MX Clear stem tops: tight fit for keycaps

[Photoelectric]

Continuing the prolonged discussion from the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread here.
Another recent example: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=5100

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Update #2: mystery solved:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53113.msg1183206#msg1183206
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This appears to affect older and new MX Clears.  Modern MX Clears are "normal" and don't suffer from the tight keycap fit. <-- I've now experienced this not to be true.  My brand new MX Clears still have the issue of locking onto some keycaps very strongly and require care when removing those keycaps or stems can get pulled out (+ switch tops, from my universal plates).

I myself have found my used and likely older MX Clears to be a tad thicker than modern MX Blacks at the top of the +-shaped stem.  No precise measurement though, just by eye.  I should have brand new modern Clears come in this week to compare.

Photo of the notches on used MX Clears (view from the side):

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ETA: Just took photos of modern MX Black and a ued MX Clear side by side.  MX Clear clearly has a thicker "top" notch vs MX Black.  The middle bump is the same--it's just a matter of different perspective (the Black switch is slightly turned w.r.t. the camera).  But the top part is chicker on MX Clear!  Not sure if that's the cause, as it's a bit different from modern Clears.  I'll take more side by side photos of modern Clear and MX Black or Blue soon:

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(click to enlarge) to see the difference

MX Clear vs MX Blue:

The top notch on the Clear is still much taller.  The middle bump/notch on the Blue is tiny and smooth, whereas on the Clear it's extended and almost looks like it has locking spaces on the sides.  My keycaps go on and off that blue stem extremely easily.



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Update: the mystery continues.
Photographs of Modern brand new MX Clear stem.  These have a lower top protrusion, but the middle 'bump' is still strong.  Will take comparison photos.

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[CPTBadAss]

I've linked all the relevant topics from the Simple Questions thread here.

I've been using the Olivetti GMK caps on my Leopold and have never had an issue removing the caps. I guess you could try the method you suggested but I've never encountered the problem that you suggested. Maybe someone else has had this issue and can suggest a solution?

Edit: I didn't want to assume. Maybe you're just a great person and wanted to help out with the MOQ. If you took that the wrong way then I apologize but I can't tell if people are being serious or not sometimes.

Lol it's cool!!! Anyway, I know for a fact that cherry ABS doubleshots are tighter than thick PBT. I guess I'll wait until someone else sees my post

PS - Thanks!

Why are Cherry ABS caps so difficult to pull off?!?!?! I know, I know, that's just how they are, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to put them on some spare switches a few times to loosen them up or if this would be a waste of time. Granted my plate allows for removable switch tops, but I opened up at least three switches on my Poker when pulling off six caps and I don't like it

Edit - I need to know before my purple GMK mods arrive lol

I have noticed that caps seem to hold to the stem a lot firmer to my clear stems than any other stems I have.  Which would be blues, browns, and reds.  But I noticed this with both ABS and PBT caps.  But I haven't pulled any switch housings apart and my clears are PCB mount.

Clears have some funny indent in the stem that seems to act as a locking latch. Now that you mention it I do remember having a terrible time pulling the caps off of the WEY EK2000 I got. I am sure the caps had never been removed ever from it before me. I think I even pulled a few whole switches out of the PCB on that one.

Uh-oh, I've got some brand new Clears coming in soon--will have to investigate!

This only happens with brand new cherry ABS doubleshots. Thick PBT can sometimes cause one side to pop out, but I've never had the whole switch top pull off like this with any other kind of keycap including used cherry ABS doubleshots.

Stop using glue when fitting them keycaps, and they are not hard to take back off
New keycaps are often just tight, but that's a good thing. Better than them flying off when typing because they are too loose.

lol I agree with you about it being a good thing. It's less that they're difficult to remove and more that they're pulling my switch tops off when I pull of the caps (I'm very patient and gentle when doing this). I guess I'll have to keep the purple mods on forever, thanks

Why are Cherry ABS caps so difficult to pull off?!?!?! I know, I know, that's just how they are, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to put them on some spare switches a few times to loosen them up or if this would be a waste of time. Granted my plate allows for removable switch tops, but I opened up at least three switches on my Poker when pulling off six caps and I don't like it

Edit - I need to know before my purple GMK mods arrive lol

I have noticed that caps seem to hold to the stem a lot firmer to my clear stems than any other stems I have.  Which would be blues, browns, and reds.  But I noticed this with both ABS and PBT caps.  But I haven't pulled any switch housings apart and my clears are PCB mount.

Incredible! I'm using Ergo Clears, so that probably explains why not too many others understand what I'm talking about. Anyway, this totally makes sense. Thank You

You can touch the plate of a Filco. You can even touch the controller while it's plugged in. I used a filco without a top cover for a while and quite often accidentally touched the controller and plate. Nothing happened.

Clears have some funny indent in the stem that seems to act as a locking latch. Now that you mention it I do remember having a terrible time pulling the caps off of the WEY EK2000 I got. I am sure the caps had never been removed ever from it before me. I think I even pulled a few whole switches out of the PCB on that one.

Do you mean like this? Sorry for the grainy photo.

Show Image

Every colour switch I have has an indent like this : white, blue, red and dark grey as pictured.

When I did my ergo-clear mod, the clears I got were super tight compared to any other switch/stem I've used

I have 5 Clear boards (all plate mounted), and have never had any problems...  Strange.

I concur on the clear stems thing.

I used the same caps on several keyboards before, and the clear switches are the ones that seem impossibly tight. Pulled the top housing off a couple of times (probably didn't help that the latches are probably looser from having opened them several times), but I'm pretty sure there's something going on with the clear stems thats not happening the other switches.

Why are Cherry ABS caps so difficult to pull off?!?!?! I know, I know, that's just how they are, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to put them on some spare switches a few times to loosen them up or if this would be a waste of time.

I know this was on the last page, but since there were mentions of it, I thought I'd comment. Modern clear switch stems are much tighter on any caps, so it's a lot harder to pull the off.

Now most people do not know this, but SP PBT caps are the tighest caps for any stems. If you combine that with new clear switches... it's over, you're never getting them off (assuming you can even get them on in the first place).

Why are Cherry ABS caps so difficult to pull off?!?!?! I know, I know, that's just how they are, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to put them on some spare switches a few times to loosen them up or if this would be a waste of time.

I know this was on the last page, but since there were mentions of it, I thought I'd comment. Modern clear switch stems are much tighter on any caps, so it's a lot harder to pull the off.

Now most people do not know this, but SP PBT caps are the tighest caps for any stems. If you combine that with new clear switches... it's over, you're never getting them off (assuming you can even get them on in the first place).

Thanks for your input, and OMG that's scary!!!

I'm referring to PBT specifically from SP, and modern clear stems. Any other PBT caps or stems would be fine though.

Why are Cherry ABS caps so difficult to pull off?!?!?! I know, I know, that's just how they are, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to put them on some spare switches a few times to loosen them up or if this would be a waste of time.

I know this was on the last page, but since there were mentions of it, I thought I'd comment. Modern clear switch stems are much tighter on any caps, so it's a lot harder to pull the off.

Now most people do not know this, but SP PBT caps are the tighest caps for any stems. If you combine that with new clear switches... it's over, you're never getting them off (assuming you can even get them on in the first place).

Thanks for your input, and OMG that's scary!!!

I put my nyan set (a sp pbt set) on my nearly new clear springs. I think I mounted on a cherry set before the nyan but other than that, none. They weren't that bad for me to pull off.

MX Clear.  Looked the same as an MX Black switch I compared it to.  But perhaps the cross part was a tad thicker itself vs. the one on MX Black.

Show Image

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(I can put these into a separate thread).

This whole issue with Clears is kind of interesting and doesn't really make sense to me.  I just took some calipers to Clears and found them to be the same size on their x and y axes (axis label

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Show Image

) as Browns, Reds, and Blacks, or at least close enough that it shouldn't make a difference.  That said, I did notice that the Clears and Blacks were a little thicker on the bottom half of the y axis than the top (bottom half on the y axis, not the z axis), a little thicker than the y-axis on Reds and Browns.  So, logically, if caps seem to fit tighter, it can't be because they're a little bigger.  If that were the case, that problem should also befall Black switches, but it seems it doesn't.

[calavera]

I never even noticed those notches on any of my switches..

[therecorder]

Perhaps it's the finish/composition of the Clear stems that is different.

[Dubsgalore]

my clears are a ***** to swap caps onto...

[aggiejy]

I concur with all this.  I've yanked out cherry stabilizers trying to remove freshly-installed cherry doubleshots on clears.  Never had a problem on any other stem color, and I've had lots of new sets on new stems.  There certainly seems to be something that makes them a hair bigger.  Once your caps get a little wear of them, they loosen up though.

[The_Beast]

Same here, really tight, but no popping of switch tops

[Photoelectric]

Added a perhaps revealing photo to the first post (photo #3), showing that the top notch on the Clear stem is thicker than that on MX Black.  Click on the photo to zoom, and you'll see the difference better.

[Dubsgalore]

I'm happy this thread has been started
i always had heard that clears were harder then normal to get off...and then i actually got mine and it was true
Not as bad as when i first got them, but by far still the most difficult. they like to give a little fight

[calavera]

I'm happy this thread has been started
i always had heard that clears were harder then normal to get off...and then i actually got mine and it was true
Not as bad as when i first got them, but by far still the most difficult. they like to give a little fight

Because they know we be popping key caps to open them up for different springs. They scared.

[Dubsgalore]

Because they know we be popping key caps to open them up for different springs. They scared.

haha not me! stock clears ftw

they still be scared everytime i do it though

just in case

they don't trust me

[Larken]

*inserts joke about how wearing black makes one look thinner*

but yes, for some reason, clears are the only stems which give me problems with this. Mine came off an old cherry g80-8113.

[calavera]

On a serious note, I did notice clears are harder to take off key caps. To a point where sometimes it pulls the PCB mounted stabilizers off with it and I have to press down on the stabilizer top to secure it again. Not sure if it's an A.86 PCB flaw but it's annoying.

[BlueBär]

I actually had trouble putting on a keycap on a MX Clear from the WASD test kit if I remember correctly.
Maybe the dye they are using shrinks when it dries a bit, and since the clears are undyed, they remain a tad bigger?

[nsrexler]

I've noticed this too on my Ducky with Clears. At first I thought it was just the particular caps I was using, but then I noticed it with other caps as well.
They're still nowhere near as tight as Alps keycaps, though!

[Jocelyn]

Thanks for making this thread Photoelectric!!!

[Photoelectric]

Thanks for making this thread Photoelectric!!!

Sorry, you said you were going to, but then people added more posts, and I had taken some more photos 

[Jack Karneval]

Interesting.... will keep this in mind for the future.

[mattics]

I noticed this when I got the WASD sampler kit, I got a cap stuck on the clear switch for quite some time. In the end I had to take apart the switch so I could get a grip on the stem itself without risking ripping the switch apart.

[Photoelectric]

Added more photos to the first post of MX Clear vs MX Blue.  Click on the photos to see greater detail.

[SpAmRaY]

Now you guys got me paranoid about whats going to happen when I try to take these keycaps off my clears

[InAComaDial999]

I just got my Ducky G2 with Clears this past Saturday, and I can confirm the caps are harder to get on / off.  I took one off for a picture and it was a lot more effort than with other MX switches.  You definitely want to take your time with it.  Putting it back on was strange as well.  It went on 2/3 or so of the way more or less like any other MX switch, but to fully seat it you have to push quite hard and you hear a "POP" when it sits fully. 
 
Wasn't sure if this was due to the switch or the PBT keycaps, but I guess it's "clear" now that it is the switches.  Har har.

[Photoelectric]

I suspect that's more due to Ducky keycaps.  My Shine keycaps have the same click, and I've seen someone else mention it.

[Photoelectric]

My Brand New (modern) MX Clears arrived today, and I have to report that the longer and more protruding parts are no longer the case on them.  They look a lot more like MX Blues I posted in the OP.  Keycap fit is also not tight at all--very normal, and keycaps are easy to put on and pull off. [Update: that was just a particularly loose set of keycaps or something... my new Clears still lock on to certain keycap sets too tightly].  There's an additional little notch on the opposite side of the stem that I did not see on other switches.  I'll take photos later tonight.

Those who have Duckies, it's likely due to your Ducky cap design.  I have that issue with Shine caps on my Ducky with MX Browns too.

[nubbinator]

Now you guys got me paranoid about whats going to happen when I try to take these keycaps off my clears

You'll be fine.  I've never had any real issues.

[Jocelyn]

Now you guys got me paranoid about whats going to happen when I try to take these keycaps off my clears

You'll be fine.  I've never had any real issues.

Have you successfully pulled the CMYK Yellow shifts off of a board with clears? Did it require little to no effort??

[elton5354]

I just broke a stem from a key cap from pulling too hard on a clear switch...

[aggiejy]

I just broke a stem from a key cap from pulling too hard on a clear switch...

Doh! Which key, which set?

[elton5354]

I guess I won't be trading my set until I can get a extra delete key from Samwisekoi...(if possible).

[nubbinator]

Have you successfully pulled the CMYK Yellow shifts off of a board with clears? Did it require little to no effort??

Just did it on my RK9000 with Clears.  Wasn't any harder than my QFR, at least not that I noticed.  The bigger problem is just trying to get my bloody plastic cap puller to play nice.

[therecorder]

This is interesting...

Previously, I mentioned that I have 5 keyboards with Clears.  Three of these are Keycool 2012 Limited Editions (white 87, black 87, and white 84).  The boards came with ABS keycaps, and I often "easily" changed them to various colored 37 PBT KBC Keycaps that I bought from Qtang.  Today, I received 2 white PBT and 1 black POM, Keycool manufactured, replacement keycap sets for these boards.  I changed the black 87 keycaps.  All the ABS keycaps came off very easily, and the POMs fit well, although they were a bit difficult to click into place.

When I pulled out the new white 87 PBT keycap set, I realized that they were bright white, and the keyboard was a Filco type white (tannish).  So, I decided to remove the new black keycaps that I had just put on the black 87, and use opposite body/keycap colors on the 2 keyboards.  FAT CHANCE!  The POM keycaps are way too tight, and I'm afraid that if I pull any harder than I have, I will start hurting keyboard or body parts.  Go figure!

[Photoelectric]

Ok so perhaps it's not new Clears but just different batches of Clears?  Seems unlikely though.  And there's an easily discernible difference between my used Clears and brand new Clears I just received.  Seems unlikely that Cherry would be changing the mold back and forth--unless they have more than one factory producing Clears with different machinery.

[therecorder]

Ok so perhaps it's not new Clears but just different batches of Clears?  Seems unlikely though.  And there's an easily discernible difference between my used Clears and brand new Clears I just received.  Seems unlikely that Cherry would be changing the mold back and forth--unless they have more than one factory producing Clears with different machinery.

Yes, but it must also have something to do with the stem/keycap combination.  The ABS and KBC PBT were fine.  Perhaps they are "softer".  Perhaps the POM (and other PBT) keycaps are "harder" (more brittle), and just won't "slide" out of the notch.

[therecorder]

Do you think sticking the keyboard in the refrigerator for a while would make the keycaps easier to remove?  Would this harm the keyboard in any way?  If not, I'll give it a try.

[Photoelectric]

Do you think sticking the keyboard in the refrigerator for a while would make the keycaps easier to remove?  Would this harm the keyboard in any way?  If not, I'll give it a try.

1. I doubt it would help, and don't forget, the keycaps would shrink around the stems too, and 2. refrigerators can have fairly high humidity, plus of course you will get condensation on everything once you take out your keyboard.  You'll have to let it sit and dry for a while before plugging in. 

[therecorder]

Also bought a replacement set of black 84 POM Keycool keycaps for a Keycool with Blues (same as the ones that I put on the Clears).  They also won't come off of the stems!  Since this phenomenon is something that is recent, and never mentioned on Geekhack (or Google) before, I am beginning to think that we are dealing with new keycap molds; same molds being used for various makes of keycaps...  This would make sense since the cost of making new molds is so high.

Either this, or  the refurbishing of older molds...  Stem holes seem deeper.

[therecorder]

Just installed the white 84 PBTs.  No more problems than usual.  When I pressed down to bottom them, I either got a soft click, or no click at all.  Can be removed with no more force than usual.  The PBT material is definitely softer than the POM material of the keycaps on the other two boards

[Poom]

Hi, I dont know if this is the right place to ask or not. but it has something to do with clear switches.

I have a G80 board with MX Clears, which was too stiff for my liking, then after a few months of use, i guess it broken in and the springs feels so much better but at the same time it developed much louder rattling noise when typing. I dont really know where the noise comes from, bottoming out? (I dont think so), or from the switch construction as in internal parts, stems and stuff. so my question is, if i lube the stems and springs, would that help in terms of noise as well as feel?

another question is abot the spring, the stock springs from mx clears, are they the same stiffness as blacks? and then how many different stiffness of sprinds does cherry make?

in order of softest to stiffest:

one is for (brown, red and blue)
then one for clears and whites???
one is for (black, green)
one for those super stiff ones, like gray and beyond...

meaning if i get stock clear springs with blue stem i get white?

Thank you for your input

[Photoelectric]

Was pulling off black Filco caps off ergo-Clears (brand new) today--very carefully--and one cap was still so stuck onto the stem, I pulled the stem + top cover off with the cap.  Granted, the plate allows for opening caps, so it was not a big deal to pop it back in.  But still.  And Filco caps aren't exactly tight--they seem fairly average--certainly not as bad as Ducky Shine caps.  I would never combine Ducky Shine caps with Clears--bad idea!

[Poom]

im with you on this, i have noticed the same time, the "older badge" of clears came with my g80 tend to fit tighter than the new ones i got recently.

but it doesnt really interfere with the performance though.

[Photoelectric]

Just noticed your previous question.

Yes, Cherry reuses some springs for different switches, but you will not get one switch from another just by swapping springs--not in all cases.  The difference is due to the stems: they are not identical. 

For example, MX Black and MX Red ARE identical, except for the stem color and the spring.  So if you put a 60g spring into MX Blacks, you'll get MX Reds.  If you put an MX Black spring into MX Blues, you'll get MX Greens, as their stems are also identical except for the color.  That's why some people call them "ghetto Greens" and "ghetto Reds" and such.

But MX White does not have the same stem as MX Blue and MX Green.  Not 100% on it, but I think the stem is made of different plastic, and perhaps slightly different shape, but MX Whites result in a more muted click, even if you put Black springs into them to make them as light as MX Greens--they will still sound more muted than Greens.

[cub3y]

Im finding it *impossible* to remove Signature Plastics Polycarb clear DCS caps from my ErgoDox with MX Clears.

The first two, it ripped the whole top of the switch off. Also mangled the internals of one of the switches trying to put it back together.. Need to buy a replacement MX Clear as its fully lost its "bump". Also no idea if the switch works because I havent finished the other side of the Dox.

Has anyone modified their clear stems to make it easier?

[Photoelectric]

I just very very carefully wiggle the caps upward from opposite directions to gradually remove the cap.  Some people have suggested using lubricants--could try that.  But only a tiny amount of proper lubricant, like a Krytox mix, because over time it might slide down along the stem and get inside a switch.

[Pacifist]

Are tactile greys used with the same mold as clears or browns? Will I have the same problems with grays?

[Grendel]

Yes.

Reason why clears hold on to the caps, clear stem = gray tactile stem.