Keycaps

[ctm]

Though I know there is still a long time before this will be available on market, I am now having a hard time to decide whether go for black or white keycaps. To me black ones look better, but I guess black ones will have laser etched legends, which makes it feels a little different than all PBT.

[ctm]

Is there any chance of double shot PBT?

[njbair]

Is there any chance of double shot PBT?

Probably not, as the tooling to do it is uncommon and expensive. This has to do with the way PBT shrinks as it cools. PBT shrinkage is much greater and less predictable than ABS so the molds need to have that margin built in. It also means the doubleshot legends tend to look a little goofy sometimes.

[Matias]

Is there any chance of double shot PBT?

Probably not, as the tooling to do it is uncommon and expensive. This has to do with the way PBT shrinks as it cools. PBT shrinkage is much greater and less predictable than ABS so the molds need to have that margin built in. It also means the doubleshot legends tend to look a little goofy sometimes.

No plans to do doubleshot PBT.  Too many issues with it.

[vivalarevolución]

Wow, did not know these were not in stock at Keyboard Co.  Awesome.

[ctm]

Are grey keycaps in consideration? Though I like black keycaps, but black keycaps are likely to come with laser-etched legends, which are susceptible to staining. I guess grey keycaps with dye sub legends is an alternative to this.

[Matias]

Are grey keycaps in consideration? Though I like black keycaps, but black keycaps are likely to come with laser-etched legends, which are susceptible to staining. I guess grey keycaps with dye sub legends is an alternative to this.

Okay, I've added that option to the poll.

[ctm]

Are grey keycaps in consideration? Though I like black keycaps, but black keycaps are likely to come with laser-etched legends, which are susceptible to staining. I guess grey keycaps with dye sub legends is an alternative to this.

Okay, I've added that option to the poll.

It seems you replaced the blank option with black legend on grey.

[jacobolus]

A combination of black on medium gray and black on light gray for modifiers & alphanumeric keys, respectively, can look pretty good. Black dyesub legends on various pastel colors also look nice. Nice thing about black on white is that it’s relatively easy to dye white PBT to whatever color someone wants.

Which color schemes look reasonable depends heavily on the typeface and legend design in my opinion.

[Matias]

It seems you replaced the blank option with black legend on grey.

Whoops sorry, fixed...

A combination of black on medium gray and black on light gray for modifiers & alphanumeric keys, respectively, can look pretty good. Black dyesub legends on various pastel colors also look nice. Nice thing about black on white is that it's relatively easy to dye white PBT to whatever color someone wants.

Is there a known-to-be-reliable standard way for dyeing white caps?

[ctm]

A combination of black on medium gray and black on light gray for modifiers & alphanumeric keys, respectively, can look pretty good. Black dyesub legends on various pastel colors also look nice. Nice thing about black on white is that it’s relatively easy to dye white PBT to whatever color someone wants.

Which color schemes look reasonable depends heavily on the typeface and legend design in my opinion.

I agree! I really like this color! (picture from WASD)

[ctm]

I just find grey alpha-numeric with black modifiers also look great!

[Matias]

I just find grey alpha-numeric with black modifiers also look great!

Show Image

Very nice!

Would probably look even better with a black case.

[jacobolus]

Is there a known-to-be-reliable standard way for dyeing white caps?

People used to use RIT dye, but they changed their formula a few years ago. From what I’ve read, iDye Poly is now the best option, but people have also had success with Dylon.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35444
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56376
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63977
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64191
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66084
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67491

[smeggysmeg]

Matias, I would like the option for Green, Blue, or Red keycap sets.

[CommonCurt]

I just find grey alpha-numeric with black modifiers also look great!

Show Image

Very nice!

Would probably look even better with a black case.

photo courtesy of HPE1000

[Matias]

Is there a known-to-be-reliable standard way for dyeing white caps?

People used to use RIT dye, but they changed their formula a few years ago. From what I�ve read, iDye Poly is now the best option, but people have also had success with Dylon.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35444
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56376
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63977
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64191
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66084
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67491

Good to know.  Thanks...

[bcredbottle]

I wonder if Omron keycaps would be compatible with Matias switches?

Link to Omron keycaps http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/switch-cap-accessories/21944

[zombimuncha]

Hi Matias,
None of your keyboards feature a "standard" 1.25u bottom row. Do you plan to include these keys in your keycap offerings, to provide support for KBParadise, Ducky XM etc?

[bcredbottle]

I would pay through the nose for Ergo Pro-compatible Penumbra's:

[zombimuncha]

I would pay through the nose for Ergo Pro-compatible Penumbra's:

Show Image

Penumbra on Ergo Pro? Fo'shizzle? OK, dream big!
Assuming you're not joking: extremely optimistically it'll be a few years before that degree of customisation becomes feasible for any most Alps boards. The Ergo Pro has a bunch of non-standard keycap shapes that you'll probably never ever see made by anyone other than Matias, so basically, fugeddaboudit.

Other options include:
1) get some white PBTs from Matias once they're released and dye them yourself. Downside, you won't get the legend colours or the tall spherical profile.
2) get some 3d-printed stem adaptors and special balance bars (both maybe coming to market soon, see various threads here on GH) and use the MX Penumbra set. Downside: the keycaps will kinda be up on stilts, and you won't have caps for the odd sized keys, especially the smaller ones.
3) Make your own keycaps. Downside: a lot of work, expensive, time consuming, difficult. Upside: the community needs more Alps artisan keycaps!

[bcredbottle]

Other options include:
1) get some white PBTs from Matias once they're released and dye them yourself. Downside, you won't get the legend colours or the tall spherical profile.
2) get some 3d-printed stem adaptors and special balance bars (both maybe coming to market soon, see various threads here on GH) and use the MX Penumbra set. Downside: the keycaps will kinda be up on stilts, and you won't have caps for the odd sized keys, especially the smaller ones.
3) Make your own keycaps. Downside: a lot of work, expensive, time consuming, difficult. Upside: the community needs more Alps artisan keycaps!

Thanks for the suggestions. Pretty useful and creative solutions.

1) AFAIK it's going to be a few months before Matias releases the caps. Maybe I'll just have to wait.
2) I would definitely consider this. I can't find the adapters for sale online. Do you know where I could get these?
3) I wish.

[Matias]

I wonder if Omron keycaps would be compatible with Matias switches?

Link to Omron keycaps http://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/switch-cap-accessories/21944

Sorry no, those won't fit.

I would pay through the nose for Ergo Pro-compatible Penumbra's:

Show Image

Beauty right there...

Hi Matias,
None of your keyboards feature a "standard" 1.25u bottom row. Do you plan to include these keys in your keycap offerings, to provide support for KBParadise, Ducky XM etc?

Yes, the blank sets will include enough caps of each size to fit pretty much all keyboards available.  We're arranging the sets now.  I'll post a complete list tomorrow.  If I miss any, let me know.

[Salaryman Ryan]

Looking forward to see the list. Please post some photos too.

[bcredbottle]

Mr. Matias (or anyone), do you know if this set (http://www.keyboardco.com/product/matias-keyset-us-white-pc-full.asp) would at least fit the alphanumeric keys on an Ergo Pro? I know the modifiers are trickier because of their irregular shapes...

[zombimuncha]

Mr. Matias (or anyone), do you know if this set (http://www.keyboardco.com/product/matias-keyset-us-white-pc-full.asp) would at least fit the alphanumeric keys on an Ergo Pro? I know the modifiers are trickier because of their irregular shapes...

Show Image

yup.

They'll fit *most* of the keys on your Ergo.
Profile should be a perfect match too.
Note that they're ABS and are exactly the same as what's already on there, except for the colour, and I don't think you'd be able to dye them because they're ABS, not PBT.
For replacement Alps keycaps right now that's by far the easiest option.
The only other realistic option for right now is to buy an old Alps keyboard on ebay and take the keycaps off it. There are some really nice caps on certain older boards, but the good ones tend to be spendy, so it might take a while to find a good deal. It's also a lot of work cross referencing ebay with deskthority to find out if a particular sale is of interest.
I still think your best option if you want some real eyecandy on the ErgoPro would be to wait for Matias' PBTs and dye them.

Yes, the blank sets will include enough caps of each size to fit pretty much all keyboards available.  We're arranging the sets now.  I'll post a complete list tomorrow.  If I miss any, let me know.

I love you Matias

Same goes for me!

[Matias]

Mr. Matias (or anyone), do you know if this set (http://www.keyboardco.com/product/matias-keyset-us-white-pc-full.asp) would at least fit the alphanumeric keys on an Ergo Pro? I know the modifiers are trickier because of their irregular shapes...

Show Image

Yes, the letter keys will all fit the Ergo Pro.

Aside from the obvious keys that won't fit, the Left-Shift, Tab, and Tilde keys also won't fit.

They'll fit *most* of the keys on your Ergo.
Profile should be a perfect match too.

Yes, profile is exactly the same.

Note that they're ABS and are exactly the same as what's already on there, except for the colour, and I don't think you'd be able to dye them because they're ABS, not PBT.
For replacement Alps keycaps right now that's by far the easiest option.
The only other realistic option for right now is to buy an old Alps keyboard on ebay and take the keycaps off it. There are some really nice caps on certain older boards, but the good ones tend to be spendy, so it might take a while to find a good deal. It's also a lot of work cross referencing ebay with deskthority to find out if a particular sale is of interest.

Replacing just the letter keys is an easy way to get a two-tone look.  Since the Ergo Pro is all black, pretty much any donor board with lighter colour keys should give you decent results.

Not sure if there are any issues dyeing ABS.

Yes, the blank sets will include enough caps of each size to fit pretty much all keyboards available.  We're arranging the sets now.  I'll post a complete list tomorrow.  If I miss any, let me know.

I love you Matias

Same goes for me!

 :)

[Matias]

Here is the list of keycaps we are planning to include in the set of Black or White Blanks available for purchase -- with qty listed in the first column, followed by keycap profile/size...

   40   R4_1
    2   R4_1_LED
    1   R4_2

   20   R3_1
    2   R3_1.5

    1   R2-3_LEnter_2x1.5
    1   R2-3_2x1

   16   R2_1
    3   R2_1_Blind
    1   R2_1.75_LED
    1   R2_2.25

   22   R1_1
    8   R1_1.25
    4   R1_1.5
    1   R1_2
    2   R1_2.25
    1   R1_2.75
    1   R1_2x1

    1   R1_Spacebar_7
    1   R1_Spacebar_6.25

All of the above will be available in a package for $50.  You'll also be able to buy individual keys separately.

Note that for some of the unusual keys used on the Ergo Pro, we'll be selling those separately.

Let me know if you have any questions / comments...

[jacobolus]

Here that is in keyboard layout editor: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/305f012884fe5bda044e3dcc09ebca99

[zombimuncha]

Here is the list of keycaps we are planning to include in the set of Black or White Blanks available for purchase -- with qty listed in the first column, followed by keycap profile/size...

   40   R4_1

   20   R3_1

   22   R1_1

TIL F-key-row and number-row are same profile on Alps. I count 2 extras. Seems legit.
R3 and R1 seem kinda high. Am I missing something?

    1   R2-3_LEnter_2x1.5
    1   R2-3_2x1

Is this numpad? Or big ErgoPro keys? Just curious.
edit:NVM I get it. LEnter means ISO enter, and the other one is for numpad +.

    2   R1_2.25

TIL - Matias-Mini shift-keys are R1 profile.
This could come in handy for a custom build project I'm thinking about but not really planning yet.
Seems fair enough to provide easy support for the special layouts of your own keyboards when you don't know at this stage where most of the demand will be coming from.

I'm in favour of the "make it easy for everybody by selling them slightly more keycaps than they need no matter what their layout" approach. Easy is easy. Price seems ok for a big juicy "easy" kit with thick PBT. (NB you're effectively a monopoly here so I wouldn't begrudge you for gouging!)

Selling single/individual keys == amazing!

[jacobolus]

Price seems ok for a big juicy "easy" kit with thick PBT.

We’re currently talking about standard ABS keycaps as far as I know.

[zombimuncha]

Price seems ok for a big juicy "easy" kit with thick PBT.

We’re currently talking about standard ABS keycaps as far as I know.

Standard ABS is already for sale. Seems a bit weird to rejig the sets now.

[jacobolus]

Matias: I highly recommend adding a 1.75u shift profile keycap.

[ctm]

Awesome! It is possible to buy a 60% set for a lower price? Also is it possible to have a set of legended alpha-numeric keys with blank modifiers?

[Matias]

Matias: I highly recommend adding a 1.75u shift profile keycap.

Thanks.  We only use that one for JIS boards, so I don't believe we have 1.75u in stock at the moment, but will check.

This could come in handy for a custom build project I'm thinking about but not really planning yet.
Seems fair enough to provide easy support for the special layouts of your own keyboards when you don't know at this stage where most of the demand will be coming from.

I'm in favour of the "make it easy for everybody by selling them slightly more keycaps than they need no matter what their layout" approach. Easy is easy. Price seems ok for a big juicy "easy" kit with thick PBT. (NB you're effectively a monopoly here so I wouldn't begrudge you for gouging!)

Selling single/individual keys == amazing!

Since there are lots of layout variations with the different boards out there, and since there are no legends to worry about with a blank set, we thought it best to just support every layout with one blank set (if possible).  Also, there's lots of manual labour that goes into assembling these keycap sets, so we're trying to automate things as much as possible, by covering most options with one kit.

Awesome! It is possible to buy a 60% set for a lower price? Also is it possible to have a set of legended alpha-numeric keys with blank modifiers?

Our current thinking is to sell complete blank sets and complete printed sets.  Would it be better to sell the alphas and mods as separate sets -- so you can mix & match colours if you like?

[njbair]

Matias: I highly recommend adding a 1.75u shift profile keycap.

Thanks.  We only use that one for JIS boards, so I don't believe we have 1.75u in stock at the moment, but will check.

This could come in handy for a custom build project I'm thinking about but not really planning yet.
Seems fair enough to provide easy support for the special layouts of your own keyboards when you don't know at this stage where most of the demand will be coming from.

I'm in favour of the "make it easy for everybody by selling them slightly more keycaps than they need no matter what their layout" approach. Easy is easy. Price seems ok for a big juicy "easy" kit with thick PBT. (NB you're effectively a monopoly here so I wouldn't begrudge you for gouging!)

Selling single/individual keys == amazing!

Since there are lots of layout variations with the different boards out there, and since there are no legends to worry about with a blank set, we thought it best to just support every layout with one blank set (if possible).  Also, there's lots of manual labour that goes into assembling these keycap sets, so we're trying to automate things as much as possible, by covering most options with one kit.

Awesome! It is possible to buy a 60% set for a lower price? Also is it possible to have a set of legended alpha-numeric keys with blank modifiers?

Our current thinking is to sell complete blank sets and complete printed sets.  Would it be better to sell the alphas and mods as separate sets -- so you can mix & match colours if you like?

Split color alphas/mods is super common. I think selling them separately makes sense. You could then fulfill a full-set order by throwing one bag of each into a box. Seems simple enough.

[ctm]

Awesome! It is possible to buy a 60% set for a lower price? Also is it possible to have a set of legended alpha-numeric keys with blank modifiers?

Our current thinking is to sell complete blank sets and complete printed sets.  Would it be better to sell the alphas and mods as separate sets -- so you can mix & match colours if you like?

That would be great! Thank you!

[Hak Foo]

I'd say "shut up and take my money", but I'm typing this on a Tactile Pro, with a bucket of your switches sitting behind me waiting for the GH-122 project to get into production, so it's obvious you HAVE my money.

Doing the sets as two mini-packs (modifiers and base keys) lets you hit a lot of popular colour waves without a lot of "stranded" inventory if some of them prove unpopular.

Specifically, with white, grey, and black packs, you can do three solid colour sets, classic two-tone, Commodore-style inverted two-tone, psuedo-Dolch, inverted psuedo-Dolch,  and two high-contrast sets.  Even if, say, "all grey" doesn't sell well, you can always use the component packs to satisfy "classic two-tone" and "psuedo-Dolch" orders.

Also to consider:  What font do you want to use for lettered sets?

Your current font is distinctive, but it has the drawback of matching nothing else.  If it were italic but otherwise the same, it would be blendable seamlessly with cheap AEK II keycaps.  Helvetica legends on the top left would fit with old Dell/Focus/Northgate/Chicony boards.

With ALPS caps, you're always going to be herding cats when it comes to layouts.  However, a neutral design-- both colours and fonts-- lets you say "You can use 95 percent of the kit and your existing weird Enter or shift or |\ key, and it won't look like unicorn vomit!"

[jacobolus]

I wouldn’t worry about new legends until after getting thicker PBT caps made and a dye sublimation setup going. At that point, it should be possible to do a bunch of fun stuff, especially if you can handle two colors.

As a couple silly examples,

[Applet]

Matias: I highly recommend adding a 1.75u shift profile keycap.

Thanks.  We only use that one for JIS boards, so I don't believe we have 1.75u in stock at the moment, but will check.

I'd also like it if there was a 1.75u shift. It's common on custom 60% boards, which hopefully will be more common with your switches now that caps will be produced.

[Matias]

Okay, below is the revised list -- split into separate sets for Alphanumeric and Modifiers.  Let me know if these work...


Blank Alphanumeric Keyset with Spacebars

      26   R4_1
       1   R4_1_LED

      16   R3_1

      12   R2_1
       3   R2_1_Blind

      15   R1_1
       1   R1_2

       1   Spacebar_7
       1   Spacebar_6.25
       1   Spacebar_5.5   (not yet available)


Blank Modifier Keyset

      17   R4_1
       2   R4_1_LED
       1   R4_2

       5   R3_1
       2   R3_1.5

       1   R2-3_LEnter_2x1.5
       1   R2-3_2x1

       4   R2_1
       1   R2_1.75_LED
       1   R2_2.25

       7   R1_1
       8   R1_1.25
       4   R1_1.5
       2   R1_1.75         (not yet available)
       2   R1_2.25
       1   R1_2.75
       1   R1_2x1

[Matias]

Here are the proposed Alphanumeric Blank Set and Modifier Blank Set, in one image...







(Layout link)

Okay, below is the revised list -- split into separate sets for Alphanumeric and Modifiers.  Let me know if these work...


Blank Alphanumeric Keyset with Spacebars

      26   R4_1
       1   R4_1_LED

      16   R3_1

      12   R2_1
       3   R2_1_Blind

      15   R1_1
       1   R1_2

       1   Spacebar_7
       1   Spacebar_6.25
       1   Spacebar_5.5   (not yet available)


Blank Modifier Keyset

      17   R4_1
       2   R4_1_LED
       1   R4_2

       5   R3_1
       2   R3_1.5

       1   R2-3_LEnter_2x1.5
       1   R2-3_2x1

       4   R2_1
       1   R2_1.75_LED
       1   R2_2.25

       7   R1_1
       8   R1_1.25
       4   R1_1.5
       2   R1_1.75         (not yet available)
       2   R1_2.25
       1   R1_2.75
       1   R1_2x1

[bcredbottle]

Here are the proposed Alphanumeric Blank Set and Modifier Blank Set, in one image...



(Attachment Link)



(Layout link)

Okay, below is the revised list -- split into separate sets for Alphanumeric and Modifiers.  Let me know if these work...


Blank Alphanumeric Keyset with Spacebars

      26   R4_1
       1   R4_1_LED

      16   R3_1

      12   R2_1
       3   R2_1_Blind

      15   R1_1
       1   R1_2

       1   Spacebar_7
       1   Spacebar_6.25
       1   Spacebar_5.5   (not yet available)


Blank Modifier Keyset

      17   R4_1
       2   R4_1_LED
       1   R4_2

       5   R3_1
       2   R3_1.5

       1   R2-3_LEnter_2x1.5
       1   R2-3_2x1

       4   R2_1
       1   R2_1.75_LED
       1   R2_2.25

       7   R1_1
       8   R1_1.25
       4   R1_1.5
       2   R1_1.75         (not yet available)
       2   R1_2.25
       1   R1_2.75
       1   R1_2x1

Would the be in the color scheme pictured or is that just for illustrative purposes? Looks great!

[Matias]

Here are the proposed Alphanumeric Blank Set and Modifier Blank Set, in one image...



(Attachment Link)



(Layout link)

Would the be in the color scheme pictured or is that just for illustrative purposes? Looks great!

Colours shown are just to illustrate the breakdown of the two keyset groups...

      White = Alphanumeric Set

      Green = Modifier Set

Initially, we'll have each keyset available in White and Black.

[ctm]

This division looks great. But I still find it a little wasteful to buy a full set for my 60% keyboard. There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

[jacobolus]

There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

Time for a new project!

[njbair]

This division looks great. But I still find it a little wasteful to buy a full set for my 60% keyboard. There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

That's just how buying keycaps works. We all end up with leftover keys, esp. when its a group buy.

[Matias]

This division looks great. But I still find it a little wasteful to buy a full set for my 60% keyboard. There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

That's just how buying keycaps works. We all end up with leftover keys, esp. when its a group buy.

Yes, that's because keycap tooling is generally designed to do all the keys together -- including ones you don't need.

If you had separate tooling for each keycap size and profile, it would be insanely expensive.

[njbair]

This division looks great. But I still find it a little wasteful to buy a full set for my 60% keyboard. There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

That's just how buying keycaps works. We all end up with leftover keys, esp. when its a group buy.

Yes, that's because keycap tooling is generally designed to do all the keys together -- including ones you don't need.

If you had separate tooling for each keycap size and profile, it would be insanely expensive.

I understand. Hope my comment didn't sound like a complaint. I was just observing the facts of life.

One day we'll all have replicators. Then I can go up to it when I want a new cap, like, "T, grey, doubleshot."

[Matias]

This division looks great. But I still find it a little wasteful to buy a full set for my 60% keyboard. There are almost half of the set that I will not use and I can't think of something to do with these caps.

That's just how buying keycaps works. We all end up with leftover keys, esp. when its a group buy.

Yes, that's because keycap tooling is generally designed to do all the keys together -- including ones you don't need.

If you had separate tooling for each keycap size and profile, it would be insanely expensive.

I understand. Hope my comment didn't sound like a complaint. I was just observing the facts of life.

Well, I expressed the same complaint when I first learned they did it this way. 

One day we'll all have replicators. Then I can go up to it when I want a new cap, like, "T, grey, doubleshot."

We can only hope...