Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 145757 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #300 on: Sun, 07 July 2013, 14:31:05 »
There are several challenges with keycaps actually.

1. As Damorgue said, strength. Keys are injection molded under high pressure, making the plastic much more dense.
2. Surface finish, again as Damorgue said, you can do some smoothing, but these are digital printers and most people print with layer heights closer to .2mm, which sounds small, but still leaves quite visible lines showing each level. It's kind of like building with bricks, one level at a time rather than carving and sanding.
3. While you can use a lower layer height and smaller nozzle, they increase print time drastically. A full keyset at normal settings would take much of a day as it is.
4. Color, most people only have the ability to print one color (I only need another motor to do dual and plan on getting one).
5. Shape is a big one... remember, everything is built from the ground up, this presents some challenges since keys are hollow. If you print them right side up, the center stem would either be too long, or the sides a bit short. If you do it upside down, you either will make a flat key, or your surface finish will be horrible.

Basically you can do it, but most people would be unhappy with them with current hobby level printers. It could be done quite well with STL (Stereolithography), which uses a laser and a special polyurethane, I even considered building one, and while cheap to make the printer, your prints are all a dull yellowish color and a keyset would probably run you a few hundred dollars in fluid. It's about 15x more expensive than printing with ABS as you need special chemicals.

SLS (laser sintering) has been used to make keys, and they offer a nice, though different surface finish and were made in metal, however, hobbyists are only just starting to find ways to do those cheap. The lasers alone are typically somewhere around $30k. Again, as with most 3d printing, you only get one color.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #301 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 11:26:04 »
pretty happy with how this one came out:


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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #302 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 11:54:06 »
Looking sharp there mkawa, literally. Although a rather simple part, performance such as flatness and small radii are showcased well. How did you print the coloured areas Where they added on top after when you had switched the filament and the part had cooled down or had you timed the colours in some way?

Edit: I believe suka over at DT (possibly at GH as well?) works for [SLS machine manufacturer]. I am not entirely sure but at least I think he has some sort of connection to them at least.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 July 2013, 03:10:13 by damorgue »

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #303 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 17:45:05 »
i printed a coarse setting print of the M with the natural parts of the left side (that's one solidworks part). we then did a very quick two color print of two of the slashes using the dual head extruder. while that was printing, we placed a third slash on the makerware plate, assigned it to one of the heads, aligned it to be exactly flush with the previously printed parts, and as soon as those parts finished, i immediately told the makerbot to reheat everything, we deleted the first two slashes in makerware, changed one of the filament rolls and printed the third slash before the first two had a chance to cool. as a result, all three slashes bonded to each other to make a single plastic part with only a very small gap where the makerbot started the second teal print of the third slash. this part was then press-fit into the left side of the M backpiece. there is no glue or slurry resin used to attach anything. it was just multiple carefully dimensioned prints and a filament quick-change.

maybe a link could be discreetly handed to suka for this thread? ;)

he is, like you, damorgue, probably NDA'd up, but anything he can share, again, like you, is gold for us hobbyists ;)
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 July 2013, 17:47:32 by mkawa »

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #304 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 18:55:03 »
Looks great, makes me miss my 3 series.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline suka

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #305 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 02:39:19 »
I have already been monitoring this thread since the beginning mainly because of personal interest in the technologies employed and the planned projects here. Although I do indeed posess some additional knowledge and experience in the field of SLS there is probably no overlap at all between my current field of work and the challenges presented herein, so I am afraid I cannot be of any technical help even with or without any NDA :-(
In my own (and also some other) threads I have always been an avid proponent of the advantages of laser sintering that I have experienced during my creations - fast prototyping results, accurate and durable parts and the possibility to obtain unique designs without any minimal order markups for a reasonable price. But as a tinkerer and hobbyist myself I absolutely love to see the 3D-printing alternatives gain traction and become affordable and known to a broader audience - under different circumstances I am sure I would already own one myself...
Until then all I may provide are the experiences I made in my various keyboard projects - so if you have any questions in regard to plates, caps or adaptors feel free to ask  :)

Keep up the good work (and moreso the detailed write-ups on your experiences!), really interesting stuff!

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #306 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 07:38:24 »
welcome suka!! damorgue is also NDAd up and mostly familiar with sintering. he just throws in his general engineering knowledge as we screw around. no one here is expected to be an expert in anything -- we're just having fun :D

again, welcome! please feel free to ask questions and offer whatever advice you can think of :)

also, if your NDA allows you to contribute CAD and/or print things in FFM, my printer is now available for general use ;)

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #307 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:30:37 »
I'm just going to float this out there. Today I learned that Plastic Splinters Suck. I was getting trained on the 3D printer and while handling the models, I managed to get two plastic splinters.

Edit: I was sitting at my desk for like 15 minutes digging them out with a knife. I think I've scared my co-workers. More incredibly interesting news about me at 11. :P
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:34:23 by CPTBadAss »
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Offline ITzNybble

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #308 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:34:38 »
I'm just going to float this out there. Today I learned that Plastic Splinters Suck. I was getting trained on the 3D printer and while handling the models, I managed to get two plastic splinters.

Are they worse than like a fiberglass splinter?
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #309 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:39:20 »
My experience with fiberglass splinters is that they break up and it's annoying to get ALL the bits out. At least the plastic splinter stayed together...
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #310 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:41:26 »
first aid protip: before you go digging into your skin with a knife to get a splinter out (or just to cut yourself -- hey, it's not my business) get a HOT lighter, butane preferably, and light the blade up. it will sterilize it. the lighter will leave some carbon on the blade edge. just leave that there. trying to get it off will contaminate the blade.

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #311 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 09:44:07 »
I hope hand sanitizer and hand soap work just as good as fire 'cause that's what I had.
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Offline ITzNybble

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #312 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 10:07:59 »
first aid protip: before you go digging into your skin with a knife to get a splinter out (or just to cut yourself -- hey, it's not my business) get a HOT lighter, butane preferably, and light the blade up. it will sterilize it. the lighter will leave some carbon on the blade edge. just leave that there. trying to get it off will contaminate the blade.

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Offline Tarzan

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #313 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 11:52:28 »
first aid protip: before you go digging into your skin with a knife to get a splinter out (or just to cut yourself -- hey, it's not my business) get a HOT lighter, butane preferably, and light the blade up. it will sterilize it. the lighter will leave some carbon on the blade edge. just leave that there. trying to get it off will contaminate the blade.

Plus this way you can tell people the resulting scar was your attempt at a jailhouse tattoo.

 :p

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #314 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 15:49:51 »
I hope hand sanitizer and hand soap work just as good as fire 'cause that's what I had.
they don't, you're screwed.

also, the buddy i printed the M logo for took this:



for a sense of scale. hah!

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Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #315 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 19:23:18 »
Possible: Yes. Suitable: No

The FDM printers of today will have troubles with getting a good enough  stem mount as well as create a nice surface. If you treat the parts after printing, for instance with acetone or sand them manually, then you can get a nice outer surface. I recon the stem fitting will remain a bit troublesome though, but probably possible. SLS and SLA are far better suited for printing parts with small details such as key caps.

I am looking forward to seeing some interesting cases and all kinds of projects come to fruiting because of these though.

I spent an hour or so tweaking a stem capable of FDM printing and this is what I came up with.



Using a raft, I've had a 100% success rate (Out of 10 caps or so). With the only finishing being squeezing a small screwdriver in each stem hole to widen them abit and if necessary shaving a little off the wider sides so it can slide in and out of the switch housing.

Obviously it's like you said, not 100% perfect but as long as you're gentle with them I don't see why they wouldn't be able to hold up :D

I attached the STL file for the basic cap I've been using to stick penises on and print

* cap.stl (29.05 kB - downloaded 80 times.)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #316 on: Tue, 16 July 2013, 09:17:41 »
no one's saying they can't print the stem, but you'll get much better repeatability casting the stem and printing the rest of the cap.

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Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #317 on: Tue, 23 July 2013, 21:38:46 »
For a "living" thread this is pretty dead.

cheggit this converter I made to make MX ALPS compatible

It works ok, I had to print it at like 90% the model size and SUPER SUPER SLOW, but it kinda works after a little post processing.


Offline meiosis

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #318 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 00:49:17 »
For a "living" thread this is pretty dead.

cheggit this converter I made to make MX ALPS compatible

It works ok, I had to print it at like 90% the model size and SUPER SUPER SLOW, but it kinda works after a little post processing.

Show Image


Quite smart indeed, perhaps try Mx to topre, I believe there would be an elevation issue between a design like that? (Keycaps raised a bit higher)?
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #319 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 03:00:02 »
For a "living" thread this is pretty dead.
Only diamonds are for ever ... and not even those ... I guess :)

My 3d-printed u-joints did last about 12 hours of printing before some noticeable slack developed. So I can confirm that they are a piece of ****.

I looked in more detail how Mini Kossel bed leveling works. It is measuring the bed Z-height at regular rectangular grid (currently it is 7x7). This gives error terms. The error term for a particular point in XY plane is computed using linear interpolation. So if your bed is badly distorted then your part will be distorted just the same. It is still good to define geometry somewhat correctly so that the interpolation error is not big. And with really bad geometry z-probe deployment/retract would not work too.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #320 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 07:20:02 »
For a "living" thread this is pretty dead.

cheggit this converter I made to make MX ALPS compatible

It works ok, I had to print it at like 90% the model size and SUPER SUPER SLOW, but it kinda works after a little post processing.

Show Image


I'm sure you've seen the thread over at DT but in case not similar project, although not currently active

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/cherry-to-alps-adapters-t4934.html

Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #321 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 07:35:52 »
I'm sure you've seen the thread over at DT but in case not similar project, although not currently active

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/cherry-to-alps-adapters-t4934.html

#inspiration #RIPMrInterface

Quite smart indeed, perhaps try Mx to topre, I believe there would be an elevation issue between a design like that? (Keycaps raised a bit higher)?

You're correct

« Last Edit: Wed, 24 July 2013, 07:37:48 by kmiller8 »

Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #322 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 09:12:53 »
Oh, put me down as willing to print. PM me ideas or .stl files and we can work out costs :)

Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #323 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:12:13 »
I made some converters along with mrinterface, but they were found to be too tall. It remains an option if we ever make a custom alps board, where we could make a deeper case which would enable us to use converters and MX caps. I am away from home, so can't really send it atm though, but it looks very similar to yours kmiller8.
« Last Edit: Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:14:33 by damorgue »

Offline kmiller8

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #324 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:59:02 »
I made some converters along with mrinterface, but they were found to be too tall. It remains an option if we ever make a custom alps board, where we could make a deeper case which would enable us to use converters and MX caps. I am away from home, so can't really send it atm though, but it looks very similar to yours kmiller8.

yeah, like I said above, I was inspired by MrInterface with the design, but trust me, I took all the measurements and drew up the model myself. Also there is definitely an increase in height, here's an example pic I took.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #325 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 21:14:53 »
A warning to those with deltas... When moving, or adjusting the head, if you have a glass bed, lower the head down first.

While the head will stay up under normal circumstances, when adjusting a belt, or being transported, the head can fall. I took a chunk out of my glass bed the other day. No head damage, and it's only like $15 to replace the glass, but... Ooops.  I'm not sure if it was during calibration (head crash), belt adjustment or while I was transporting it, but one of the times the head hit the glass it made a small crack and when I printed over it, the plastic pulled up the glass shard with it.


As for the thread, many living things have periods of dormancy, it doesn't mean they are dead.
I've been busy rebuilding much of my printer. I'm redoing  part of the frame, moving some electronics, adapting an auto-leveling system and designed a new extruder. Which so far the first version has worked great, just need some minor changes, it's self loading (unlike Airtrippers, which are iffy), can't bind up (nowhere for it to go), and tiny as heck. All of which I hope to have on in the next few days. Basically, it will be nearly an entirely new printer from just a couple weeks ago. I've been working on and designing dozens of new parts to go on, if it it isn't electronic, it's probably being replaced.


I'm also going to build a cabinet, I was just going to build a fume extractor, but after seeing this, I want something I can make nearly airtight and blow out an exhaust duct directed out a panel under a window.
« Last Edit: Wed, 24 July 2013, 21:19:53 by Leslieann »
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #326 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 23:36:06 »
i ordered some parts for my r2x and now i have to post the following mostly negative review. SIGH. x-posted to https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/makerbot which is a pretty cool group regardless of whether you have a makerbot or whatever else.

Quote from: me
Hi folks,

Relatively new rep2x owner here. I received my r2x in June-ish, and have been racking up the build hours since then. I swear I have had more fun with this in the last month than I had in the first 3 years of grad school (wait, those were terrible by any stretch.. sorry, I'll try to think of a better analogy as this review 'evolves').

So far, this review is unfortunately universally negative. Bottleworks delivered quite quickly considering these are parts machined, presumably, in the US, and I'm well aware of how expensive machine time in the US is. However, what I received were a) very roughly machined aluminum parts. In particular, the build plate base machining was clearly optimized for speed above all else. the arms were similar. there was no final fine finishing cut on any part and many parts have larger nicks and irregularities that show a general lack of respect for detail. I understand that the price of these parts is very low, but unfinished aluminum with very rough cuts is kind of the worst of all worlds. aluminum oxidizes in weird ways if you don't finish it, and with the HBP in particular, one needs to be quite careful about the flatness tolerances, as the use of an aluminum base plate means that you will have to deal with thermal expension, even if the very top layer of the build plate is borosilicate. for about the same price (when they have stock, which is another matter entirely), MBI's gravity cast alu plates are at least flattened to 0.3mm, and their injection molded ABS arms are precisely sized, even if they warp out into nowhere land after about 50 hours of build time. (they are cheap, fwiw!)

3 more points that i feel are necessary to warn people about before i end this bit of the review (but i will be installing at least some of the parts, so there will be updates! hooray!)

1) the bearings that are included at 10mm ID, 19mm OD LM10UU linear ball bearings with printed retaining rings. this would be all well and good if the r2x (and possibly the r2? i have no idea) used steel Z-stage support rods. however, they actually use 10mm ceramic coated alum aka feather shafts. everything i've read about feather shafts recommends using frelon sleeve bearings and not ball bearings. i have seen this many many times from every vendor of these rods. note that MBI uses sintered bronze bearings. while not frelon, they are definitely softer than steel balls. my understanding is that the deal here is that while the ceramic coating lowered coefficient of friction, it is not quite as hard as a steel rod (which are typically rockwell C60 or so), and if the 10-20-micron RMS ceramic coating wears off, all you have left is some pretty soft aluminum. in short, you're going to have a bad day. now, because he specifically cut the arms for LM10UUs, you can't use the MBI bearings, unlike carl's alucarrier. the MBI bearings are 15mm OD, which is a more common bearing size for 10mm IDs. to be fair, bottleworks' product description specifically states this, but it still took me by surprise when I took everything apart and started taking a closer look at all the MBI and bottleworks parts.

that said, these arms and retaining rings should fit a number of other vendors' frelon sleeves quite well. i've ordered what's in stock, but may just wait on lead time if i find a particular nice set that needs to actually be manufactured. fortunately, it seems that MOQs are pretty low in the bearing industry. in particular, SPD and QBC both have highly compatible parts in their catalogs.

2) i pretty firmly believe that the heater wattage on this kit should be upped. i tossed just the aluminum base with heater and unidentified insulation (corners are sealed with what looks like RTV silicone, mostly a black fiberglass looking weave). just measuring surface temperature on the alu base with an unrestricted 130w into the unit, it had a significantly hump at about 67C, and it was clearly struggling to get hotter than that. stick a borosilicate plate on top with a thermal conductivity about 2 orders of magnitude less than aluminum and you're going to have a bad day. also, despite the heater basically covering the bottom surface, i got an odd 5-ish C gradient from the center of the unit to the corners. mcmaster carries a silicone backed 270w 24v 6x9 unit that i may end up swapping in for this

3) THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT:

i have gotten zero post-sales support from bottleworks. worse, my questions were at first answered with highly defensive appeals to volume ("i have hundreds of kits out there <snip several paragraphs in which questions are not answered>|") then when i repeated the questions i got ("i'm not going to argue about this" when i didn't recall arguing about anything at all). finally, his ultimatum was that i must send the kit back to him and if they were sent back in the state they were sent, he would refund me because i was a 'hypochrondriac' of some kind due to my HBP measurements. i simply stated the conditions that the HBP base were tested under, and i got back, verbatim "ok kid". in short, not only should you expect no post-sales support, but if you do contact him, prepare to be berated and insulted at frighteningly short cycle times. in fact, i'm still receiving emails from him. his last email could easily be seen as a threat of some kind, as it involves him mentioning personal information of mine out of context and with no other content in the email. thankfully, i am an internationally published researcher, run geekhack.org, a 23k user webforum, and generally have zero fear of doxing, but there you go. if you order, don't email him after you get your parts. you're going to have a bad day.

so that's it for now. i will be using what parts i can salvage from the kit, hand finishing parts, etc. i had to disassemble my bot anyway to replace both heads (i cut one of my initial plate levelings too close early on scraping them pretty badly, and the heads were growing increasingly out of tolerance as i printed the crap out of them :D), and my initial horizontal Z gantry plate, which now says "makerbot" on the front (it's really really warped), so except for the vague threats from this vendor, i'm actually a pretty happy clam. hell, even his insults are better than grad school. also, to be fair, i leveled one shot at B about me being an actual engineer. it was in the heat of the moment, and i apologize to the fellow.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #327 on: Wed, 24 July 2013, 23:43:04 »
i like this part of that /. post best: "The emission rates were similar to those measured in previous studies of several other devices and indoor activities, including cooking on a gas or electric stove, burning scented candles, operating laser printers, or even burning a cigarette."

lol.

anyway, if i'm reading this right, there's not much we can really do about the UFPs but fully ventilate the area, or use a fairly effective fume hood that ejects to atmosphere. hepas don't go down to nm scale, and my cheap charcoal is basically useless unless the stuff is much larger and non-inert. your dryer vent idea is probably the best, leslieann. i'll probably just open the window more often during long prints. i have nowhere obvious to route air to without opening a window, so i might as well just open the window more often and point a box fan at it or something

alas, this is also morbidly funny because i was just arguing with someone about the ABS smell, and my position was that it couldn't possibly be vaporizing. d'oh!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #328 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 00:54:13 »
Yeah, I'm not entirely sold on the articles merits.  An electric stove? Seems a bit ridiculous, but I worry about how much crap I breath every day as it is (I don't have the best lungs to begin with). The part that worries me isn't just the particles, but chemicals that could be in some of that plastic, particularly the ABS, which is known not to even be good to breath the dust from while sanding.



I'm going to aim for a negative pressure system, sucking air from inside the room through the cracks, and venting out a panel I'll put under the window, which will be closed. While not perfect, this should suck out or at least seriously reduce not just the smell, but also the particles and it has to be better than the single fan I have blowing air in from an open window.



As for your review, it doesn't sound THAT bad, new technology and all, until you remember that this was a near $3000 printer you bought, from a company considered/claiming to be one of the premier personal 3d printer builders.  At which point, I just want to shake my head.  Sadly, I have run into far too many companies like that. They act all tough online, but act like they are still working from their garage and everyone is out to get them. I've had multi-million dollar D.O.D. suppliers act that way as well. I don't get it, it helps no one.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #329 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 01:16:02 »
that is a review of "bottleworks makerbot accessories", which is a company i won't bother linking here, NOT makerbot, who has been absolutely wonderful. today i called makerbot international and asked "what are the Z support rods made of and the support person literally had an answer in 5 minutes." i've quizzed them on hardness of their factory parts, materials, material properties and tolerances of all kinds of junk, and had hour long conversations with them on the economics of their Z gantry design.

tldr; makerbot international (now stratasys makerbot international i guess) is super awesome and makes an incredible little product with some small but annoying flaws but is more than happy to work with you to tweak everything they make.

bottleworks aka bc technologies sells replacement parts for the makerbot products and berates you and insults you if you ask questions after you pay him for them.

there is another fellow named carl who sells makerbot replacement parts (only a couple so far, he has tackled the far easier problems and does not claim to solve all of the makerbot problems; in fact he claims to solve none of them. he just wanted to print taulman nylon so he made the one part you need to make to do that). he is awesome. he is perfectly happy to chat about his products and other people's products. we started talking about mice for reasons i don't remember at all, and it led to me thinking very deeply about signal processing hardware architectures in consumer mice, much to carter's chagrin :D.
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 July 2013, 15:13:11 by mkawa »

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #330 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 03:36:52 »
that is a review of "bottleworks makerbot accessories", which is a company i won't bother linking here, NOT makerbot, who has been absolutely wonderful.
Ahh, okay, I wondered why things weren't adding up.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #331 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:34:47 »
oh, that reminds me, my machine is down, and actually it's been torn down to the frame, while i put together parts to rebuild the z axis and plate better, faster, etc. etc. i _believe_ this stuff should be showing up tomorrow, and i should have it back together by the weekend. i'm also replacing the head, and i've learned how to calibrate the head bits a bit better, so i should be able to tighten my tolerances pretty significantly when it comes back up.

edit: i'm mentioning this because NOW, when my machine is down, i'm getting a bunch of printing requests. bug me again next week!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #332 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:44:59 »
Alps to MX adapter inserts please kawa!
Please check out TactileZine.com!

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #333 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:47:44 »
OH SURE MR I CAN PRINT ANYTHING I WANT AND WORK NEXT TO 100 MACHINES, I WILL PRINT YOU TINY BRITTLE ADAPTERS :|

yah yah next week

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #334 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 12:08:17 »
Print anything I want? Maybe. Work next to 100 machines? Just two. Do I get to keep anything? No...

:|
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Offline sparkhack

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #335 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 12:56:59 »
I'm new here and registered because of the review that I read on Makerbot Operators Google Group.  I was curious to know if you had any other upgrades installed?  Which ones do you feel are needed to make the Replicator 2X perform reliably?

Thanks

i like this part of that /. post best: "The emission rates were similar to those measured in previous studies of several other devices and indoor activities, including cooking on a gas or electric stove, burning scented candles, operating laser printers, or even burning a cigarette."

lol.

anyway, if i'm reading this right, there's not much we can really do about the UFPs but fully ventilate the area, or use a fairly effective fume hood that ejects to atmosphere. hepas don't go down to nm scale, and my cheap charcoal is basically useless unless the stuff is much larger and non-inert. your dryer vent idea is probably the best, leslieann. i'll probably just open the window more often during long prints. i have nowhere obvious to route air to without opening a window, so i might as well just open the window more often and point a box fan at it or something

alas, this is also morbidly funny because i was just arguing with someone about the ABS smell, and my position was that it couldn't possibly be vaporizing. d'oh!

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #336 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 15:34:24 »
i've done a lot of little things, but most of it is measurement-based. for example, i have measured what is either t_loss at the head or inaccurate heatercore thermistors on my initial heads (measured: 190C, reported 230C). i measured the t_loss on the factory HBP (measured: 80C, reported 110C). after consulting with some polymer experts, i determined that the measured values are actually basically what one wants for the process and cooling temps.

i designed a clearance and leveling jig for a mitu 5 series indicator gauge, which as you can see in previous pages i made a pretty fundamental mistake on at first ;P, but ultimately got me some pretty good results with the factory HBP. however, the factory HBP has a tendency to warp with repeated heat cycles, despite the heat being fairly even, the thickness and density is not, because it is a gravity cast piece. i am playing around with different options there at the moment.

however, if you page back a bit, i've gotten some really fantastic small parts out of the r2x right out of the box. the M logo i printed with my friend is sweet, and the little cones are super cute. the biggest problem AND design feature of the makerbots is that because the designers knew they could not design a super flat heated build plane with their budget, they instead designed a suspension system that tries to mean out at +/-0.4 to 0.5mm or so. note that this length is a randomly directed vector, because of the jiggling, so sometimes it will take repeated tries to get a good print, and very long prints can sometimes not turn out quite as you'd like.

that said, i was weighing it against the cubify printers (discussion also in this thread very early on), and i definitely think i made the right decision. it make take a tweaking to get incrementally better parts out of the bot, but if i've learned anything from interviewing machinist after machinist, it's that every single damn machine is like this. it takes 20 years to become a shopmaster even in a full multi-axis high-spec cnc shop for a reason. the world is infinitary and quite stochastic, and we have to take it as it is :)

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Offline DamianGTO

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #337 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:45:42 »
Well I'm new here and I did read some page of this tread.
I did see that some had issues with the rep2x with PLA.
I have fund out after many test that the PLA do like the wall on the heat chamber to much.
After some time it will be to much and the printer start to air printing, due the clogging.
But I also fund out there is a very simple way to fix this.
I use PTFE oil or some high grade cooking oil and put that on a bit of the filament when I start to printing.
I also use that after I have cleaned it all out.
I also put a little extra when I do long prints.
This has solved the problem and the PLA do not clog anymore.
My theory is that the PLA get stuck to the walls and its get harder and harder for the PLA to melt and flow like it should be, but with the oil that is on the wall( i think) the PLA can not stick to the wall and the flow will be better.


Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #338 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:53:35 »
hmmm... i didn't try the ptfe lube with the PLA because i suspected the problem was that it was depolymerizing (which of course it would if it did get stuck to the heatercore). i will have to try this. if you still have mineral oil in your heads though, you wash them out with solvent (iso alcohol is a pretty safe one), as i think mineral oil doesn't react nicely with the brass nozzles. a little ptfe lube should be fine though, and the worst effect it can have is slightly lower the temperatures in-head when printing ABS, but ABS tends to flow extremely well, so i suspect that won't be an issue.

if you read elsewhere, the PTFE oil we like best here (no, in fact, WE WORSHIP IT) is dupont's krytox basic lubes, 102, 103, etc. the base is a polymer oil, which separates it from many ptfe dry lubes (which are very light petro oils with ptfe nanoscale particles). and it can be combined with the krytox line of greases to get like literally any viscosity. also the friction coefficient, it is so low. SO LOW

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Offline DamianGTO

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #339 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 17:05:05 »
hmmm... i didn't try the ptfe lube with the PLA because i suspected the problem was that it was depolymerizing (which of course it would if it did get stuck to the heatercore). i will have to try this. if you still have mineral oil in your heads though, you wash them out with solvent (iso alcohol is a pretty safe one), as i think mineral oil doesn't react nicely with the brass nozzles. a little ptfe lube should be fine though, and the worst effect it can have is slightly lower the temperatures in-head when printing ABS, but ABS tends to flow extremely well, so i suspect that won't be an issue.

if you read elsewhere, the PTFE oil we like best here (no, in fact, WE WORSHIP IT) is dupont's krytox basic lubes, 102, 103, etc. the base is a polymer oil, which separates it from many ptfe dry lubes (which are very light petro oils with ptfe nanoscale particles). and it can be combined with the krytox line of greases to get like literally any viscosity. also the friction coefficient, it is so low. SO LOW

Well I love PTFE to. HAve used it in many different thing and has always had a good results  ;D
I also do use PTFE on the outside of the nozzle. It make so the plastic will not stick to it when printing if there is some plastic that do not be where it should be. ;)

Im not sure I have used that brand yet, but I guess I need to look it up if they have it here  :cool:

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #340 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 17:16:34 »
it's CRAZY EXPENSIVE. i will be buying it in bulk and dispensing small usable quantities for reasonable prices in the nearish future (note i do about a hundred things at once, so dates are pretty malleable in my head. FAIR WARNING!)

you can get really expensive tiny amounts from mcmaster too just to try. we should be able to vend it here for about a quarter of that price though, and with a handy set of dispensers :D

also, crazy awesome tip on ptfe outside the nozzle to keep the crap from building up. oh man, you should see my old heads. i have NO IDEA how the hell half of that crap got all the way up there (BOST, YOUR CHANCE AGAIN!!)

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #341 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 17:17:11 »
edit: i'm mentioning this because NOW, when my machine is down, i'm getting a bunch of printing requests. bug me again next week!

Speaking of which, I might put in a request for a new shell for my mouse. I need to fix a few things that didn't turn out that great last time though.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #342 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 17:18:27 »
estimate about a week of downtime. hashbaz is in town, and several other things might delay me and my various shipments.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #343 on: Thu, 25 July 2013, 18:47:13 »
i expanded on the suspension system comment on the makerbot users group. i think this is actually what's going on there:

Quote from: me
the MBI engineers basically knew they couldn't build a flat, stable (ie, non-moving) z-stage with their budget. hence, they had two goals: first, when you can't make something solid, you try to control the oscillations, so they went with a suspension system and tried to dampen its frequency with every parts and material choice. second, they obviously thought hard about the temperature cycling, and wanted to protect this suspension system as much as possible from exposure to heat. hence, gravity cast aluminum for the HBP; it's cheap, and easy to make flat since it's so soft. personally, i've lapped mine down (the last time i was less dumb and did it near op temp), 2-3 times. the heater for thin aluminum is also pretty cheap and can be low wattage, even covering a large build plate. then, they tossed two layers of a fiberglass/aerogel like substance (but again, a cheap one) under the heater and threw a thin alum sheet in with the leveling nuts. on the bottom side of that, they tossed some pretty hard springs (note: measure K). and nuts for leveling the plate. some brilliant dude even made their business card a feeler gauge for optimal nozzle to plate clearance. HAH!

now, z gantry. in the center is a long buttressed plate with some reasonably hard resin. i'm guessing it's about gf20 and PPO or PO. this has a high temp resistance, plastic transition way above the heater temp, and high tensile strength due to the glass fiber. basically, its young's modulus is high, and it shouldn't yield. unfortunately, it seems to over time. my gantry plate with several hundred hours of build time (at least?) is very much convex. so, final question: why the abs arms? i think it's actually because they were trying to lower the oscillation frequency with the arms and the feather shafts. the feather shafts have a lower modulus of elasticity than steel shafts do, as do abs arms vs PO + gf20 arms. basically, they wanted the gantry plate to stay as good a leveling reference as possible (ie, they wanted it to deform as little as possible) so they made the arms and the shafts the path of least resistance for oscillation so that the kinetic energy of the plate bouncing around is dissipated as far away from the plate as possible. if you think about it, the alternatives are a) the frame. this is basically all bad. b) the gantry plate. this is exactly what you don't want.

what i think i am going to try to do with my bot is actually to transfer that oscillation to the frame and then to dampen is as much as possible in the frame. there are two ways to do this. first is to make it heavy as sh*t. i've done a bit of that already, in that my bot sits on 40 pounds of acrylic and under another 5lbs. the second thing to do is to plate the sides with material that adds weight but also dampens oscillation. one upside to this is that the one can also improve on the heat insulation goals of the side plates as well. i have some stuff i'm going to play around with for this, since steel is cheap, and heavy, and if it doesn't work out i can always make other crap with it.

as for the HBP flatness issues. it's a bit of a myth that glass is naturally flat (i can't tell you how many times i've seen this on the various printing sites and it bugs me to no end...), but i'll lap down some borosilicate -- might as well start with the bottleworks stuff, and see how well it works out.

for small parts, i'm just going to use high alumina ceramic. it's not that expensive in small pieces, it's ridiculously hard (it's basically sapphire powder in binder, compressed then fired), and it has metal-like thermal conductivity properties if porosity is controlled while having basically 0 thermal expansion.

for large parts, i have no idea. lots of power applied directly to thick surface ground silicate maybe? silicate is at least cheap... it's hard to really say what's best from a hobbyist perspective, which means there's plenty of room for experimentation :D

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Offline DamianGTO

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #344 on: Fri, 26 July 2013, 08:37:51 »
i expanded on the suspension system comment on the makerbot users group. i think this is actually what's going on there:

I think there is an error in this. The plate under the aluminium, where the leveling screws are, is made of stainless steel. I do have 3 build plate here and all are the same, ;)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #345 on: Fri, 26 July 2013, 14:10:48 »
ah, that i didn't pick up on. care to guess what alloy? something like t316 24ga would make a lot of sense. it's quite inexpensive to produce and has extraordinarily high yield strength without much weight.

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Offline DamianGTO

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #346 on: Sat, 27 July 2013, 10:03:11 »
ah, that i didn't pick up on. care to guess what alloy? something like t316 24ga would make a lot of sense. it's quite inexpensive to produce and has extraordinarily high yield strength without much weight.

No idea what kind it is. Not my field  :))

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #347 on: Sat, 27 July 2013, 10:13:35 »
CPTBADASSSSSSSS YOU ARE NEEDED

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #348 on: Sat, 03 August 2013, 23:28:29 »
if you have cad ready to go, now would be a good time to email me.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #349 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 01:18:54 »


WHERE ARE YOU CAD?!?!?!

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