Author Topic: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]  (Read 450355 times)

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Offline richardkemp

  • Posts: 4
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1650 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 04:07:38 »
All great points. And I'm well aware how hard it can be to provide even a wildly inaccurate ETA. Just curious how far along acidfire feels he is. I am, as suggested, strongly leaning towards the dox infinity for the short term.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1651 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 18:11:31 »
My wallet and I aren't in a tremendous rush so I'll just wait and see what pans.

Offline yumea

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1652 on: Sat, 11 April 2015, 17:35:54 »
i am a little concerned with the eta, too.
i would get me another keyboard to bridge the time until the delivery of the axios.
there is an ergodox that will be delivered assembled (because i do not want to try soldering on an expensive kit): https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-mechanical-keyboard/x/10491336
however, the estimated date of delivery is in december.
so, the 220$ question is whether the eta of axios will be considerably later than december.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 April 2015, 17:41:14 by yumea »

Offline Faokryn

  • Posts: 13
  • Location: NY, USA
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1653 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 10:40:05 »
I believe this is the latest timeframe we have from AcidFire:

That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.

Though Q1 crowd funding has already slipped a couple weeks...

Also, has the multiplxd forum been pretty much abandoned for now?

I'd also be interested in revitalizing the Multiplxd forum.  I have some questions about the hardware, and I don't want to get this thread too off topic with my personal inquiries, since I'm sure there are people who follow it mostly for updates from AcidFire.  On the other hand, I currently feel that posting on the Multiplxd forum would be like shouting into an empty room...

Offline the aether

  • Posts: 3
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1654 on: Thu, 16 April 2015, 18:50:39 »
I've been lurking this thread since 2013, just wanted to stop by to say keep up the good work and I can't wait to join the Kickstarter/Indiegogo for this :)

Offline Zisilius

  • Posts: 4
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1655 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 15:12:35 »
I love this keyboard so much, I just can't wait for it to come out. I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios. I hope it will come out really soon, I have been waiting for it for more than a year haha. You have been doing excellent work Acidfire, thank you for everything you do and stand for in the community. Get well.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1656 on: Wed, 22 April 2015, 18:29:21 »
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.

I think you'd probably be able to sell your Infinity Ergodox for more than you bought it for once the Axios came out, if you really needed to.

I'm buying both... :-)

Offline Zisilius

  • Posts: 4
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1657 on: Fri, 24 April 2015, 12:40:18 »
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.

I think you'd probably be able to sell your Infinity Ergodox for more than you bought it for once the Axios came out, if you really needed to.

I'm buying both... :-)

I'm glad you are. Now you made me regret passing it by. Maybe I can still contact them and get an order in. The shipping date isn't until June 29. So I think I might still be okay. Thanks though.

Offline yumea

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1658 on: Sat, 25 April 2015, 01:50:13 »
acidfire!

no harm meant, but it is quite remarkable and frustrating that the frequency of your dedication to this forum has decreased vastly - from several times each day in the beginning to barely once a month now.
additionally there is no real perspective for a completion of your project, which is attended to and caused by the absence of news by you.
so, at least for me, my initial enthusiasm has transformed into a hopeless waiting. is your project dead?

i hope you have not given up!! please share your progress with us more (much more) frequently!
your idea is awesome!!

if you have lost your interest in this project, please do us a last favor by sharing everything about your project you have so that someone else can continue this project.

Offline conandy

  • Posts: 43
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1659 on: Sun, 26 April 2015, 01:43:05 »
I'll second Yumea. I was really excited when this was supposedly going to hit Crowd Source over a year ago.  Now I just hope for a tidbit of news now and then, and have stopped being so excited any more.   Have bypassed many ergodox drops waiting for this.  I wonder now if letting the Infinity Ergodox pass by was a mistake.

Please let us know how things are going, what your current expectations are for schedule (realistic, not optimistic), etc.

As has been said before, don't let yourself suffer paralysis by analysis.  You have quite a following here of people who will buy this keyboard, regardless of whether it is "perfect", or just nearly so. 




Offline Zustiur

  • Posts: 199
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1660 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 07:09:06 »
Add me to the list of people waiting for this board who didn't order an infinity (though in my case, it was more through inattentiveness than actual choice).
I don't want AcidFire to feel like he's being pressured by the community as that sort of pressure can quickly turn into stress. I'll continue to wait patiently. Hopefully he sees these posts as encouragement :)

Offline TomBodet

  • Posts: 42
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1661 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 19:59:00 »
Add me to the list of people waiting for this board who didn't order an infinity (though in my case, it was more through inattentiveness than actual choice).

Heck I got in on the Dox Infinity and I'm still dying to see what this project comes up with.

Offline alexofthewest

  • Posts: 59
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1662 on: Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:29:22 »
beautiful keyboard! and +1 for the enders game book next to it (one of the best books ever written).

Offline markdavisxxx

  • Posts: 1
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1663 on: Fri, 08 May 2015, 08:32:59 »
Just found this topic as I'm looking to ergo my work-from-home setup.  I've been doing a ton of research lately, and this looks like the best keyboard in the works that I could find.  Keep up the awesome work AcidFire!  :thumb:

Offline richardkemp

  • Posts: 4
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1664 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 14:41:14 »
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't. Looking forward to the release of this AcidFire. Take my money!!

Offline vvp

  • Posts: 803
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1665 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 16:50:29 »
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't. Looking forward to the release of this AcidFire. Take my money!!
If you can do a bit of electronics then there is one more option: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56923.0

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1666 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:04:33 »
Each time I see this thread bumped, I rush here hoping for news... just to see someone else eager to see this project coming to fruition.

My money is waiting, too, but at this moment, I just hope everything is all right with AcidFire and his family, because two months without news feel like a long time.


I'm thinking about ordering a 'dox EZ, a bit expensive for temporary solution, but at least it's a tentable dox to fill the gap.


So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.
I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)

I guess you're on Windows?

Offline njbair

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1667 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:08:37 »
Each time I see this thread bumped, I rush here hoping for news... just to see someone else eager to see this project coming to fruition.

My money is waiting, too, but at this moment, I just hope everything is all right with AcidFire and his family, because two months without news feel like a long time.


I'm thinking about ordering a 'dox EZ, a bit expensive for temporary solution, but at least it's a tentable dox to fill the gap.


So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.
I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)

I guess you're on Windows?
Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."

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Offline Koren

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  • Location: France
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1668 on: Fri, 22 May 2015, 17:27:09 »
Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."
Nice... I hadn't seen this project somehow. Will look for it, out of curiosity... thanks!

Offline Faokryn

  • Posts: 13
  • Location: NY, USA
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1669 on: Wed, 27 May 2015, 09:24:05 »
Desire for an Axios update aside, I'm a bit worried about AcidFire.  Last time he went this long without posting something was after the car accident.  I hope he's okay :\

Offline yumea

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1670 on: Thu, 28 May 2015, 01:59:59 »
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!

no sentimental care necessary

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] (i removed the screenshot)
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 May 2015, 05:08:53 by yumea »

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1671 on: Thu, 28 May 2015, 03:09:15 »
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!
I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.

If he's fine (although you probably won't discuss all your problems on Facebook or here), that's good news. And I'm sure updates will come sooner or later ^_^

Btw, I'm not sure that posting Facebook screenshots with real names and co is the best idea, but maybe I'm a bit paranoīd ^_^

Offline Faokryn

  • Posts: 13
  • Location: NY, USA
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1672 on: Fri, 29 May 2015, 09:20:30 »
he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

I'm very relieved to hear :]

I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.

I agree.  I don't think we need to worry about the project dying.

Offline meirish

  • Posts: 18
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1673 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 20:28:24 »
If you don't follow along on twitter - there's some exciting news:

https://twitter.com/Multiplxd/status/612371130695860224

Also: congrats on getting married AcidFire!

Offline berserkfan

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1674 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 21:53:34 »
guys!

acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!

he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!

i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!

no sentimental care necessary

(Attachment Link) (i removed the screenshot)

You may have set your heart on this project, but you have at present 11 posts and no contribution to Acidfire.

Some people simply do not appreciate how much time and effort the makers need in order to complete their projects.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline jamadagni

  • Posts: 54
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1675 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 22:51:59 »
AcidFire says he "was just a little preoccupied with getting married" and "progress is still very much being made". Congratulations to AcidFire and his bride! Nice to hear on the project side too.

Offline jamadagni

  • Posts: 54
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1676 on: Sat, 20 June 2015, 23:13:54 »
One of the main reason I joined this forum was this project. I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why) over the past few days, and have saved a lot of the images just for at least window shopping for now! ;-)

Now as someone else said, I'm wondering whether I should wait for this or go for ErgoDox EZ which is to come out in December. This one is much more feature-packed for probably a similar price tag (based on the estimates AcidFire posted a few pages ago). So if this one comes out, I would be really curious to know who would buy the EZ and why (while Erez of that project has been very kind and helpful to my email queries) As for KeyboardIO, though I like the colour LED feature, I don't exactly dig the fancy butterfly shape -- not sure how many would either. Also, the outer keys especially of each side do not seem replaceable by other caps for whatever reason. Now if it were a regular rectangular shape, it might appeal to those who agree with me, but I digress...

Now that we know the reason for AcidFire's recent silence on this score, I'm eagerly looking forward to when he'll get some time [after the due wedding celebration period of course! ;-)] to post updates.

Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys which are then both combined into a cluster in the center. However this is ignoring the Esc key on the far top left and the Ins (or at least in my head I labeled it that) key on the far top right both of which are shown in bright blue in the CrowdSupply page (which is still showing the model before these changes).

Since AcidFire is very nice about getting even negative feedback if constructive, I'd like to say this: The keys from the thumb cluster did not have any fixed functions brought over from the regular keyboards, and it was going to be up to users (or AcidFire for the default firmware) to assign some function to it. So repositioning them is not that big a deal. (Frankly I myself was somewhat wondering about the overcrowded thumb cluster.)

However, the Esc, Ins and F keys have already known functions and people are used to their relative positions (whether or not they are placed in fours, or sixes or whatever). So especially considering that one of the intentions of providing dedicated F keys is to make it convenient for those who are used to it, I think they should still be retained along the top (as a modular option of course) and not reordered into clusters which would totally make it inconvenient IMO and defeat their very purpose. Re keeping them along the top, I don't think they are used so often that reaching for them is a big issue, especially since the design has them somewhat titled towards the fingers so it's not all that much of a reach. Those who don't like to reach even that much can always use one of the extra keys as an Fn modifier with a model that doesn't have the dedicated keys (thanks to the modularity).

Finally, I'd like to hear more about the hall effect sensor too. However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys, I feel that any such pointing device should not replace any more of the remaining 4 keys but be placed instead of one of the removed keys. I'm not sure we'll need 5 LEDs on either side (though usages can always be found by innovative people) so lesser LEDs should be fine.

BTW how would such a pointing device, even if clickable, be used to distinguish left-click and right-click (and middle-click for those that use it)?!!

Finally, thanks and congratulations to AcidFire and I hope he really is able to get the time to take this to completion reasonably soon!

Offline Faokryn

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1677 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 00:13:55 »
Exciting news!  Congratulations AcidFire!

I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why)

Huh, the page count did go down.  Weird :\

Offline yumea

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1678 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:26:12 »
You may have set your heart on this project, but you have at present 11 posts and no contribution to Acidfire.

Some people simply do not appreciate how much time and effort the makers need in order to complete their projects.


so, why had you not said that before? you come up with your accusations only AFTER, and right within an hour since, this news about acidfire's condition has been posted.
that you accuse me now is quite - flimsy. you were not convinced about it. if you stood by your accusation, you had showed some guts by conveying it when you were with the same level of information like me BEFORE this news - but you have failed. second-guessing is quite funny and lame  ;D i spoke out what appeared to quite a few of us - even to you i think  ;)

about your statistical analysis and your "no contribution" and "not appreciate how much time and effort" :)) : so you can count, but your reading comprehension has much potential to improve.


independently from your accusations, with this news information i can happily revise my impression about acidfire's motivation. and, read carefully and keep in mind, berserkfan, as said many times before, i appreciate this project.

Offline yumea

  • Posts: 15
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1679 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:28:04 »
this news about acidfire is quite awesome.

congratulations from me too!

it is relieving and revives my confidence that everything in life and project of acidfire works fine.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1680 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:35:11 »
One of the main reason I joined this forum was this project. I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why) over the past few days, and have saved a lot of the images just for at least window shopping for now! ;-)
If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=theme
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:38:25 by jacobolus »

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1681 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 01:49:07 »
If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=theme
Yes I know, but the point is, I was logged in even when there were 50+ pages, and I'm logged in even now. My setting for "posts per page" is set to "Forum default" so possibly somebody changed that recently.

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1682 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 02:43:36 »
AcidFire says he "was just a little preoccupied with getting married" and "progress is still very much being made". Congratulations to AcidFire and his bride! Nice to hear on the project side too.
Oh, nice... Congratulations, and a lot of happyness!

Now as someone else said, I'm wondering whether I should wait for this or go for ErgoDox EZ which is to come out in December. This one is much more feature-packed for probably a similar price tag (based on the estimates AcidFire posted a few pages ago). So if this one comes out, I would be really curious to know who would buy the EZ and why
I do, partly as a gap-filler because I felt AcidFire keyboard would be late, partly because I think having two keyboards will probably be handy, partly because I think AcidFire's keyboard won't take the same kind of beating with moving parts, partly because I want to design a firmware, and being able to test it on Ergodox could be useful.

As for KeyboardIO, though I like the colour LED feature, I don't exactly dig the fancy butterfly shape -- not sure how many would either.
Not overly fond of the shape, but I'm not bothered by it either. But there's definitively not enough keys on this one. I'm curious about the palm button too.

Besides, the non-standard keycaps make impossible to get a set of labeled keycaps with your own layout, and if they offer a blank set, I'm not sure the backlight will work well.

I'm already worried by the fact that I can't order a custom set for Ergodox EZ for a reasonable amount of money :/

Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys
The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?

However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys
4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1683 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 07:25:38 »
Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys
The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?
Nope, compare the plate:

... from here and here to the earlier design:

...still visible on the CrowdSupply site.

Note that the 3 dropped keys from 2 thumb clusters (for a total of 6 keys) and the 12 F keys are moved to the center, and further the Esc and Ins keys (blue in the top left and right corners of the CrowdSupply image) are lost.

... Wait a minute! The navigation cluster is also missing! And suddenly it appears that maybe the F keys aren't really lost! Comparing the plates with the image for the left half alone (since the right half is a mirror image), I note that the far top left key (Esc) and the navigation cluster are missing, but apart from that, I count, starting from the innermost column outwards (on either side) the following number of keys per column: 4, 5, 6, and then four 5s — so it seems now the F keys are merged with the alphanumers rows rather than standing alone? Really confused here.

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys and most importantly the navigation keys even if he is going to join the Fn buttons to the alphanumeric rows. I note however that others were saying they prefer to reduce the number of keys and so the earlier idea was to have the Esc + F_ + Ins row as an addable inward tiltable module for those who want it — has that idea been scrapped now? Re further additional keys being provided between the two halves, I have no objection but maybe that can be an add-on but not for the F_ keys please — I strongly request that the F_ keys be a single line on top...

Quote
However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys
4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?

Oh yes my apologies. I had forgotten that it was 3x3 keys to begin with and now reduced to 3x2.

I would have thought this far into the development the key layout would have been finalized... I hope to hear from AcidFire on this soon!

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1684 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 07:42:50 »
Nope, compare the plate:
You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).

AcidFire added those when he found that the USB (?) connector needed some space on the top with the new enclosure, so there was room for three buttons.

I note that the far top left key (Esc) and the navigation cluster are missing, but apart from that, I count, starting from the innermost column outwards (on either side) the following number of keys per column: 4, 5, 6, and then four 5s — so it seems now the F keys are merged with the alphanumers rows rather than standing alone?
Exactly. Not that you don't need to use those as F-keys, but at least, you have a couple of accessible keys.

I'm thinking about using the three new keys on the top and the three keys replacing the navigation cluster as F-keys.

... Wait a minute! The navigation cluster is also missing!
You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^

It indeed has been replaced back by 3 keys (like on Ergodox). There was some discussion about that at the beginning of the year. There may be different layouts in the future to suit each needs (and in fact, the navigation cluster was a change introduced in june 2014, it wasn't in the early part of the project).

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys
I think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)
 
and most importantly the navigation keys
I don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.

I would have thought this far into the development the key layout would have been finalized...
I think that the white acrylic plate you posted is the (tentative?) final layout for the first campaign.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1685 on: Sun, 21 June 2015, 08:44:49 »
I am very disappointed in the latest design and hope that acidfire will change his mind soon.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1686 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:05:45 »
Nope, compare the plate:
You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).
I don't see where there are any addition 3 keys. I don't know what versions you are comparing but as I said in my earlier post I am comparing the version seen on the CrowdSupply site ("CS version")
104041-0
vs the latest plate AcidFire posted ("latest version")
104043-1
I have numbered these for convenience. Of the first 34 keys, the first 7 (Esc + F1..6 in my mind) are in a straight line in the CS version but joined with the contoured main keys in the recent version. The 40th key in the CS version seems to be at the same position as the 35th and last key in the recent version, which means 5 keys i.e. #35..39 from the CS version are lost. Also, looking at the thumb cluster clearly 3 keys are lost, which means 8 lost keys. I don't know what you mean by 3 keys being added to the main board.

Quote from: Koren
You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^

LOL, but I don't think so, I actually did it over four days amidst other work/pressures.

The plates from Jan 26 still correspond to the CS version just minus the separate straight Esc+F row. The next image he posted was on Feb 25 which is the same as the "current version". I don't see any explanation in between for removing the navigation cluster. If you see such a post, please link it directly.

Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keys
I think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)[/quote]
Hmm I may have spoken a bit fast -- the top left key in the current version still can be used as Esc. Once we get RGB lighting who cares about keycap colours! ;-) Gimme! :-)
 
Quote from: Koren
and most importantly the navigation keys
I don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.

Hm, if I really can figure out where to put in the navigation keys, I may not worry so much. I don't insist on a T or diamond style cluster. Koren, can you please post a tentative key mapping for the current version? (IIUC you have been working on one since you were grrr-ing AcidFire for keeping changing the layout!)

There's a mapping by yumea here but it's for the CS version minus the Esc+F row.

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #1687 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:10:50 »
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snip
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
after sharing your constructive considerations on my post and your hint on the keyboard protocol, koren, i tried to get into this matter and also to get a deeper insight into the ergodox firmware files.
but it began to dawn on me that such modifier routines do not work the way i tried to set up in my previous post.
letting the keyboard send scan codes is the simplest way and seems to be done in every firmware i have found so far. but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?
that is quite stoneage.
in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.

The USB HID spec page 108 says:
Quote
17 Unicode Page (0x10)
The Unicode Page directly maps to the two-octet form defined in the Unicode Standard.
The Unicode Standard, Version 1.1, is the newest version of the UnicodeTM Standard. Unicode 1.1 includes
the changes and additions that were made to Unicode 1.0 in the process of alignment with the international
character encoding standard, ISO/IEC 10646-1, which was approved by ISO/IEC as an International
Standard in June 1992, and published in May 1993. The character content and encoding of Unicode 1.1 is
thus identical to that of the ISO/IEC 10646-1 UCS-2 (the two-octet form).
(Italics mine, LOL. Seriously, that document is dated 2004-10-28!)

Offline Faokryn

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1688 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 10:26:57 »
I am very disappointed in the latest design and hope that acidfire will change his mind soon.

I'll have to disagree with you there, Berserk; I'm really liking the design at this point!  But I think a single design will never satisfy everyone, and AcidFire just needs to make his perfect keyboard, and the rest of us will need to wait for later versions or modify ourselves once things are open source (that being said I hope the Multiplxd forum becomes more active once the product is released, as a place for owners to share mods / extensions with each other)


Jamadagni,

There was discussion about nav clusters on what is currently pages 32 and 33, with AcidFire confirming he would be dropping the cluster for the first run near the top of the latter:

I've been reading and trying a few things quietly, and I think for the initial layout we'll be going with a bit more of a normal bottom row. For those of you wanting a more traditional arrow cluster, it's marked down as the first layout option to be released after the initial product run is done.

When Koren is talking about "additional keys", they are talking about on the main module.  In your labeled image of the CrowdSupply design, the keys labeled 1-7 are a separate module (that's how they can be tilted).  These haven't been "dropped" but have been replaced by a 3x3 cluster (the plates in the center of the current design).  The three keys labeled 5, 6, and 7 on your image of the current plate have been "added" to the main module since the CrowdSupply design.  Three of the four keys from the nav cluster have been moved to follow the contour of the rest of the main cluster, so if you're just going by numbers, two keys have been added to the main module.  To be fair, if you're going to count the top row of the CrowdSupply design, you need to count the 3x3 module of the current design, so the current design has 44 keys.  If you count the thumb modules on each, the current design still wins the numbers game at 50 keys per hand to 49.  I understand the different placements means these keys aren't exactly equivalent, but since you seem concerned about losing keys, I hope this puts your mind (at least partially) at ease. :)

As for a layout, here's a color coded possibility (minus thumb and function clusters):

104059-0

The navy keys are the home keys, the cerulean are alphanumerics (whatever layout you prefer), the cyan are symbol keys, and the white are modifiers/macros/whatever you want.  Note that I divided the number keys evenly between the hands and moved the top row symbols to the center; you could leave them to the right if you prefer.  (Well, you can do whatever you want if you prefer, that's the beauty of this kind of keyboard. ;) )  I also moved the symbols that occupy the right of a standard layout to the center.  I left one 1.5u key as a symbol because I use both the tilde and the backslash semi-regularly, but if you can afford to lose a symbol key you can use that as a modifier/macro as well.

My current plan for navigation is to have a thumb switch map the arrows to what would be J, K, L, and I on a QWERTY layout.  I plan to do something similar for F_ with 1-6 and Q-Y (again on a standard QWERTY layout).  I hope that gives you some ideas :D

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1689 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 11:21:38 »
@Faokryn: Thanks for your most clarifying reply. I agree with your points, just that the different layout of the F keys would take some getting used to.

Note that rather than mapping the bottom 6 of both central clusters to F1-6 and F7-12 (I mean, that's sorta awkward at least for me!) another possibility for the F keys is to map the top 3 white keys on the main boards on either side plus the top 3 on the two central clusters, for an almost contiguous F row...

BTW if you have an SVG for the blue colour-coded layout you just posted can you please share it here? Would save me some work!

Offline Faokryn

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1690 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 11:39:10 »
BTW if you have an SVG for the blue colour-coded layout you just posted can you please share it here? Would save me some work!

I'll do you one better. Here's the link to the keyboard-layout-editor.com page: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/57a8c465f0eb8811eacef5057b051afc

I used to have one with the thumb clusters but I seem to have lost the link :\

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1691 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 17:03:37 »
Koren, can you please post a tentative key mapping for the current version? (IIUC you have been working on one since you were grrr-ing AcidFire for keeping changing the layout!)
Should there be any doubt, I wasn't actually really angry about the changes... ;)

I'm eager to test it, though...

I can post my key mapping (as soon as my computer is working again, my HDD died a couple days ago, and I've had troubles with the OS installation afterwards... and since I'm very busy, it's still an awful mess)...

That being said, it probably won't be helpful...

If there's an arrow cluster on the bottom part of the keyboard, I'll use it, but I've the arrow keys on the alt-gr layer (on qwerty layout, it would be page up/down on Y/H left on J, down on K, right on L, up on I, home on U and end on ; if I'm not mistaken). And the functions keys on the left hand of the numpad layer.

I'll probably put my most used functions keys on the three lower keys replacing the arrow clusters (F2/3/4 on left hand, 5/7/? or right one) and probably a couple more on the 2x3 upper keys that are not on a usual Ergodox.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1692 on: Fri, 03 July 2015, 02:18:41 »
I'm curious to see what the changes do to a finished layout.  I'm still iffy on the location of the function keys as I did enjoy them in their typical location above the number keys but at least they're still around.  Perhaps the new layout will grow on me. 

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1693 on: Sat, 11 July 2015, 08:21:23 »
Hello. Can I have an idea of the overall footprint and the max height of the current design, which IIAN mistaken is the final one? I am ordering a custom-made computing desk including a retractable tray for the keyboard and want to be sure that the tray will be able to hold the Axios.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 July 2015, 09:07:14 by jamadagni »

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1694 on: Mon, 13 July 2015, 13:38:12 »
I am now wondering whether the Axios has addressed this problem with the ErgoDox thumb clusters ("TCs") because the Axios has also used 1u-wide for the TCs just like the ErgoDox. I know the Axios has a separate PCB for the TCs and it's angled down so that the thumb can move inwards which may address the issue of hitting Space, but still how about accessibility of the 4 keys other than those two closest to the main (alpha etc) board?

I am asking because I was planning key layouts for my "future purchase" of the Axios. I was thinking of putting all my modifiers on the thumb clusters (which is apparently something others agree with) and symmetric on both hands.

With the ErgoDox since it's all flat, the wrist can turn in a bit and with the help of non-thumb fingers we can execute combinations involving Ctrl, Alt, Shift and Meta on one hand with the other hand hitting the requisite final key. But with the Axios, since the TCs are facing down, the non-thumb fingers would be hard put to access the keys in them (I mean we would have to totally rotate the wrists inwards which is uncomfortable to say the least).

So what are we supposed to do with those other thumb cluster keys and where are we supposed to put the modifiers? Again on the weak little fingers like on regular non-ergo keyboards? I don't think that's right...

Jacobolus has gathered detailed feedback about the TC issue and put up multiple diagrams in an effort to solve the problem. These should definitely be taken into consideration IMO but of course the matter of the downward tilt has to be factored in...

If this issue is not addressed, I'm not so sure that the Axios is the answer to my keyboarding requirements anymore! :-(

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1695 on: Tue, 14 July 2015, 12:06:24 »
I am now wondering whether the Axios has addressed this problem with the ErgoDox thumb clusters ("TCs") because the Axios has also used 1u-wide for the TCs just like the ErgoDox. I know the Axios has a separate PCB for the TCs and it's angled down so that the thumb can move inwards which may address the issue of hitting Space, but still how about accessibility of the 4 keys other than those two closest to the main (alpha etc) board?
I'm not sure it's easy to answer this, as people can have different resting positions and hand sizes... I fear only testing would allow you to decide.

Though, besides the angle, I'm pretty sure that the thumb keys are slightly closer than on an Ergodox.

I was thinking of putting all my modifiers on the thumb clusters (which is apparently something others agree with) and symmetric on both hands.
I don't think even a general agreement should drive your decisions about the layout, especially if you feel pain using a board that many find comfortable... I'm not even sure I would use modifiers on the thumb clusters in your case.

You can use the Axios flat if you think it's better, too.

So what are we supposed to do with those other thumb cluster keys and where are we supposed to put the modifiers? Again on the weak little fingers like on regular non-ergo keyboards? I don't think that's right...
I'm not sure it's a big issue, especially if you don't put the modifiers on places far from the pinkies resting position. The issue with Ctrl, for example, is that it's about 2 columns left/right and 2 rows down from the resting position. If you use Ctrl a lot, you could even put it on the home row or really close to it.

You could also define modifiers as "dead" keys (think Ctrl then C instead of Ctrl+C)

Jacobolus has gathered detailed feedback about the TC issue and put up multiple diagrams in an effort to solve the problem.
I also find that the TC on Ergodox is too far away, and it's one of the reasons I want to tweak the Ergo PCB (simply by reducing the lower 1.5u middle key to a 1u one, you can move the TC closer to the hand). Another reason is that I'd like to be able to use a standard ISO set of keys... I may use levers instead of keys for some TC keys.

I expect the Axios to be better, but I'm eager to test it because I think it'll be the only way to be sure.

Offline davkol

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1696 on: Tue, 14 July 2015, 12:55:23 »
I guess the primary concerns are, if AcidFire's fine and if *anyone* will *ever* get the Axios, regardless of exact layout. The funding was supposed to start *last* summer after all, according to some AF's posts in this thread.

I don't think ErgoDox thumb clusters are particularly bad anymore; most people are just using them incorrectly. Just replace each 2x key by two 1x keys with aggressively sculpted keycaps, and hover your hands. That's not to say they're perfect. They aren't.

I'm currently using 8 thumb keys on each side, and most of that are modifiers. It takes effort to move and curl the thumb from the outer bottom keys to the key below X/dot, thus I'd really appreciate at least an extra key below B/N, but it's hard to get it any better. I mean, I probably won't get the keyboard.io Model 01, because it doesn't have enough thumb keys . (Oh well, I'll actually get it anyway, because wallethack.)

My other issue with keyboard.io, ErgoDox etc. is the flat plane, and this is where Axios should be an improvement. It's like the difference between Microsoft Trackball Optical and basically every other trackball.

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1697 on: Wed, 22 July 2015, 06:19:21 »
@davkol: As I posted earlier from AcidFire's Twitter account that he has recently got married, he's probably busy with that, so I'm not worried whether he is fine, but I agree on the time frame issue and just the uncertainty regarding the time factor is making me lean more and more towards joining the ErgoDox EZ buy. Of course, I have till December to decide...

Aside from that, @koren: thanks for your comments re the TC. IIUC you say "we'll only know whether the Axios's TC is good if we try it out" but ~250 USD which is about the current estimate isn't a small amount for everyone, especially when it has to convert into other currencies (such as my INR). If at least we could have a to-scale PDF which we could print out on a card and bend down the TC we could "try it out" to some extent at least. It'd be nice if someone could provide that. (I'm not personally sure enough of the relative sizes to do one myself.)

Personally, and continuing to theorize until we have such a PDF to try something out practically, I think that while it's true that the thumb's natural movement is almost perpendicular (in 3D) to that of the other fingers, with the common keyboards we hit the space with the side of the thumb, and this can translate to the Bksp, Enter etc a la Kinesis/ErgoDox too, so 3D is not really necessary (although radial layout would probably be more ergonomic than the Kinesis/ErgoDox, at least with a planar board unlike the Kinesis).

And in 3D, it seems to me that to expect the thumb to be able to hit six different keys, and 1.5u at that, will be highly impractical, since it means I have to move my thumb perpendicularly down from the plane of the rest of the fingers, and then stretch it for the upper row which (based on my rough experiments) are quite uncomfortable movements. This further makes it impossible for one to even imagine using such a TC for modifiers.

I know AcidFire said he tested the tilted TC, and that too with people of the "fairer" sex as well, which is good, I'm not sure if he considered the fact that one signficant usage pattern of the TC is for modifiers where multiple keys may be hit at the same time.

OK fine, as koren says, I still can have the Axios' TC planar with the rest of the board, but I'm just wondering aloud whether a downward TC is really all that it is made out to be... Compared to that, the Kinesis setup seems much much more sane and meaningful, since I still can turn my wrist inwards and have my index/middle fingers hit the modifiers, which is not possible with Axios with the TC down.

Now if only the Kinesis were to fix those rubber keys on the F row...

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1698 on: Wed, 22 July 2015, 08:24:42 »
IIUC you say "we'll only know whether the Axios's TC is good if we try it out" but ~250 USD which is about the current estimate isn't a small amount for everyone, especially when it has to convert into other currencies (such as my INR).
Indeed...

You can always try to create a keyboard with cardboard and modeling clay (I did this) to judge a layout, but without actually typing, it's still a guessing game :/

And in 3D, it seems to me that to expect the thumb to be able to hit six different keys, and 1.5u at that, will be highly impractical
You can always not use them... I intend to use the upper row for really uncommon functions, like japanese layer switching or rare shortcuts.

Offline jamadagni

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1699 on: Tue, 28 July 2015, 22:14:39 »
I can't want for Axios to become available... Over the past few weeks I was seriously thinking of whether an ErgoDox would do for my requirements but the 76 keys are totally insufficient for my requirements esp with having to choose between the F-key vs number key usage of the top row.

Pushing numbers/symbols to higher shift levels (such as in this layout) is unacceptable to me since our (Indian) scripts already have a large number of characters and we have to use multiple shift levels to gain access to them. In fact I suspect minimalism suits only pure Latin/English users and I'm not sure that such minimalism would be even suitable for other European languages with 4 levels (or even 8 levels which I have seen in a German layout file in XKB).

Too much cognitive load results in having to reconfigure one's practices w.r.t. which key combinations produce which characters, and as I said with scripts with a large number of characters, even theoretically devising such a layout (cramping all the required characters alongwith F-keys and the number into the 76 keys of the ErgoDox) seems well nigh impossible.

Thus if only the Axios would come to fruition soon, with its 100 keys it gives me all I want... While I have my own dream of what a nice compact but sufficient keyboard would be like, I lack the technical knowledge to actually go about building one, so the Axios seems to be it for me...

BTW an important question: if the two halves are not going to be joined together, what will happen to the central hotkey (F-key) clusters?