Author Topic: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)  (Read 14148 times)

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Offline jacobolus

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If they can handle it, I really want to try combining keycap families, like e.g.

Where the rows shown here are numbers / top row letters / home row letters / bottom row letters / spacebar; not sure about modifier keys (e.g. on an ergo board they could be put on a thumb, not sure at what profile). And using DSA deep dish keys for either F/J or maybe for all 8 "home" keys

http://keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/DSSFamily.pdf

« Last Edit: Thu, 04 September 2014, 04:59:45 by jacobolus »

Offline Puddsy

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 11:34:03 »
this is that contoured SA, right?

I think I've seen something like it, but never it in particular.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 11:36:17 »
I haven't but that's interesting. Do they sell singles like they do with DCS?
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 11:37:03 »
I didn't see anything on their inventory sheet
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Offline Lurch

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 11:58:49 »
Never seen in person but that is pretty interesting.
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Offline taylordcraig

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 12:38:15 »
DSS you say?
Someone get some pictures up here.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 18:40:54 »
More complete concept:


I think this would be more comfortable/ergonomic than any currently available flat keyboard.

(Might be better to use SA row 2 for the number row, especially on keyboards without an F row, as shown in the image at the top of the thread.)
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 September 2014, 18:42:56 by jacobolus »

Offline Vibex

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 18:43:41 »
Looks like a pretty cool profile, would love to try it out.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 03 September 2014, 19:50:36 »
Iím going to see if I can get MassDrop to order a handful of every possible family/row of 1x1 cherry MX key signature plastics supports, so that we can experiment a bit with mixing/matching families. Iíll report back if I learn anything interesting.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 04 September 2014, 03:52:16 »
I think something a bit similar can be accomplished actually with DCS caps (though I still like the flipped DSS spacebar):



The key here is skipping row 3 (the traditional home row) so that we get an additional height step between rows as we reach upward. Thereís no real equivalent for SA row 1, but I think thatís okay.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 08 September 2014, 04:39:00 »
Quoting myself from a Deskthority thread:

The hybrid profile is better because there is an increased vertical step between the home row and each row further back. Hereís a diagram showing a bit better.


(note this shows SA row 2 on the number row, rather than the SA row 3 shown above, and a non-flipped DSS row 1 for the Q row; I need to test some of these in person to decide exactly what set works best)

The idea is, as you unbend your finger (extend the two distal joints) to reach further-away rows, the fingertip naturally travels in a direction upward and outward. Therefore, having the further keys be at the same height as the home row keys requires you to reach down by either moving your hand or flexing your first finger joint, the former of which is slow especially if you need to type keys on different rows with the same hand and the latter of which reduces the strength available for pressing the key and I suspect increases fatigue for keys with long travel. (It would be nice to actually have some proper scientific evidence here, unfortunately all the studies Iíve seen on related subjects are pretty crappy.)

Anyway, by raising the height of the further away keys, you make them easier to reach. The closer rows, by contrast, are reached by flexing mainly the second finger joint, and I donít think they benefit much from being lower. (Though again it would be nice to see some comprehensive empirical testing.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 September 2014, 13:01:37 by jacobolus »

Offline Oobly

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 September 2014, 05:15:52 »
The alphas are the most important to have contoured, the number row less so and the F row profile almost doesn't matter.

My reasoning is this: For the alphas you can reach them all without moving your hands, just curling / extending your fingers. When reaching for further rows such as the F keys, I find my hands moving upwards along with my fingers, so the profile actually doesn't matter as much since you're already doing a "slow" movement in order to reach them. Even some of the number keys require this hand movement.

So IMHO, SA profile in 3-1-2-3-4-3 is a good set of angles to use. It allows improvement in "reachability" for all the alphas and some numbers while the keys you have to move your hands to reach are not contoured since it's not so important. Row 3 on the bottom row is fine since you use your thumb for the Alt keys and have to move your hands to use your pinkies with Ctrl.

With your DSS / SA hybrid setup I feel that the QWER row caps are too flat, not angled enough for the extended fingers.

I do like your modified DCS profile, though. I always felt the QWER row of DCS is too flat.

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 08 September 2014, 13:06:08 »
To be honest I think the angle of the top is somewhat irrelevant, though itís nice to have closer-than-home-row keys angled upward at the near side so itís easier to catch them with a finger curled toward the body.

The more important issue, I think, is the height of the top of the key.

Since DSA and SA profile both are basically completely flat from one row to the next, they cause unnecessary extra reaching for further-away keys. Just angling the top of the key doesnít really make any improvement in ďreachabilityĒ, IMO.

However, perhaps unflipping the DSS row 1 key and using SA row 2 instead of 3 would allay your concern about the key-top angles:


It would also always be possible to jump directly to SA row 1 for the number row, but I think the angle at the top of the key then becomes too steep. Weíll have to see what itís like in practice if/when I can get some examples of these.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 September 2014, 17:09:09 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 11 September 2014, 15:48:39 »
Aha, so apparently SP has ďretiredĒ the DSS profile. Iím not totally sure what that means (maybe the molds are broken / worn out? maybe there was just no demand?), but it might be impossible to actually get any of these.

Thereís still the SS profile which could be interesting, but itís not as useful for mixing/matching with DSA/SA, IMO.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 22 September 2014, 19:17:38 »
Halvar on Deskthority took a picture of a beam spring board from the side for me. http://deskthority.net/post184754.html#p184754

Hereís a comparison of his picture with SPís PDF about DSS profile:


Pretty close!

Someone else on Deskthority speculated (and I think it seems entirely plausible) that SA profile was originally intended for use on switches with slanted stems (like maybe Cherry M7 or M9 switches? Or one of the various other slanted cruciform linear switches? Or perhaps originally SA was used with other keycap mounts entirely, with a cruciform option only added later); on such switches SA profile would be a pretty close match for the IBM beam spring profile.

That would better explain why SA profile seems fairly unergonomic when used on MX switches.
« Last Edit: Mon, 22 September 2014, 19:22:22 by jacobolus »

Offline Oobly

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 02:56:14 »
...

That would better explain why SA profile seems fairly unergonomic when used on MX switches.

I'd say this is a rather personal thing and quite dependent on how you angle your board, as I find them better than DCS:




I think in order to get the keycap height staggering you are seeking, try making a staggered backplate with the switches themselves mounted at different heights. That way you can fit any modern keycap profile on and have the staggering you're after.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 September 2014, 03:12:07 by Oobly »
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: has anyone ever seen SPís DSS profile in person? (also: keycap family mixing)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 23 September 2014, 03:31:18 »
I'd say this is a rather personal thing and quite dependent on how you angle your board, as I find them better than DCS:
I like spherical caps a lot too. Iím going to try SS when I can.

Quote
I think in order to get the keycap height staggering you are seeking, try making a staggered backplate with the switches themselves mounted at different heights. That way you can fit any modern keycap profile on and have the staggering you're after.
Yep, Iíve also been working on that. (By CNC cutting a plate/case out of wood.)

Offline pixelpusher

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Offline jacobolus

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Offline NoPunIn10Did

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Oh wow, thatís awesome.

Show Image


https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dss-dolch-keyset/

PMK's DSS Dolch is one of the only easily purchaseable keycap sets that's sculpted, labeled, and fully compatible with an Ergodoxian setup.  I've really loved it. 

While we're at it, here's a view from the other side:



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