Author Topic: Just switced to Dvorak.  (Read 22534 times)

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Offline Hak Foo

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Just switced to Dvorak.
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 00:28:51 »
What I learned to type with was the old 1980s books of type-it-in BASIC programs.  I type ~50wpm on two fingers, since I never got learned proper.  I wonder if there's a layout optimal for two-fingered, since the movement pattern is different (F->A is a significant motion, whereas it's no motion in standard typing).

Maybe a layout with common keys in rings around "E" and "S" or similarly main ones.
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #51 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 02:37:02 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;113260
Maybe a layout with common keys in rings around "E" and "S" or similarly main ones.

colemak?

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #52 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 05:26:46 »
Quote from: spremino;113154
Keyboard layout is a user level preference both on Windows and Linux. You can just configure the Colemak layout for you and the Qwerty for her, can't you? Or do both of you share the same user? Anyway you could easily switch layout on the fly by means of a key shortcut.

Unfortunately, login's layout is a system wide preference, and it would be advisable leaving it Qwerty.


Login's would both confuse and piss off Her Ladyship.  When I get her a nice laptop (The current one is, well.... 1.4 Celery, 14" and badly made.. but free works for me), I can have my desktop back.

I am like Hak-Foo though, and though I use more than 2 fingers, I do not type properly, (Though I am learning... Mavis Beacon and Type Faster).

Roll on new laptop time (Frankenstien coming up... I have 2 trashed dells and a Packard Smell... wonder if I can get one working one out of that?). Then it's COLEMAK, BLack IBM's (I'm trying something different to get the case black, will let you all know if it works) and Blank keys.
Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #53 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 05:32:13 »
I think he is just saying IF you have a login that you share with your wife be sure to keep it qwerty

im so used to typing my password it wasnt an issue until i got GOOD at colemak because i typed it by position, didnt even think of it as a word anymore.

or use something like a number that wont change

Offline spremino

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« Reply #54 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 12:41:23 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;113290
I think he is just saying IF you have a login that you share with your wife be sure to keep it qwerty


Exactly.

You could even leave a blank password (under Windows - at least XP - blank password are safer than weak ones since they can be used for logging in only). Come on, Her Ladyship can handle just clicking on Her avatar to log in, can't she? My barely computer literate grannies can!

Don't make up excuses for your laziness ;-)
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline justin

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« Reply #55 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 13:02:39 »
That's actually a good idea to use a numeric password, you could also use special symbols that are on those keys as well.

If you use a Mac, there's an option to show the input menu on the login screen, which solves these problems by allowing you to select keyboard layout directly from the login screen. I'm pretty sure this is a feature in the new Windows 7 as well.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #56 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 13:14:17 »
I've set my XP machine to use Colemak by default, but every now and again it switches to another one of the installed layouts. This is despite having no hot keys set up to swap between them. It doesn't happen often, but it throws me for a while when it does happen.

Offline spremino

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« Reply #57 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 13:52:29 »
Quote from: Rajagra;113431
I've set my XP machine to use Colemak by default, but every now and again it switches to another one of the installed layouts. This is despite having no hot keys set up to swap between them. It doesn't happen often, but it throws me for a while when it does happen.


Delete other active layouts from the layout selection dialog. Your choosen layout must be the only one in the list.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline TheSoulhunter

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« Reply #58 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 14:04:12 »
Quote from: IBI;100583
If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need a keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.
Thank you for this link! :)

I put blank caps om my Filco, but it drives my girlfriend nuts...
With this programm it will be much easier, already made this for her:



Btw, feel free to use or share it...
And if you'd like to get a blank and/or hi-resolution version or whatever, drop me a PM!
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 August 2010, 07:50:15 by TheSoulhunter »

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #59 on: Mon, 31 August 2009, 21:16:57 »
you accidentally printed qwerty you meant to print colemak and get her on the train too

Offline spremino

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« Reply #60 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 15:53:23 »
Just found out this little USB device which converts a standard keyboard to Dvorak:

http://www.keyghost.com/qido/

No fiddling with your operating system settings is needed anymore ;-)

If they'll make a customizable one - since I use a customized Dvorak for Italian - I surely will buy a couple of them.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #61 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 16:24:09 »
I bet there is plenty of spare space in those to hold a few more layouts. If they added Colemak and QFMLWY (from Carpalx) I bet most people here would buy one.

Better still - user programmable.

Maybe even better - configurable by typing in a pangram.

Offline spremino

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« Reply #62 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 16:30:57 »
Quote from: Rajagra;113776
I bet there is plenty of spare space in those to hold a few more layouts. If they added Colemak and QFMLWY (from Carpalx) I bet most people here would buy one.


Would you please let them know you are interested? I've done that. The more people write to them, the more likely they will offer such a customization feature.

You can find the "Contact us" button at the top of the page:

http://www.keyghost.com/qido/

Thanks :-)
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #63 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 19:44:30 »
writing to them now... found and mentioned this a little bit ago but was also disappointed to see no user programmability

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #64 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 20:11:07 »
Quote from: spremino;113411
Exactly.

You could even leave a blank password (under Windows - at least XP - blank password are safer than weak ones since they can be used for logging in only). Come on, Her Ladyship can handle just clicking on Her avatar to log in, can't she? My barely computer literate grannies can!

Don't make up excuses for your laziness ;-)


Nothing lazy about it. When she gets her new laptop, I get black, blank COLEMAK:clap2:.

The current laptop is just too slow for her Flash games, and the Asus 700 netbook is a ***** to type anything on (Even she says this). I just need to make enough to get her something half decent. In a recession, in this area, that's easier said than done.
Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s
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Offline cmr

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« Reply #65 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 20:31:15 »
Quote from: justin;113428
That's actually a good idea to use a numeric password, you could also use special symbols that are on those keys as well.

no!!! that's not a good idea!!!

assuming a password 8 characters in length,

numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords
numbers and symbols from that row = 2.6x10^10 passwords
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 3.7x10^18

if you can test 5000 passwords/sec (typical john-mpi result on modern dual-core machine),

numbers only = 6 hours
numbers and symbols from that row = 60 days
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 4500 years

removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #66 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 21:26:51 »
Quote from: cmr;113826
no!!! that's not a good idea!!!

assuming a password 8 characters in length,

numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords
numbers and symbols from that row = 2.6x10^10 passwords
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 3.7x10^18

if you can test 5000 passwords/sec (typical john-mpi result on modern dual-core machine),

numbers only = 6 hours
numbers and symbols from that row = 60 days
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 4500 years

removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!

while your advice is sound we were talking about the windows login screen, before they are able to have their 'customized' settings loaded.

and the windows login password is incredibly unimportant.

Offline TheSoulhunter

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« Reply #67 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 21:29:53 »
Quote from: cmr;113826
no!!! that's not a good idea!!!

assuming a password 8 characters in length,

numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords

...

numbers only = 6 hours

...

removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!


Mathematically, but... In reality this is only true if the attacker would already know the password is solely made of numbers, which he usually doesn't. For brute-force cracking they usually use a "dictionary" which contains some thousands of the most common passwords (test, qwerty, 1234, password, blah...), names (Sarah, Steve, John...), nicks (FlakMonkey, SexyGirl...), birth dates (1983, 05.06.1992...), names and nicks + birth dates (Steve1983, SexyGirl92...) or "l33t" alterations (St3v3, S3XyG1rL92...), at least to my knowledge. >.>

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #68 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 21:50:47 »
I just use a Linux boot floppy that lets me set the Windows administrator password to anything I like, there's no need to crack the existing password. Oops, was that supposed to be a secret?
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 September 2009, 21:53:11 by Rajagra »

Offline TheSoulhunter

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« Reply #69 on: Tue, 01 September 2009, 22:37:08 »
Quote from: Rajagra;113834
I just use a Linux boot floppy that lets me set the Windows administrator password to anything I like, there's no need to crack the existing password. Oops, was that supposed to be a secret?
Of course that's the more elegant way in this scenario (actually brute forcing is nearly always the least elegant solution) but my reply wasn't specifically aimed on the Win login, but on password cracking in general. Yes, in a lot cases there are backdoors (-> see Windows) n other attack points (ie. reverse engineering -> see DVD+CSS), so even the best password and/or encryption wont save you... >:)
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 September 2009, 22:39:30 by TheSoulhunter »

Offline cmr

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« Reply #70 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:50:31 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;113829
while your advice is sound we were talking about the windows login screen, before they are able to have their 'customized' settings loaded.

and the windows login password is incredibly unimportant.


the windows login password protects the machine against unauthorized access over the network. on windows 9x it was unimportant.

please feel free to swing by the office, and i can introduce you to the windows guys. they will surely be interested to hear your opinion that the windows password is unimportant, considering weak XP login passwords were the attack vector for a large installation of malware that recently decimated the windows desktops here.

if you are not worried about physical attack, you should configure windows to permit local logins without prompting for a password. and still set a strong password on the account.

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #71 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 20:41:51 »
i thought we were talking about a computer shared by the husband and wife at home but i guess your larger scale application is true as well

Offline cmr

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« Reply #72 on: Wed, 02 September 2009, 21:43:36 »
if it's not connected to the internet, sure, knock yourself out.

Offline wolf

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« Reply #73 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 03:19:00 »
I may be fated to be the Master of The Thread Dredge on this forum, but this topic is too near and dear to my heart to pass up.

I've worked with computer keyboards since 1985 - all of which were based on the QWERTY layout - and in all that time - whether it be as a coder, data entry operator, technician, technical writer, recreational writer, IRC/Usenet/listserv/forum **** or amateur researcher - never, ever, learned to touch type.

I hunted and pecked, using all of my fingers - whichever happened to be closest to the keys I required.

I tried in the early years, armed with a copy of TypeQuick, to learn to touch-type but gave it up as a bad joke.

So for many years and many millions of characters, I plodded my way 'round the QWERTY board.  Rather odd, considering the amount of time I spent on a computer and my love of writing.

Last year, at the ripe old age of 46, I decided I would learn to touch type.

However, I was well aware of the fact that QWERTY was designed to deliberately slow typists down to prevent extremely early typewriters from jamming and that other, more efficient, layouts such as Dvorak existed and that it was a trivial matter to change your computer to respond in those layouts.

I therefore decided that if I was going to learn to touch type, I would do so on a layout that did not overly abuse my hands and elected to use the Dvorak layout.

I at first was going to use it at home and the QWERTY layout at work - that lasted less than a week before I changed the machine at work to Dvorak.

My home machine I went all out - changed over the key caps on my keyboard as well as set the system input to US Dvorak.  My work machine, that may get borrowed by a fellow technician, I left the key caps as they were.

This, I found, was a brilliant help - at home I would "cheat" and look at the keys, at work I had no choice but look at the screen or I'd get horribly confused.

As I said, I type a lot - both at work and at home - so I got a lot of practice.  It did not take long before I was proficient at the Dvorak layout and getting faster.

I was aided by a great site that has a Dvorak keyboard tutor - which teaches you with real words rather than the ASFDFA nonsense that QWERTY trainers give for the home keys.  I also just sat and typed "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" over and over until I'd memorised where the keys were.

And I typed everything I had to in Dvorak - total immersion at home and at work.

I have not become super fast - though I am faster than I was when I had to keep looking between keyboard and screen - but my typing is less effort than before and it flows.  I keep my eyes on the screen and can see what I've typed and correct more quickly than I could before (I still try to type faster than my normal speed and hit wrong keys, but I'm getting more accurate).

I'm a strong advocate of doing whatever you can to minimise strain and fatigue at work and at play and so therefore I'm a hearty proponent of the Dvorak layout or anything else more efficient than QWERTY.

The bit I really liked is that my change to Dvorak cost me precisely nothing but time - no fancy new keyboard required, just change a setting in the OS and away you go.

OK, I did later get a "specialised" keyboard - and bought a second out of my own pocket to use at work - but that was because I wanted a compact keyboard so my mouse (trackball at home) would be closer to my hands when typing, so it had nothing to do with the shift to Dvorak.

Recently, I used keytweak to remap the number keys - which US Dvorak has in numeric order - into Dvorak's original layout of 7531902468, as it puts punctuation I use frequently - !()@ - in the middle of the board where they are easily accessed by my strongest fingers - well, it does on a standard computer keyboard, Dvorak typewriters had significantly different punctuation.

I'm getting used to it, now.

I'm also teaching my sons the Dvorak layout right from the outset.  It's a trivial matter to set most machines to Dvorak (and good manners to set it back after you're done) so I don't see them being disadvantaged by it.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline Viett

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« Reply #74 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 08:23:04 »
It's interesting that you changed your numbers. In my opinion the worst symbols are %^ and I don't use them very often anyway.

Your switch seems pretty successful. I'd consider mine to be less so. I guess your starting point really makes a difference. If you don't know how to touch type from the beginning, you benefit from an alternative layout a lot more.

Have your QWERTY skills improved also? If not, you can probably reteach it to yourself pretty quickly -- I have found it useful for applications, games, and other computers that are simply not friendly to other layouts.

Teaching it to your sons will probably be a success. It's like teaching them with a blank keyboard, since looking down will be no help. Just hope that that doesn't confuse them ;).
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #75 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 09:24:10 »
Nice, ripster.
 
It reminds me of a topic way-back-when.  It was from back when the forum had a slightly more "writer" angle (the "hack" in "Geekhack").


Offline ricercar

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« Reply #76 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 11:54:49 »
Quote from: ripster;158590
I did teach my son to write clearly using paragraphs with a topic sentence and clear conclusion though.

Good show. I taught Freshman Composition for 2.5 years. Alas, many kids come to university without knowing how to construct a paragraph, or how to argue from a thesis.

Some geekhackers, too! :frusty:
« Last Edit: Tue, 16 February 2010, 12:04:37 by ricercar »
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline wolf

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« Reply #77 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 13:38:40 »
Viett, the starting point did certainly help.  When it comes to resting fingers on home keys, looking at the screen and going for it, the muscle memory is pure Dvorak.

For QWERTY, I still have to look at the board and hunt and peck (which is the correct way to use QWERTY - the way Dr Sholes designed it to be used when he went all out to make it harder to type quickly), I look up to the screen occasionally to check.  The thing I have to fight is my impulse to put my fingers on the home keys - I do that and I type gibberish - Dvorak fingering on a QWERTY board.

Thankfully, it's rare that I have to use someone else's machine - rare enough that I don't bother switching the input layout.

My boys have QWERTY machines at school - until such time as I teach them how to change the language settings to Dvorak and back.  I have no desire for them to ever learn how to touch type on QWERTY for the same reason I wouldn't teach them to use the back of an axe to bash in nails - it was never designed with that purpose in mind and is downright dangerous.

When Remington and Scholes devised their typewriter, there was no such thing as touch typing or speed typing.  Typewriters' sole function was print-quality lettering for the average person and Scholes was happy if it enabled you to bang out 20-30 words per minute.  It was designed for people to hammer at with two fingers - and his layout deliberately split common digraphs to force the typist to hurdle rows and rove all over the board.

Later touch typing demonstrated the efficacy of his design in that regard - when assigning home keys and what fingers strike which keys, it becomes apparent that common digraphs have to be typed using the same finger, often hurdling the "home row" to do so, common letters are assigned to the bottom row and/or to weak fingers, most words are written with the left hand only.

QWERTY is the axe, writing is the nails, Dvorak is a hammer -as is ARENSITO and a number of other purpose made layouts designed to make better use of the hands.

If my boys only ever pound two fingered on a QWERTY board and type fluidly on Dvorak, I will be well pleased - I'm not going to set them on the path to RSI by expecting them to touch type on a layout that was specifically designed to make that as difficult, frustrating and physically stressful as possible.

Ripster, good on you for teaching your kids proper use of paragraphs - a skill so few know, these days.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline Viett

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« Reply #78 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 14:38:57 »
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with your stance on QWERTY. The physical positions of your fingers on the keyboard is the same no matter your layout, assuming you're not using one of these crazy finger layouts.

Touch typing was created for QWERTY. Just because QWERTY may be a bit more difficult to type (be careful, there is NO evidence that suggests that QWERTY is any slower than any alternative), does not mean that it cannot be touch typed effectively.

I would strongly encourage you to touch type in QWERTY. I have a feeling a lot of your typing success can be attributed more to the method of touch typing than the Dvorak layout.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
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Offline wolf

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« Reply #79 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 15:51:26 »
Not a lot wrong with the physical position of the fingers on the keyboard, it's the layout of the letters at fault with QWERTY.

Sholes, working for Remington, designed a machine to create print-quality lettering that could be marketed.  His original design jammed terribly and he commissioned a study on the most commonly used letters in the English language and used that study to deliberately scatter those letters across the board.  His resultant layout was slightly modified by Remington - they moved the R to the top row so that their salesdroids could type "typewriter" quickly when demonstrating it.

Later those who used the machines frequently came up with the hand positioning (choosing which row and keys were "home") and finger assignments (diagonally left and up, right and down from the home keys rather than the other way) of touch typing.

What Dvorak and others did was to look the way touch typists work - specifically at the waste movement inherent in the layout of the letters on the keys, and devised other layouts that were more efficient - placing more common digraphs in such a way as to be typed efficiently with minimal stretching or hurdling.

QWERTY was never initially designed for touch typing - quite the opposite, the last thing Sholes wanted was for people to type quickly on his machine and jam the type bars.  Touch typing is what people came up with to try to type faster - by which stage QWERTY had become the de facto standard.  If the DHIATENSOR keyboard had been more commercially successful, they would have been inventing touch typing on that layout.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline wolf

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« Reply #80 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 18:51:58 »
and by moving the common digraphs further apart it also slows down the typing - especially if both letters are on the same half of the board - and therefore most likely used by the same hand.

Slowing down the typing not only stops adjacent bars from binding, it gives the bars time to return to rest - and thus get out of the way of the next.

That is no longer necessary (in fact, it was no longer necessary within Sholes' lifetime as the quality of machines improved - but that did not prompt him to change the layout to one that made more sense) and QWERTY users are stuck with a large number of combinations of letters that require hurdling over the home keys or using the same finger to hit successive letters or both - for example "ce" requires the left middle finger to reach down to the bottom row then hurdle the home row to the top row.

On Dvorak, that same digraph is a single reach one row up with one finger and a home key with another finger (on the other hand, even) - equates to pressing "ID" on a QWERTY board.

Which can you touch type fastest on a QWERTY board: "CE" (left middle down then hurdle home key (D) to top row) or "ID" (Right middle up then press left middle)?  Try typing both those as fast as possible and see which you can do faster.

The combination "kjd" is utter nonsense on the QWERTY board, but it is very easy and quick to type - all home letters, no fingers need to move anywhere but straight down on their respective caps.  Right middle then index, rapidly followed by left middle.

On the Dvorak layout, those three keys correspond to the letters "t", "h" and "e" so that bit of easy-to-type "nonsense" on the QWERTY board is one of the most common words in the English language if the keys are arranged in the Dvorak layout.

Each of those three letters require a reach on the QWERTY layout.

"Minimum": none of the keys are on QWERTY's home row, index finger has to switch between m and n on the bottom row as well as hurdle the home row to reach u on the top.

On Dvorak, the only letter not on the home row is "M" - and the index finger can hover on it while typing that word - just as the left index can hover over the "I" in readiness for the second one before returning to its home over the "U".

Also, on the QWERTY board, "minimum" is typed solely with the right hand.  On Dvorak it is spread between the hands.

Dvorak and others based their designs on watching touch typists at work then striving to minimise muscle movements for comfort and efficiency.

Dvorak and his brother in law studied slow motion footage of typists, the common letters of the English language and the physiology of the hand and based their design on fairly sound ideas such as it being faster and easier if you don't have to move your fingers from the home row.

Given that QWERTY only has one vowel on the home row, typing most words entails taking your fingers from the home row - automatically slowing you down and increasing fatigue.

Other factors come into it - alternating hands, progression from outer to inner fingers, reaching up a row easier and faster than curling down a row and so on.

It's been calculated that a QWERTY typist's fingers move around twenty times further than that of a Dvorak typist's to type the same text - I'm sure I can walk a mile in less time than I can walk 20.

Without taking the time or effort to reach away from my 8 home keys, I can type nearly 1500 words.  On the QWERTY board the same keys give less than 160 words.  That's around 1340 words where a QWERTY typist has to reach for keys while I do not.  

If I am typing those words at 35wpm and not moving my fingers from the home key and a QWERTY typist is typing the same words, moving all about over the board at the same wpm, then obviously their fingers are moving physically faster than mine.  If they are making 70 to 100 wpm, then they are moving their fingers a lot faster than I am.

Now, how fast would those typists be if they didn't move their fingers from the home keys at all?  How fast would they be if instead of reaching, they just pressed as fast as they could - what would their characters-per-minute rate get up to?

The problem with saying "people who have retrained in Dvorak aren't much faster than they were with QWERTY" is that it's just based on characters per minute, they are not showing any metric on how fast they are actually moving their fingers whilst doing it.

While their typing speed may be the same or a trifle faster, they will be actually moving their fingers less distance and, therefore, not as fast as they had to do so before to type the same common words in the same amount of time.

Now, there are a variety of factors in that:

One, how fast can the person process the stuff they want/need to type?  If they lose the plot trying to formulate something faster than 100 words a minute, that is going to limit their typing speed no matter what layout they are using.

Also, if you type 120 per minute on QWERTY and move to Dvorak, are you really going to go all out to increase your speed to 200wpm or even 150wpm if you can type 125-130wpm with less effort than it previously took you to type 120?  

You might have the potential to type like a demon on Dvorak but in all honesty, if you can match or slightly better your speed and decrease your effort by a significant amount in the process, you're not going to bother trying to exceed your typing speed by fantastic amounts.

You might be able to run the mile in under four minutes but if your job only requires you to do it in half an hour, you'll do it in 25 minutes just to look good without overdoing it.

Unless there's some incentive to crank up the fingers to the same blinding speed as before, most people are not going to bother, they will do just enough to meet the requirements of their task.
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Offline Viett

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« Reply #81 on: Tue, 16 February 2010, 20:27:08 »
I'll try to take a hint from Ripster and keep my response organized.

There are two questions about alternative layouts that it is impossible, factually, to address: how much do they improve comfort and how much faster do they make you type. Neither of these questions can be answered, and they are completely debatable. For example, I personally believe that alternative layouts provide a negligible increase in "comfort" and speed. But this is just my opinion -- no studies exist to prove that either of these things are actually improved by alternative layouts.

For example:

Quote
Which can you touch type fastest on a QWERTY board: "CE" (left middle down then hurdle home key (D) to top row) or "ID" (Right middle up then press left middle)? Try typing both those as fast as possible and see which you can do faster.

...

Also, on the QWERTY board, "minimum" is typed solely with the right hand. On Dvorak it is spread between the hands.


How does this affect average typing speed? When you move keys around, you make other key combinations harder to type. Secondly, you cannot convert ease of typing (distance traveled) into a theoretical increase in typing speed.

The only thing you can state as fact with alternative layouts is that it takes less "effort". And when I say less "effort," I mean less distance traveled for your fingers. But this does not mean that it is more enjoyable to type.


Onto my opinion..

As you said, QWERTY takes vastly more finger distance to type things than an alternative layout. So why do I think that Dvorak doesn't significantly improve "comfort" (how enjoyable it is to type the layout)?

For one, I have touch typed both layouts for about the same time (~2 years each, broken QWERTY before that), and I don't think Dvorak is significantly more comfortable. I have even typed Dvorak more than I've typed QWERTY in these two years.

I sometimes prefer QWERTY. Sometimes it just flows nicer. Dvorak is extremely bottom-row oriented, and some of the easiest keys (WE) are symbols on Dvorak (,.). "QU" words are awkward to type at high speeds. The "L" is in one of the worst places possible. Also, the ZXCV cluster are gone in Dvorak and the typist has to either resort to two-handed shortcuts,
or shift/control + insert.

My personal experience tells me that "comfort" and "effort," as I defined above, are not the same thing.


To conclude, a rather bold statement:

No one can prove that alternative layouts are faster or improve comfort. Alternative layouts take less physical effort to type, because finger travel is lower.


And if you want my opinion, alternative layouts could be vastly less effective at increasing speed and typing comfort than learning touch typing alone. I would not be surprised if most of what you're experiencing as an increase in comfort is just a result of learning to touch type.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline wolf

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« Reply #82 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 01:37:37 »
Quote from: Viett;158740
My personal experience tells me that "comfort" and "effort," as I defined above, are not the same thing.


Fair enough comment.


Quote from: Viett;158740
And if you want my opinion, alternative layouts could be vastly less effective at increasing speed and typing comfort than learning touch typing alone. I would not be surprised if most of what you're experiencing as an increase in comfort is just a result of learning to touch type.

You may well be correct - I do not have your experience in touch typing QWERTY to make a comparison.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #83 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 06:23:06 »
Quote from: Viett;158740
To conclude, a rather bold statement:

No one can prove that alternative layouts are faster or improve comfort. Alternative layouts take less physical effort to type, because finger travel is lower.


Well that isn't a real conclusion, because you've stopped short of saying how to proceed. You can't prove those things? So you're just going to avoid making a choice?

Sit or get off the pot!

I've been a Qwerty user for decades. But only last year did I learn to touch type. First Qwerty, then Colemak. I prefer Colemak, and that's what I use now. There are hardware-based Colemak keyboards available now, so when I need one for work purposes that eliminates any possible obstacle.

Offline Viett

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« Reply #84 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 07:49:48 »
Quote
Well that isn't a real conclusion, because you've stopped short of saying how to proceed. You can't prove those things? So you're just going to avoid making a choice?


I have my opinions, but it would be hypocritical to think they're the truth. Is Dvorak a bit more comfortable? I think so. Is Colemak even better? I think it is. But I'm really bothered by the all the fancy number analyzers thrown around, because they really don't tell you how much better other layouts are quantitatively. All those percents and they can't tell you how much better an alternative layout really is.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 February 2010, 08:51:35 by Viett »
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #85 on: Wed, 17 February 2010, 09:35:30 »
Yes it depends on the person, and the text being typed affects the stats. I just think Qwerty doesn't have a leg to stand on. The fact that well over 50% of typed characters are done on the top row is a farce. Just swapping the top two rows of letters around would improve it enormously!

Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #86 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 03:18:47 »
'...no one can prove...' is a ridiculous statement unless you're into logical positivism (in which case no one can prove anything at all - and no one has proven logical positivism to be worth anything, hehe!); I think you meant to say '...no one has proved...' instead?

I used to think that the QWERTY's placement of the letter 'e' was completely horrid, but I'm not so sure anymore. While typing courses do teach us about the home row, I have a feeling that in real-life typing the long middle fingers tend upwards toward the upper row which makes the 'e' more of a home-row-ish glyph after all! So maybe that particular bit isn't so awful as I thought. There's still plenty of criticisms to make against QWERTY of course...

Nowadays, I wouldn't teach kids Dvorak but Colemak but then again I'm biased since I use and love Colemak a lot. It's slightly harder to implement since it's not included in Windows nor Apple OS yet, but I think that'll change eventually since it's on the rise and has been increasing steadily (if a bit slowly in the start) since 2006. I have a good feeling about it. At any rate, there are plenty of methods you can remap by and some of them are completely portable and very powerful.

Users of all layouts can make minor changes to the key setup without changing layout per se! Improvements in wrist angle and hand separation are quite easily achieved at the mere cost of a few of the lesser used punctuation placements, without changing the fingering for anything important! I use a 'Wide' mod right now, with left hand wrist angle improvement (since I have an ISO keyboard - with their key placements it's particularly extra to do some nifty tricks). Highly recommended.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 February 2010, 03:22:04 by DreymaR »
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #87 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 03:25:08 »
Quote from: Rajagra;158777
There are hardware-based Colemak keyboards available now...


Yep. I still recommend a Unicomp (or whatever customizeable board suits your typing fancy) though, even if that means you have to pop off and move around a few keys. It's really easy to do and I'd think it beats using a commercial hardware Colemak board that's in reality a membrane board that Hooleon has done exactly the same thing to!  :)

The only problem with that is the homing bumps. I don't need a new bump on the left hand since the F bump is still in a homeable position, and on the right hand I got a black unmarked key with a bump in the index finger's home position. (I changed the whole UNEI arrow block to black for style points while I was at it - at some point I'll post an image.)
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 February 2010, 03:27:45 by DreymaR »
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #88 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 04:32:37 »
The situation I was thinking of was tightly controlled setups where a company won't allow even minor software changes, for security purposes ("rules are rules", they will say.) A keyboard with hardware based alternative layout gets around that problem.

Some places will forbid using your own keyboard too. Rules are often considered to be more important than common sense. Sadly there is no hardware solution to stupidity.

Offline wolf

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« Reply #89 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 04:40:26 »
Quote from: Rajagra;159084
Sadly there is no hardware solution to stupidity.

There is...

Time for a LART party!
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline wolf

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« Reply #90 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 05:04:17 »
My work won't issue me with a non-standard keyboard unless I get a medical cert from a doctor but they have nothing against me buying and supplying my own (which I did as I wanted a compact board so I could move the mouse closer) - they just put it down to me being weird (all those years of building up that reputation paid off...).

So I use a compact "Rock" board at work identical to the one I use at home.  When I can afford it, I'll buy another Trackman Wheel and leave that at work, too.  And another i-rocks number pad.

I found the backspace key (which I use a lot as I often miss the home keys if I'm not looking when returning my hands to the board - the scratches I made on U and H are nowhere near as easy to feel as the bumps on the F and J keys were...) too hard to reach quickly but the keyboard had a blank key to the left of the space that I keytweaked into a backspace - reminiscent of those boards with the split spacebar that could be set to turn one of the spaces into a backspace.

Then I decided to put shift under the control of my right thumb as I was using left shift exclusively - too easy to accidentally hit Z instead of right shift, so I wasn't using it.

So I keytweaked the right alt into a shift and prised off the shift keys so I wouldn't touch them.  Then I shortened the space bar and extended the new shift key to the left to make it easier to reach.

By now, it's not only my workmates who know I'm weird...
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline ds26gte

  • Posts: 39
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« Reply #91 on: Thu, 18 February 2010, 10:10:05 »
Quote from: Rajagra;158796
Yes it depends on the person, and the text being typed affects the stats. I just think Qwerty doesn't have a leg to stand on. The fact that well over 50% of typed characters are done on the top row is a farce. Just swapping the top two rows of letters around would improve it enormously!

Well, one can get too stuck up on a purely geometrical definition of home row.  I think the virtual home row in QWERTY is a straggling line that meanders in and out of the top row.  Also: it is not a pessimal layout by any means -- things could have been much much worse.

I am also given pause from being too anti-QWERTY from the fact that QWERTY typists routinely pwn me in typing tests, and they don't seem to be doing so from hospital beds either.
Bloody B820R with LK blues. Logitech Marble Mouse unplugged and inside a drawer for emergencies.

Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #92 on: Fri, 19 February 2010, 07:07:00 »
That only shows the feasibility of typing fast and without developing RSI on a QWERTY board - not the likelihood of it (which as mentioned is hard to measure).

Considering the pool of QWERTY typists who have had more than ten years of practice, I don't think the improved layouts are doing badly at all! But again, really hard to measure reliably since most Colemak typists are bound to be typing enthusiasts anyway.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #93 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 04:29:58 »
Quote from: wolf;159087

I found the backspace key (which I use a lot as I often miss the home keys if I'm not looking when returning my hands to the board - the scratches I made on U and H are nowhere near as easy to feel as the bumps on the F and J keys were...) too hard to reach quickly but the keyboard had a blank key to the left of the space that I keytweaked into a backspace - reminiscent of those boards with the split spacebar that could be set to turn one of the spaces into a backspace.


I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout.  It's feels like an improvement already.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline wolf

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« Reply #94 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 06:12:43 »
Quote from: hoggy;159559
I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout.  It's feels like an improvement already.

Hmmmmm, great plan.  I can't recall the last time I needed to use the caps lock, but I can think of a number of other keys that are hard/inconvenient to reach that I do use frequently and could be happily swapped over.

Since I've got that convenient odd-ball key next to the space to be my backspace, I guess I'll have to think of a different key to map onto the caps lock key.  Ctrl is one that springs to mind - I certainly use that often enough and it's not the easiest key to reach on my compact keyboard...

Thanks for the idea.
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline fastbuck

  • Posts: 32
Just switced to Dvorak.
« Reply #95 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 06:47:52 »
Just wanted to get a word out - I'm a long term Colemak user and if anybody is looking for mechanical keyboard that can be set to Colemak layout - check out Avant Stellar and Avant Prime from CVT. They are fully programmable, and all keys can be re-mapped - that setting is stored on the keyboard controller and is retained even if you switch PCs.

I've got both Avant Stellar and Avant Prime, and reprogrammed the Stellar to Colemak for the time I'm using somebody else's PC and don't want to mess with the layout.

This keyboards uses white clicky Alps and are successors of Northgate Omni. As a matter of fact, most parts, except for controller, are identical - I swapped quite a few parts (switches, foot pegs, retainers, stabilizers) from an old Northgate keyboard to Avants to keep them going, as I got them used and they needed some care.

Now, as far as downsides to hardware keyboard mapping - if you ever have to type in foreign language, e.g. switch layout in windows, it will mess you up, as windows expects QWERTY and so mapping will be totally off. That's why I only use keyboard with hardware mapping when I go work on servers and other people PCs.
Keyboards: IBM Model M 1391401, CVT Avant Stellar, CVT Avant Prime, Dell AT101W, TypeMatrix 2020, Compaq MX 11800, Chicony KB-5181, IBM M-13, Chicony KB-5191, Wang 724,

Pointing devices: Contour Rollermouse & Pro, Microsoft Intellimouse Trackball, Kensington TurboBall Trackball, Evoluent Vertical Mouse, 3M Ergonomic Mouse, Zero tension mouse, MS Ergonomic Laser Mouse 6000, Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Wowpen Vertical mouse, Logitech Trackman Marble, Digital Research DRTRACK Trackball

Offline ds26gte

  • Posts: 39
Just switced to Dvorak.
« Reply #96 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 09:39:53 »
Quote from: hoggy;159559
I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout.  It's feels like an improvement already.

The standard (US board) backspace location is ideal -- far enough away that one has an incentive not to depend on it, and wide enough that in moments of mad panic, a scattershot aim still gets you there.

Resist making backspacing too easy.  Good writers like Hemingway did without the backspace key.  Great writers like Mark Twain rewired it to administer an electric shock that doubled in intensity on every successive use.
Bloody B820R with LK blues. Logitech Marble Mouse unplugged and inside a drawer for emergencies.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #97 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 10:13:23 »
Quote from: ds26gte;159580
Resist making backspacing too easy.


I've had this thought myself. However, I still think CapsLock as Backspace is a vast improvement, even once you've exceeded 98% accuracy.

Maybe it's best to keep a normal backspace while you are learning a new layout?
Or you could just use this.

Offline wolf

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« Reply #98 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 14:52:28 »
Quote from: ds26gte;159580
The standard (US board) backspace location is ideal -- far enough away that one has an incentive not to depend on it, and wide enough that in moments of mad panic, a scattershot aim still gets you there.

Resist making backspacing too easy.  Good writers like Hemingway did without the backspace key.  Great writers like Mark Twain rewired it to administer an electric shock that doubled in intensity on every successive use.

I do see the logic and merit in that - and would be the first to admit that ever since I first got access to a word processor (WordStar v1.0) I've become reliant not only on the backspace but the ability to go up and insert things I've forgotten (or even completely revise what I've written.)

I am getting more accurate with my typing and don't have to use the backspace to correct mistyped keys as frequently as I used to.

Most frequent use I now have for the backspace (aside from having to quickly revise) is due to keys not registering properly and having to backspace to where the letter was missed and retype - something I pick up faster now that I can touch type as I can instantly see that I've just typed "tht" despite definitely having pressed the "a" key.  so it's a quick "backspace, a, t" to correct the word.

I dare say that my typing will improve immensely when I get a decent keyboard with tactile switches that will let me feel when I've actuated the key.  Then maybe my use of the backspace will decrease again.

Would still prefer it closer than sequestered away near the top right corner of the board.  On my compact board, the actual key is standard-sized and it's right next to the "Home" key - a scattershot aim usually had the result of, rather than deleting the preceding character as desired, sending the cursor back to the beginning of the line - with "humorous" results.  Actually not that funny when you're trying to work fast...
Have keyboard, will travel...

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #99 on: Sat, 20 February 2010, 18:12:07 »
Quote from: wolf;159672
Most frequent use I now have for the backspace (aside from having to quickly revise) is due to keys not registering properly
...
On my compact board, the actual key is standard-sized and it's right next to the "Home" key - a scattershot aim usually had the result of, rather than deleting the preceding character as desired, sending the cursor back to the beginning of the line


Those are two faults affecting my Cherry ML4100 boards (keys can bind, Home is next to Backspace.)

Something had to change: