Need advice on choosing a switch.

[Boozebreath]

I plan on getting a new keyboard by the end of the year.  I currently use a rubber dome keyboard that came with my pc, it is starting wear out a little after 3 years of heavy use.  I am thinking about upgrading to a mechanical one.  After reading about a variety of switches online I went to a store to try mx cherry switches on their ducky test board.

I found it hard to make a real decision just from pressing them for such a short period of time but I liked blues and browns the most.  I didn't like blacks they weren't hard to press but the combination of linear and the stiffness did not feel good, as for reds they seemed okay but a bit too light. 

Blue however is probably not an option due to the noise, for I do not want my family to murder me.  Brown seems to the best switch for me to start with considering I like having a tactile bump. I wish I was able to test clears cause brown might be a little too light but maybe that is because I used to a rubber dome.  I was also considering topre, which sadly I was not able to test either.

I won't really know what switch I will like till I have used it for a while.  I mostly play games on my pc, but I still want something enjoyable to type on for chat and other various things. Maybe the real question is if it really is worth spending more for something other than a rubber dome in my case?  I've been using rubber dome for quite a long time and I am used to the all or nothing feel they have.  Also wondering how much better topre really is compared to rubber dome.

I know switches are personal preference but I figure some suggestions on the matter would be a good idea before I decide to just go spend over $100 on one.  I already have a general idea of what switches to try first.  Looking at brown/clear switches or topre at this point if I decide to leave rubber dome behind.

[rowdy]

Unfortunately no-one can tell you which switch you will like the best.  That is entirely subjective, and each person's preferences are different.

If you can, see if you can borrow a keyboard from someone for a little while, or at least use someone's keyboard for an hour or so to give you a reasonable idea of what the keyboard feels like.

Alternatively if you do decide on a keyboard and buy it, take good care of it and if it turns out that you don't like it, you should be able to sell it for not much less than you paid for it, and count the difference towards your experience.

[Fragil1ty]

Unfortunately no-one can tell you which switch you will like the best.  That is entirely subjective, and each person's preferences are different.

If you can, see if you can borrow a keyboard from someone for a little while, or at least use someone's keyboard for an hour or so to give you a reasonable idea of what the keyboard feels like.

Alternatively if you do decide on a keyboard and buy it, take good care of it and if it turns out that you don't like it, you should be able to sell it for not much less than you paid for it, and count the difference towards your experience.

This is quite true, it's probably best to just go ahead and buy one of those switch testers? I'm not sure of the official name, but here's a link to what I'm talking about:


http://www.cmstore-usa.com/mechanical-key-switch-demo-board/

Just go ahead and buy one of these, attach a keycap and basically find out what you like the best. A lot of us here on GH have gone through trials and tribulations in pursue of the best switch and that's how we have found what switch works the best for us.

[Sent]

Also, unfortunately, your tastes might change when you actually get a board and start using it for a week, two weeks, a month, etc.  What you thought you liked is now what you dislike and vice versa.  Just gotta take a plunge at some point and start somewhere.

[AverageHybrid]

Well if it's like you mentioned that you wanted to type and game at the same time I think you will not regret getting the browns. However like rowdy said no one can tell you which switch is the best for you as the only way to know is to type on a full keyboard yourself. However it is good that you have ruled out the blues and the blacks. Now it leaves you with the Browns, Reds and maybe the Clears. I would recommend browns or clears if you want the tactile bump and want equal gaming and typing performance. However most of this is personal as now I'm typing on a red and I type just as fast as on my blues.

[Oobly]

I would recommend Clears all the way. Browns are decent and work fine for both gaming and typing, but I have found Clears to work even better for both. The larger tactile bump really makes it clear where the switch activates and when gaming you can keep the switch right near the actuation point by holding it just on the upslope of the bump on the way up  (if that makes any sense). The bump acts as both a reference and a backstop.

You didn't mention the size of board you want, though, which is critical in deciding what board to recommend. If you don't use the numpad all that much a TKL board is awesome. It reduces the space needed on the desk, brings the mouse and keyboard hands closer together when gaming and allows the typing area of the board to be more central to the display. 75% and 60% boards allow this even more, but can take some getting used to the layouts.

If you need the numpad I would recommend a Ducky Premier full size board with Browns, but if you want a TKL, the KUL ES-87 with Clears is a winner!

[Boozebreath]

Sorry, I was in a rush earlier so some my wording was off in the original subject name and post so I cleaned it up a little.  I am not asking anyone to tell me what switch I will like best.  Just looking for suggestions and opinions based off where I am stuck at now to help get me unstuck.

[AverageHybrid]

Sorry, I was in a rush earlier so some my wording was off in the original subject name and post so I cleaned it up a little.  I am not asking anyone to tell me what switch I will like best.  Just looking for suggestions and opinions based off where I am stuck at now to help get me unstuck.

Since you mentioned that you wanted advice based on where you stuck instead of "It's all preference" or "Until you try it yourself". I was also thinking whether mechanical switches were worth it and they are! Not only they feel better, most of them will last longer and are built to last. I have tried topre once in a shop and for me they feel like more sturdy rubber domes that are are "stabilized", think of having a rubber dome but they do not wobble around and feel sturdier and when they are pressed you still get the same feel as a rubber dome keyboard except that after the first pressure made to depress it the rest feels more linear, most people do not recommend topre for gaming though. I have been in a similar situation before and was thinking the same as you. It is still up to you which one you prioritize, typing accuracy or gaming. If your piorities are even I would suggest you go for the Browns or the Clears. However one thing I have to say that a wrong keyboard has a bigger impact on your typing than your gaming from what I personally experienced. Clears are generally better than browns if they are available to you. Depends on what games you are playing too, if it's RTS a stronger tactile feeling will be better. However if it's FPS, some might prefer the browns as they require less force to actuate and also have a slightly subtle tactile bump. I have only used blues and reds though so I cannot give you much input about Browns and clears.

[Boozebreath]

I would recommend Clears all the way. Browns are decent and work fine for both gaming and typing, but I have found Clears to work even better for both. The larger tactile bump really makes it clear where the switch activates and when gaming you can keep the switch right near the actuation point by holding it just on the upslope of the bump on the way up  (if that makes any sense). The bump acts as both a reference and a backstop.

You didn't mention the size of board you want, though, which is critical in deciding what board to recommend. If you don't use the numpad all that much a TKL board is awesome. It reduces the space needed on the desk, brings the mouse and keyboard hands closer together when gaming and allows the typing area of the board to be more central to the display. 75% and 60% boards allow this even more, but can take some getting used to the layouts.

If you need the numpad I would recommend a Ducky Premier full size board with Browns, but if you want a TKL, the KUL ES-87 with Clears is a winner!

Thanks but choosing a specific board is not really the problem though, at least not yet.  I will probably stick to a full size board because not having a numpad would feel weird.  It would save quite a bit of money if I didn't get a full size board though.  As for brands I was thinking of getting Ducky, Cooler Master, or some other highly recommended one.

At this point I am just trying to figure out if getting something better than rubber dome is worth it since I would probably just end up bottoming out on a mechanical one anyways.  Also whether if actually matters if I do bottom out.

Since you mentioned that you wanted advice based on where you stuck instead of "It's all preference" or "Until you try it yourself". I was also thinking whether mechanical switches were worth it and they are! Not only they feel better, most of them will last longer and are built to last. I have tried topre once in a shop and for me they feel like more sturdy rubber domes that are are "stabilized", think of having a rubber dome but they do not wobble around and feel sturdier and when they are pressed you still get the same feel as a rubber dome keyboard except that after the first pressure made to depress it the rest feels more linear, most people do not recommend topre for gaming though. I have been in a similar situation before and was thinking the same as you. It is still up to you which one you prioritize, typing accuracy or gaming. If your piorities are even I would suggest you go for the Browns or the Clears. However one thing I have to say that a wrong keyboard has a bigger impact on your typing than your gaming from what I personally experienced. Clears are generally better than browns if they are available to you. Depends on what games you are playing too, if it's RTS a stronger tactile feeling will be better. However if it's FPS, some might prefer the browns as they require less force to actuate and also have a slightly subtle tactile bump. I have only used blues and reds though so I cannot give you much input about Browns and clears.

Thanks that helps quite a bit.  I play all kinds of games: MMORPGs, RTS, and FPS.  So perhaps something more balanced would be the way to go, I am leaning toward trying brown switches first.  Really wish a store nearby had topre keyboard to test out, considering I game fine on my rubber dome I was wondering if it would be the same, better, or worse for it due to the springs.

[notsonerd]

Browns are great. Browns are awesome. Browns are the only switch I have on a board, though.

Like Oobly said, you need to consider the other things you'll want from a keyboard.  Also put some more consideration into how you'll be using it.

You mentioned that you'll mostly be using it for gaming. How do you game using your current board? Do you tend to hit each key with more force than necessary to actuate it or do you only give it enough force to push it down?

If you figure that you're generally a heavy typist, you might want to rule out the light switches: blues, browns, and reds. If you are a light typist, then congratulations--you're back where you started.

You mentioned the reds felt a little light for you. Was that only from a linear switch standpoint? Unfortunately, there's no stock middle-ground when it comes to linears.  You'd have to customize them yourself to get something in-between.

If you're already decided on tactility, then it's down to the browns and the clears. Nobody recommends the greys, and I really don't know why. If the reds were too light for you, does the tactility in the browns make enough of a difference in feel to you that they don't feel "too light"? Browns are only slightly heavier at the actuation. Before and beyond that, they're basically reds.

Taking the latest above statement into account, if even the browns feel "too light," then the clears may be worth trying out.

Bottoming-out is another thing to consider. The way I currently use my browns is with just the right amount of force to actuate without bottoming-out. It took a little practice, but that was just a few hours of consistent on-and-off typing. As I get used to the style, it gets more comfortable and I do notice a slight boost in my speed. If you think that you want a little more resistance, then you can't go wrong with the clears. Plenty of mods for them to try if stock feels a little off.

On the off-chance that the clears are wrong for you, though, depending on the board you purchase, they're easy to sell without much loss.

As for key switch samplers, I don't think there's a need for you to get one if you've already tried boards with mechanical switches. Samplers feel distinctly different from actual boards. All they'll do is narrow down your choices, which you already have.

tl;dr: Browns if you want a light switch. Clears if you want something a little heavier.

Edit:

@Topre: Topre boards tend to be more expensive than Cherry MX. If this is your first board, I recommend trying one with Cherry MX first. Since you're not even sure you want or need a mechanical keyboard, paying upwards to $200 for your first one doesn't seem wise.

And full-size boards aren't that much more expensive than their more compact counter-parts. Consider how much you really use the number pad to game. The ergonomic difference of a more compact board could actually improve your gameplay more than a board with a dedicated number pad would.

[Boozebreath]

The keyboard I use now and the one before it are impossible to not bottom out on.  So I think its safe to say I have been bottoming out for many years, 5 at least if not more.  I am now used to flatter keys that don't stick out as much.

[notsonerd]

The keyboard I use now and the one before it are impossible to not bottom out on.  So I think its safe to say I have been bottoming out for many years, 5 at least if not more.  I am now used to flatter keys that don't stick out as much.

I used chiclet-style keys on a laptop for over two years. It'll feel awkward typing on the higher profiles for a while, but that doesn't take too long to get used to. Going back to typing on my laptop, I now dislike it.

As for bottoming-out, you don't really have a choice when you're using rubber domes. It's how you bottom-out that matters. Whether you apply much more force than necessary to do so or just enough.

[Hypersphere]

During the past year, I have tried many keyboards with various form factors, layouts, and switches. This has included Alps (Monterey blue, orange, and white), Cherry mx (vintage black, blue, brown, clear, and green), IBM buckling spring (capacitive and membrane), Matias tactile/clicky, NMB Hi-Tek space invader black and white, and various other linear switches.

Out of scores of keyboards, only a few have emerged as favorites. These include the IBM Model M SSK, IBM Model F XT, HHKB Pro 2 (Topre 45g), and Realforce 87ub 55g Topre.

I have yet to find a Cherry mx switch that I like.  I haven't yet tried contemporary blacks or reds; I might test these before ruling out Cherry mx altogether. I have a Cherry mx switch tester, but this does not give me the sound and feel of a given switch on a real keyboard.

Currently, my daily driver at work is the HHKB Pro 2. At home it is the RF 87ub 55g, which is my quietest board. When I feel like making a racket, I type on my IBM XT keyboard.

To me, IBM buckling springs (especially the capacitive ones found in the IBM XT keyboard) and Topre (especially the 55g ones) rank far above any Cherry switch I have tried with respect to sound and tactile feedback. Various Alps, Matias, and space invader switches are in the middle of my preference scale, and Cherry switches rank lowest.


 

[AverageHybrid]

Actually I myself am still in a dilemma of choosing which keyboard to have for my second keyboard. I currently have a Filco Majestouch 2 Full sized keyboard with custom blank PBT keycaps and a Ducky Shine 3 Tenkeyless with Red switches. I have decided to keep my filco blues as they feel great and are just very comfortable for typing. And my reds are actually okay to type on right now but then the cherry mx stabilizers are getting on my nerves and are just feel like blacks with very thick o-rings on them.

 Now I have a few choices: keep both my keyboards and be happy with it, sell my Ducky Shine 3 and get a filco Majestouch 2 TKL Browns or sell my Ducky Shine 3 and get a Majestouch 2 TKL with reds. I have decided that I will never ever use the Cherry Stabilizers as they just feel terrible for me and the Costar ones are the way to go.

I am also planning to somehow sell my Filco Majestouch 2 Blues full sized for a TKL keyboards as it is one of those things for me which are like "once you go TKL, you can never go back" my OCD just gets on me when I see that extra chunk of number pad which I don't use, don't know why I got the full-sized in the first place either.

Any input guys?

[CPTBadAss]

OP, if you're in the States, I can lend you a MX switch tester with pretty much every Cherry MX switch (modded and stock) that you could think of. PM me if you're interested.

[Defect]

In my opinion the best all-purpose MX stem is the clear stem.  More tactile than browns and not clicky.  I like clears with a swapping (lighter) spring.

Your switch taste will change.  I went from blues to clears to modded clears...now I only like linear with heavy springs.

[AverageHybrid]

In my opinion the best all-purpose MX stem is the clear stem.  More tactile than browns and not clicky.  I like clears with a swapping (lighter) spring.

Your switch taste will change.  I went from blues to clears to modded clears...now I only like linear with heavy springs.

This ^ ergo clears are generally the best regarded around the community.

[Oobly]

Clip the tabs off your stabilisers and you'll have BETTER stabilisers than Costar. Costars are rattly, can impact / bind on thick or warped keycaps and are fiddly with their little inserts.

Greys are not recommended because they have exactly the same stem shape as Clears, but have really heavy springs (heavier than Blacks) and are generally used only for spacebars on boards with Clears.

If you want a full size just because TKL would "feel weird" and not due to needing a numpad I say "get a TKL". Ergonomically it makes sense for the reasons I mentioned before.

ErgoClears are awesome, my favourite switch type (62g version), but you need to desolder the switches to swap the springs. Stock Clears are very nice, they start out just a hair harder to press than Browns, but with much better tactility and after the bump the force increases faster, so they're harder to bottom out. If you bottom out Clears all the time it gets fatiguing, though. Most ErgoClears have slightly heavier springs than Browns to help the stem over the bump on the way up, but don't have the increase in spring force near bottom out, so they're lighter than stock Clears and not fatiguing. The tactility is also increased since the relative leaf pressure vs spring pressure is greater. They've got a nice "pop" to them.

In the end, switches are a personal preference. We can only describe their characteristics and it's up to you to decide which you think will suit you best. Sometimes you'll find a switch that just feels great even though it's not what you thought you'd like from descriptions, though, so if you get a chance, try as many as you can.

I prefer 62g ErgoClears to buckling springs, all the stock MX types and most Alps and Alps clones. I have yet to try Ghost Blacks and Matias quiet switches.

[Boozebreath]

Thanks everyone for the replies, getting closer to deciding on what I am going to do.  If I go for a topre I was thinking of trying the Topre Heaven ZA0100, seems to be the only one within budget I can find in the US.  Does anyone know more about the quality of this keyboard?  Otherwise it might be best to rule out topre as my first choice considering the leap in price.

I am really interested in the ergo clears mentioned, if it is possible to get a keyboard that I could change the springs without desoldering.  I would try clears first in that case for the bigger bump, especially if I could just swap out the springs to something lighter if I find them too stiff.  Also if and where is it possible to buy just the springs.

[Oobly]

http://kbdmod.com/product/detail.html?product_no=23&cate_no=12&display_group=1

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/accessories/products/springs

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55888.0

You'd need a board without backlighting (or with SIP sockets installed for the LED's) and with a custom / modified plate to be able to open up the switches without desoldering.

You could buy a Poker II with Clears and then install a custom plate, but you'd have to desolder all the switches to install the plate.

[AverageHybrid]

For me personally I wouldn't suggest getting topre as your first "mechanical keyboard" though. I just got my Filco reds with Costar stabilizers and to me they just feel like browns but cleaned out Browns and for me I type equally as fast on browns as on the reds and reds feel better. This is of course very subjective. Either way you won't go wrong switching from a membrane keyboard to either of your choices and either one of those is an upgrade to a membrane keyboard (obviously)

[runcom]

Buckling spring!!! (out of work now no time to explain lol)

[Defect]

I posted here already but here is my opinion for best (that I have tried) switches in each category:

CLICKY: Buckling Spring,  SKCM ALPS
TACTILE: MX Clear, Matias Quiet
LINEAR: ALPS, Lubed MX (heavier spring feels smoother IMO)
RUBBER DOME: Topre 45g, Topre 55g.  Yes I know Topre is not mechanically the same as RD but in terms of feel...it's RD.

Clicky: typing, low APM games
Tactile: Multi purpose
Linear: God tier for FPS and any game that requires fluid key control
RD: If you like collapsing domes.  Topre actuates at half - way since it is capacitive RD.

[Adriel]

I think you just gotta take a plunge and buy one for me personally one mechanical keyboard isn't enough and I need more than one to switch around as my taste changes every now and then. I got the blues and then enjoyed doing everything on them and then soon got bored of the clicky sound and then now I have the reds and I love them to both type and game! I guess you'll need to take a plunge and get a red/brown then.

And btw off topic but Defect how do you add those pictures into your signature? I know there is a thread of keyboard pixel art but how did you get it into your sig?

[Adriel]

I think you just gotta take a plunge and buy one for me personally one mechanical keyboard isn't enough and I need more than one to switch around as my taste changes every now and then. I got the blues and then enjoyed doing everything on them and then soon got bored of the clicky sound and then now I have the reds and I love them to both type and game! I guess you'll need to take a plunge and get a red/brown then.

And btw off topic but Defect how do you add those pictures into your signature? I know there is a thread of keyboard pixel art but how did you get it into your sig?

[Boozebreath]

Even though it's not being recommended I am leaning toward taking a plunge on a topre first.  I would like to know if the Topre Heaven ZA0100 is any good cause it is the only topre board within my budget.  If it isn't considered good for a topre then I will just go with brown/clear till I can afford to try a good topre board.

[nubbinator]

If you want something similar to Topre on the cheap, find an old Apple keyboard with Orange Alps.  You'll get a keyboard with fantastic PBT caps, a nice layout, some great switches, and a well built board for under $100.  Personally, the only Topre board I've really enjoyed is the HHKB I'm typing on right now.

[Puddsy]

If you want something similar to Topre on the cheap, find an old Apple keyboard with Orange Alps.  You'll get a keyboard with fantastic PBT caps, a nice layout, some great switches, and a well built board for under $100.  Personally, the only Topre board I've really enjoyed is the HHKB I'm typing on right now.

++++++

[paicrai]

hhkb

[Tony]

There is no best switch or best keyboard, you have to spend at least 1000 USD to know what is best for you.

Some of us spend 5000 USD or more to find that there is no suitable switch for them at all. Then they become keyboard collectors.