Are ALPS similar enough to Cherry MX to skip?

[Lunatique]

I know that a lot of times, comparing switches is all about the nuances. But having said that, let me ask this question:

Are ALPS similar enough in terms of feel to Cherry MX to be considered in one main category separate from Topre, buckling spring, etc? Or are they different enough that they really should be considered totally different categories?

I'm asking because I'm currently planning on getting one keyboard of each of the main switch types, but I'm not sure if ALPS are close enough to Cherry MX to be considered a separate main type (in terms of feel). I have a buckling spring on the way (Unicomp Endurapro), and will be ordering a Topre keyboard soon, and I'm not sure if I should lump Cherry MX and ALPS together as one type and just pick a keyboard I like the most from both pools of selections, or treat them as separate main types and get one keyboard from each pool.

In terms of preference, my favorite Cherry MX is blue, since I love tactile feel, but don't want really heavy force since it'll get tiring after hours of typing nonstop (which I do a lot, since I write novels). Linear switches feel too boring to me and don't provide enough feedback, and I'm not picky at all when it comes to gaming--I'm too engrossed in the game to notice or care.

I haven't received the Endurapro yet, but I'm pretty sure I'll like it's highly tactile feel, and since I plan on only using it to type in short bursts on my Galaxy Note 3, the heavier force required shouldn't bother me.

I've never tried Topre and I'll be ordering something very soon to remedy that.

Anyway, let me know what you think.

[dante]

If you want tactile snap then Alps and Buckling Springs are your friends.

[Melvang]

If you want tactile snap then Alps and Buckling Springs are your friends.

While I do not have any Alps boards I have tried CPTBadAss's Kingsaver with Blue (complicated i think) alps switches and they are LEAPS and BOUNDS above MX in terms of tactility and quality of the click.

[Lunatique]

If you want tactile snap then Alps and Buckling Springs are your friends.

While I do not have any Alps boards I have tried CPTBadAss's Kingsaver with Blue (complicated i think) alps switches and they are LEAPS and BOUNDS above MX in terms of tactility and quality of the click.

Is there a chart that matches up relative tactile/clickiness/weight of the ALPS with the Cherry MX switches, so if I were to buy an ALPS keyboard, I know which switch to choose that's similar (but better) to the Cherry MX's counterpart?

[jacobolus]

Is there a chart that matches up relative tactile/clickiness/weight of the ALPS with the Cherry MX switches, so if I were to buy an ALPS keyboard, I know which switch to choose that's similar (but better) to the Cherry MX's counterpart?

Sure, on the “how tactile is it” axis:
MX/Alps linear < MX brown = MX blue < MX clear < Alps tactile/clicky.

My subjective impression of switch stiffness:
MX red < MX brown/blue < green/yellow/orange/salmon/blue Alps < white/amber/cream Alps / quiet/clicky Matias < brown Alps = MX clear = MX black

Except that’s quite misleading, because tactile response and stiffness can’t really be summed up as simple metrics.

You might find this thread useful:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60288

[davkol]

Majority of tactile Alps' feel more or less like simplified, sharper clicky MX switches. What's more interesting, dampened variants exist.

[fohat.digs]

The real question is whether you should skip Cherry in favor of Alps.

[nubbinator]

The real question is whether you should skip Cherry in favor of Alps.

To which the answer is clearly yes.

[Hellmark]

The real question is whether you should skip Cherry in favor of Alps.

Too bad Alps key caps are uncommon for aftermarket. Wasn't there someone making stems for alps that was compatible with MX keycaps?

[CPTBadAss]

Are ALPS similar enough in terms of feel to Cherry MX to be considered in one main category separate from Topre, buckling spring, etc? Or are they different enough that they really should be considered totally different categories?

No. Alps and MX are different. Their construction and feel are unique from MX.

[ComradeSniper]

Alps are very different and definitely worth trying. Complicated whites & blues are probably the most tactile switches I've ever used, and complicated greens & yellows are much more smooth than Cherry linears.

[klikkyklik]

I concur. It would be a mistake to skip Alps.

[Lunatique]

Okay, you guys convinced me. I'm adding ALPS to my lineup of keyboards to buy/try/own.

Any objections to Matias Tactile Pro/Mini? It seems to be the only currently in production quality ALPS-clone switches, while all other ALPS switches are no longer in production and the keyboards still being sold with those switches have their days numbered?

[CPTBadAss]

I really like the Matias Tactile Mini and the Matias Clicky switches in general. That being said, just because a board isn't currently being made and is vintage, doesn't mean it's in bad shape. You can easily buy a good condition Alps board on eBay, clean it up, and have it ready to work for years to come. The good thing about mechanical keyboards is that they last and are easy to repair. No expiration dates like you're alluding to. New =/= Better.


What kind of novels do you write?

[RoflCopter4]

Alps is good if you're willing to deal with Alps, but dealing with Alps is very much easier said than done. The rabbit hole just keeps going down and down and down, and the deeper you go down the hole the more lost you get and the angrier you make your bank account.

Alps are definitely superior to Cherry MX in a sense, but the hassle is not to be understated. With Cherry switches you can know more or less exactly what is out there, what you might want, and rest confident in knowing what you're getting. The same is more or less true of buckling springs. They're not as popular as Cherry of course but they are much more popular than Alps and they are basically consistent across the board.

Alps keyboards will almost all be used, probably abused, quite possibly utterly filthy, and they can be all over the place in quality.

[Lunatique]

I think the reason Matias appeals to me is because it eschews all that risk and confusion, since it's a newly created ALPS switch with the intent to overcome the uncertainty/confusion of legacy ALPS switches, and there are only a couple of variations so you know exactly what you're getting, as well as have Matias to be there for you when/if you need customer service. Also, it seems like most ALPS fans rate the Matias clone to be as good (or very close to) the best of the legacy ALPS like the complicated blue and white.

I don't have any real issues with getting a Matias, other than the minor annoyance of really busy keycap legends (I never use those rare symbols/characters, so they just create visual clutter on the keycaps), and the whole Mac-centric alt/command/option thing, which can be remedied with remapping of the keys. I could try and switch out or modify the keycaps so they look more PC-friendly too.

[davkol]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

[Puddsy]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

++

I have my XM and that's enough for me. I wish it were better quality, I wish it were like 5% bigger, but I do like it a lot.

[Lunatique]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

I'm not a collector though--I just want really good keyboards to write my novels on, and I want to have one keyboard of each major switch type so I can compare them. I might not keep all of them once I've made up my mind which I prefer the most. Also, form-factor is important. I can't stand full-sized keyboards due to the number pad pushing the mouse away and causing ergonomic problems. I only will consider TKL or smaller these days. The only full-size I allowed myself to get is the Unicomp Endurapro, since they don't make TKL sizes, and the Model M SSK breaks my rule of being out-of-production and without warranty.

I might consider the other Matias models like the Quiet Pro, Secure Pro, or Laptop Pro. The first two has PC versions, but I'm not sure if I want the quiet version, since some say it is slightly less tactile, while some say it feels the same only quieter. I don't know who to beleive.

[Puddsy]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

I'm not a collector though--I just want really good keyboards to write my novels on, and I want to have one keyboard of each major switch type so I can compare them. I might not keep all of them once I've made up my mind which I prefer the most. Also, form-factor is important. I can't stand full-sized keyboards due to the number pad pushing the mouse away and causing ergonomic problems. I only will consider TKL or smaller these days. The only full-size I allowed myself to get is the Unicomp Endurapro, since they don't make TKL sizes, and the Model M SSK breaks my rule of being out-of-production and without warranty.

I might consider the other Matias models like the Quiet Pro, Secure Pro, or Laptop Pro. The first two has PC versions, but I'm not sure if I want the quiet version, since some say it is slightly less tactile, while some say it feels the same only quieter. I don't know who to beleive.

ALPS are miles more tactile than cherry. "Slightly less" tactile is like saying "this rock is more grey than that rock"

It's not a huge difference.

[Lunatique]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

I'm not a collector though--I just want really good keyboards to write my novels on, and I want to have one keyboard of each major switch type so I can compare them. I might not keep all of them once I've made up my mind which I prefer the most. Also, form-factor is important. I can't stand full-sized keyboards due to the number pad pushing the mouse away and causing ergonomic problems. I only will consider TKL or smaller these days. The only full-size I allowed myself to get is the Unicomp Endurapro, since they don't make TKL sizes, and the Model M SSK breaks my rule of being out-of-production and without warranty.

I might consider the other Matias models like the Quiet Pro, Secure Pro, or Laptop Pro. The first two has PC versions, but I'm not sure if I want the quiet version, since some say it is slightly less tactile, while some say it feels the same only quieter. I don't know who to beleive.

ALPS are miles more tactile than cherry. "Slightly less" tactile is like saying "this rock is more grey than that rock"

It's not a huge difference.

How would you rate the difference in the level of tactile feel between the Tactile Pro's switch and the Quiet Pro's dampened switch (in percentages)? 10% difference? And compared to the Cherry MX's tactile switches?

[jacobolus]

As a casual collecter, I'd just get some kind of Apple Extended or Alps Bigfoot in good shape. These are significant pieces of keyboard history, relatively easy to use with modern systems, quite solid and equipped with very good keycaps and dampened Alps switches.

Personally I find the dampened tactile Alps switches, like the ones on the AEK II or SGI keyboards, to be the least “Alpsy” of all Alps switches. The dampening makes it feel mushy, and I personally find it heavier than my preference. They’re roughly comparable IMO to Cherry MX clear.

However if you take the trouble to mix/match parts, you can get a really nice switch by replacing the spring and leaf in a cream Alps switch with a lighter spring and a more tactile leaf. Wouldn’t recommend that to the OP, but other folks might enjoy experimenting.

These are still great keyboards, but for a first-time Alps user, I’d go for either clicky (white, blue), or non-dampened tactile (orange/salmon) Alps switches, or Matias switches.

[jacobolus]

How would you rate the difference in the level of tactile feel between the Tactile Pro's switch and the Quiet Pro's dampened switch (in percentages)? 10% difference? And compared to the Cherry MX's tactile switches?

The feel is nearly identical until you get to the bottom out (which differs because one has squishy dampers at the bottom whereas the other is plastic hitting plastic), and substantially more tactile than any Cherry MX switch. The main difference is the sound (the clicky ones have a click from the leaf plus a “clack” from bottom-out, whereas the quiet ones are pretty quiet).

[davkol]

Matias Ergo Pro and run while you can.

[Altis]

To answer your original question, they definitely are different enough to be worth a shot.

The ones I currently have are black, which have a very smooth and elongated hump throughout the keystroke (but no click). These can be found pretty inexpensively in Dell AT101 keyboards.

I also have KPT Alps which are quite heavy and super crunchy. They are exhausting to type on and pretty inconsistent, although the keyboard is quite old so who knows how they were 30 years ago.

I'm still waiting for the Monterey blue Alps board to arrive (Chicony KB-5181). From what I understand, these are la creme de la creme. Not too heavy, smoother, and clicky. We shall see!

[fohat.digs]

These can be found pretty inexpensively in Dell AT101 keyboards.

I also have KPT Alps which are quite heavy and super crunchy.

There are millions of Dell AT101s and AT101Ws out there, and a lot of them are ugly and crunchy. A good one is good, but a bad one is bad.

The Apple Extended Keyboard uses the similar but superior orange or pink (aka salmon) switches but is harder to find a requires a converter.

KPT is a new one on me, I had never heard of it before!

And, by the way, blue "Monterey" switches are SMK, not Alps.

[Puddsy]

And, by the way, blue "Monterey" switches are SMK, not Alps.

which is why they're avoiding my flaming hate in this thread

i'm gonna revisit them this week to see exactly how justified it is, since  lot of people are questioning me

[RoflCopter4]

And, by the way, blue "Monterey" switches are SMK, not Alps.

which is why they're avoiding my flaming hate in this thread

i'm gonna revisit them this week to see exactly how justified it is, since  lot of people are questioning me

Yes, I would love to hear this justified. "Flaming hatred" seems awfully serious for a keyboard switch. Adolf Hitler, ISIS, and the Star Wars prequels are things for which I reserve true "flaming hatred". Not even the worst rubber dome keyswitches I've ever used get anywhere near that level.

[ComradeSniper]

And, by the way, blue "Monterey" switches are SMK, not Alps.

which is why they're avoiding my flaming hate in this thread

i'm gonna revisit them this week to see exactly how justified it is, since  lot of people are questioning me

Well if you tried them on a chicony board then the hate is definitely justified.

They felt worlds better on the MTek I used than on the chicony.

[jacobolus]

KPT is a new one on me, I had never heard of it before!

There are several switches from an unknown maker, labeled “KPT”, “TEC”, or entirely without branding. They have a click leaf very similar to Alps click leaves, but the contact mechanism is different. Since the switch housing is a different shape, and the pin locations are different, I wouldn’t suggest anyone call them “Alps” anything.

They should feel roughly like clicky Alps switches, though the precise details of the click leaf, spring, contacts, etc. can make a big difference in feel, so I’m not precisely sure what various ones are like. I haven’t ever seen one, but some folks have reported liking them. I’m guessing if Altis’s are “quite heavy and super crunchy” there’s a good chance the switches themselves are in bad condition (full of dirt).

[minh278]

I say you should try alps due to the actuation at the top gives them a different feel compared to say the mx blues. The trial should not be that expensive like $20 dollars or less on ebay for white alps. Mind you finding alps keysets are alot harder than mx. I only have experience with white alps and connot talk about the salmon, blues, blacks, etc..

[johndavis33]

Very different.

But still, I'd say that MX and ALPS switches are definately similar, at least when compared to topre and bucking springs. They both have this "piston-y" sort of feeling.

[Altis]

I’m guessing if Altis’s are “quite heavy and super crunchy” there’s a good chance the switches themselves are in bad condition (full of dirt).

They're all cleaned up! They don't feel gritty at all, just heavy with a very tactile click that ends up being more of a crunch. I'd say they're most similar to White Alps, but even crunchier. The build-up at the 'click' becomes very strong, then it snaps heavily when you break past it.

It is certainly by far the most tiring keyboard I have to type on and makes the rest feel super light and smooth after.

You can see the board itself with the KPT switches here.

[jacobolus]

They're all cleaned up! They don't feel gritty at all, just heavy with a very tactile click that ends up being more of a crunch. I'd say they're most similar to White Alps, but even crunchier. The build-up at the 'click' becomes very strong, then it snaps heavily when you break past it.

Ah, okay. I didn’t know what you meant by “crunchy”. I wonder what you’d think of amber Omron switches.

[jacobolus]

Just got a KPT-102 (branded as Magitronic D-K170-B), and I must say, I’m not a huge fan of the switches. As far as I can tell this thing is pretty close to brand new (no box, but there’s not much texture loss or yellowing on the ABS caps, and it’s very clean inside and out). The top two rows have a totally different switch feel from the rest of the keys (vaguely Alps-like feel, vs. the others which feel closer to amber Omrons) which is pretty disconcerting (just like this board http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/13939 and unlike Altis’s which seem to be all the same type as my bottom 4 rows). All the switches tend to wobble quite a bit and then bind when hit off-angle. They’re stiff to get past the click, and then the spring basically drops away and so they bottom out pretty hard.

The switches I have are somewhat scratchy, similar to modern MX switches (or a bit worse). I think it’s something inherent to the plastic material used and internal switch geometry, not dirt/dust inside (as sometimes happens to Alps switches). I suspect lube would help quite a bit though.

The bottom 4 rows’ switches are very clicky though, as I said, somewhat like amber Omrons.

I’m still not totally sure which effect Altis means by “crunchy”, but hopefully for other folks following along the above clarifies some of the switch feel.

[RoflCopter4]

I just want to point out that while the clickey Alps don't represent an absolutely massive difference from clickey MX, the non-clickey Alps very much do. Tactile orange or even nice, clean black Alps are so, so much more tactile than Cherry MX brown that it's almost unbelievable. I'd say that they're even more tactile than MX blue as well. If someone plugged your ears and told you to type you'd probably swear that these tactile keyboards were clickey. It's definitely worth picking up an Apple Extended Keyboard or something similar to give it a try. Plus the Apple keyboards have nice PBT caps.

I'm not so sure about dampened Alps though.

[noobicus]

I sometimes find myself typing absently on my Blue ALPS keyboard even when it isn't plugged in, just because I like the feedback of pressing the keys.

[mr.squishy]

Do yourself a favor and pick up an ALPS board, they certainly are different enough to warrant a separate category.

[Hypersphere]

Various Alps and Alps clones or Alps-inspired switches such as Matias Click and Matias Quiet switches are definitely different from Cherry mx.

Matias Click and Matias Quiet switches are new favorites of mine. They have a pronounced and meaningful tactile feedback that coincides with actuation, and the force required for continued displacement past actuation decreases. I like these better than any Cherry mx switch (including red, black, brown, clear, blue, and green).

[Lunatique]

I should update this thread and say that I did get a Matias Mini Quiet Pro and am quite happy with it. It's definitely a keeper, even if it's not a favorite among my other keyboards.

The tactility is very pronounced, has a more coarse feel in it's resistance bump than Cherry, with the collapsing of the resistance at the top of the press (which is preferable for some people), and it's about as quiet as a standard rubber dome keyboard. According to the VP of Matias, the tactility between the quiet and the clicky Matias switches are pretty much the same, with the only difference being the sound, so if you love tactile switches but don't like the noise, the Matias quiet switch is one of the best choices available right now.

I would rate it as more tactile than Cherry blue and Topre 55g, and slightly more quiet than non-silenced Topre, but not as quiet as Type-S RealForce Topre. The coarser tactile bump is part of what makes it feel more tactile, and it's a subjective thing--some will not like it, and some will prefer it to snappy tactile bumps. If I had to choose, I'd prefer snappy and crisp tactile bump (which is why I always liked Cherry blue), but I don't hate the coarse feel of the Matias either--I'm kind of neutral about it.

The Matias is different enough from Cherry MX that I would never sell mine, since my overall approach to keyboards right now is to keep at least one keyboard in each major switch category, and the Matias quiet switch fulfills the ALPS category for me. I'm a little annoyed by having to use Fn layer for the Home/End keys, since there's still space right there to fit those keys in but Matias chose to put them on Fn layer (using Page Up/Down), but it's not quite a deal-breaker.

[Hypersphere]

Regarding Matias "Alps-inspired" switches, although I like them both, I prefer the Matias Click switch over the Matias Quiet switch. I like the aural feedback, and the feel of the keystroke seems better overall in the Click switch. In addition, I prefer the sound and feel of the Matias Click switches in my KBP V60 over the Matias Mini Tactile Pro keyboard. This preference might have something to do with the different case materials and different keycaps. The caps on my KBP V60-MTS-C include Matias black blanks for the mods and spacebar, and dye-sub PBT from an IBM 5140 for the alphanumeric keys.

[derezzed]

I have a Cherry MX Brown board and I like Browns but after heavy use of my NMB board with black Hi-Tek switches,  the Browns are feeling light.  I also want a variety of boards,  including Alps and MX Clears.  Considering my current switches, if I were to buy only 1 board in the next year, can you guys make a recommendation regarding Matias Quiet Click or MX Clears (stock or modified)?  Are Matias Quiet Click and Cherry MX Clear similar enough as to not justify spending $400 (or more) for 2 keyboards? Has anyone posted a comparison between Alps and Hi-Tek switches?

[Lunatique]

I have a Cherry MX Brown board and I like Browns but after heavy use of my NMB board with black Hi-Tek switches,  the Browns are feeling light.  I also want a variety of boards,  including Alps and MX Clears.  Considering my current switches, if I were to buy only 1 board in the next year, can you guys make a recommendation regarding Matias Quiet Click or MX Clears (stock or modified)?  Are Matias Quiet Click and Cherry MX Clear similar enough as to not justify spending $400 (or more) for 2 keyboards? Has anyone posted a comparison between Alps and Hi-Tek switches?

I personally wouldn't bother with the clear Cherry MX if you get the Matias quiet switch, since the clear is still a Cherry MX with tactile bump/actuation near the middle, while the Matias has it at the top, which is a lot more different. Also, the Matias is much more tactile too, so you're getting something truly "different" from what you have, instead of still in the same switch family with similar mechanics.

[RoflCopter4]

Wow, PBT keycaps for an Alps board? That's pretty damn rare.

[CPTBadAss]

PBT caps are common in vintage Alps boards...

[RoflCopter4]

Really? Which? I've got four of them (five if you count SMK switches...) and the only one with PBT is my AEK, and its keycaps are not conducing to transplanting.

[CPTBadAss]

AEK, m0116, Wang boards including the 724, and AT101W are all models that come to mind off the top of my head. There are more which have PBT caps. Which boards do you have?

If you meant usable PBT caps for a normal ANSI layout, that'd be different and your statement would be more correct.

[Melvang]

AEK, m0116, Wang boards including the 724, AT101W are all models that come to mind off the top of my head. Which boards do you have?

AEK II is PBT as well but ABS space bar.  Those do feel pretty good considering the lack of thickness to them.  The one problem when transplanting caps from those boards is the F row keys are all rotated 90 degrees.

[jacobolus]

AEK II is PBT as well [...] Those do feel pretty good considering the lack of thickness to them.

What do you mean? They’re quite thick, same as any Alps-made dyesubs (except the ones on the silly IBM P70 luggable, which are quite thin).

[Melvang]

AEK II is PBT as well [...] Those do feel pretty good considering the lack of thickness to them.

What do you mean? They�re quite thick, same as any Alps-made dyesubs (except the ones on the silly IBM P70 luggable, which are quite thin).

You are correct, I just checked my set and they are very close to the same thickness as my set of Leopold pbt blanks.  Just a hair thinner.