keyboard recommendation for typing (programming mostly)?

[Nek]

$250? i think you got ripped off...

as i said its with shipping plus keypuller and a packet of orings. but still its very expensive...

and as for the hhkb talk, i really dont get it at all. first of all the double function keys idea is as old as computing itself, even as the first typewriter really, it is called shifting (and or macros) and you can even program in software any keyboard to do that, you dont need hhkb. vim is most famous for this for decades now. you can also find topre switches in many other keyboards as well. form factor? well a 60% keyboard would be enough, as for build quality? any 60% quality built keyboard would be fine. i just smell overhype here and nothing else...

also the big problem with hhkb (and everything that derives from the de facto standard, not matter how effective or optimized it is) is that it is an arbitrary and rare layout which you have to learn, and if you do learn it then each time you will need to use a standard layout it will be annoying, counterproductive and will underpin your performance and that puts you in a disadvantage. Needing to use a, other than your own, keyboard is a situation which a professional encounters all the time.

there is a reason why qwerty is so popular, it isnt about its optimization nor its effectiveness nor its clever design, it is only because it's the one that everybody else have learnt and use. that is almost impossible to change now.

[sth]

$250? i think you got ripped off...

as i said its with shipping plus keypuller and a packet of orings. but still its very expensive...

and as for the hhkb talk, i really dont get it at all. first of all the double function keys idea is as old as computing itself, even as the first typewriter really, it is called shifting (and or macros) and you can even program in software any keyboard to do that, you dont need hhkb. vim is most famous for this for decades now. you can also find topre switches in many other keyboards as well. form factor? well a 60% keyboard would be enough, as for build quality? any 60% quality built keyboard would be fine. i just smell overhype here and nothing else...

also the big problem with hhkb (and everything that derives from the de facto standard, not matter how effective or optimized it is) is that it is an arbitrary and rare layout which you have to learn, and if you do learn it then each time you will need to use a standard layout it will be annoying, counterproductive and will underpin your performance and that puts you in a disadvantage. Needing to use a, other than your own, keyboard is a situation which a professional encounters all the time.

there is a reason why qwerty is so popular, it isnt about its optimization nor its effectiveness nor its clever design, it is only because it's the one that everybody else have learnt and use. that is almost impossible to change now.

hey dude why would you join an online community, ask for advice, ignore all of that advice, spend way too much on a board that nobody recommended in the first place? the filco is great... but...
 you overpaid by about a hundred bucks
 keypullers are a dime a dozen
 you can get o rings on eBay for pennies on the dollar

...all of which you could have learned had you simply asked some questions and listened to the advice of the community.

and then the one board that lots of people have recommended, because they use it daily for hours and hours, you **** on because of some supposed hype and because it has a layout based on a classic keyboard and designed by a legend in japanese computing?

i've spent probably close to way over two thousand dollars on this ****, and that is not that much compared to some many here. i've tried pretty much every cherry switch there is, and a few topre variants, and lots of other older stuff too. if i could give back all that experience and just start with a hhkb, i would, as would may others here, because we like the ****ing keyboard, not because other people told us we liked it.

for the record i use a hhkb every day at work, and i switch back to a macbook chiclet keyboard on my home laptop. most regulars here switch boards ALL THE TIME, multiple times a day.

please stop projecting your insecurities on us.

enjoy your keyboard.

[smknjoe]

Any good board should work for programming. My favorites are BS, blues (haven't tried greens), and the good old HHKB. Love the layout.

sth, how do you tolerate the chicklet keyboard at home? I typically use my HHKB for such situations these days. I just throw it right on top of my laptop keyboard.

[sth]

Any good board should work for programming. My favorites are BS, blues (haven't tried greens), and the good old HHKB. Love the layout.

sth, how do you tolerate the chicklet keyboard at home? I typically use my HHKB for such situations these days. I just throw it right on top of my laptop keyboard.

i dont cart my keyboard around. the chiclet works fine... i don't use my computer at home nearly as much as i do at work, and when im actually spending a lot of time on it it's either in photoshop or reason, neither of which make much repetitive use of the keyboard. that and i hardly ever use it on a desk so an extra keyboard would just get in the way.

[Nek]

hey dude why would you join an online community, ask for advice, ignore all of that advice, spend way too much on a board that nobody recommended in the first place? the filco is great... but...
 you overpaid by about a hundred bucks
 keypullers are a dime a dozen
 you can get o rings on eBay for pennies on the dollar

...all of which you could have learned had you simply asked some questions and listened to the advice of the community.

Believe it or not, but that's the best price I could find it online. I live in Greece and I have to order from a EU country or else I run the risk of getting hold on customs and have to pay import taxes, which costs are in the sole discretion of the custom officer and can easily end up doubling the cost of the product. Also it can take up to a month to clear, not to mention the trips that I may have to take to the custom office of the airport/port.

Thekeyboardco is an official retailer that ships to Greece and has it in stock for 120 british pounds (inc. sales tax), which with paypal conversion comes out at ~210$, the rest (40$) is for the shipping and the other stuff. I could not find a better price for it, some were even more expensive.

If there is a better and cheaper way, then noone bothered to help me out. Maybe that's because you hijacked my thread with the HHKB which I specifically said that I am not interested to buy it.

and then the one board that lots of people have recommended, because they use it daily for hours and hours, you **** on because of some supposed hype and because it has a layout based on a classic keyboard and designed by a legend in japanese computing?

i've spent probably close to way over two thousand dollars on this ****, and that is not that much compared to some many here. i've tried pretty much every cherry switch there is, and a few topre variants, and lots of other older stuff too. if i could give back all that experience and just start with a hhkb, i would, as would may others here, because we like the ****ing keyboard, not because other people told us we liked it.

for the record i use a hhkb every day at work, and i switch back to a macbook chiclet keyboard on my home laptop. most regulars here switch boards ALL THE TIME, multiple times a day.

please stop projecting your insecurities on us.

enjoy your keyboard.

Don't get the wrong idea, I didn't bash the HHKB. I happen to like it and i stated before that I find it very interesting. I raised my carefully thought out concerns about it, because you hijacked my thread and derailed the whole conversation for it. And all these points that I made, are especially true when its outrageous price is hovering at 300+ british pounds, which translates to ~500$ without shipping.

With that kind of price, it better cook me dinner, make me coffee and sing a song.

[vasouv]

Ελλάδα ρε φίλε!!! οεοεοεοεοε :Ρ

Totally offtopic: I think we Greeks should make group buys or something, it's probably cheaper for one guy to purchase 2-3 keyboards and then send them to the others, than each of the people buy their own... Shipping costs-wise...

Kinda on-topic: I've started to believe that keyboards such as the HHK or the Topre compacts are really suitable for programming, I wrote some HTML the other day on Sublime and because of its brilliant auto-completion, I just had to press the arrows to move a bit and write my own stuff. In a normal keyboard, you have to move your hand for a single press of the arrow keys, while on a HHK or compact Topre you hardly move your fingers.

Price is really steep though and we have no way of testing such keyboard ourselves prior to buying it, definitely a risk nonetheless.

On-topic: The price Nek mentions seems about right. The keyboard costs ~100 british pounds, with the shipping costs goes to ~134 which is about 215USD. Add the other stuff he got and it's 250USD.

[Thimplum]

I don't want this to turn into an HHKB hater thread, but the 'you don't have to move your hands' thing is not really worth it. I can stretch my left pinky over to the arrow keys without moving that much. Frankly, I don't think that that TINY saving in movement is worth ~$200 dollars more than a normal TKL.

[Nek]

Ελλάδα ρε φίλε!!! οεοεοεοεοε :Ρ

Έλα ρε φίλε, ναι ελλάδαρα!

Totally offtopic: I think we Greeks should make group buys or something, it's probably cheaper for one guy to purchase 2-3 keyboards and then send them to the others, than each of the people buy their own... Shipping costs-wise...

Well yes that would be ideal, but I have no idea how many we are in this forum to warrant a group buy.

[swill]

I am a programmer.  I have used browns, blues and reds. 

My favourite switch is an MX brown, but that is my personal preference.

I thought I liked blues until i used them everyday.  The main thing that bothered me is that the actuation point on the way down on blues is not consistent with where it releases on the way back up.  This means that you can type multiple instances of the same character with the key between the tactile bump and the bottom of the key stroke.  This was most noticeable when typing two of the same characters next to each other (eg: '', "", [], etc..).  I added an o-ring mod and this helped this a bit.  After working on my browns at home, the weight of the blue key presses really bothered me.

I changed from a blue switch keyboard at work to a red switch keyboard.  Since I am used to typing on browns, I found the reds relatively easy to switch to.  They are quite a bit lighter weight than even the browns, so it is a small adjustment.  I am enjoying the reds and do not have typo issues with them (anymore).  When other people try to use my keyboard they often have typos though because it is must more sensitive than they are used to (rubber domes OP).

I spend all day every day on my keyboards, so the lighter weight key press is nice for me because I end up having less hand fatigue at the end of the day.

I would recommend browns or a linear switch to match the key pressure you like, but that is obviously only my opinion from my limited experience.

[dante]

I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps

[rowdy]

Everyone is recommending something something different - this happens every time )

Really it breaks down to:

Size: full size, TKL or 60% (depending on whether you need numpad, arrow/function key, or have limited desk space).

Switch: heavy, light, linear or tactile.

Backlighting: yes/no.

That's pretty much it.  And no-one can really tell you what you prefer - you have to try a few keyboards before you find one or two that you really like.

[Linkbane]

well appearance is important but i'd caution you to be more aware of the switch feel and whether or not you can stand to hear the keyboard more than the look of it.
i recommend model M to everybody because it's a great board, much higher quality than any cherry MX board, and it's clicky which a lot of people (myself included) like. the tactility is much better than MX blue as well.
cherry switches are very loose with lots of wiggling, generally newer keyboards made with them that are mass produced are of 'just-ok' quality. leopold and filco are good cherry boards, as well as the CM Storm, but it is an ugly thing.

The trolls come out at night. They come onto a keyboard forum, bash on the keyboards of everyone else, and insist that all other modern keyboards are worse. CIP, the Model M is hardly built well, just massively. A modern board would be easily as durable if it was that heavy. It's very bulky, all plastic with no rubber feet and uses PS/2 which may cause compatibility issues depending on if OP uses a desk/laptop. Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality and ability. Of course, the Model M might be more durable, but that's the extra pounds. The reason that keyboards aren't as durable, or as you misrepresent, worse-made, is because almost nobody would want a ten-pound brick on their desk when a one-two pound, well made, sturdy mechanical or even RD keyboard would be better and cheaper to replace than to buy an IBM.

By being so intolerant of others and forcing your opinions onto us, you make people dislike the Model M. I admire the great feel it is supposed to have and would be very eager to acquire a Unicomp, but bashing on everything else falsely when you can't even spell and type correctly on your wonderful keyboard is hypocritical.

[N8N]

I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps

Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?

And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps.   I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it.  If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless.  I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them.  (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF?  and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)

I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on.  It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.

[dante]

I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps

Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?

And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps.   I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it.  If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless.  I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them.  (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF?  and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)

I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on.  It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.

I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard.  It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case.  They were screaming for lube!

I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet.  But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard.  If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior.  Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.

[Thimplum]

the Model M is hardly built well

[...]

Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality

what r u smoking and where can i get some

[dante]

the Model M is hardly built well

[...]

Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality

what r u smoking and where can i get some

Maybe he means Unicomp

[N8N]

I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps

Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?

And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps.   I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it.  If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless.  I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them.  (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF?  and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)

I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on.  It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.

I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard.  It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case.  They were screaming for lube!

I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet.  But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard.  If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior.  Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.

I had one for a while, couldn't use it on a PC as the lag through the ADB to USB converter drove me ape****.  I don't have that problem with PS/2 to USB converters though for some reason.

Actually did I sell it to you?  I am pretty sure I sold you something, but I don't remember what.

[dante]

I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps

Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?

And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps.   I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it.  If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless.  I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them.  (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF?  and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)

I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on.  It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.

I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard.  It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case.  They were screaming for lube!

I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet.  But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard.  If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior.  Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.

I had one for a while, couldn't use it on a PC as the lag through the ADB to USB converter drove me ape****.  I don't have that problem with PS/2 to USB converters though for some reason.

Actually did I sell it to you?  I am pretty sure I sold you something, but I don't remember what.

You sold me a AT101W

[Thimplum]

the Model M is hardly built well

[...]

Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality

what r u smoking and where can i get some

Maybe he means Unicomp

That would make more sense.

[sth]

the Model M is hardly built well

[...]

Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality

what r u smoking and where can i get some

Maybe he means Unicomp

That would make more sense.

that or refering to the rivets used to hold the Ms together. once those pop the only way to make it sturdy again is to bolt mod it... an arcane, nearly-lost art after the advent of cherry mx modding/customs.

[Thimplum]

the Model M is hardly built well

[...]

Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality

what r u smoking and where can i get some

Maybe he means Unicomp

That would make more sense.

that or refering to the rivets used to hold the Ms together. once those pop the only way to make it sturdy again is to bolt mod it... an arcane, nearly-lost art after the advent of cherry mx modding/customs.

That's not a lost art, it's a rite of manhood,

[Linkbane]

Sorry, did indeed mean the Unicomp, didn't mean to lump it with the actual Model M. But even so, the Model M really isn't all that. Again, bulk = resistance to damage. And I would stand to say that a Leopold, Das, and Topre are all built better than the IBM.

[Thimplum]

But even so, the Model M really isn't all that. Again, bulk = resistance to damage. And I would stand to say that a Leopold, Das, and Topre are all built better than the IBM.

LOL

Come at me, bro!

You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.

[Linkbane]

LOL

Come at me, bro!

You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.

Just wait while I strap a few extra pounds of metal plate to it to make the weight even. 

[Thimplum]

LOL

Come at me, bro!

You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.

Just wait while I strap a few extra pounds of metal plate to it to make the weight even. 

ok

Weight != Strength

The Model M is sturdy because it's really well constructed. It's got a MEGA thick PBT case, practically indestructible switches, all built around a thick plate of steel. Not to mention that the only pcb is the small controller board, and that's in a well protected place at the top. It's not gonna snap.

[sth]

put the testosterone supplements down and use your keyboards for typing boys

[jkercado]

This is what I use, with a few color coded keys for Microsoft Visual Studio. The old Unicomp Ultra Classic 104:



I've tried amny different keyboards, but always return to this one. It feels so good, so solid, like a precision, heavy machine. I also started my career developing programs for the IBM AS/400 systems, so I got my start on buckling springs keyboards. It feels like home.

[Linkbane]

The Model M is sturdy because it's really well constructed. It's got a MEGA thick PBT case, practically indestructible switches, all built around a thick plate of steel. Not to mention that the only pcb is the small controller board, and that's in a well protected place at the top. It's not gonna snap.

Strength does not equate to quality of construction. When I refer to quality, I mean success in what the keyboard is designed for; typing feeling,  size, and still solidity. Modern keyboards generally do not need to weigh five pounds to be solid to the point of never hearing any reports of keyboards breaking due to physical damage.