Author Topic: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2  (Read 71049 times)

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 11:52:19 »

Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #101 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 12:09:03 »
In fact, after thinking about it, the best layout for a very popular model F would simply be the layout of the SSK as is. Simply amazing. Not saying a 60% like it would not be nice, but I think that the SSK layout is a more logic option.
Yep. Either SSK or that 80% layout we all seen here.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #102 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 13:05:27 »

I'm moved to the capital. Because, yes. Not Somalia, but it'll be second Abhazia. Or Pridnestrov'ye. I just don't want to live under rule of some petty warlord with his henchmen. And, generally, Russia made all of us more pro-western than USA ever could :)

let me shamelessly plug Taoism here, since we don't believe in unnecessary and unnatural actions. I think not poking one's nose into others' affairs and not launching human rights jihads make the world a better place.

If the USA didn't invade and intervene everywhere it wouldn't have to keep dealing with the failed consequences. EG CIA supported the Shah, then funded Osama bin Laden, then they overthrew Saddam and supplied Iraqi army and Syrian rebels with US weapons which are now in the hands of ISIS.

And of course Russia made the same type of mistakes. I don't think anyone in Ukraine is about to embrace Slavic brotherhood anymore with the country whose fate has traditionally been intertwined with them.

And the Muslims also made the same mistakes. If conservative Muslims didn't keep donating money to support radicals, the Western powers won't keep sending troops into Muslim countries. And if the radicals didn't keep making trouble and incurring the general loathing of non-Musims everywhere, Muslims won't be bombed.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline exitfire401

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #103 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 13:29:48 »

I'm moved to the capital. Because, yes. Not Somalia, but it'll be second Abhazia. Or Pridnestrov'ye. I just don't want to live under rule of some petty warlord with his henchmen. And, generally, Russia made all of us more pro-western than USA ever could :)

let me shamelessly plug Taoism here, since we don't believe in unnecessary and unnatural actions. I think not poking one's nose into others' affairs and not launching human rights jihads make the world a better place.

If the USA didn't invade and intervene everywhere it wouldn't have to keep dealing with the failed consequences. EG CIA supported the Shah, then funded Osama bin Laden, then they overthrew Saddam and supplied Iraqi army and Syrian rebels with US weapons which are now in the hands of ISIS.

And of course Russia made the same type of mistakes. I don't think anyone in Ukraine is about to embrace Slavic brotherhood anymore with the country whose fate has traditionally been intertwined with them.

And the Muslims also made the same mistakes. If conservative Muslims didn't keep donating money to support radicals, the Western powers won't keep sending troops into Muslim countries. And if the radicals didn't keep making trouble and incurring the general loathing of non-Musims everywhere, Muslims won't be bombed.

Hey, glad to see mougrim's doing alright, but this conversation should really be taken to PM as there's no context that's relevant to this thread. Thanks guys!
Boards: Kingsaver Complicated Blue Alps |Sprit 60% Transparent MX Clears in Gateron housings with 62g gold Sprit springs lubed and RGB color shifting LEDs | Ducky Shine Zone MX Black with Blue LEDs | Realforce 10AE Variable Silenced

B/S/T thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55351.0

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Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #104 on: Mon, 29 September 2014, 15:32:38 »
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Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #105 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 13:20:25 »
A working XTant will be at the monthly keyboard meetup in San Francisco - October 25.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63165.msg

Attendees will get to see/handle most of the parts that will go into the kits.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #106 on: Sat, 04 October 2014, 23:55:52 »
A working XTant will be at the monthly keyboard meetup in San Francisco - October 25.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63165.msg

Attendees will get to see/handle most of the parts that will go into the kits.

This should be incredible for those who are attending.

Most fortunately (or unfortunately) I killed 2 XTs at one point which caused me to buy 1 more xt. Now I have 3, all have been finally restored to full working condition... and I'm not using any of them! I actually just pulled the keycaps off one to give to Dorkvader. (Did a nice dye job). I am waiting for enthusiasts to start work on an Xtant with a layout that I want.

BTW that XT casing is really a piece of work. I wish modern keyboards could be as solid. Even my 'well built' Deck Legend is like a toy in comparison, having only 1 metal plate. And my Tipro (with top and bottom metal plates) is still behind the XT and its 3 metal plates.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #107 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 04:09:48 »
A working XTant will be at the monthly keyboard meetup in San Francisco - October 25.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63165.msg

Attendees will get to see/handle most of the parts that will go into the kits.

This should be incredible for those who are attending.

Most fortunately (or unfortunately) I killed 2 XTs at one point which caused me to buy 1 more xt. Now I have 3, all have been finally restored to full working condition... and I'm not using any of them! I actually just pulled the keycaps off one to give to Dorkvader. (Did a nice dye job). I am waiting for enthusiasts to start work on an Xtant with a layout that I want.

BTW that XT casing is really a piece of work. I wish modern keyboards could be as solid. Even my 'well built' Deck Legend is like a toy in comparison, having only 1 metal plate. And my Tipro (with top and bottom metal plates) is still behind the XT and its 3 metal plates.

Even AT keyboard not so solid ;)

P.S. Hmm... 3 unused XT... Tempting :)
IBM AT Model F, Vortexgear Race 3, AEKII (Alps Cream Damped), Metoo Zero (modded to Kailh Box Navy)

Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #108 on: Sun, 05 October 2014, 12:40:57 »
Mougrim, if you're thinking of trying to persuade me to part with my XTs, the answer is only if I recoup all costs which means it won't be a bargain. Better spend your money on a bulletproof vest, because I think instability is here to stay in your country.  :'(

That said I was only just talking to fohat and got an idea I want to talk about here.

Samwisekoi is working out how to build a keyboard casing from assembled 2D parts of cut acrylic now. It's cheaper than custom molding. He can use led spacers to support the middle of the PCB, so these are standard production parts and should be easy and cheap to get.

I think we can extend the idea to model Fs as well. Just get thicker acrylic for the weight, and use led spacers of different heights to support the curved plate. That way we don't have to fret about a lack of casings.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #109 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 02:53:02 »
That said I was only just talking to fohat and got an idea I want to talk about here.

Samwisekoi is working out how to build a keyboard casing from assembled 2D parts of cut acrylic now. It's cheaper than custom molding. He can use led spacers to support the middle of the PCB, so these are standard production parts and should be easy and cheap to get.

I think we can extend the idea to model Fs as well. Just get thicker acrylic for the weight, and use led spacers of different heights to support the curved plate. That way we don't have to fret about a lack of casings.

You right. It's a lot cheaper - and I bet it could be even made look nice. If it could be done, then all that left is barrels... Well, and keycaps, but for that we have Unicomp.
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Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #110 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 10:42:53 »
Good case designs are needed as we try to expand this beyond the current XTant. I have always intended to partner with others to help restore this switch to the prominence it deserves. I would not have been able to do anything without the DPH and xwhatsit's controllers. I'll send Samwisekoi a PM.

We might see what Signature Plastics would need to start making copies of the barrels and hammers/flippies. The tricky thing about the hammers/flippies is that they need to be made of a plastic capable of carrying a capacitive charge.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #111 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 11:42:58 »
We might see what Signature Plastics would need to start making copies of the barrels and hammers/flippies.
Very large amounts of money for tooling?

Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #112 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 12:10:55 »
Good case designs are needed as we try to expand this beyond the current XTant. I have always intended to partner with others to help restore this switch to the prominence it deserves. I would not have been able to do anything without the DPH and xwhatsit's controllers. I'll send Samwisekoi a PM.

We might see what Signature Plastics would need to start making copies of the barrels and hammers/flippies. The tricky thing about the hammers/flippies is that they need to be made of a plastic capable of carrying a capacitive charge.

DO the patent documents give any clues what kind of plastics these are and how to manufacture them? I would think that if IBM wanted any patent protection it would be quite specific.

I also wonder. If we have so many tech guys on geekhack, how come no one has any access to IBM engineers. Surely someone here knows someone on facebook who can introduce him to someone who worked on the original keyboards. These guys aren't dead. They're probably grumpy retirees now with nothing better to do, and we could dispatch fohat to talk to them about vinyl recordings or Elvis until they crack and spill the (magical capacitative) beans. :p
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #113 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 13:02:41 »
I also wonder. If we have so many tech guys on geekhack, how come no one has any access to IBM engineers. Surely someone here knows someone on facebook who can introduce him to someone who worked on the original keyboards. These guys aren't dead. They're probably grumpy retirees now with nothing better to do, and we could dispatch fohat to talk to them about vinyl recordings or Elvis until they crack and spill the (magical capacitative) beans. :p
IIRC Parak got in touch with one or two of those guys and they basically had no interest in talking to him.

Give it another shot though, can’t hurt to try! :)

Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #114 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 13:19:36 »
I also wonder. If we have so many tech guys on geekhack, how come no one has any access to IBM engineers. Surely someone here knows someone on facebook who can introduce him to someone who worked on the original keyboards. These guys aren't dead. They're probably grumpy retirees now with nothing better to do, and we could dispatch fohat to talk to them about vinyl recordings or Elvis until they crack and spill the (magical capacitative) beans. :p
IIRC Parak got in touch with one or two of those guys and they basically had no interest in talking to him.

Give it another shot though, can’t hurt to try! :)

I was only half joking about using fohat and taking about vinyl records/ Elvis.

The original engineers should be at least 60 by now. IBM is no longer manufacturing and they may have been forced to retire early and are grumpy. You really need someone from the same age group with similar interests to engage them. When they feel you are not there to milk them for information, they might open up.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #115 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:10:38 »
I'm pretty sure that the magic ingredient is carbon black or graphite. I'm not sure how much, but think it is unlikely that someone will remember the correct ratio 35 years later.

Offline JPG

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #116 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:16:21 »
I'm pretty sure that the magic ingredient is carbon black or graphite. I'm not sure how much, but think it is unlikely that someone will remember the correct ratio 35 years later.


Maybe we need to send a sample to a lab for getting the exact composition? I don't know how much this kind of test cost and I don't expect it to be cheap, but with enough interest we could probably manage some way to split the bill if it's not crazy.


Probably is kinda crazy, but well...
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Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #117 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:50:20 »
This technical paper suggests 15% carbon black by weight for 3D printed sensors. Seems like a good place to start.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0049365

Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #118 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 14:43:21 »
I'm pretty sure that the magic ingredient is carbon black or graphite. I'm not sure how much, but think it is unlikely that someone will remember the correct ratio 35 years later.
I doubt we need correct ratio. I we used original controller - then yes, but in our case...
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Offline orihalcon

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #119 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 15:09:15 »
Hmm, seems like the biggest hurdle for end users will be the controller.  Seems like a waste not to re-use the original since it would not require assembly other than reconnecting wires, and it does work with Soarer's Converter which is relatively inexpensive, easier to program, and I believe has more features.  Has any testing been done looking at whether more scan codes can be generated using the a new matrix and the old controller?  Doesn't really matter what the scan codes are as long as they are unique since they can be remapped with the Soarer's Converter.

Only other thing I would change is to make the navigation block area a regular 4x4 matrix with single 1x width keys with a capsense pad under each one.  That way, The builder can install whatever they want there.  Any unused barrel holes could be covered with a mask of plastic or other material.  Alternatively to masking, a few different top plate configurations could be made available.  Only difference would be how many holes are cut into it.  The PCB would be the same.

If you look into making custom cases, the overall plate width could be reduced, and you could go back down to standard 1x width keys for the control block area also.

One last "wish" feature would be something like an erase-ease key, where the space bar would be split so that you could choose to re-assign either half to be a backspace key. You'd basically have to cut a Model M spacebar using a dremel or similar so that one barrel receptacle is on each side.  Putting one more cap sense pad underneath that second barrel that is normally used to stabilize would make this attemptable at least.  Such a mod hasn't been possible up until now because there is no sensor underneath that second barrel. 

Offline geniekid

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #120 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 15:38:36 »
I think it was mentioned in the OP that wcass couldn't even get the original controller working after detaching it due to the finicky nature of analog controllers.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #121 on: Tue, 07 October 2014, 15:47:58 »
Hmm, seems like the biggest hurdle for end users will be the controller.  Seems like a waste not to re-use the original since it would not require assembly other than reconnecting wires, and it does work with Soarer's Converter which is relatively inexpensive, easier to program, and I believe has more features.  Has any testing been done looking at whether more scan codes can be generated using the a new matrix and the old controller?  Doesn't really matter what the scan codes are as long as they are unique since they can be remapped with the Soarer's Converter.

Only other thing I would change is to make the navigation block area a regular 4x4 matrix with single 1x width keys with a capsense pad under each one.  That way, The builder can install whatever they want there.  Any unused barrel holes could be covered with a mask of plastic or other material.  Alternatively to masking, a few different top plate configurations could be made available.  Only difference would be how many holes are cut into it.  The PCB would be the same.

If you look into making custom cases, the overall plate width could be reduced, and you could go back down to standard 1x width keys for the control block area also.

One last "wish" feature would be something like an erase-ease key, where the space bar would be split so that you could choose to re-assign either half to be a backspace key. You'd basically have to cut a Model M spacebar using a dremel or similar so that one barrel receptacle is on each side.  Putting one more cap sense pad underneath that second barrel that is normally used to stabilize would make this attemptable at least.  Such a mod hasn't been possible up until now because there is no sensor underneath that second barrel. 

It would be a waste to not re-use the original, but unfortunately it is not possible.

Ok well it's possible, but it'd be really super difficult.

You see, the IBM controllers have a lookup table for the proper values of voltage (capacitance) change for each switch location. In order to re-use the original, we would have to make a PCB such that every single value is the same. This would involve a huge amount of time, money and prototyping, especially since the capacitive technology is from the 1960's, finding people to help with it is about impossible. We'd have to do it all on our own with no expertise. There are some people who, through lots of experimentation, have become somewhat accustomed to the ins and outs of IBM capacitave PCBs but it's still really tough.

Another problem is that the XT controller is not on a separate PCB from the rest. So you'd have to saw it off and then sand off the soldermask and solder to the traces. No fun. This might be an even bigger reason to not use the original PCB than the above.

The controller isn't really the hold up, in my opinion. There are currently at least two different replacement controller designs. A large GB would implement one of them on the PCB with a pick&place machine doing all the hard work. This would allow for a very easy time for kit builders. Even if the controller is on the PCB as it is for the original XT, it wouldn't be too bad, though it might be more expensive.

It's a great idea to have the nav cluster be a little more friendly, but it makes sense why it's not. This is because the PC/XT keyboard only has 83 keys. I believe this design requires 84, so a single "parts" keyboard can provide enough for 83 kits. If you fill up the area, then you will need to purchase two PC/XT keyboards as "parts", and you end up with a much lower ratio of "currently working" to "just another parts unit", which is a shame. I think having the option for more keys in that area is a good idea for people like me with multiple "parts" units already, but having it be the "standard" probably isn't great. Having different top cases will increase the price for everyone, but it will afford some more elegance in the design and more flexability. It's a good idea, and will have to be considered when the group-buy happens.

If you are keen on having a split spacebar, I would like to recommend getting a wheelwriter keyboard. The holes in the spacebar and "code" key line up perfectly with a standard IBM bottom row, replacing the "alt" key. You then have access to two thumb keys. The only issue is that you will have to move one of the stabilizer clips for the spacebar over a little for it to fully engage. THis is a very easy mod to do, only requiring a little glue and some time. I am a big fan of the split spacebar, and especially given IBM's excellent compatibility, think others shoudl look into it as well. Another option is to have a different bottom-row layout and option for multiple "code" keys, but it would require a separate PCB and plate for that layout, increasing cost.

Overall, you bring up a lot of good points. I hope you are satisfied with the explanation I've offered.

Offline cinnamonrollz

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #122 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 15:30:49 »
I have to get an xt now. Any possibility of this being able to be stuffed in a bigfoot case?

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #123 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 16:47:24 »
I'm going to throw in my vote for an SSK layout. Mine would be this. I like the availability of keys (and the symmetry) better than the other layouts. If we used this, we could re-use Model M keys instead of having to go to Unicomp for them.

I'm not limited on space and that 80% layout, while cool, just seems too cramped for me. I would much prefer an SSK-eque layout to the 80%. I would even love a full sized board if that was an option.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 17:17:10 »
I'm going to throw in my vote for an SSK layout. Mine would be this. I like the availability of keys (and the symmetry) better than the other layouts. If we used this, we could re-use Model M keys instead of having to go to Unicomp for them.

I'm not limited on space and that 80% layout, while cool, just seems too cramped for me. I would much prefer an SSK-eque layout to the 80%. I would even love a full sized board if that was an option.

That 103 key layout is nice - nothing wrong with a standard ANSI full size with Win/Menu keys.  That would be my second choice.

First choice would be a Kishsaver / HHKB layout.  Kishsaver if you use all 62 keys, HHKB if you dump the bottom outside modifiers.
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Offline REVENGE

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #125 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 21:24:02 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #126 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:01:25 »
I'm going to throw in my vote for an SSK layout. Mine would be this. I like the availability of keys (and the symmetry) better than the other layouts. If we used this, we could re-use Model M keys instead of having to go to Unicomp for them.

I'm not limited on space and that 80% layout, while cool, just seems too cramped for me. I would much prefer an SSK-eque layout to the 80%. I would even love a full sized board if that was an option.

That 103 key layout is nice - nothing wrong with a standard ANSI full size with Win/Menu keys.  That would be my second choice.

First choice would be a Kishsaver / HHKB layout.  Kishsaver if you use all 62 keys, HHKB if you dump the bottom outside modifiers.

Once again I plug a matrix layout. There are some guys discussing matrix layouts on other threads, come on man, come here right away and put in your votes for a matrix layout!!!
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #127 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:10:46 »
I have to get an xt now. Any possibility of this being able to be stuffed in a bigfoot case?
There is a very good chance (i was asked about this before) but i'm not 100% sure. Maybe 90% sure.

Offline 0100010

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #128 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:11:33 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?

Thought M springs could work on F pivot plates?
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Offline 0100010

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #129 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:12:07 »
I'm going to throw in my vote for an SSK layout. Mine would be this. I like the availability of keys (and the symmetry) better than the other layouts. If we used this, we could re-use Model M keys instead of having to go to Unicomp for them.

I'm not limited on space and that 80% layout, while cool, just seems too cramped for me. I would much prefer an SSK-eque layout to the 80%. I would even love a full sized board if that was an option.

Have an example layout we could look at?
That 103 key layout is nice - nothing wrong with a standard ANSI full size with Win/Menu keys.  That would be my second choice.

First choice would be a Kishsaver / HHKB layout.  Kishsaver if you use all 62 keys, HHKB if you dump the bottom outside modifiers.

Once again I plug a matrix layout. There are some guys discussing matrix layouts on other threads, come on man, come here right away and put in your votes for a matrix layout!!!

Have an example layout we could look at?
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #130 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:17:21 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?

Yes, Unicomp. F and M springs are the same.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #131 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:20:02 »
I'm going to throw in my vote for an SSK layout. Mine would be this. I like the availability of keys (and the symmetry) better than the other layouts. If we used this, we could re-use Model M keys instead of having to go to Unicomp for them.

I'm not limited on space and that 80% layout, while cool, just seems too cramped for me. I would much prefer an SSK-eque layout to the 80%. I would even love a full sized board if that was an option.

Keep in mind you will have to gut two different PC/XT keyboards to get enough parts to make that layout. That's one reason we have stuck with 83/84 keys.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #132 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:27:21 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?
Yes, Unicomp. F and M springs are the same.
Wait, what? The springs are very obviously different...

Offline HPE1000

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #133 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:35:02 »
Yeah I thought F springs were longer and thinner than M springs.

Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #134 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:52:35 »
I'm almost sure that my next layout will be 60% and will take/use either XT or AT type barrels. The reason for this is that 60% uses only 64 barrels. This will create the surplus of barrels and pivot plates necessary to support designs that need more than 82 barrels. A copy of the SSK would an need an XT plus 8 barrels and 3 pivot plates.

Offline wcass

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #135 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 23:10:09 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?
Yes, Unicomp. F and M springs are the same.
Wait, what? The springs are very obviously different...
OK, the number of turns is a little different - 28 for the M, 32 for the F. The inner diameter of the spring is the same and the length is close enough that i can't tell the difference on a mixed board.
79453-0

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #136 on: Sat, 11 October 2014, 23:46:03 »
For extra barrels and pivot plates, I wouldn't mind buying two XTs and distributing the extra bits to people who need them. The whole situation does seem wasteful though, junking everything but the barrels and pivot plates.

And, I do understand the need to limit keys because of the sourcing, but hopefully, we'll figure out an alternative to scrapping boards and be able to build bigger boards without any guilt.
               SOON: IN PROGRESS:

I lie all the time.... I really don't even like keyboards

Offline REVENGE

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #137 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 01:28:07 »
wcass, have you found a supplier for replacement springs?
Yes, Unicomp. F and M springs are the same.
Wait, what? The springs are very obviously different...
OK, the number of turns is a little different - 28 for the M, 32 for the F. The inner diameter of the spring is the same and the length is close enough that i can't tell the difference on a mixed board.
(Attachment Link)
From this picture, it appears as if the M spring is using a thicker gauge of wire than the F spring. It's obviously more important to have working springs of some variety, but accurately replicating the feel of the F is probably non-trivially spring dependent.
◕ ‿ ◕

Offline jacobolus

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #138 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 02:52:36 »
The M spring is very obviously stiffer; I personally suspect that the spring different accounts for much (most?) of the difference in tactile feel between the two types of switches, and think a model M with model F springs would be substantially improved.

Offline mougrim

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #139 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 02:58:14 »
The M spring is very obviously stiffer; I personally suspect that the spring different accounts for much (most?) of the difference in tactile feel between the two types of switches, and think a model M with model F springs would be substantially improved.
It sure stiffer - both in original M and in Unicomp ones. I like F feeling better.
IBM AT Model F, Vortexgear Race 3, AEKII (Alps Cream Damped), Metoo Zero (modded to Kailh Box Navy)

Offline berserkfan

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #140 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 03:05:25 »
I'm almost sure that my next layout will be 60% and will take/use either XT or AT type barrels. The reason for this is that 60% uses only 64 barrels. This will create the surplus of barrels and pivot plates necessary to support designs that need more than 82 barrels. A copy of the SSK would an need an XT plus 8 barrels and 3 pivot plates.

Truly a brilliant idea
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Nuum

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #141 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 05:28:06 »
If I may, I'd like to propose a layout for one of your future custom Model Fs:
79470-0
I think it has kind of a oldschool vibe to it, but with the functionality of a modern Keyboard. The placement of a Fn key, etc. could of course be changed. Unicomp should be able to make that 5.75u spacebar.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 October 2014, 05:32:56 by Nuum »

Offline EppyKay

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #142 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 08:43:32 »
If I may, I'd like to propose a layout for one of your future custom Model Fs:
(Attachment Link)
I think it has kind of a oldschool vibe to it, but with the functionality of a modern Keyboard. The placement of a Fn key, etc. could of course be changed. Unicomp should be able to make that 5.75u spacebar.


That layout looks like a JD40, a FC660c/m, and a Model F had a baby.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #143 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 09:24:00 »

The whole situation does seem wasteful though, junking everything but the barrels and pivot plates.


Wait. I thought that we were using everything but the internal plates. Doesn't it go back into the XT case and re-use most of the keys?
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Offline 0100010

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #144 on: Sun, 12 October 2014, 11:49:45 »
I think there are two things.

1 - is the original XTant project, of which wcass will have some kits available soon, to perform the conversion from the original 83 key layout, to the newer layout.

2 - is, now that a custom Model F barrel plate can be designed and cut, along with a custom PCB - and we have xwhatsits and the DPH capacitive USB controllers - one could pretty much build a Model F in whatever layout one desires // the only limiter is cost, where it is always cheaper to do runs of plates / PCBs in bulk.
  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline orihalcon

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 11:42:18 »
Ah, I guess I didn't know that the original controller would not be usable with a different cap sense layout because of how it works.  Just shows what I know!

Anyhow, I've made the initial investment to have some Xwhatsit's converters made for a bunch of model F keyboards that I have and want to convert before selling.  Assuming everything goes to plan, I'm thinking I will have extra converters made and make them available for sale for a similar price (between $45 and $50) with USA shipping included. 

Will ask Wcass if he might be interested in selling kits that include the Xwhatsit converter for $40 extra or something.  That would save me a lot in shipping costs over shipping individually if he could ship them along with the rest of the kit when it is made available. Just something that I thought I would throw out there. 

The controller could even be shipped pre-configured for the standard XTant layout so that no initial configuration would be required!

Any interest?

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:08:45 »
I think there are two things.

1 - is the original XTant project, of which wcass will have some kits available soon, to perform the conversion from the original 83 key layout, to the newer layout.

2 - is, now that a custom Model F barrel plate can be designed and cut, along with a custom PCB - and we have xwhatsits and the DPH capacitive USB controllers - one could pretty much build a Model F in whatever layout one desires // the only limiter is cost, where it is always cheaper to do runs of plates / PCBs in bulk.

What is the DPH capacitive USB controllers?

And, gosh, I love this place for all the great stuff that people create.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #147 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 15:09:19 »
I think there are two things.

1 - is the original XTant project, of which wcass will have some kits available soon, to perform the conversion from the original 83 key layout, to the newer layout.

2 - is, now that a custom Model F barrel plate can be designed and cut, along with a custom PCB - and we have xwhatsits and the DPH capacitive USB controllers - one could pretty much build a Model F in whatever layout one desires // the only limiter is cost, where it is always cheaper to do runs of plates / PCBs in bulk.

What are the DPH capacitive USB controllers?  Is there a thread on this?

And, gosh, I love this place for all the great stuff that people create.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline 0100010

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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 16 October 2014, 17:35:58 »
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing