Help me identify this old Panasonic

[Blaise170]

Bought a keyboard lot from goodwill and got a nice Samsung with Blue alps along with two other membrane/hammer boards.

The fourth keyboard, however, has no identification on it. The switches appear to be some kind of buckling spring. It looks like a spacesaver of some kind as well. It also has a very odd connector that I've never personally seen. Pictures below:

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[CPTBadAss]

Hm, I've been very wrong about things all day....or usually. But I think that's what they called a buckling sleeve rubber dome.

[SpAmRaY]

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[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Hm, I've been very wrong about things all day....or usually. But I think that's what they called a buckling sleeve rubber dome.

There is a spring depicted in the keycap of the first image, and there is no discernible "buckling sleeve" that I can see in image 2.

Having a bad day, CPT?

EDIT: nvm, you might be right... can't say for sure with those pics though...

[CPTBadAss]

Having a bad day, CPT?

I've been wrong more than usual today. Lack of reading comprehension and busy at work .

Anyways, hopefully someone else has a better idea than myself .

[Blaise170]

Interesting. Took a better picture of the switch, hopefully it's clearer in this photo.

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[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Interesting. Took a better picture of the switch, hopefully it's clearer in this photo.

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Show Image

Whoa, nice pic...

Yeah, def not a buckling sleeve. Looks to be some sort of spring-over-metal-contact type of thing... never seen it before.

I agree with the CPT... maybe someone else will know more about it.

[dorkvader]

you can see the membrane there. It could be buckling rubber sleeves, but I think it's a normal rubber dome sheet or a spring over membrane. Do you have a shot of the underside of a keycap?

edit: ninja'd by CLiB!

Interesting. Took a better picture of the switch, hopefully it's clearer in this photo.

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Show Image

Whoa, nice pic...

Yeah, def not a buckling sleeve. Looks to be some sort of spring-over-metal-contact type of thing... never seen it before.

I agree with the CPT... maybe someone else will know more about it.

That's why I want to see the underside of a keycap. I suspect it's a spring over membrane, but I can't say for sure without seeing the spring.

[SpAmRaY]

you can see the membrane there. It could be buckling rubber sleeves, but I think it's a normal rubber dome sheet or a spring over membrane. Do you have a shot of the underside of a keycap?

edit: ninja'd by CLiB!

Interesting. Took a better picture of the switch, hopefully it's clearer in this photo.

More

Show Image

Whoa, nice pic...

Yeah, def not a buckling sleeve. Looks to be some sort of spring-over-metal-contact type of thing... never seen it before.

I agree with the CPT... maybe someone else will know more about it.

That's why I want to see the underside of a keycap. I suspect it's a spring over membrane, but I can't say for sure without seeing the spring.

Spring under key cap in first post.

[Blaise170]

More pictures of the keycap:

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[Computer-Lab in Basement]

The more I look at it the more I agree with dorkvader...

OP, what does it feel like to type on? My guess is that it's linear?

[Blaise170]

Yes, it feels like a stiffer version of the Unicomp Model M I tried (don't remember if the Model M was tactile or not, so sorry if that's a bad comparison). There's no bump at all though.

[E TwentyNine]

I'm more interested in what it's from than the switch.  What keyboard would have "Rotate Disc" on it?

Panasonic seemed to have some interesting keyboard, things having to do with MIDI, etc but I cannot track this one down.

[Blaise170]

I'm more interested in what it's from than the switch.  What keyboard would have "Rotate Disc" on it?

Panasonic seemed to have some interesting keyboard, things having to do with MIDI, etc but I cannot track this one down.

Sorry for bad picture quality, that's actually "Rotate Disp".

[nubbinator]

you can see the membrane there. It could be buckling rubber sleeves, but I think it's a normal rubber dome sheet or a spring over membrane. Do you have a shot of the underside of a keycap?

edit: ninja'd by CLiB!

Interesting. Took a better picture of the switch, hopefully it's clearer in this photo.

More

Show Image

Whoa, nice pic...

Yeah, def not a buckling sleeve. Looks to be some sort of spring-over-metal-contact type of thing... never seen it before.

I agree with the CPT... maybe someone else will know more about it.

That's why I want to see the underside of a keycap. I suspect it's a spring over membrane, but I can't say for sure without seeing the spring.

That's my thought. It looks a lot like some of those old typewriters that had spring over membrane.

[Blaise170]

Went ahead and took it apart. A quick google of the part numbers returned ZERO results. What? Anyways, here are some pictures.

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[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ahhhh!

THAT explains the SMK version of the Apple Keyboard II.

I've never been able to figure out how it could have only one spring (the coil spring in the keycap).

The membranes are closed by the leaf spring under pressure from the helical spring.

The SMK design has sliders and looks different, but SMK could potentially be the OEM. The "M" on the serial might be for Mat****a (i.e. Panasonic), and since the controller chip is also Panasonic branded, maybe they made it in house.

[jacobolus]

THAT explains the SMK version of the Apple Keyboard II. I've never been able to figure out how it could have only one spring (the coil spring in the keycap).

The membranes are closed by the leaf spring under pressure from the helical spring. The SMK design has sliders and looks different, but SMK could potentially be the OEM.

I think there are several other spring over membrane designs from other companies, no? This one doesn’t look especially similar to the SMK one..?

[Blaise170]

Ahhhh!

THAT explains the SMK version of the Apple Keyboard II.

I've never been able to figure out how it could have only one spring (the coil spring in the keycap).

The membranes are closed by the leaf spring under pressure from the helical spring.

The SMK design has sliders and looks different, but SMK could potentially be the OEM. The "M" on the serial might be for Mat****a (i.e. Panasonic), and since the controller chip is also Panasonic branded, maybe they made it in house.

Is this keyboard particularly interesting, or is it just pretty much worthless?

[E TwentyNine]

Is this keyboard particularly interesting, or is it just pretty much worthless?

Why not both?

[dorkvader]

Ahhhh!

THAT explains the SMK version of the Apple Keyboard II.

I've never been able to figure out how it could have only one spring (the coil spring in the keycap).

The membranes are closed by the leaf spring under pressure from the helical spring.

The SMK design has sliders and looks different, but SMK could potentially be the OEM. The "M" on the serial might be for Mat****a (i.e. Panasonic), and since the controller chip is also Panasonic branded, maybe they made it in house.

In English it's usually spelled "Matsu****a". Dad used to work at their kenmore vacuum cleaner plant in Kentucky. Like Kenmore, Panasonic was a brand owned by the Matsu****a company. They have since changed their name to that brand though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Dorkvader: I've seen both spellings and was never actually sure whether or not they were the same company.

jacobolus:
This is what I was thinking:

http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/all-products-macintosh/apple-keyboard-ii-parts/

Now, the Apple Keyboard II has sliders, but look at Alps: they couldn't help themselves — they churned out every possible variation of everything, including two different slider designs as well as domes without sliders. Even the Alps integrated dome (with umpteen variations) was redesigned as an even cheaper switch, the semi-integrated dome (switch family SKEY it appears — current SKEY switches are all much lower travel, but otherwise look the same).

Now, I grant you the Keyboard II is not the only keyboard I've seen with this design, i.e. a single spring inside the keycap. I've seen at least one other before this Panasonic one. This is however the first time I've had access to a clear enough photograph to see how the design works. I couldn't work out what would stop the spring closing the membrane contacts immediately. There are multiple approaches to this; Alps and Oriental Tech for example used two coil springs, one for return, and one to press on the membrane. This design instead uses a leaf spring to press on the membrane, rather like Cherry MY in fact.

Blaise170: Personally I think it's worth taking clean, uncluttered, well-lit shots of it and documenting it on the wiki. It will be the first "official" documentation of this kind of switch, and while the technology is cheap and nasty, it's nice to have a formal record of all the different approaches that people took over the decades. To my mind, yes the keyboard is interesting.

Also, with my Oriental Tech at least, it's not linear; rather, it's progressive rate, as the second spring comes into contact with the membrane and gives you a rise in force from that point on. I thought it was linear until I got my MX Red keyboard and realised just how different it feels compared to actual linear. Both are low force switches, but the Oriental Tech is quite different. I assume that the same will be the case for a lot of dual-spring/spring+pad switches such as "linear" foam and foil.

Now we just need to know why Peerless switches click!

[dorkvader]

Ahhhh!

THAT explains the SMK version of the Apple Keyboard II.

I've never been able to figure out how it could have only one spring (the coil spring in the keycap).

The membranes are closed by the leaf spring under pressure from the helical spring.

The SMK design has sliders and looks different, but SMK could potentially be the OEM.

Haata has some nice pictures of his amstrad here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/113845661925823397356/albums/5680633098688052449
It has a similar spring over membrane mechanism. Either the membranes are not closed by the spring (but by the keycap) or at bottom out the spring folds over a little

[Findecanor]

Yep. The Amstrad CPC has the same kind of switch. Similar switches are very common in electronic typewriters also. For instance, most Triumph-Adler typewriters that don't have some kind of switch from Cherry (most often not MX) have a similar switch.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ah, so it's not even a leaf spring, it's just bendy plastic … Ouch.

Edit: HaaTa's appears to be the same OEM, actually, as the differences between the two designs are marginal.

[jacobolus]

Ah, so it's not even a leaf spring, it's just bendy plastic … Ouch.

The Model M is also basically just bendy plastic, to be fair.

[dorkvader]

Ah, so it's not even a leaf spring, it's just bendy plastic … Ouch.

Edit: HaaTa's appears to be the same OEM, actually, as the differences between the two designs are marginal.

That's why I posted it. I remember seeing it somewhere and I was digging through his albums for another keyboard so when I saw it, I posted.

Ah, so it's not even a leaf spring, it's just bendy plastic … Ouch.

The Model M is also basically just bendy plastic, to be fair.

EH? I don't think any plastic piece on the model M bends in normal operation.
edit: I see, yes the plastic membrane does bend.

[E TwentyNine]

EH? I don't think any plastic piece on the model M bends in normal operation.

Right, the only thing that bends is the spring.

Maybe it would be easier to remember if that was somehow incorporated into the name of the switch....

[jacobolus]

Ah, so it's not even a leaf spring, it's just bendy plastic … Ouch.

The Model M is also basically just bendy plastic, to be fair.

EH? I don't think any plastic piece on the model M bends in normal operation.

I thought he was talking about the membrane sheet (which is the part that corresponds to a leaf spring in switches with leaf springs for the contact). Nevermind though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's still funny though that the Model M is membrane, and Realforce keyboards are rubber dome : )

[Blaise170]

Hey guys, this is an old topic now but I was doing some research today and have come across something interesting. The Panasonic FS-A1GT from 1986 has a very similar keyboard (function keys, enter key, etc.) so I believe this keyboard may be as old as the 1980s.



The FS is a MIDI station so I think that the suggestion of it being a MIDI may be accurate. I'm going to keep digging through Google to see what I can find.