Ask Cherry Anything! (3/5-Answers Have Been Provided)

[CPTBadAss]

- Would Cherry ever allow the TV show 'How its Made' to do a segment on MX switches?

Question of the thread. Give Lu_e a cookie!


On topic, can Cherry comment on their tolerances for their actuation forces? I've heard it's +/- 5g but I'm not 100%  sure that it is.

[Dubsgalore]

Good question!!

I'd also love to know why some batches of brand new switches have very noticeable friction while others don't.  It's not a matter of factory lubrication either.  I was under the impression that they come from the same factory, so I'm curious why such variation.

Also, please release some windowed Cherry novelty caps for us in Row E and Row B for us enthusiasts

Show Image

This is still very possible but very expensive  :(

[Dubsgalore]

Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

This I would love to know as well. Material in the housings as well

[Parak]

Are there Cherry Hall Effect Switch keyboards? Could we do a special order?

Seconded for my question. Any and all details, pictures, specsheets, etc, on cherry hall effect switches for keyboard use are highly desired as they haven't been seen in the wild to my knowledge.

[CorsairJames]

Thanks for all the questions everyone! I'll collect these and sort them out with the others. Once I get the answers, I'll post it here for everyone to see.

[pyro]

Will there ever be a tenkeyless keyboard from Cherry?

Will they fix ML switches at some point in the future? These are the most pleasant switches I typed on, they feel like a silky smooth low profile version of MX Brown. Unfortunately if you press a key too far off center, it won't be possible to press the key down, which is why they're pretty much unusable.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, see, that's the strange thing: I have a NIB G84-4400 and I can't replicate the off-centre binding problem. (Well, it was NIB …)

Nothing anyone has ever said would suggest that the switch quality degraded, as I seem to be the only person not to have any binding issues. They're a bit scratchy (nowhere near as smooth as MX brown, and I've even had a Cherry insider agree with me on the scratchiness, so that's not just me), but overall they're a really nice switch. I just hate the layout on the G84-4400, and the Windows key ISO G84 keyboards are even worse. The trackball isn't particularly good though, but then again it is a Logitech .... ;-)

For me, the problem isn't the switches, it's the dearth of proper full-size 104/105-key ML keyboards.

[jacobolus]

Maybe the caps used affect whether it binds when hit off-center?

[QuadGMoto]

I'm kind of late to the party, here. But here goes nothin':

Will Cherry make a lighter version of the MX Clear? (The Ergo Clear with Red/Blue/Brown springs.)

[CPTBadAss]

I'm kind of late to the party, here. But here goes nothin':

Will Cherry make a lighter version of the MX Clear? (The Ergo Clear with Red/Blue/Brown springs.)

They would but the MOQ is 750,000 switches.

[Kouni]

Holy crap that's a little high 

[SpAmRaY]

Holy crap that's a little high 

But that would also get a custom colored stem also

[noisyturtle]

Not really a question so much as a hopeful demand. Please gather your top men and have them design a light linear-clicky switch. I don't know how you would do this without the clicking 'leaf' causing some sort of tactility, but a light linear-clicky would be the pinnacle of switch technology for me as well as many other enthusiasts out there. Bonus points if the stem is purple.

Come on people let's push that MOQ. Screw stock ergo-clears!

[QuadGMoto]

I'm kind of late to the party, here. But here goes nothin':

Will Cherry make a lighter version of the MX Clear? (The Ergo Clear with Red/Blue/Brown springs.)

They would but the MOQ is 750,000 switches.

I don't mean as a special order, but as a normal production item. (It could even be given the mythical purple stem!) 

[CPTBadAss]

I'm kind of late to the party, here. But here goes nothin':

Will Cherry make a lighter version of the MX Clear? (The Ergo Clear with Red/Blue/Brown springs.)

They would but the MOQ is 750,000 switches.

I don't mean as a special order, but as a normal production item. (It could even be given the mythical purple stem!) 

That's what my post means. It can be a normal production item but there's an MOQ of 750,000. MOQ doesn't mean it's a special production item. Just that that's the minimum quantity they'd be willing to make.

[QuadGMoto]

I don't mean as a special order, but as a normal production item. (It could even be given the mythical purple stem!) 

That's what my post means. It can be a normal production item but there's an MOQ of 750,000. MOQ doesn't mean it's a special production item. Just that that's the minimum quantity they'd be willing to make.

That makes sense. Obviously, they wouldn't do it if they didn't think they could sell them. After playing with exactly that concept (I ordered a handful from a distributor) I have to say it's a beautiful setup, IMHO better than the stock Clear, Blue, and Brown. (At least for typing.) Obviously I think they could sell them. The question is whether they think so.

[Findecanor]

People these days who are young and/or not geeks don't remember typewriters or the IBM Model M and seem to prefer more quiet keyboards.
Many of us enthusiasts modify our Cherry MX keyboards with various types of dampeners between the switch and keycap to minimize noise on bottoming out, but there is no similar noise cancellation on the rebound.
At the same time, noise-dampened switches have been introduced by competitors (Topre, Matias) and some Cherry MX keyboards come with O-rings already installed (WASD, Logitech).

Are there any plans for any new Cherry MX-like keyboard switch with noise-dampening built in?

[Techno Trousers]

I wonder what the per-switch cost would be for an order of 750,000? Would Cherry answer that question? A well-heeled keyboard enthusiast could probably order it himself or herself, then resell switches to businesses and individuals. It's a great money making scheme! Is anyone out there buying this?

[justin.wu]

I want buy 100K Cherry RGB switch from Corsair , is it possible ??

haha !!

[QuadGMoto]

That's what my post means. It can be a normal production item but there's an MOQ of 750,000. MOQ doesn't mean it's a special production item. Just that that's the minimum quantity they'd be willing to make.

In researching other stuff, I stumbled across this: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Ergo_Clear.

Cherry has stated that they would actually produce Ergo Clears in a slider-colour of choice, provided that they get an order of at least 750,000 switches.

So that's what you were talking about! The light is now on.

[nubbinator]

Hopefully Corsair is still checking this thread and asking.

Here's a contentious question, what gives Whites their soft click and why are they sometimes inconsistent?  I've seen claims of all kinds, from the plastic that's used, to the size or length of the tactile leg, to lube being present, and so on.

[QuadGMoto]

In disassembling and experimenting with the switches I bought for that purpose, I noticed that the base of the switches (all plate mount) appear to be identical; at least for the blues and clears. Is this actually the case?

If so, that means it should be possible to change the switch type without doing any soldering—that is, if the top of the switch can be removed.

[ebacho]

Hopefully Corsair is still checking this thread and asking.

Here's a contentious question, what gives Whites their soft click and why are they sometimes inconsistent?  I've seen claims of all kinds, from the plastic that's used, to the size or length of the tactile leg, to lube being present, and so on.

Whites are lubed from the factory; if you jostle them around enough the lube can get displaced and dampen the click in some switches more than others.

[SpAmRaY]

In disassembling and experimenting with the switches I bought for that purpose, I noticed that the base of the switches (all plate mount) appear to be identical; at least for the blues and clears. Is this actually the case?

If so, that means it should be possible to change the switch type without doing any soldering—that is, if the top of the switch can be removed.

Many people already do just that, you can swap springs, stems etc the housings are the same.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not really a question so much as a hopeful demand. Please gather your top men and have them design a light linear-clicky switch. I don't know how you would do this without the clicking 'leaf' causing some sort of tactility …

That's difficult. Where is the energy going to come from to work the clicker? If you want to charge the clicker on the downstroke, and have mid-travel actuation, then at mid travel, the energy requirements of the switch will decrease suddenly, making it tactile. Maybe you could use the return spring to charge the clicker on the upstroke and simply trip it on the downstroke, but that would require an increase of the spring weight. Is what you're asking even possible? The only other thing I can think of is (assuming this is possible) a progressive spring (or spring arrangement) that is stiffer from half-way down, so once the clicker is charged and released, the spring becomes stiffer to cover the drop in force.

More to the point, do you believe that enough people would want this to justify the design and development costs, tooling and marketing? You may find that you can't use use any existing Cherry parts for this.

[nubbinator]

Hopefully Corsair is still checking this thread and asking.

Here's a contentious question, what gives Whites their soft click and why are they sometimes inconsistent?  I've seen claims of all kinds, from the plastic that's used, to the size or length of the tactile leg, to lube being present, and so on.

Whites are lubed from the factory; if you jostle them around enough the lube can get displaced and dampen the click in some switches more than others.

That's what I always thought, but I've seen people with more experience with them have totally different answers, hence why I wanted to hear from Cherry directly.

[ebacho]

Hopefully Corsair is still checking this thread and asking.

Here's a contentious question, what gives Whites their soft click and why are they sometimes inconsistent?  I've seen claims of all kinds, from the plastic that's used, to the size or length of the tactile leg, to lube being present, and so on.

Whites are lubed from the factory; if you jostle them around enough the lube can get displaced and dampen the click in some switches more than others.

That's what I always thought, but I've seen people with more experience with them have totally different answers, hence why I wanted to hear from Cherry directly.

You can prove it yourself, honestly.  Anyone who's done spring swaps with stock whites can tell you that there is a visible amount of lube on the legs of the slider.  If you get a blue switch and lightly lube the "legs" on the slider with krytox oil or something and switch the stock blue spring for a heavier one, it'll feel pretty much equivalent to a white switch.  You can also replicate the switches losing the click by lubing the contact points between the stem part of the slider and the part with the click legs.

[TheSoulhunter]

Why no stock ergo clears?
Why no clicky clears?

[CorsairJames]

Hi all,

I got Cherry's responses back and we're preparing them for public access for tomorrow. I got most of your questions here answered and if it works out, I don't mind doing this on a more regular basis (even a live AMA for example just for Cherry).

[HPE1000]

Exciting, I can't wait to see the answers 

[Zeal]

Oooh, excited to hear the response! 

[Photoelectric]

Hi all,

I got Cherry's responses back and we're preparing them for public access for tomorrow. I got most of your questions here answered and if it works out, I don't mind doing this on a more regular basis (even a live AMA for example just for Cherry).

Thanks for the update, James!  Will be exciting to see what Cherry had to say.

[damorgue]

Not really a question so much as a hopeful demand. Please gather your top men and have them design a light linear-clicky switch. I don't know how you would do this without the clicking 'leaf' causing some sort of tactility …

That's difficult. Where is the energy going to come from to work the clicker? If you want to charge the clicker on the downstroke, and have mid-travel actuation, then at mid travel, the energy requirements of the switch will decrease suddenly, making it tactile. Maybe you could use the return spring to charge the clicker on the upstroke and simply trip it on the downstroke, but that would require an increase of the spring weight. Is what you're asking even possible? The only other thing I can think of is (assuming this is possible) a progressive spring (or spring arrangement) that is stiffer from half-way down, so once the clicker is charged and released, the spring becomes stiffer to cover the drop in force.

Since there would have to be a sharp increase in force caused by the spring at the point of actuation as you say, designing a progressive spring to meet that would be difficult and expensive. Using two springs would however be quite cheap. Just make one spring a bit shorter than the other, so that the second spring starts to be compressed at the point of actuation?

Edit: A shorter and a longer spring of different lengths, something like this:

[Zeal]

Not really a question so much as a hopeful demand. Please gather your top men and have them design a light linear-clicky switch. I don't know how you would do this without the clicking 'leaf' causing some sort of tactility …

That's difficult. Where is the energy going to come from to work the clicker? If you want to charge the clicker on the downstroke, and have mid-travel actuation, then at mid travel, the energy requirements of the switch will decrease suddenly, making it tactile. Maybe you could use the return spring to charge the clicker on the upstroke and simply trip it on the downstroke, but that would require an increase of the spring weight. Is what you're asking even possible? The only other thing I can think of is (assuming this is possible) a progressive spring (or spring arrangement) that is stiffer from half-way down, so once the clicker is charged and released, the spring becomes stiffer to cover the drop in force.

Since there would have to be a sharp increase in force caused by the spring at the point of actuation as you say, designing a progressive spring to meet that would be difficult and expensive. Using two springs would however be quite cheap. Just make one spring a bit shorter than the other, so that the second spring starts to be compressed at the point of actuation?

Edit: A shorter and a longer spring of different lengths, something like this:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

OMG
Why has no one ever tried doing this? The amount of customization would be endless!!!

[damorgue]

Not really a question so much as a hopeful demand. Please gather your top men and have them design a light linear-clicky switch. I don't know how you would do this without the clicking 'leaf' causing some sort of tactility …

That's difficult. Where is the energy going to come from to work the clicker? If you want to charge the clicker on the downstroke, and have mid-travel actuation, then at mid travel, the energy requirements of the switch will decrease suddenly, making it tactile. Maybe you could use the return spring to charge the clicker on the upstroke and simply trip it on the downstroke, but that would require an increase of the spring weight. Is what you're asking even possible? The only other thing I can think of is (assuming this is possible) a progressive spring (or spring arrangement) that is stiffer from half-way down, so once the clicker is charged and released, the spring becomes stiffer to cover the drop in force.

Since there would have to be a sharp increase in force caused by the spring at the point of actuation as you say, designing a progressive spring to meet that would be difficult and expensive. Using two springs would however be quite cheap. Just make one spring a bit shorter than the other, so that the second spring starts to be compressed at the point of actuation?

Edit: A shorter and a longer spring of different lengths, something like this:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

OMG
Why has no one ever tried doing this? The amount of customization would be endless!!!

Making the molds for an entirely new switch type is expensive, and I don't think the market for this is very large. It took Cherry how many years to launch their new MX switch? And it is only slightly different in the housing to allow RGB LEDs or something.

I like the idea though. customization galore.

Since it needs to add a lot of force instantly at the point of actuation in this particular case , the spring needs to be preloaded. Otherwise it will increase the force from 0 if it is left with the upper end free. That is why I added something to hold the spring compressed. This further complicates it all.

[CorsairJames]

Hi all,

I have made the answers live here on our blog: http://bit.ly/1id6hUR

I also have it available as a PDF which I attached to the post in case our webpage goes down. Thanks everyone who participated in this. 

If you guys like this stuff and want to be notified every time we release something related to the RGB project, don't forget we have a newsletter here: www.corsair.com/mx-rgb (The website URL is different now because of our transition to a new site/engine).

As always, feel free to let me know of any questions here directly too.

[riotonthebay]

From the horse's mouth:

There’s no special lubing on white stem switches.

[Zeal]

What is the normal lube used on MX switches?

Sorry, but we can’t give further information here.  It’s all CHERRY magic technology know-how!

 

------

“night glow” ABS

WHAT?!

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

[Flyersfan1]

Hi all,

I have made the answers live here on our blog: http://bit.ly/1id6hUR

I also have it available as a PDF which I attached to the post in case our webpage goes down. Thanks everyone who participated in this. 

If you guys like this stuff and want to be notified every time we release something related to the RGB project, don't forget we have a newsletter here: www.corsair.com/mx-rgb (The website URL is different now because of our transition to a new site/engine).

As always, feel free to let me know of any questions here directly too.

Thanks again for doing this, really cool reading through all of the questions!

[Photekq]

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

The doubleshot black G80 keyboards were ABS. The lasered/blank black G80 keyboards were POM.

[nubbinator]

What is the normal lube used on MX switches?

Sorry, but we can’t give further information here.  It’s all CHERRY magic technology know-how!

 

------

“night glow” ABS

WHAT?!

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

Now I must see the glow in the dark ABS caps.

And the POM caps are lasered, not doubleshot.

[Zeal]

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

The doubleshot black G80 keyboards were ABS. The lasered/blank black G80 keyboards were POM.

Somehow missed that Doubleshot part in the question

What is the normal lube used on MX switches?

Sorry, but we can’t give further information here.  It’s all CHERRY magic technology know-how!

 

------

“night glow” ABS

WHAT?!

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

Now I must see the glow in the dark ABS caps.

And the POM caps are lasered, not doubleshot.

Agreed. How come we've never heard about this Glow in the Dark ABS keycaps from Cherry? Genuinely curious now...

---

Some R2 questions for Cherry:

What keyboards used Cherry MX Lock? What was the main purpose of this switch back in the day?

Which keyboards had Cherry MX Click Gray? (Muffled Spacebar switch to go with MX White) is it still in production? If not, does Cherry have a stockpile somewhere?   

---

Did Cherry skip the question regarding Purple "ergo clears"?

[nubbinator]

Looks like Cherry mainly did marketing speak without good technical answers, so not surprising that they skipped some.

[luis911]

Looks like Cherry mainly did marketing speak without good technical answers, so not surprising that they skipped some.

They dont wanna give away any trade secrets, gosh...

[jabar]

Looks like Cherry mainly did marketing speak without good technical answers, so not surprising that they skipped some.

They answered all three of my questions and I'm happy with their responses. I'm sure their marketing team had some engineers do their homework. 

[Photoelectric]

We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet

I thought the black G80 keyboards used POM...

Reading the full question,

"When Cherry used to manage doubleshot keycap production, were the use of other plastics (PBT, POM) ever explored?" and the full answer:

"Doubleshot keycaps where only explored with ABS and once with “night glow” ABS.  We have not produced PBT or POM ones yet, but we are working on some new innovative solutions for keycaps."

you can see that they are talking about doubleshot keycaps specifically, which have not been made in POM or PBT by Cherry.
----

Overall great Q&A!!  Had fun reading it--thank you again, James!

My favorite replies are about Cherry confirming that vintage Black materials are the same, but perhaps there was slight difference in physical molds / manufacturing tolerances, claim that MX Whites do not start out lubricated (is that true?), and that Cherry is looking to improve smoothness of its switches (which I think is a serious issue with how variable the variation can be for brand new switches: from smooth to very scratchy).

[1pq]

Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

This was one of the best questions, IMHO, and it didn't get answered. Cherry must not want to admit that the material changed because now they're using cheaper plastics

[Photoelectric]

Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

This was one of the best questions, IMHO, and it didn't get answered. Cherry must not want to admit that the material changed because now they're using cheaper plastics

Until someone tests chemical composition, we don't have proof of the opposite either.  So conspiracy theories aside, the difference might be simply due to different machinery which most certainly underwent some evolution and repairs and replacement with some fine differences.  The question did get answered, just not in detail.

[SpAmRaY]

Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

This was one of the best questions, IMHO, and it didn't get answered. Cherry must not want to admit that the material changed because now they're using cheaper plastics

Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

No, it has been the same proven material every time. The fluctuations are caused by the different tools we‘re using here in the production. But we always optimize our production processes to realize a standardized stem quality. 

^^ seems like an answer to me 

[damorgue]

Can we get a 3d printer design template to print custom keycaps?

Good idea we will think about this in the future.

I don't think this is an issue in this community. We need to modify them anyway to make the tolerances just right different materials and machines.

Are MX Whites still being made and do they have special
or extra lubing from the factory?

The whites have been made on special request from business customers. There’s no special lubing on white stem switches.

We have observed great lumps of lubrication on them. I believe this answer to be false. I am curious what they would say makes them so different if this isn't the case.

Did the Cherry MX Blue Keys change at any point?

No, the design is still based on the first products.

Old blues are very consistent and very different. New blues even when used do not really compare. Some even mentioned NIB vintage blues to feel different in the same way. "based on the first products" doesn't really say that much, but I am certain they have changed a fair bit at some point.