Model F Question

[spuriousgeorge]

I'm interested in capacitive buckling springs, and have seen a few model F's for sale on eBay, but several of them came with warnings about incompatibility with modern operating systems.

I know some Model F's must work with newer computers (a number of Geekhackers list them as their daily drivers) but am not totally sure which ones.

Which should be avoided and which should be sought after?

[spuriousgeorge]

Am I right in thinking that the ones with XT interface are the ones to avoid?

[JPG]

They all will work (as long as not broken) but they will all need a converter to be able to plug them in a modern computer and be recognized. Soarer made one. Here's the link to it:


http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.msg335414#msg335414


edit: The model AT can be used with a passive converter, but it is suggested to use a Soarer that will have more features and be usb.

[spuriousgeorge]

Thanks, JPG!

Have you built one of these converters yourself?

How hard would it be for someone without much mechanical knowhow?

[handystack]

Soarer's converter is extremely easy to build. I think the most difficult part is determining the pinout of the connector you are soldering onto it. I found the pinout chart included with the documentation to be accurate. since the teensy 2.0 is so small, it is possible to mount it inside the keyboard case for a very clean look too

[Krogenar]

If you're really interested in using one of these keyboards with a modern PC, you'll have to build a converter. Some people put the converter right inside the case of the keyboard, others put it in a project box. If you've done some light soldering and electronics work (or are willing to take the chance to learn) it can be a very rewarding experience to get one of these old keyboards working again.

[fohat.digs]

The Model F that came with the AT, aka 84-key, does not need any type of "converter" other than whatever incidental adapter plugs you need to get the old-style "AT" plug down to PS/2 size and/or then on to USB or whatever your motherboard is expecting.

[spuriousgeorge]

Has anyone out there bought a Model F with XT interface? It seems pretty tough to sort the working ones from the duds, since most eBay sellers can't test them, meaning you don't really know what you've got until you outfit it with a Soarer's converter and test it yourself.

Any tips?

[dorkvader]

Has anyone out there bought a Model F with XT interface? It seems pretty tough to sort the working ones from the duds, since most eBay sellers can't test them, meaning you don't really know what you've got until you outfit it with a Soarer's converter and test it yourself.

Any tips?

Hard to say, other than most should be working. The keyboard itself in very durable. Most sellers can test the board to make sure all the switches buckle properly. After that, as long as the controller part of the PCB is not damaged in some way, it should just work.

There are some ebay sellers with an IBM PC or XT that can just test them on that. I always thought it was unnecessary: reports of non-working units are uncommon.

And even if it is broken, the KB is useful for parts. Wcass is making an XTant project to reuse the parts in a more worthy layout. Other Fs will work directly with the new controller by desoldering the controller and replacing it with a new one. (once it's done.)

It might be useful to note the 122 will technically work (with limited functionality) with just a cable swap. The soraer adapter conversion is the preferred technique as you get full functionality from it (with a few exceptions, some of the "not used" pads that support a possible switch in the location don't appear to send useful scancodes at all, this is only an issue for people who perform serious mods to the KB and will likely be just replacing the controller anyway)

[berserkfan]

George, just a little warning

Model Fs DO break down. I know, I have a total of FOUR screwed up Model Fs.

My most ridiculous issue was with an F AT. I turned it upside down and tried to unscrew it. Couldn't open it. The tabs held firm and I didn't dare break it. Turned it right side up - and the spacebar had fallen out! As of now, I still haven't put it back, because I just don't feel like it.

In my Taoist belief system, there is this concept called yuan, or fate/destiny. One who lacks the correct destiny/fate with something can never attain oneness with his target.

I clearly lack destiny when it comes to Model Fs. So if you are equally cursed, you will buy a Model F and it will come to you with one key not working or the space bar will fall out or you won't make it work no matter what.

[spuriousgeorge]

Thank you guys for such thoughtful and helpful responses. There's so much out there about the Model M, and relatively little about the Model F, so it's nice to be able to ask questions of Geekhackers with firsthand Model F experience.

I'll probably end up watching eBay for a while before buying just to get a feel for prices and conditions.

dorkvader, I'm new to soldering, which tools would you recommend I pick up in order to take on a project like Soarer's converter?

[spuriousgeorge]

Thanks for the heads up, berserkfan.

I've been reading different translations of the Chuang Tzu these past few months and just loving them.

[Hellmark]

I bought an XT a few months back, and built a convertor. The issue I had was with the teensy, where one of the pins wasn't working. Luckily it had a second one, so got it working.

[Krogenar]

I clearly lack destiny when it comes to Model Fs. So if you are equally cursed, you will buy a Model F and it will come to you with one key not working or the space bar will fall out or you won't make it work no matter what.

I bought a Model F 122 about a year ago or so -- pristine condition, and yet one (naturally, just one) keycap wouldn't actuate. I did everything I thought of to do with Model M's (with which I'm more familiar) and I was really starting to despair -- nothing would make this keycap actuate properly. Then I queried this community, and rknize and fohat, and others helped me get it working again. Apparently, these keys are just a bit more finicky. I had to reinsert the keycap while holding the entire keyboard nearly upside down!

But it worked. These guys can be tricky, but they're worth it.

[spuriousgeorge]

Yeah, not as many people have them, but almost everyone who does thinks they're great. I'm going to have to try one sooner or later.

[berserkfan]

Yeah, not as many people have them, but almost everyone who does thinks they're great. I'm going to have to try one sooner or later.

Even I think they are great. I use a customized F XT that was not screwed up in transit or by me.

I've painted it, sanded off paint, and repainted it for fun. It feels Solid with a capital S.

that said, there is now an auction for an F XT ultra cheap. Go check the Great Deals thread; it was posted by jdcarpe.

[berserkfan]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54601.0

OK, supriousgeorge, here's JDCarpe's link for a model F!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111273220393

5 buck winning bid currently, 1 day 2 hours left. I don't want to see this go for under 15!

[E TwentyNine]

For someone starting with an F, I wouldn't recommend the XT.   The layout is just horrible, plus the extra work needed for conversion.

Spend the extra and wait for an the AT.  If you hate it you can certainly resell it for what you paid (if not more as AT prices seemed to have come down a bit of late).

[spuriousgeorge]

Thanks for the link, berserkfan. It does look like a good deal, provided I would actually like the layout, and provided I could get it working again.

Although the lack of space between the numpad and the rest of the keyboard gives me pause.

Does that ever throw you when typing?

[spuriousgeorge]

I totally hear what you're saying, E TwentyNine. The XT layout is a little funky, with all the keys kind of mushed together, although the Space Saving keyboard you converted into an XT sounds amazing.

How'd you pull that off?

[E TwentyNine]

I totally hear what you're saying, E TwentyNine. The XT layout is a little funky, with all the keys kind of mushed together, although the Space Saving keyboard you converted into an XT sounds amazing.

How'd you pull that off?

I'd never convert *anything* to XT format.  I converted an AT into an ANSI tenkeyless layout with ALT keys using some simple cutting and key rearranging/removal.

Details here:  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52379.msg1160353

[spuriousgeorge]

Sorry, I got a bit mixed up, obviously you wouldn't want to convert any keyboard to an XT protocol.

Cool mod!

[berserkfan]

Thanks for the link, berserkfan. It does look like a good deal, provided I would actually like the layout, and provided I could get it working again.

Although the lack of space between the numpad and the rest of the keyboard gives me pause.

Does that ever throw you when typing?

It took me only 1 day to get used to the format. And then I happily remapped everything to suit myself. You have a teensy when you use an F XT, so use it!

The main problem with F XT (and F AT) is actually the stiff spacebar. It's stiffer than Tactile Grays, if you want a Cherry MX comparison. Even after months of usage, I still can't get used to the spacebar.

[JPG]

Thanks for the link, berserkfan. It does look like a good deal, provided I would actually like the layout, and provided I could get it working again.

Although the lack of space between the numpad and the rest of the keyboard gives me pause.

Does that ever throw you when typing?

It took me only 1 day to get used to the format. And then I happily remapped everything to suit myself. You have a teensy when you use an F XT, so use it!

The main problem with F XT (and F AT) is actually the stiff spacebar. It's stiffer than Tactile Grays, if you want a Cherry MX comparison. Even after months of usage, I still can't get used to the spacebar.

There's a mod to make the spacebar less stiff, but it does not seem easy. I have not tried it yet (working on making my converter works first), but I intend to mod it once it's working. Someone said that it was made that stiff because the typing method at the time was to use both thumbs for the spacebar. It's that stiff.

[spuriousgeorge]

Have never tried MX Grays; I know they're supposed to be super stiff.

Just for fun I've been playing around with double-thumbing the spacebar, and you know what, it's actually sort of doable once you get used to it.

Not great but not too terribly onerous.

[spuriousgeorge]

One thing I forgot to ask in my original post was whether the guts of a Model F are held together with plastic rivets the way the guts of a Model M are. Is there such a thing as a Model F bolt mod, and if there is, is it similar to a Model M bolt mod?

[E TwentyNine]

The Model F's have curved metal plates top and bottom - one slides into the other and they lock together via tabs.

Bolt mod isn't necessary.  I've never seen it done on an AT F.

It has been done on a 122 however, guessing just to snug things up:     http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0

Sure he'll be in here soon enough to elaborate...

[fohat.digs]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0

Sure he'll be in here soon enough to elaborate...

OK. In my original guide I cut off the tabs and worked with bolts exclusively, but I have since come to the conclusion that it was a mistake.

The "sliding force fit" is a tricky thing to accomplish, but the tabs and slots ensure that everything is properly aligned and fitting properly. Time after time people whine about how hard it is, but when I inquire I find that they tried to do it without clamps. Really, a good set of clamps makes all the difference.

Now, for the F-122, after doing several of these, my current preferred method is to add 2 bolts (#4 available in a normal hardware store) one approximately between 5 and F5, and one approximately between Enter and Up Arrow. Be sure that you avoid damaging the traces in the PCB, of course. Those 2 bolts will pull the plates together at the center of the curvature, and snug up everything else nicely.

The smaller XT and AT models probably do not need bolts, but I can't remember whether or where there is a reasonable place to install them, since I have not had either of those apart in a couple of years.

[spuriousgeorge]

You guys are keyboard illuminati!

Thanks so much for all your help. Now I just need to get my hands on one of these things and give it a makeover.

[fohat.digs]

Now I just need to get my hands on one of these things and give it a makeover.

When you take a Model F apart you will recognize that it is a totally different animal from a Model M.

Really, the keys are pretty much the only parts they have in common.