Author Topic: NOW OPEN SOURCE!!! swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]  (Read 2748948 times)

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Offline evera

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1000 on: Sat, 02 May 2015, 03:45:37 »
It cost me about $80 for the material + cutting of top plate, bottom plate, and about 5 middle layers (because i'm thiniking about using 1.5mm it would be nice to just have some extra middle layers stocked up). Steep, but I just wanted one, haha.

3mm is a bit difficult without a PCB because lining up the stabilizers is actually not that easy (costar stabilizers snap at 1.5mm and I'm not sure how far up to push the cherry PCB mounted stabs)

Offline Fire Brand

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1001 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 04:28:28 »
Hello swill just wanted to pick your brain because I'm a big derp would there be a easy way to add a cutout for a QFR controller as I'm trying to get a replacement plate for it sorry if this has been asked before, also great tool too even O can use it O.o
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Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1002 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 06:43:21 »
Hello swill just wanted to pick your brain because I'm a big derp would there be a easy way to add a cutout for a QFR controller as I'm trying to get a replacement plate for it sorry if this has been asked before, also great tool too even O can use it O.o

Unfortunately I don't support that case type yet.  I have been having a hard time tracking down a universal TKL plate drawing I can use to validate the hole layout.  I may just have to go to town on a plate with a caliper, but I have not had the time to do that yet.  :(

Sorry dude, wish I had a better answer for you.  I think MOZ has a TKL plate drawn that you could use.  I don't remember if it is a Filco or a QFR, but JD linked it in here about 10 pages ago.  haha...  I can try to find it when I am not late for my train.  :)

EDIT: I just found MOZ's tool and it builds a sandwich case (not a replacement tkl plate), so that is not going to help.  Here are a couple relevant links (not helpful, but awesome work that needs more air time).  :)
- simliar tool to mine for a TKL layout: http://www.moz.twisted-artworx.com/TKLCase/
- an awesome tkl case for the phanom by MOZ: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48007.msg1032605#msg1032605
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2015, 07:49:41 by swill »

Offline Acanthophis

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1003 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:15:02 »
Hm, the tool doesn't work for me properly. I always get additional material above the plate for (to me) no apparent reason. Left shift is wrong as well. I'm not sure if the stepped capslock is right either.
I put in the raw data from here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5
Did no special options and selected 60% Poker plate.
Here's a pic of the tooled plate: http://i.imgur.com/QWUV2Wd.png

Offline jonlorusso

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1004 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:20:12 »

Offline Acanthophis

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1005 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 14:54:57 »
Oh, never occured to me. Now the additional material makes sense. Thanks, I will try again.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1006 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:44:45 »
Hm, the tool doesn't work for me properly. I always get additional material above the plate for (to me) no apparent reason. Left shift is wrong as well. I'm not sure if the stepped capslock is right either.
I put in the raw data from here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e4e4a9db64cf54b5fba25bf27e2a8ec5
Did no special options and selected 60% Poker plate.
Here's a pic of the tooled plate: http://i.imgur.com/QWUV2Wd.png

As for the left shift being wrong, it is because your source layout is wrong.  You have a few things that are a bit of a mess around there actually.

You have:
Code: [Select]
{w:1.5,w2:2.25},"Shift",{x:0.75},"Z",{x:-1},"Z\n\n\n\nDel",
It should be:
Code: [Select]
{w:2.25},"Shift","Z\n\n\n\nDel",
This layout should fix your problems:  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8162c9efa7f9c33bbb7a2966fcf22df7

EDIT: I just tested this layout and it works...
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:46:46 by swill »

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1007 on: Tue, 05 May 2015, 16:55:19 »
And crap. I've been building towards a custom keyboard that fits in a TEX CNC case and my numbers don't line up to the ones on the site at all. Worst part is the 3d printed prototype totally fits, but I'm at least 3mm off of both Swill's and JD's numbers, and the effect is cumulative (I had to set the unit length to be 19.2 in order for there to not be a ton of slop). I got some tough decisions to make before I get a plate cut...

Hmmm, that's strange. Send me what you have, and I can check it for you. Maybe we can figure out what's going on.

Ya, I can take a look too.  Just send us the files.

Hey thanks guys, it's much appreciated.

so I made a little album here:

http://imgur.com/a/vjZZI

the first image is the three plates, JDCarpe's DXF in the middle (which is reversed for some reason, but you can see the outline) and Swill's exported STL at the top. I've got around a 3mm difference on you guys, which sounds trivial, but it's across the whole board, so the further right screw holes don't line up at all. The plate I printed on my 3d printer fits the case though in both dimensions really well, which is a fair stroke of coincidence if the sizing is wrong, since the key units are still square - I just upped the side's length from 19.05 to 19.2 and slop on both sides of the plate disappeared perfectly.

The print also seems to be pretty dimensionally accurate, as I have the total length coming in at 288mm, and the case seems to be around 277.5mm or so in the third picture.

my designs aren't proprietary or anything so I'll attach the STL and SCAD here but if we want to continue this elsewhere in order to not gum up the thread that's fine too. Where did you get your numbers from JD? maybe the tex case has extra slop around the edges

Sorry for being MIA on this.  Did you get it sorted out?  I will review it tonight if you still have problems to see what the deal is.

Offline jonlorusso

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1008 on: Thu, 07 May 2015, 18:34:26 »
Sorry if this has been asked before, but are there any plans to support rotated (by some angle) keys (a la ErgoDox thumb keys, etc.) in the plate builder?

Offline tjweir

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1009 on: Fri, 08 May 2015, 09:46:53 »
After finding no providers that are cheaper and local, I just sent my first order to BBS, thanks @swill!!

Offline go3001

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1010 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 05:38:08 »
(x-post r/MK)
I decided to build a custom from scratch when I saw the Gateron groupbuy on GH. Since I have no CAD skills I decided to use SwillKB.

I started putting it together today and noticed the stabilised keys get stuck when pressed. After close inspection and every combination of switch, wire holder, clip orientation and lubing I found that the keycap clip is sliding against the wire holder with a lot of force, the wire would also clip on the inside of keycap and holding it.

Found the universal plate groupbuy on GH and compared the designs, here are the results: http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp.

Also thank you for this service, I will definitely donate once it's fully built  :thumb:
Filco MJ2 TKL MX red, black/red Vortex doubleshot PBT (main)
Leopold 210TP MX green/brown/blue/black/red/clear, OEM laser-etched PBT (osu/tester/work)
Poker II MX clear, Vortex doubleshot PBT/POM, TEX Acrylic case, white LED (travel)
Custom TKL Gateron brown, white/blue Vortex doubleshot PBT, RGB surround LED (gift)
Custom TKL Gateron blue, RGB surround LED (building)

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1011 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 08:56:10 »
(x-post r/MK)
I decided to build a custom from scratch when I saw the Gateron groupbuy on GH. Since I have no CAD skills I decided to use SwillKB.

I started putting it together today and noticed the stabilised keys get stuck when pressed. After close inspection and every combination of switch, wire holder, clip orientation and lubing I found that the keycap clip is sliding against the wire holder with a lot of force, the wire would also clip on the inside of keycap and holding it.

Found the universal plate groupbuy on GH and compared the designs, here are the results: http://imgur.com/a/Snwlp.

Also thank you for this service, I will definitely donate once it's fully built  :thumb:
Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?

Offline go3001

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1012 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 20:25:53 »
Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?

Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):


Stuck key:


Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 May 2015, 20:30:27 by go3001 »
Filco MJ2 TKL MX red, black/red Vortex doubleshot PBT (main)
Leopold 210TP MX green/brown/blue/black/red/clear, OEM laser-etched PBT (osu/tester/work)
Poker II MX clear, Vortex doubleshot PBT/POM, TEX Acrylic case, white LED (travel)
Custom TKL Gateron brown, white/blue Vortex doubleshot PBT, RGB surround LED (gift)
Custom TKL Gateron blue, RGB surround LED (building)

Offline neverused

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1013 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 20:39:53 »
I had a similar issue with a 1.5 mm plate cut from acrylic with this tool. I did not adjust for kerf when submitting to ponoko and did it on a whim, but I just trimmed some the insert off and it worked just fine.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1014 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 22:20:14 »
I had a similar issue with a 1.5 mm plate cut from acrylic with this tool. I did not adjust for kerf when submitting to ponoko and did it on a whim, but I just trimmed some the insert off and it worked just fine.
Thanks for letting me know. Where did you trim?

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1015 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 22:21:11 »
Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?

Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):
Show Image


Stuck key:
Show Image


Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:
Show Image

Is this only for a costar stabilizer on the costar+cherry cutout or did I mid something?

Offline go3001

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1016 on: Sat, 09 May 2015, 23:11:24 »
Interestingly my drawing is based exactly on the cherry spec. Can you better describe where the rubbing is happening?

Here is a cap simply resting on switch (it's worse if I flip the clip):
Show Image


Stuck key:
Show Image


Can't see it very well but the wire is clipped inside the cap:
Show Image

Is this only for a costar stabilizer on the costar+cherry cutout or did I mid something?

I don't have Cherry stabilisers to test with. Just got back from buying sand paper, will let you know soon how it turns out
Filco MJ2 TKL MX red, black/red Vortex doubleshot PBT (main)
Leopold 210TP MX green/brown/blue/black/red/clear, OEM laser-etched PBT (osu/tester/work)
Poker II MX clear, Vortex doubleshot PBT/POM, TEX Acrylic case, white LED (travel)
Custom TKL Gateron brown, white/blue Vortex doubleshot PBT, RGB surround LED (gift)
Custom TKL Gateron blue, RGB surround LED (building)

Offline go3001

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1017 on: Sun, 10 May 2015, 00:08:10 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 May 2015, 06:04:38 by go3001 »
Filco MJ2 TKL MX red, black/red Vortex doubleshot PBT (main)
Leopold 210TP MX green/brown/blue/black/red/clear, OEM laser-etched PBT (osu/tester/work)
Poker II MX clear, Vortex doubleshot PBT/POM, TEX Acrylic case, white LED (travel)
Custom TKL Gateron brown, white/blue Vortex doubleshot PBT, RGB surround LED (gift)
Custom TKL Gateron blue, RGB surround LED (building)

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1018 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 03:00:24 »
I'm thinking of getting this produced: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a9cea133f37d9c76602dffb7257f49ef (6 of it)

With Costar only stabilisers and standard cutouts for an 60% case

I'm not sure what plate rounding and Kerf I should use

The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)

I would really appreciate some suggestions
(the main reason I want the plates is because I don't like the standard plates of the infinity keyboard, the Cherry+Costar stabs are not optimal for Costar stabs, the alps+cherry cutouts leave too much of a wiggle space and result in crooked switches)
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline TD22057

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1019 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 21:45:31 »
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)

I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness.  I'm curious what materials people are using as well.  It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest.  And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet?  I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for. 

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1020 on: Mon, 11 May 2015, 23:11:16 »
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)

I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness.  I'm curious what materials people are using as well.  It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest.  And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet?  I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for.

I also figured 0.06" was as close to optimal as many options get, with 0.059" being a better option, the added minor height from 0.06" might cause cause stabs/switches to not latch (?)

I don't know much about the manufacturing routines, but even the slightest imperfections cause a lot of issues, as they prevent the switch from symmetrically latching on, or cause stab issues as go3001 experienced, that's why I want to learn about the experience of others before I decide to attempt it myself (or If I'm going to attempt it at all)

I was thinking of 0.06 316 stainless steel, however I didn't check the pricing

The infinity plates have 304 stainless steel, they are beautiful, yet the first batch had manufacturing impurities, they also lack the 6th 60% hole and have cherry+costar stabs + alps+cherry cutouts, I really don't like cherry+costar stabs or alps+cherry cutouts, they cause issues similar to what go3001 is experiencing
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1021 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:11:57 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?

I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

100333-0

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1022 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:17:19 »
The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)

I'm pretty sure 1.5 mm (or around ~0.06") is the standard Cherry plate thickness.  I'm curious what materials people are using as well.  It looks like the aluminum 6061 is the cheapest.  And are people getting the regular or low taper water jet?  I'd assume that for such a thin part that the low taper isn't worth paying for.

I also figured 0.06" was as close to optimal as many options get, with 0.059" being a better option, the added minor height from 0.06" might cause cause stabs/switches to not latch (?)

I don't know much about the manufacturing routines, but even the slightest imperfections cause a lot of issues, as they prevent the switch from symmetrically latching on, or cause stab issues as go3001 experienced, that's why I want to learn about the experience of others before I decide to attempt it myself (or If I'm going to attempt it at all)

I was thinking of 0.06 316 stainless steel, however I didn't check the pricing

The infinity plates have 304 stainless steel, they are beautiful, yet the first batch had manufacturing impurities, they also lack the 6th 60% hole and have cherry+costar stabs + alps+cherry cutouts, I really don't like cherry+costar stabs or alps+cherry cutouts, they cause issues similar to what go3001 is experiencing

Yes, 0.06" works, but you can't do any thicker than that or the switches won't clip in.

Most people use aluminium.  I would say about 70% of people use aluminum.  The remaining 29.9% use stainless steel.  I am the 0.01% that used brass...

Check my notes in the previous post regarding the Cherry + Costar stabilizer cutout.  I will try to fix that later this week and I will update the thread when it is fixed.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1023 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:18:58 »
I'm thinking of getting this produced: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a9cea133f37d9c76602dffb7257f49ef (6 of it)

With Costar only stabilisers and standard cutouts for an 60% case

I'm not sure what plate rounding and Kerf I should use

The main challenge is the plate thickness, I'm not sure what's the optimal value for cherry switches and costar stabs, I'm also not sure which material and thickness and manufacturer to choose from (https://www.bigbluesaw.com/ seems nice, as suggested by swillkb)

I would really appreciate some suggestions
(the main reason I want the plates is because I don't like the standard plates of the infinity keyboard, the Cherry+Costar stabs are not optimal for Costar stabs, the alps+cherry cutouts leave too much of a wiggle space and result in crooked switches)

Sorry, I don't support alps stabilizers yet.  :(

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1024 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:22:14 »
In other news... 

I spent a bunch of time last night working on a way to give people the ability to modify the shape of their 'rounded' corners.

Here is a teaser.  The number represents the number of segments used to make the corner.

100335-0 100337-1 100339-2 ... 100341-3
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:23:50 by swill »

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1025 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 10:32:58 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?


Is this bug for the Costar only plate?

I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.

Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

(Attachment Link)

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1026 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:07:14 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?


Is this bug for the Costar only plate?

I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.

Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

(Attachment Link)

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...

100344-0

100346-1

100348-2

I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have.  I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1027 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:11:11 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?


Is this bug for the Costar only plate?

I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.

Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

(Attachment Link)

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have.  I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
I have done costar only, they work great!

In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1028 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:15:11 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?


Is this bug for the Costar only plate?

I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.

Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

(Attachment Link)

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have.  I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
I have done costar only, they work great!

In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/
Maybe let me tweak that cutout before you order so you will have more confidence in that piece before you order?  When are you planning to out the order in?

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1029 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:20:29 »
It works! The sliders now slides... but the wire still clips onto the inside of cap, though it comes back up, it feels like ****. Sanding cap now

Update: The wire holder clips onto the cap too, sanded (see image) and now everything works as they should.
Show Image

Source: WASD

BTW where can you buy Cherry stabilisers?


Is this bug for the Costar only plate?

I am soon starting this (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71034.30) group buy and want to know if i should update my design or not.

Anyways, awesome tool. Expect some donations after my GB :)
I couldn't figure out what you meant initially, but I figured it out.  I actually tested it on my plate to validate the problem.

So this is what is causing the problem:

(Attachment Link)

The red box shows where the problem is coming from.  Notice that the blue lines, one representing the insert in the keycap and the other representing the vertical piece on the costar stab do not line up (exaggerated in the image).  Because of this there is friction between the insert and the stabilizer piece.  Thank you for pointing this out.  This should only affect the Cherry + Costar cutout and only when trying to use costar stabilizers in that cutout.  I will adjust my drawing to fix this.

Thanks again for pointing this out.  :)

It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

Here are some images of the different cutouts superimposed on each other so you can see what I mean...

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I have compared against JDcarpe's cutout and he has pushed the top bit up a little more than I have.  I remember him saying that the costar stabs did not clip very well into his cutout though, so I may need to talk to him and see if I can find anyone who has done the costar only stabs to know for sure.
I have done costar only, they work great!

In my groupbuy, I will use Cherry+Costar. I hope it works :-/
Maybe let me tweak that cutout before you order so you will have more confidence in that piece before you order?  When are you planning to out the order in?
I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.

If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1030 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:24:43 »
I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.

If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.

Alright, let me know how your tests go, but I suspect that a bit of tweaking may be needed for your samples.  I have a keyboard here I got cut, so I will do a bunch of testing.  I will take a file to it and see if I can come up with some good adaptations to that cutout.  I will let you know when I have updated the code.

EDIT: BTW, how are you getting your plates cut by?

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1031 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 11:27:07 »
I have bought samples now. They arrive tomorrow and I will test them. If you could tweak the stabs, I would be really grateful. I am not going to order the plates before I have had the group buy orders open a while so no need to hurry.

If you are sure that they will work with the new tweak, my life is complete. I think I have cashed out enough money on samples.

Alright, let me know how your tests go, but I suspect that a bit of tweaking may be needed for your samples.  I have a keyboard here I got cut, so I will do a bunch of testing.  I will take a file to it and see if I can come up with some good adaptations to that cutout.  I will let you know when I have updated the code.

EDIT: BTW, how are you getting your plates cut by?
I will! Won't get my Cherry Stabs before next week though. I will test everything else in the meantime. :)

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1032 on: Tue, 12 May 2015, 15:14:27 »
I am getting my plates from an unknown Chinese supplier in higher quantities. (i can PM you the excact one if you are really interested)

Here is a picture of one of the samples: http://i.imgur.com/DgnqOFn.png.

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1033 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 08:27:48 »
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:



However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1034 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 11:27:52 »
It should not be a problem with the costar only stabilizer given that I followed the only spec I had for it.  That being said, reviewing the measurements, the difference between the two cutouts is smaller than I was expecting (0.07mm), so I may need to get someone to verify that the costar only cutout is working perfectly.

The costar only cutout is not working for me. I have the same problem you demonstrate here:

Show Image


However, I've decided I really don't like costar stabs in the meantime so my next iteration will use cherry stabs.
OK. I am getting conflicting reports on this, but to me that says that the tolerances are too tight. I will adapt both cutouts a bit to accommodate. Thx for letting me know.

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1035 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:44:31 »
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).

L



Offline KHAANNN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1036 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:47:20 »
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).

L

Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?

Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1037 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:49:05 »
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).

L

Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?

Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move
Will test it again. I just want to know if the problem earlier in this thread apply to me. Thanks

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1038 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 12:57:49 »
I think even comparing photos of a regular costar-stabbed plate and the swill plates might uncover what the issue really is, from the photos, it seems like an 2mm error, which is just extreme

On a WASD V2, the costar stab insert moves in the middle, on my infinity keyboard, the cherry+costar one works well, but only when you push the stab base to the furthest point, so it's a pretty close call
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1039 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 14:52:34 »
Hey Swill!
I got the samples today and I currently only have Costar to test with. The space bar works beautifully! The right shift is sticky(only 2u I have tested).

L

Did you push the costar stab base as further as it goes?

Sometimes it seems they fit snugly, yet there might be a lot of space hidden by friction that the base can move

I will test this as well on my plate tonight.  My plate is 1.6mm thick, so that could also play into this.  I will do some more testing to see.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1040 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 14:54:32 »
BTW, I just wanted to give a big shoutout to everyone who is helping me with this testing.  I really appreciate all your feedback.  :)

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1041 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 15:37:48 »
BTW, I just wanted to give a big shoutout to everyone who is helping me with this testing.  I really appreciate all your feedback.  :)

Well, thank you for the builder, it opens up a lot of possibilities

I was thinking of getting plates manufactured, but I'm also thinking about 3d printing them now, an 60% plate might just fit my 3d printer if it's turned 45 degrees, or I might just cut it in two and combine it later on, somehow

You might also benefit from a 3d printer significantly, you could've fixed this issue in an hour, with 4-5 retries/experiments
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1042 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 15:40:59 »
BTW, I just wanted to give a big shoutout to everyone who is helping me with this testing.  I really appreciate all your feedback.  :)

Well, thank you for the builder, it opens up a lot of possibilities

I was thinking of getting plates manufactured, but I'm also thinking about 3d printing them now, an 60% plate might just fit my 3d printer if it's turned 45 degrees, or I might just cut it in two and combine it later on, somehow

You might also benefit from a 3d printer significantly, you could've fixed this issue in an hour, with 4-5 retries/experiments
Just can't justify buying one. My wife already thinks (rightfully) that I spend too much time/money on this hobby. :)

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1043 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 16:15:45 »
I have a 1,5mm plate. But which plate did they problem occur? Cherry+costar, cherry only or costar only? And with which stab?

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1044 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 18:06:04 »
I have a 1,5mm plate. But which plate did they problem occur? Cherry+costar, cherry only or costar only? And with which stab?
Cherry+Costar cutout with costar stab. I have a suspicion that it is hard to clip in the stab correctly which results in this. JD said he had issues getting the costar stab to clip into his cutout without some persuasion, so I suspect this may also apply to my cutout. I will do more tests later tonight.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1045 on: Wed, 13 May 2015, 22:17:19 »
I did a bunch more tests tonight.  I have confirmed that both PCB and Plate mounted cherry switches work well in the Cherry + Costar cutout.  I have reconfirmed that there is an issue with the Costar stabilizer in that cutout.  I think part of my problem is that I have a 1.6mm plate and it seems that Costar stabs will not clip into a 1.6mm plate.  It is close, but it does not feel like it is clicking in.  If I just put downward (towards the front of the keyboard) pressure on the bottom side of the stabilizer, the top side will pop out. 

Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly.  I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points.  I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.

It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.

Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me.  I really appreciate it.  :)

Offline trauring

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1046 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 01:40:22 »
When designing sandwich plates I find that the screw holes are too close to the edge of the plates. How are the hole placements calculated? I assume it has something to do with distance from the closest switch, and it has to be in the middle of the center of the open and closed middle pieces. If that was the case though, I don't think it would be showing up as close to the edge as it does in my designs.

Speaking of the open pieces, could you add an option to set the location of the opening? Even just left third, center and right third would be nice.

I noticed the discussion about the stabs above. I'm planning on making my first place out of 3mm acrylic. Obviously the switches don't clip in properly, but it works on the ErgoDox so I figure it can work for a first-attempt here as well. My question is if any kind of stabs work in a 3mm plate?

Thanks.

Offline LeandreN

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1047 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 04:22:47 »
I did a bunch more tests tonight.  I have confirmed that both PCB and Plate mounted cherry switches work well in the Cherry + Costar cutout.  I have reconfirmed that there is an issue with the Costar stabilizer in that cutout.  I think part of my problem is that I have a 1.6mm plate and it seems that Costar stabs will not clip into a 1.6mm plate.  It is close, but it does not feel like it is clicking in.  If I just put downward (towards the front of the keyboard) pressure on the bottom side of the stabilizer, the top side will pop out. 

Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly.  I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points.  I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.

It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.

Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me.  I really appreciate it.  :)
Okay. The clip is perfectly fit with my 1,5mm plate. The 2u stabs doesn't do so well, but I think it might be a faulty stab. The keycap hits the wire and get stuck.

Offline trauring

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1048 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 06:24:36 »
Taking a closer look at the output DXFs I'm wondering if the problem is the size of the middle pieces, which the holes must be in the center of. It would be helpful to understand how the width of the middle outline pieces are calculated. I also wonder if there is a minimum distance required for particular hole sizes using particular materials. Perhaps a M2 hole can be 2 mm from the edge in stainless steel, but would need to be 3mm from the edge in Acrylic, etc.

Also, what is the best resource for understanding all the precise measurements of the switch holes, stab holes, distance between them, etc. I see a lot of that is spread out through this thread, and I know Cherry has some measurement inform in their product sheets, but I'm curious if there are good online resources that explain all the variables for different switch types, different keycap sizes, cherry vs. costar stabs, mx and other switches, etc.

Lastly, for those who have built sandwich cases using Swill's tool, what materials did you use, what cutting techniques, how thick were all your plates, and how many layers did you use? Curious to hear what has worked, and also learn from what has not.

Thanks.

Offline swill

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Re: swill's plate building tool [builder.swillkb.com]
« Reply #1049 on: Thu, 14 May 2015, 08:57:29 »
I did a bunch more tests tonight.  I have confirmed that both PCB and Plate mounted cherry switches work well in the Cherry + Costar cutout.  I have reconfirmed that there is an issue with the Costar stabilizer in that cutout.  I think part of my problem is that I have a 1.6mm plate and it seems that Costar stabs will not clip into a 1.6mm plate.  It is close, but it does not feel like it is clicking in.  If I just put downward (towards the front of the keyboard) pressure on the bottom side of the stabilizer, the top side will pop out. 

Since 1.6mm is pretty common as an option when cutting plates (basically 0.06"), I want to try to make it work with that thickness even if it does not clip in perfectly.  I have also confirmed with a caliper that I have about 0.2 to 0.3 mm of space to work with in moving the stabilizer up and not run into any issues with other friction points.  I should not be surprised by this as that is pretty much exactly what JD has done with his cutout vs the cherry spec and he says he is really happy with his cutout.

It might take me a couple days to get this change implemented since I have pretty limited time right now, but I think I have all the info I need to get a fix in place.

Thanks everyone for pitching in to give feedback and validate this stuff with me.  I really appreciate it.  :)
Okay. The clip is perfectly fit with my 1,5mm plate. The 2u stabs doesn't do so well, but I think it might be a faulty stab. The keycap hits the wire and get stuck.

I will adjust the cutout a bit (hopefully tonight) which should help this...  Thx for reconfirming...