Author Topic: Scorpius M10 switch solder joints  (Read 2734 times)

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Offline rdjack21

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« on: Thu, 02 April 2009, 23:25:24 »
As many of you know the solder joints for the key switches  on the Scorpius M10 are very bad. I had one of the keys on my M10 quit working so this was the first time I have had the displeasure of actually taking a look at them.

Having worked as a SMT and Through hole process engineer for many years (before the dot com bust) I can make an educated guess as to what their problem is. And I can say this much they need to fire their current process engineer.

From some tail tell signs on the board it looks like they are doing a two stage process.

1) Place all parts except the key switches and the mounting plate I would image and run that over the wave solder machine. Most of these solder joints look halfway decent. They do have an issue where the daughter card is mounted to the board as I can see signs that they did a little rework on some of them. I bet due to bridging. The pins are awful close together for wave solder work. But it is more cost effective to just rework them than it is to move to another process for that one part.

2) Mount the key switches and backing plate to the board. With out a scope it is hard for me to determine the exact process here, with a good scope I could tell you for sure which one. Any ways at this point they are doing one of two things:
a) Using a selective soldering machine
b) Hand soldering the joints
My bet is with option b because of the inconsistency of the joints. The number one cause of the solder joint inconsistency is lack of heat control in particularly the lack of preheating the board and switches before doing the hand soldering. To get a really good hand solder you have to heat both the board and the part. If you don't you get the kind of solder joints I'm seeing on the back of this board.

Actually after taking a look at this http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm which states that the switch can be exposed to a 500F wave solder for 5 secs. I wonder why they are not wave soldering the whole board. Oh I forgot I bet they are using a lead free solder which means the wave solder is going to be 600-700 depending on the formulation they are using but still I bet you could wave these boards you would just have knock the exposure time down a little so the switch pins don't over heat.

Oh well I'm just ranting I really hate to see this kind of sloppy work. I tried to take some pictures of the issues and maybe explain what the cause for those issues are but I could not get the right lighting for taking some good shots. I will try to get some good shots of the joints during the weekend if anyone is interested. But I have to warn you I may be Monday before I can actually get them posted as I'm going on a cub scout camp out this weekend.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline Ulysses31

  • Posts: 288
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 06:57:03 »
If you want to see really sloppy soldering, open up one of those cheap Chinese transistor radios.  There's usually excess solder and flux and paraffin wax all over the place.

Offline FKSSR

  • Posts: 529
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 07:35:56 »
Quote from: rdjack21;26732
Oh well I'm just ranting I really hate to see this kind of sloppy work. I tried to take some pictures of the issues and maybe explain what the cause for those issues are but I could not get the right lighting for taking some good shots. I will try to get some good shots of the joints during the weekend if anyone is interested. But I have to warn you I may be Monday before I can actually get them posted as I'm going on a cub scout camp out this weekend.

I'm bad at electrical work and really want to get better, so I'd appreciate seeing anything you can post.

And good luck with the camp.  I hope you get some nice, new badges and finally graduate you to a full boy scout. ;)
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Offline rdjack21

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 08:45:08 »
Quote from: FKSSR;26780
And good luck with the camp.  I hope you get some nice, new badges and finally graduate you to a full boy scout. ;)


This is my son's first year (tiger) so they are giving out badges like candy :) Just for showing up he will get a badge which is fine by me but I'm the one that has to figure out where to put them all. So far he is loving it. I just hope it holds out because the cub/boy scouts are a great organization.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline cmr

  • Posts: 295
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 11:58:52 »
the solder is definitely some kind of stupid lead-free ROHS crap. i couldn't even melt it with my iron at the 15 W setting, had to switch up to 30 W.

it's too bad they don't make a version with proper solder for the rest of the world.

Offline rdjack21

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  • Posts: 896
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 13:54:58 »
Quote from: cmr;26842
the solder is definitely some kind of stupid lead-free ROHS crap. i couldn't even melt it with my iron at the 15 W setting, had to switch up to 30 W.

it's too bad they don't make a version with proper solder for the rest of the world.

The biggest problem with these lead-free solders is that they require considerably higher temperatures to flow correctly (solder flow temp is actually higher than melting temp at melting temp the solder just won't flow think of flowing water verses like a slush or a Icee drink ). The parts just were not designed for these temps so you end up with crap solder joints because you can't get the part hot enough so that it does not become a heat sink to the pin you are trying to solder. Don't get me wrong you can get a solder joint that works but not necessarily a good joint. For a good joint the solder should form a fillet on both sides of the board not just the side you can see. That is why it is called flow the solder flows up the pin fills the via and forms a matching fillet on the other side of the board. With these new lead-free solders it is really hard to get the solder to flow so you end up with a connection on only one side of the board which makes the joint more likely to break under mechanical stress. Every time you press a key (even more so when you bottom them out) you are applying mechanical stress to the solder joint. I bet if we really looked at what keys are failing my bet is that it is the keys we activate the most. In my case it was the left arrow key (playing a game so I was banging on it pretty hard I'm sure) that failed.

EDIT: When I left the field we were moving to pressed in parts for some things because of issues similar to this. The problem with the pressed in parts is that they are extremely hard to fix if the part had to be replaced. It is not something you could fix your self unless you have a multi ton press and very specialized tooling for the specific part.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline cmr

  • Posts: 295
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:15:12 »
mine was the right arrow!

and yeah i noticed that even on the 30 W setting this crap would not flow like i expected it to. and because i'm crap at soldering i burned up the traces and had to use jumpers.

if you think the soldering is ugly from the factory, just wait until you see what i've done to this thing in five years.

Offline rdjack21

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:21:22 »
Quote from: cmr;26910
mine was the right arrow!

and yeah i noticed that even on the 30 W setting this crap would not flow like i expected it to. and because i'm crap at soldering i burned up the traces and had to use jumpers.

if you think the soldering is ugly from the factory, just wait until you see what i've done to this thing in five years.


LOL - I would think the best way to do it would be to put the board in the oven for a while then try to solder it. I would think around 150 or so should heat up the switches enough that you could get a decent solder joint. With out knowing the temp ratings for all the parts I would not go much higher than that. When I get a chance I will be doing that to mine. Oh if you decide to do that put it in the oven with the board facing the heat source not the switches.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline cmr

  • Posts: 295
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:24:25 »
dishwasher, sink, oven... people are always recommending kitchen facilities for keyboard maintenance...

Offline FKSSR

  • Posts: 529
Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:31:40 »
I heard that if you want to loosen up your switches a bit, you can just lay a refrigerator on them....
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Offline rdjack21

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:41:44 »
LOL - Our kitchen is the only place were you can get access to some of the things you need for doing keyboard maintenance.

FKSSR - Hmm did not think of the refrigerator I bet you could use it for a press like you mentioned but hopefully you could get a little more control than just laying it on the board. Need to think about that.. I bet my wife would have a cow if she came into the kitchen and saw me jacking around with the fridge (Use a car jack to control pressure with keyboard under the fridge ) :) Hmm...
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline FKSSR

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 03 April 2009, 15:58:43 »
haha.  I probably should have put a "don't try this at home" warning on it.  I don't want to hear about some noob that tries that and kills him/herself! ;)
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Offline rdjack21

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Scorpius M10 switch solder joints
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 05 April 2009, 12:03:14 »
Quote from: FKSSR;26924
haha.  I probably should have put a "don't try this at home" warning on it.  I don't want to hear about some noob that tries that and kills him/herself! ;)


Well I do know what I'm doing but I still I thought it was kinda of funny. Besides if you really needed a jury riged press for fixing pressed on parts the fridge would not be heavy enough you would need to use something much heaver like maybe your car :) But even then after machining the correct tooling it would be cheaper to go to a local machine shop and see if they could do it or the even cheaper option just buy another board.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]