Realforce 45g vs 55g

[iri]

i have an answer: no, 45g is not mushy at all.

i have a question: is 55g more pleasant to bottom out than 45g? does it have greater resistance, just like the ordinary rubber dome keyboard?

[danrew]

After spending about 3 months with a Realforce 87U 55G, 87U 45G and an HHKB I think the HHKB has the best bottom out feel.

I don't really feel much of a difference in bottom out "feel" between the 45g and the 55g. The biggest difference (for me) is the force that it takes to get past the initial bump. So really I think if you're concerned with bottom out "feel" I would say that they're comparable. Having said that they are the same, I personally prefer the 55g because that is closer to the force I like to use to hit switches.

The difference between the plate mounted (Realforce and Leopold) vs the case mounted (HHKB) Topre keyboards is much more defined. I would say that the HHKB is probably one of the most pleasurable keyboards to type on. It makes a sound that is very very "thocky". It beats the Realforces in feel, sound and keystroke travel (even though they're probably the same).

[iri]

if they are the same, how is it possible then?
how is key travel on an hhkb different from a realforce?

[Emospence]

i have an answer: no, 45g is not mushy at all.

i have a question: is 55g more pleasant to bottom out than 45g? does it have greater resistance, just like the ordinary rubber dome keyboard?

Of course it has more resistance, 45 vs 55g >.>

But def still lighter than a reg rubber dome. My fingers can still flow nicely over the 55g, not so much normal rubber domes

[iri]

i mean the springback force? does 55g resist stronger than 45g after passing the tactile bump? or all the difference between two boards is the force required to pass the tactile bump?

[Emospence]

i mean the springback force? does 55g resist stronger than 45g after passing the tactile bump? or all the difference between two boards is the force required to pass the tactile bump?

Haven't used a 45g RF for any extended amount of time but yeah, it is slightly stronger than the HHKB's.

[rowdy]

HHKB with its plastic plate is MUCH lighter to carry around.

If you want an external keyboard for a notebook that you carry around with you, HHKB all the way!

[danrew]

i mean the springback force? does 55g resist stronger than 45g after passing the tactile bump?

I think the 55g and the 45g have the same amount of return force after the initial bump. I could be wrong about this, but I think the variance in the forces are based on the rubber sheet and not the spring. So I believe that the biggest difference between the two is the force it takes to overcome the initial bump. As far as I can tell, the two have the same return force.

I reevaluated my opinions on the HHKB and I've come to the conclusion that there actually isn't a difference in keystroke travel distance but that my perception comes from a stronger bottom out response that I get as a result of the plastic housing (more positive, louder bottom out sound). I think this is what makes the 45G Realforce feel "mushy" to some people; at least for me, the HHKB feels less mushy because of the more positive bottom out feel and sound.

Same goes for the 55G Realforce. I think that the stronger force required to get over the initial bump creates a louder bottom out response as the user puts more pressure on the key.

[aref]

Danrew has a point about plastic bottom plates. Unicomp's plastic bottom plate makes a pleasant 'thock' when bottoming out a key. However, it's not as satisfying or as solid feeling as an IBM, not Lexmark-made, Model M BS switch and metal base plate. I am thinking of moving from a 45g RF to a 55g RF, both 87U KBs. I'm not so sure an HHKB would be my preference in a KB for one who writes for a living; although it may be great for people how write code.

[HolidaySHRIMP]

I had a hhkb for over a year and loved it. Got my rf and sold that piece of crap hhkb. 55g 87u layout is the best for me. Hhkb would be nice for travel but that is few and far between. I have my rf in the office and my KMAC at home. No need for travel board. =)

I do miss it sometimes and wish I had kept it for modding. Bluetooth, smartcard reader, and reprogrammable would have made it a keeper for me.

[danrew]

There's also the Leopold FC660C as an alternative to the HHKB. It's more of a compromise layout between the HHKB and the Realforce and, like the Realforce, is plate-mounted. If the HHKB layout looks a little alien, the FC660C has a comfortably familiar layout.

[danrew]

I'm not so sure an HHKB would be my preference in a KB for one who writes for a living; although it may be great for people how write code.

The FC660C is probably a good fit for you if you're looking to go small.
- It's plate mounted like the Realforces (and thockier than the RF by some accounts)
- Standard Layout (No traditional 6 cluster but it has a dedicated Delete key)
- Cheaper than both the Realforces and HHKB

The biggest challenges I had when going over to the HHKB layout was:

1. Control key is where the Caps Lock button is - copy paste functions become less than second nature
2. Backspace key is where the Backslash key is - This drove me crazy at first
3. "6 Cluster" in the second layer (Had trouble adjusting to hitting Home and End especially)

I may be somewhat of an oddball because the arrow key combos didn't really bother me, and that seems to be what throws most people for a loop when they adopt the HHKB layout. I actually really like the way the arrow keys work on the HHKB. It's actually the Home and End key combinations that are difficult for my brain to process sometimes. You have to kind of reach for the Home and End key combos where the arrow keys sit naturally under your fingers.

Took me about 3 weeks to get used to the new layout and now I switch between my 87U at work and my HHKB at home seamlessly. I think there are advantages to both layouts, and I think learning new ways to do everyday things and flexing your brain outside of its comfort zone keeps life interesting.

[Macsmasher]

I found 55g to be too fatiguing; I had to trade mine in for a variable weight board. I've tried the whole spectrum and find 45g to be right in the zone for my tastes, unlike the tactile-less 30g switches, the 45g's have a definite crispness in their actuation.

though our tastes may not align since cherry blues are my all time LEAST favorite so far. They're light enough and everything, I just can't stand how the release point is above the actuation point. It drives me bonkers!

I have a 55g RF, a variable silent RF and an HHKB Pro2. I like the rock solid feel of the 55g. And for coding, it's great since you're not typing continuously. However, it's too fatiguing for my typing style for long typing sessions. The HHKB is just right, and I even really like the variable. However, I'd like to pick up a 45g RF uni to replace the 55g.

[mrelectric]

I don't know if this will help or not, but IMO the hhkb2 is not satisfying at all to type on, I don't know if it's the case or the mount but it just feels...empty?

[Polymer]

I don't know if this will help or not, but IMO the hhkb2 is not satisfying at all to type on, I don't know if it's the case or the mount but it just feels...empty?

Could be...The RF feels like you're hitting something very solid and hard...the HHKB has a much warmer bottom out feel..part of that is the resonance of the case mounted switches vs. a metal plate. 

A lot of people feel the most satisfying part of a Topre switch is the sound..the thock...and the HHKB has the most of all of them (so far). 

The good thing is if you don't like the feel of the HHKB, you have other choices...

For me, I personally enjoy the feel and sound of my HHKB better..but I find I type more on my variable RF because it is easier on my hands...At first I found variable to be rather meh..but when I switch back and forth I can really feel how much easier it was on my hands using the variable..and while not quite as enjoyable as the HHKB, it is still really nice to use..

[mrelectric]

I don't know if this will help or not, but IMO the hhkb2 is not satisfying at all to type on, I don't know if it's the case or the mount but it just feels...empty?

Could be...The RF feels like you're hitting something very solid and hard...the HHKB has a much warmer bottom out feel..part of that is the resonance of the case mounted switches vs. a metal plate. 

A lot of people feel the most satisfying part of a Topre switch is the sound..the thock...and the HHKB has the most of all of them (so far). 

The good thing is if you don't like the feel of the HHKB, you have other choices...

For me, I personally enjoy the feel and sound of my HHKB better..but I find I type more on my variable RF because it is easier on my hands...At first I found variable to be rather meh..but when I switch back and forth I can really feel how much easier it was on my hands using the variable..and while not quite as enjoyable as the HHKB, it is still really nice to use..

Yeah I agree, it's probably just that the case keeps slipping or 'flexing' but the key does the feel nice (still prefer my blues )

[Polymer]

I don't know if this will help or not, but IMO the hhkb2 is not satisfying at all to type on, I don't know if it's the case or the mount but it just feels...empty?

Could be...The RF feels like you're hitting something very solid and hard...the HHKB has a much warmer bottom out feel..part of that is the resonance of the case mounted switches vs. a metal plate. 

A lot of people feel the most satisfying part of a Topre switch is the sound..the thock...and the HHKB has the most of all of them (so far). 

The good thing is if you don't like the feel of the HHKB, you have other choices...

For me, I personally enjoy the feel and sound of my HHKB better..but I find I type more on my variable RF because it is easier on my hands...At first I found variable to be rather meh..but when I switch back and forth I can really feel how much easier it was on my hands using the variable..and while not quite as enjoyable as the HHKB, it is still really nice to use..

Yeah I agree, it's probably just that the case keeps slipping or 'flexing' but the key does the feel nice (still prefer my blues )

Yeap...nothing wrong w/ that...

[demik]

As much as I love my hhkb, 55g RF feels so much better. The switch feels smoother which I am guessing is due to hhkb being case mounted.

But I put up with it because I love the HHKB form factor. Hoping to get a 55g rf soon and swap the springs/domes with my hhkb and see how I like it.

And by put up, I dont mean I hate it as it still feels great to type on, I just enjoy the RF feeling more.

[SpAmRaY]

As much as I love my hhkb, 55g RF feels so much better. The switch feels smoother which I am guessing is due to hhkb being case mounted.

But I put up with it because I love the HHKB form factor. Hoping to get a 55g rf soon and swap the springs/domes with my hhkb and see how I like it.

And by put up, I dont mean I hate it as it still feels great to type on, I just enjoy the RF feeling more.

You only have to swap the domes, the springs are all the same.

[iri]

am now in search for ~55g rubber dome board to see if my fingers are okay with such actuation force. that's because i can't use 45g due to pain issues due to too weak springback.

[aref]

am now in search for ~55g rubber dome board to see if my fingers are okay with such actuation force. that's because i can't use 45g due to pain issues due to too weak springback.

Is the pain you're experiencing because you're bottoming out with excessive force?  Forgive me, but I don't understand how one would experience pain because of a switch's weaker recovery or, as you said, spring-back. This is a sincere question, I'm not attempting to ridicule your post. I've recently had some pain when using my 55-gram 87UB; so I picked up an MX Red keyboard and find that I have no joint pain with the lighter switch, not surprising. So I'm thinking of getting a 45-gram Topre keyboard. After years of using heavier key switches, it may be time to be more mindful of my aging digits.

[iri]

am now in search for ~55g rubber dome board to see if my fingers are okay with such actuation force. that's because i can't use 45g due to pain issues due to too weak springback.

Is the pain you're experiencing because you're bottoming out with excessive force?  Forgive me, but I don't understand how one would experience pain because of a switch's weaker recovery or, as you said, spring-back. This is a sincere question, I'm not attempting to ridicule your post.

i don't know either. my fingers hurt on 45g topre, reds and ergo clears. it all sterted after i've used topre for a few days. before topre reds were fine to me.

[aref]

am now in search for ~55g rubber dome board to see if my fingers are okay with such actuation force. that's because i can't use 45g due to pain issues due to too weak springback.

Is the pain you're experiencing because you're bottoming out with excessive force?  Forgive me, but I don't understand how one would experience pain because of a switch's weaker recovery or, as you said, spring-back. This is a sincere question, I'm not attempting to ridicule your post.

i don't know either. my fingers hurt on 45g topre, reds and ergo clears. it all sterted after i've used topre for a few days. before topre reds were fine to me.

Thanks for responding. If you try 55-gram Topre domes, I hope the conversion works for you. Discomfort when typing is really disconcerting.

[Macsmasher]

I don't know if this will help or not, but IMO the hhkb2 is not satisfying at all to type on, I don't know if it's the case or the mount but it just feels...empty?

Could be...The RF feels like you're hitting something very solid and hard...the HHKB has a much warmer bottom out feel..part of that is the resonance of the case mounted switches vs. a metal plate. 

A lot of people feel the most satisfying part of a Topre switch is the sound..the thock...and the HHKB has the most of all of them (so far). 

The good thing is if you don't like the feel of the HHKB, you have other choices...

For me, I personally enjoy the feel and sound of my HHKB better..but I find I type more on my variable RF because it is easier on my hands...At first I found variable to be rather meh..but when I switch back and forth I can really feel how much easier it was on my hands using the variable..and while not quite as enjoyable as the HHKB, it is still really nice to use..

Yeah I agree, it's probably just that the case keeps slipping or 'flexing' but the key does the feel nice (still prefer my blues )

I didn't like the way the HHKB slid around on my desk, so I picked up these:

http://www.amazon.com/Bumpers-Small-Diameter-Thick-Sheet/dp/B003F092P6

The small are perfect at 2mm thick and doesn't raise the height of the keyboard. And you can use them on your desk drawers, kitchen cupboards, etc.

[aref]

If you found 55g too heavy down-force for sustained use, did you find another Topre switch that was more acceptable?

After thinking the 55g 87UB was 'the' keyboard, I found it was too demanding for me. I transitioned to an MX Red keyboard, which took a while to get used to after 55g Topres. The Red KB feels good, but I miss the feel of Topres--it should be Tokyo Press(ure). Once the feel of the key switch gets into your DNA, it hangs on like 'Alien'. So, you've found the 55g switch too much, did you try the 45g or variable 87U? And if so, which of the two lighter KBs did you prefer. I want another 87U, but can't decide on which one to get between a variable and uniform 45g.

I used to have a 45g, but sold it to get the 55g. So it goes. But I've never owned a variable 87U.

[flaming_june]

If you found 55g too heavy down-force for sustained use, did you find another Topre switch that was more acceptable?

After thinking the 55g 87UB was 'the' keyboard, I found it was too demanding for me. I transitioned to an MX Red keyboard, which took a while to get used to after 55g Topres. The Red KB feels good, but I miss the feel of Topres--it should be Tokyo Press(ure). Once the feel of the key switch gets into your DNA, it hangs on like 'Alien'. So, you've found the 55g switch too much, did you try the 45g or variable 87U? And if so, which of the two lighter KBs did you prefer. I want another 87U, but can't decide on which one to get between a variable and uniform 45g.

I used to have a 45g, but sold it to get the 55g. So it goes. But I've never owned a variable 87U.

Always uniform, imo.

[Polymer]

I already don't like Topre for gaming but variable Topre is even worse for gaming..

BUT, that said, for typing it is actually quite good.  Very easy on the hands...It takes awhile to get used to resting your hands on the keys...when I'm thinking more than a few aaaaaaaaaa type things come out.  You really notice the load on your hands when you go back to a Topre uniform board and you realize how much more work your pinky finger does on a uniform.  It really is personal preference though..some people hate it.  I find I like both but that if I had to use the keyboard for long periods of time, I think the variable just makes it that much easier on my fingers...

[aref]

I bought a 45-gram Topre, but it didn't get the job done. So it goes.