. And I don't mind helping out in anyway I can
unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:16:27 »
Awesome idea.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 23:41:04 »
As Damorgue said, purpose plays a large part in which is best.

The Replicator 2 is a nice printer, it's certainly one of the more professional looking and the easiest to get up and running. You can certainly do much worse. Just beware the build area, I doubt it will handle much more than a GH60 case. I went with a Delta style system for that reason (the last of my parts arrive Thursday).

The biggest problem I see you face now is expectations.
Those who don't understand 3d printing tend to underestimate them, but those with some understanding of them, tend to greatly over estimate them. The claimed 100micron, due to the system, has to be done EXTREMELY slow and printing in general is slow to begin with.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 14 May 2013, 23:51:24 »
interesting interesting. i hadn't seen the delta systems, but there's very much a mill vs lathe thing going on here.

i don't know what your plans are regarding your printer, but we should do some same-model assembly tests and comparos to see how the two methods stack up. on the one hand, you have much bigger bounding box. otoh, your servos have to move things around that have variable mass over time and could potentially be pretty heavy.

regardless, lots of hacking to be done and stuff to make! joy!

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Offline dndlmx

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 00:51:36 »
Dear GH, print some cases with HHKB-like layout for the next GH60 batch. kthxbai.  ^-^

Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 00:54:34 »
if you build cad, the print will come

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 02:20:06 »
interesting interesting. i hadn't seen the delta systems, but there's very much a mill vs lathe thing going on here.

i don't know what your plans are regarding your printer, but we should do some same-model assembly tests and comparos to see how the two methods stack up. on the one hand, you have much bigger bounding box. otoh, your servos have to move things around that have variable mass over time and could potentially be pretty heavy.

I'm building a Rostock (not a Max), which uses an external feeder and moves mostly just the nozzle and a bit of plastic as opposed to the entire bed, and extruder, because of that, my mass to move around is actually a whole lot less. This comes at the expense of added noise, especially if you go cheap on the bearings and alignment rods (which are expensive).

Being newer (only about a year really), there really isn't anything quite like a Makerbot yet available in Delta style. The closest thing is the Rostock Max,but it's nowhere near the professional looks (and build quality) of the Makerbot. If GraberCars releases the Cerberus, that might be comparable, but I don't know when or if that will happen. It's just too new of a design for manufacturers to really jump on yet.

As for distances things move, motor speed and distance isn't really the problem on any of them and it only plays in when building something tall regardless. Speed/Accuracy is actually more a matter of inertia. The heavier and faster you go, the sloppier things get, every bit of slack, becomes more and more exaggerated, so a lightweight head, pays off more and more as speeds go up. Deltas inertia is so low, that some of the latest ones are using fishing line instead of belts or threaded rods to move the sliders.


I'm planning on doing a GH60/GH60+ case, maybe a tkl case, I also want to make plugs for SP caps that allow o-rings to be used. There is a lot of random stuff I want to make, nothing in particular though. I also want to print some PLA to help make molds for casting aluminum, but that is a ways off really (PLA evaporates at those temps, so you print it, toss it into sand, and pour your metal). I got into it partly to get into this while it's still new, but it's also just for a new toy/project.


As for comparisons, when setup properly a modern Delta will outperform a Cartesian (axis based) printer in speed and quality. It just takes a lot more effort to get there. Deltas are barely a year old, so it's still under heavy development and lacks the documentation (they even lacked good software until recently). I can't see anyone really faulting your choice, it's an established, solid system, and one of even fewer with dual color. It's kind of like buying Intel, it's a safe choice. I went Delta mostly for the build volume and I fell in love with watching them work. I also enjoy a challenge and so far, just getting the parts, has been a challenge. Shady sellers, bad parts lists... It's been a hassle and I have yet to assemble a single part, not to mention being about 40% over the designers estimated costs (I did add some improvements, but I also got some things cheap or free).


Regardless, the more of these we have available, the better off we are, and having two different styles available is even better since each style has it's pros and cons (your sealed chamber is a definite plus and you get some nice proprietary software).



Couple things...
I didn't know this until recently, but PLA needs to be kept extremely dry (no humidity!) or it will not print well. Apparently some Chinese manufacturers are not shipping it in sealed bags. So you need to watch where you get it from, and be prepared for storing it. ABS is fine out in the open, however dirty filament is always an issue (even straight from the factory). Many make sponge holders to clean it as it comes off the reel. Shop around, Makerbot plastic is EXPENSIVE, I paid $28 shipped (from the US) for what they charge $48 plus shipping for (3d printer store prices vary greatly!).

Due to the cost of Kapton tape, you will probably want to invest in a glass plate. Glass tends to hold PLA and ABS, but you need a certain type of glass. Otherwise it can break from the heat. If not, you will be buying lots of Kapton tape and blue masking tape (for PLA). Glass and hairspray is a better solution (Aqua Net is the recommended one I think).

Another thing you may want to look into soon is a Lyman Filament Extruder, these let you recycle plastic or buy plastic in bulk for half the price. Considering your plan, you could go through a lot of waste and this would recoup a lot of expense. At $30-$50 per Kilo of filament, it won't take long to recoup costs on one.

There is now wood grained (pretty impressive stuff actually) and soft/silicone style filament available. There is also plans available for making a Sharpie holder that colors the filament before you melt it. This isn't as bright as colored filament,  red Sharpies on white tends to create pink, but works to alter color slightly. The results are better than you might expect.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 08:09:57 »
1) the advantage of the alum plate with the MBI r2x is that the plate is cheap. if it scratches (and they use teflon not kapton) or warps, you just buy a new one at the tune of 75$. building a glass surface plate is much easier said than done, especially if you want to heat it (ie, you can't heat a glass plate uniformly to reasonable temps without risking cracking etc.

2) all polymer filaments need to be kept dry. build a dry box. i will be documenting my dry box build here. maybe we can split the cost of a huge amount of bulk dessicant? on second thought, let's definitely do this. if you run your printer indoors (and you should to avoid rapid cooling and weird air movement, you will also need a serious odor remover along the lines of my solder fume extractor, but with better static pressure performance (ie, ****tons more charcoal). again, i think we can split some costs here.

3) looking at different options for DIY filament. for now, i'm sticking with MBI because the costs still work out to be extremely good and they can provide the necessary tolerances.

4) did not know about the filament dying. we are definitely going to need a living 3d printing thread to document a lot of this stuff as we find it. a lot of what i will be focusing on though is the software toolchain, understanding it deeply, rewriting large parts of it and then implementing an experimental framework for work reasons.

so damn excited!!
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 May 2013, 08:12:05 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 11:09:13 »
needs: programmers to help me make a faster skeinforge (translate it into a nicer typed language, basically)
           modelers to make stuff
           models that are well suited to 3d printing
           people who are willing to go bananas

If there comes a need, I can help with circuits and embedded programming.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 14:56:05 »
Just don't print any guns, mkawa.  :))
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:02:11 »
that was the first thing boost asked for

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Offline metalliqaz

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:30:30 »
Why 3D print a crappy-ass gun when you can go to Cabela's and buy an heirloom piece for a few hundred bucks more?

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:31:56 »
I counter your argument with a "Why not?"

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:36:22 »
This is GeekHack, we do stuff just for the "Why not" factor :P

Seriously though, I'd like to propose a project for this printer. MX-to-Alps adapters so I don't have to hunt for caps so hard for my Alps board!
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:39:34 »
hope you're planning on putting SA profile caps on those :))

yah, it should be able to pump those out though.

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Offline SmallFry

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:45:07 »
I seem to recall Mr. Interface's 3D ALPS to MX adapters breaking.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 15 May 2013, 21:26:38 »
Why 3D print a crappy-ass gun when you can go to Cabela's and buy an heirloom piece for a few hundred bucks more?
More?

Considering the price of a 3d printer, the real gun is cheaper, mine is up to $700 in parts (almost $100 in nuts and bolts alone!), and the one Mkawa is getting is about $3000. You still need about $30 in plastic as well.

I don't know typical gun prices, but I'm sure $700 would get you one (used maybe?), and $3000 certainly would.

If you plan on having someone make it for you... Forget it, you need a firearms manufacturers license to do that.


I counter your argument with a "Why not?"
Because it could bring the Justice Department to your door. Because it could blow up in your face the first time you shoot it. Hobby 3d printers aren't always known for the strength of the finished item. Particularly if you don't get the settings right, your plastic got exposed to moisture, or you just got cheap filament.

Mostly, because it was meant as a technological demonstrator. It wasn't meant to really be used, it was meant to show off 3d printing as well as scare gun manufacturers and anti-gun nuts alike. You have to admit, it's impressive when you can anger both gun lobbyists and anti-gun lobbyists equally, and at the same time.

hope you're planning on putting SA profile caps on those :))

yah, it should be able to pump those out though.

You would probably be disappointing with 3d printed keycaps. Not only are they not smooth, but the last one I saw who tried, the stem broke.

As for pumping them out... a Keycap with a decent finish, just a guess, but at least 5 minutes each. You also need another 5-15 minutes to heat up the bed and nozzle before you can even start and similar cooldown before removing it. A full keyset, even doing several at once, could easily take all day.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 May 2013, 21:29:45 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 08:40:31 »
talked to a guy with a nice thick southern accent about dry boxes; found the perfect shell: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/search.aspx?search=75063&page=1

lolzzzzz

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Offline Krogenar

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:25:48 »
that was the first thing boost asked for

(emails mkawa 3d models for handcuff keys)
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Offline Tym

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:31:38 »
that was the first thing boost asked for

(emails mkawa 3d models for handcuff keys)

Anyone see the Big Bang Theory where they bought a 3d printer? I hope no-one thinks about doing what Howard nearly did. Also we need plastic copies of Glissbro and CPTbadass
unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:34:29 »
Whoa whoa whoa, why do we want plastic forms of me Tym?  :eek:
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Offline Tym

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:35:30 »
Whoa whoa whoa, why do we want plastic forms of me Tym?  :eek:

I mean of your avatars 0.0 Slow down there! :P

unless they have some unforeseeable downside (like they're actually made of cream cheese cunningly disguised as ABS)


Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:42:55 »
John Malkovich was making plastic guns long before 3D printers were around.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #36 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:44:20 »
Whoa whoa whoa, why do we want plastic forms of me Tym?  :eek:

I mean of your avatars 0.0 Slow down there! :P

Of my avatar? Oh man, I'd totally get behind that ^__^
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Offline JPG

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #37 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 09:52:01 »
needs: programmers to help me make a faster skeinforge (translate it into a nicer typed language, basically)
           modelers to make stuff
           models that are well suited to 3d printing
           people who are willing to go bananas

as part of my actual work work, i will very likely be working on a gcode tolerance estimator and validator. a good benchmark suite and a clean gcode generator will be imperative.

otherwise, it's going to be a relatively high quality 3d printer whose services will be available to the community at much lower than market margin (which is anywhere between 5-10x and 20x). proceeds will be reinvested in the community (3d scanner, other tooling, etc.)

What type of programming skill do you need? Which language you want to use? What's your time frame target?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 12:23:51 »
a couple possibilities: 1) rewrite skeinforge in a highly disciplined dialect of C. use Clang for enlightened compilation and analyze the llvm. 2) rewrite skeinforge in a Java 4. Use wala for enlightened compilation and analyze the bytecode. 3) rewrite skeinforge in haskell or ocaml (ie, some ML dialect). hack up ghc or ocamlc (I have extensive experience in the latter, and access to enough experience to get going in the former) to do enlightened compilation. analyze the AST (afaik the lowest IL in both compilers is just an AST).

advantages and disadvantages to all options. will have to think on this one. If you're a phd applicant, I encourage you to apply to either UCI or UCLA's (latter is iffy) PL program to participate in this. If you do though, you need to let me know first because I will have to write the grant to fund you ;). Otherwise, you're welcome to pop in on the github anytime as we work. :)

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Offline JPG

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 16 May 2013, 20:02:41 »
a couple possibilities: 1) rewrite skeinforge in a highly disciplined dialect of C. use Clang for enlightened compilation and analyze the llvm. 2) rewrite skeinforge in a Java 4. Use wala for enlightened compilation and analyze the bytecode. 3) rewrite skeinforge in haskell or ocaml (ie, some ML dialect). hack up ghc or ocamlc (I have extensive experience in the latter, and access to enough experience to get going in the former) to do enlightened compilation. analyze the AST (afaik the lowest IL in both compilers is just an AST).

advantages and disadvantages to all options. will have to think on this one. If you're a phd applicant, I encourage you to apply to either UCI or UCLA's (latter is iffy) PL program to participate in this. If you do though, you need to let me know first because I will have to write the grant to fund you ;). Otherwise, you're welcome to pop in on the github anytime as we work. :)

My java skills are far and I am not into compilation, but well, even if I can't do much on this project I'll follow it because it's very interesting and who knows, maybe I'll be able to give so help at some point!
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 07:33:38 »
You know, for us non-Americans with no 'democratic' access to guns, you people have 'freedom' aplenty thanks to the NRA.

Every dictator hates the idea that his slaves could free themselves anytime.

That said, America is so awash in guns, sometimes foreigners think that every grandpa and grandma is toting as well. Duh, why doesn't NRA offer delivery service like pizza hut and vending machines for ammo? Guns are more American than Apple Pie, the Uncle Sam symbol, the Star Spangled 50-star banner and the White House (guns predate all of them)!

Why 3D print a crappy-ass gun when you can go to Cabela's and buy an heirloom piece for a few hundred bucks more?
More?

Considering the price of a 3d printer, the real gun is cheaper, mine is up to $700 in parts (almost $100 in nuts and bolts alone!), and the one Mkawa is getting is about $3000. You still need about $30 in plastic as well.

I don't know typical gun prices, but I'm sure $700 would get you one (used maybe?), and $3000 certainly would.

If you plan on having someone make it for you... Forget it, you need a firearms manufacturers license to do that.


I counter your argument with a "Why not?"
Because it could bring the Justice Department to your door. Because it could blow up in your face the first time you shoot it. Hobby 3d printers aren't always known for the strength of the finished item. Particularly if you don't get the settings right, your plastic got exposed to moisture, or you just got cheap filament.

Mostly, because it was meant as a technological demonstrator. It wasn't meant to really be used, it was meant to show off 3d printing as well as scare gun manufacturers and anti-gun nuts alike. You have to admit, it's impressive when you can anger both gun lobbyists and anti-gun lobbyists equally, and at the same time.

hope you're planning on putting SA profile caps on those :))

yah, it should be able to pump those out though.

You would probably be disappointing with 3d printed keycaps. Not only are they not smooth, but the last one I saw who tried, the stem broke.

As for pumping them out... a Keycap with a decent finish, just a guess, but at least 5 minutes each. You also need another 5-15 minutes to heat up the bed and nozzle before you can even start and similar cooldown before removing it. A full keyset, even doing several at once, could easily take all day.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 07:44:09 »
you can make a plate full of adapters/keycaps in a single run of the printer

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Offline E TwentyNine

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 09:51:46 »
needs: programmers to help me make a faster skeinforge (translate it into a nicer typed language, basically)
           modelers to make stuff
           models that are well suited to 3d printing
           people who are willing to go bananas

as part of my actual work work, i will very likely be working on a gcode tolerance estimator and validator. a good benchmark suite and a clean gcode generator will be imperative.

otherwise, it's going to be a relatively high quality 3d printer whose services will be available to the community at much lower than market margin (which is anywhere between 5-10x and 20x). proceeds will be reinvested in the community (3d scanner, other tooling, etc.)

What's the current deficiency with skeinforge?   How slow is slow?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 12:06:47 »
a two-color skeinforge print at 100u did not terminate over the course of a day on my 4ghz i7 in makerware. this was for a 2"x2" cube

the other issue is that python is ridiculously hard to analyze, so the rewrite would be for work reasons as well.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 17:09:36 »
you can make a plate full of adapters/keycaps in a single run of the printer
If they fit on the build surface, but you are still looking at 10 hours or more, especially with decent quality.
On a 10+ hour run, that leaves a lot of time for an error to sneak in and if it does, it will wreck all of them.



The last parts arrived today! Woohoo!
Now I just have about 16 hours of hand fitting 200 parts together with limited instructions. LOL
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 May 2013, 17:11:20 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline lazerpointer

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 18:11:52 »
As Damorgue said, purpose plays a large part in which is best.

The Replicator 2 is a nice printer, it's certainly one of the more professional looking and the easiest to get up and running. You can certainly do much worse. Just beware the build area, I doubt it will handle much more than a GH60 case. I went with a Delta style system for that reason (the last of my parts arrive Thursday).

The biggest problem I see you face now is expectations.
Those who don't understand 3d printing tend to underestimate them, but those with some understanding of them, tend to greatly over estimate them. The claimed 100micron, due to the system, has to be done EXTREMELY slow and printing in general is slow to begin with.

I have a dream that one day we can live in a nation, where all the Cherry caps can get along with all the ALPS boards...

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/cherry-to-alps-adapters-t4934.html


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« Last Edit: Fri, 17 May 2013, 18:15:57 by lazerpointer »
i type, therefore i geekhack

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 18:20:52 »
Flip I suggested this earlier too :D
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 17 May 2013, 19:57:40 »
these should be printed undersized on a coarse setting on their side in PLA. to avoid rafts or other supports, the cherry cruciform will be highly tapered orthogonally to the way that MrInt has tapered his, and the alps end should taper and have dimples chunked out as it hits the bottom of the switch socket. this way, the adapter has all its sheer strength vertical to switch, and focused at the joint between the two cruciforms.

even injection molded in abs, you'd have trouble with that very naive design. if you were injection molding, you'd actually want a pretty soft TPU for this. on that note, injection tooling for this wouldn't be that expensive. if it weren't for the height issue, you'd be better off with universal MX cruciform caps (the alps socket is so bad regardless..). *shrug*
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 May 2013, 19:59:47 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 01:19:55 »
these should be printed undersized on a coarse setting on their side in PLA. to avoid rafts or other supports, the cherry cruciform will be highly tapered orthogonally to the way that MrInt has tapered his, and the alps end should taper and have dimples chunked out as it hits the bottom of the switch socket. this way, the adapter has all its sheer strength vertical to switch, and focused at the joint between the two cruciforms.


The reason for this, for those who aren't aware is that 3d printers have a "grain" similar to wood. The lines you often see on 3d prints actually run all the way through and are a weak point. Too low of heat and they will split with very little effort, but even with proper heat it's a weak spot, so you have to orient the design to account for this in situations where strength can be an issue.

Someone already tried something like this and it broke for that exact reason.



--------------------------------
5 hours of hand fitting plastic parts... My fingers are raw.
There's another 3 hours in woodwork as well.

And all I have is a massive pile of expensive parts (around 200!). LOL
Actually, all of the small parts are assembled into modular sections just waiting to be quickly fastened together once I get the plywood frame supports finished tomorrow. After that, comes wiring.

The person I got my plastic parts from had a rather sloppy printer, making for a lot more work than I should have needed to do. One was even off enough that a screw split some of the plastic even after running a drill bit through it. It's long tedious work.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/Vortex case, hand milled case, custom feet, custom paint, Klaxxon key caps, lubed and o-ringed Jailhouse Blues made from vintage Cherry MX Blues, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, removable cord, sound dampened. Winkey blockoff plate | Magicforce 68 w/Outemu Blues |KBT Race S L.E. w/Ergo-Clears, custom WASD keyset | Das Pro w/browns (Costar model) | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 18 May 2013, 02:16:35 »
once the r2x comes in, we can reprint a some of your more egregious parts. i would also consider redoing the plywood eventually with heavier material. the light weight of the outer frames of the diy printers are a classic "bad thing". the error introduced by the movement of a head is inversely proportion (to some reciprocal function) of the weight of the frame. this is why bridgeport mills weigh several tons.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.