Author Topic: Religion  (Read 70941 times)

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Offline itlnstln

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Religion
« on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 15:04:57 »
Talk amongst yourselves.  I'll give you a topic.  Religion.  Go.


Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #1 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 15:11:26 »
I'll start

btw playing a bit of devil's advocate here, that is...if I believe in the devil



You have four main people in the world (usually)

1) You believe in God, and he exists
2) You believe in God, and he doesn't exist
3) You don't believe in God, and he exists
4) You don't believe in God, and he doesn't exist

1) Awesome, you're amongst the higher ranks in the afterlife
2) No big deal
3) You're going to hell (well depending on your religion, you sure don't get to go where 1 is going)
4) No big deal

Everything seems to check out fine here except #2. Normally it would be no big deal, but based on numerously religions, people live their life based on "Well I don't want to go to Hell for that" or something similar to that. So in a way #2 does play an important role. I'm going with #4, just to be safe

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #2 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 15:49:47 »
Quote from: o2dazone;105899
3) You're going to hell (well depending on your religion, you sure don't get to go where 1 is going)


I disagree. If there is a God, he must be highly intelligent. He will respect intelligent people, who make sensible choices for rational reasons.

Therefore God will have more respect for atheists than for religious people.

Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #3 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 15:50:56 »
and I thought I opened a can of worms...

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #4 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 17:22:31 »
Quote from: Rajagra;105914
I disagree. If there is a God, he must be highly intelligent. He will respect intelligent people, who make sensible choices for rational reasons.

Therefore God will have more respect for atheists than for religious people.

On the other hand, how could the created being to understand the whims of the creator?

Justify it all you want, but if there is a God, which I definitely believe that there is, the world works by God's rules, not ours.

As it seems to me, there are two major conflicting natural tendencies for people : the search for purpose, and the desire to be accountable to no one.  

People tend to have trouble with one or the other. Nothing fully satisfies both, because the two are mutually exclusive.


(Now that you all think I'm crazy, carry on)
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #5 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 17:32:17 »
Quote from: webwit;105935
There is only one God and that is me, and I challenge any entity with divine aspirations to point the finger at me from the sky and destroy me with a bolt of lightning. In the meantime, you may worship me and sacrifice your keyboards in rituals involving naked chicks (yes, there are perks) dancing around bonfires in the rainy woods at night.

I'm sorry, but if God is real, why would I choose a human over a supernatural being with far more power than I can imagine?

If God is not real, surely my delusions have more hope than you could possibly bring, so how do I lose?
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #6 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 17:40:54 »
Quote from: itlnstln;105896
Talk amongst yourselves.  I'll give you a topic.  Religion.  Go.


lol, a little bored itln? ;D

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Offline FunkTrooper

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« Reply #7 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 17:44:23 »
Quote from: itlnstln;105896
Talk amongst yourselves.  I'll give you a topic.  Religion.  Go.


This has to be the most ingenious way to troll an entire forum that I have ever seen! Congratulations! :clap2:

Anyway, I'm really not fond of the idea of religion.  There's just so much to say that is wrong with it that I reallly wouldn't know where to begin, or how I could sum it up in a single forum post.  So, I don't think I'm going to try. Suffice to say, I'm something of a “hardcore” atheist, if there is such a thing.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #8 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 17:46:42 »
Quote from: webwit;105937
By the laws of nature that God created, it is not possible for God to exist. Because for God to be omnipresent, he would need control over ever particle, molecule and atom. For that, imagine you start your own universe by using a computer simulation. And you would mirror our own universe. In order to track all the tiniest elements, you would need need the combined energy of the entire universe to keep it running.

At that leaves no energy to run our cars and to post on geekhack. And we can't have that.

That's only under the assumption that there can be no supernatural.

The natural world can not easily explain everything...so there must be something supernatural.

The natural world can not explain how matter came to be.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #9 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 18:02:04 »
Quote
If God is not real, surely my delusions have more hope than you could possibly bring, so how do I lose?  

This is always the backup argument for religious people, and I think it sums up my issue with religion. Let's say we assume that God doesn't exist, and you are being delusional (I'm not outright insulting your religious beliefs, just saying it for the sake of argument) and you are getting happy off delusions... You are basically making yourself happy. Why don't you believe in yourself, and your own ability to get things done? Religious people claim to get all this strength from God - they are getting that strength from themselves in reality, but they're thanking someone else and putting themselves down as unworthy in the process. Cut out the middle man. Trust yourself to do get through hard times and do all that you can do.

Quote
As it seems to me, there are two major conflicting natural tendencies for people : the search for purpose, and the desire to be accountable to no one ... People tend to have trouble with one or the other. Nothing fully satisfies both, because the two are mutually exclusive.

I don't get where you are going with this one, you can find purpose in life without believing in God... Not all atheists are arrogant and believe themselves unstoppable.

Quote
The natural world can not easily explain everything...so there must be something supernatural.

The ancient Greeks were, for all their intelligence, a reasonably primitive people. They did not have the sort of astronomical knowledge that existed even 400 years ago. They didn't understand that the moon was a lump of rock orbiting around the earth, so they believed that it was the physical manifestation of a supernatural being, because that was the best they could come up. The thing is, in 2,000 years time, people will look back on us as we look back on the Greeks. Problems that we couldn't even fathom to be solvable will be solved, but other mindboggling problems will take their place.

What I'm saying is, your argument, and variations upon it, really boil down to "We don't know x therefore God exists". God effectively becomes a manifestation not only of human ignorance, but our arrogant inability to just accept that we can't solve certain problems and just leave them be.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #10 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 18:15:21 »
Quote from: ch_123;105946
What I'm saying is, your argument, and variations upon it, really boil down to "We don't know x therefore God exists". God effectively becomes a manifestation not only of human ignorance, but our arrogant inability to just accept that we can't solve certain problems and just leave them be.

Pride is known as a vice, so why are people so proud to assert that people are capable of everything?

Since we can't claim to know everything, why do you just say that I have to be wrong then? Is there not the possibility, for a God?

Or have we been so indoctrinated since the time of the "Enlightenment" that reason is the only possibility?

What hope for the future, for living life, does the atheist have? I can't begin to say, because I don't know.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 31 July 2009, 18:44:23 »
Quote from: timw4mail;105947
Pride is known as a vice, so why are people so proud to assert that people are capable of everything?

There's a thin line. Whilst I think that humility is one of the most important traits for a person to have, I also believe that religion inflicts unnecessary quantities of subservience and self-loathing into people's lives.

Quote
Since we can't claim to know everything, why do you just say that I have to be wrong then? Is there not the possibility, for a God?

Or have we been so indoctrinated since the time of the "Enlightenment" that reason is the only possibility?

You're putting the cart before the horse here. You're the one that's justifying the existence of God in terms of a gap in human knowledge. Of course, I can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt to you or indeed anyone that there is no God... but no more than I can prove the non-existence of Santa Claus. But given the facts presented to me, I have no reason to believe in either. Of course, if someone can convince me of God's existence I will believe, but till then...

Quote
What hope for the future, for living life, does the atheist have? I can't begin to say, because I don't know.

I hope to get a good job, fall in love, get married, have kids, and buy a large house where I can fit a DEC VAX into the basement... "Virtue! a fig! 'tis in ourselves that we are thus or thus."

Good old Shakespeare was on to something with that one.

On the flipside, what a horrible way to live, fearing angering your God and not getting into heaven. If the whole point of your life is to spending 70-120 years avoiding sin so you can enjoy the afterlife, what's the point of living?
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 July 2009, 18:48:42 by ch_123 »

Offline huha

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« Reply #12 on: Sat, 01 August 2009, 18:08:51 »
Quote from: itlnstln;105896
Talk amongst yourselves.  I'll give you a topic.  Religion.  Go.



Nice try, though. You surely need to get better at this.

You zany Americans! You're so unimaginative the only topic for trolling seems to be religion.
Why don't you just listen to these snobby, socialist Europeans and start talking about healthcare for once?

-huha
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Offline huha

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« Reply #13 on: Sat, 01 August 2009, 19:12:24 »
Quote from: timw4mail;105943
The natural world can not explain how matter came to be.

Please, do at least get your science right. We've got scientific theories on that one since the 1960s.
Remember: Scientific theories, not mere philosophical thoughts.

-huha
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Offline joniho

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« Reply #14 on: Sat, 01 August 2009, 19:34:17 »
As large as I am in comparison, I don't much care for (or hate) ants. If there was a god or gods, why would he/they care about humans?

My point: who cares.

Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #15 on: Sat, 01 August 2009, 19:48:16 »
Quote from: joniho;106124
As large as I am in comparison, I don't much care for (or hate) ants. If there was a god or gods, why would he/they care about humans?

My point: who cares.


Funny you mention that, my brother has a friend that is started the church of 'Apathetic Agnostics', their motto: "Don't know, don't care."

Offline joniho

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« Reply #16 on: Sat, 01 August 2009, 20:09:49 »

Offline bitflipper

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 01:58:55 »
yep
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 April 2011, 02:04:50 by bitflipper »

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 19:54:26 »
Quote from: huha;106116
Please, do at least get your science right. We've got scientific theories on that one since the 1960s.
Remember: Scientific theories, not mere philosophical thoughts.

-huha


What, the Big Bang? Where did that matter come from?

What even makes that scientific? Oh, uh...I guess all this matter came out of nowhere, clumped together and exploded into everything.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:26:41 »
Either that or it was zapped out of nowhere by the magic guy in the clouds. Bit of a lose-lose situation really.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:31:40 »


i refuse to get sucked into this... :D

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:34:52 »
I think you just failed...

Offline huha

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 20:58:49 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106279
What, the Big Bang? Where did that matter come from?

What even makes that scientific? Oh, uh...I guess all this matter came out of nowhere, clumped together and exploded into everything.


Okay, how should I start? Let's just spoil the fun right away and say you got your assumption/question wrong. Explaining how matter came to be is the job of science--quantum physics, in fact (we'll get into this later). And, as this is not something where to place a deity when you can't explain it as well as, in fact, science can explain your question, you're fundamentally flawed. The answer to why matter came to be is best left to philosophy, of which religion is a subset.

So, please, get your questions right. Don't invade science with religious thoughts, because that's what pisses people off big time.

And now, on to the science:
"The big bang" is a nice concept, but doesn't explain anything, as it's just one tiny point in time we actually don't know much (not to say anything) about. We do have interesting theories about the conditions after the big bang, though. We don't know what was before the big bang, and we probably never will, as all information about events preceding the big bang was lost--science doesn't even start at the big bang, it starts right after it (the reason for this is kind of hard to explain, but conditions "at" the big bang don't play any role, so this is why science starts after it--after meaning right after here; if you're a programmer, think of the big bang as a variable that's been declared but not yet initialized--you can't really do anything with it, as there's nothing going on; sounds all very strange--it is; but science has got logics and mathematics to sort these things out, so even if it sounds strange, it's not). After the big bang, various things happen transforming "particles" into other "particles" (sorry about being so vague here, but I'm not fully into the matter and the specifics don't really matter in this case anyway--if you're interested, read about it. But be prepared, it's 100% crazy stuff like most quantum physics). These transformations happend in various stages and at one point, there happened to be a slight asymmetry between baryons and anti-barions, leading to more matter than antimatter being formed. (N.b. Particles and anti-particles tend to cancel each other out) And there's your explanation how matter came to be.
As to how this asymmetry could happen, science still isn't entirely decided yet.


I hope you'll accept this attempt at an explanation. This wasn't written to satisfy people who like to pick on every argument, so you'll naturally find things not properly explained in there. Hell, you'll even find them in science. But god is just a religious, a philosophical concept. And as this, it doesn't have any place in science whatsoever. Science isn't atheistic, it's simply independent from religion.

Science constantly asks the question: "Can you prove it?" (or disprove it, for that matter). So let's just make a little hypothesis and assume the universe was indeed created by a deity. Can you prove that? Not at all. (Books don't count, sorry!). Can you disprove it? Not at all. So even if it was true, it's not scientific.

-huha
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Offline joniho

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:06:48 »
Quote from: wellington1869;106292
i refuse to get sucked into this... :D


Let's take a look at your avatar:

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #24 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:17:05 »
What I don't get is why science can not have a spirital basis. Unless Newton, Galileo, and contemporaries were idiots.

Just because everybody else says its true doesn't mean it is.

Science asks can you prove it, and you just said you can't prove the Big Bang? How's that Scientific?
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 22:15:12 »
Quote from: joniho;106295
Let's take a look at your avatar:
Show Image


:) I was arguing-by-avatar ;D

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Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #26 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 22:50:26 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106297
What I don't get is why science can not have a spirital basis. Unless Newton, Galileo, and contemporaries were idiots.

Just because everybody else says its true doesn't mean it is.

Science asks can you prove it, and you just said you can't prove the Big Bang? How's that Scientific?


Science can't have a spiritual basis because there's no way to form a testable hypothesis about spirituality.  Religion is about the supernatural.  And it means just that, above nature, beyond the scope of observable existence.  

Scientists can examine radiation from celestial bodies and see if redshift has occurred.  In science, you can look at this information and come to a reasonable conclusion about whether a distant galaxy is moving away from the observer.

If you inject spirituality and you decide you don't like the idea that the universe is expanding you can say that god steps in and adds the redshift just to mess with us.  There's no way to prove or disprove that.  The person that decided god added the redshift can invent any idea he or she wants to invalidate any test ever presented.  Thus it is non-scientific.

But saying redshift indicates the velocity of a galaxy in relation to an observer on earth can be disproved.  Scientists can keep testing the effects of relative velocity on electromagentic radiation.  They can keep forming hypotheses based on Hubble's law and they can keep testing them.  

Talking about the Big Bang is not exactly the best way to take a first look at science since the Big Bang is a huge topic that is based on many different theories.  But an important thing to consider is that its possible to form hypotheses that scientists have no way (yet) to test but are still theoretically disprovable.  

There are a lot of aspects of the Big Bang that don't have any way to be tested.  That's why no scientist is going to tell you its a definite fact that the Big Bang happened any particular way.

I will agree with what you said though.

Quote
Just because everybody else says its true doesn't mean it is.


Truth is not based on popular opinion.  That's why there is no truth in any religion.
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-Vint Cerf

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #27 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 22:52:11 »
oh all right, i'm bored and not sleepy yet and its a sunday night:

tim, you're a real true believer eh? I get the feeling you're in the minority here, but kudos for speaking your mind, which is never easy to do especially when one is obviously outnumbered.

first some disclosures: count me as an apathetic agnostic (o2dazone, i'd like to join your brother's friend's group! any web address?).  i'm indifferent about whether or not god exists, since I believe it cant be shown one way or another.  

now one response and some questions:

You say:
Quote

Science asks can you prove it, and you just said you can't prove the Big Bang? How's that Scientific?

two reponses off top of head: a) how is it religious? on what grounds are you inserting religion in there if you think its not scientific? why do you think it has to be one or the other? b) its scientific because science isnt just about proof (a common misunderstanding esp by religious folk); science is primarily about  theory - testable theory (the 'testable' is what makes it different from mere belief or pure faith). Testable doesnt mean proveable; it merely means you can set up an experiment (that follows the regular testable laws of math or the regular testable laws of the physical material universe) to test for it, testable by anyone, anywhere (it assumes no one has priveleged secret information, too, therefore; the results must be both demonstrable and repeatable).  All these things are what make up science and the experimental method and all these things constitute the domain of authority that science has held since the enlightenment.

Whats more, when confronted with something that isnt testable, where one only has a theory (derived from available but incomplete evidence), a big part of the scientific method is the discipline to suspend a conclusion if one does not have the ability to test or know. Thats a perfectly valid 'scientific' position to hold. Its the space of scientific theory.
So just because something is not conclusively proveable, that doesnt automatically mean that that is the space of faith.

Its the space of agnosticism, for instance.

So its valid to theorize and suspend judgement within the realm of science. What this does is it brings up other, to me more interesting, questions. The question of whether or not god 'exists' becomes moot, because its not testable, though one can make "a strong case" for non-existence. (Which is sort of what Hume said. He said we cant "know" that the sun will rise tomorrow. But we can be reasonably certain based on past performance, and thats a deduction we can make based on available evidence, its not an assumption pulled simply "out of the air").

So the question of god's 'existence' is moot, from a scientific point of view, and probably a strong case can be made for non-existence, in this humean sense. But for me, the more interesting questions really are not whether or not god exists, but things like "what kind of god" do you believe in? Or for atheists, what kind of humanism?  

That takes us into a space that most strong believers and most strong atheists dont like to go, for some reason.

The type of belief/unbelief is what is decisive and relevant, if you ask me.

Because if you believe in an avenging monotheistic jealous god, by golly, those folks have done as much brutal damage as any atheist communist.  

On the other hand, you have atheistic humanists who have done a lot of constructive and beneficial work by extending their sympathy and investment to other living beings and helped develop institutions and ideas of coexistence and ecology.  And you also have a lot of religious folk who have abandoned the jealous church/mosque and said 'live and let live'.

THey've done a lot of good work too, but they've abandoned evangelicalism havent they.  And you have buddhists and quakers and confucians and so forth outside the monotheistic tradition who have long histories of religious tolerance and coexistence. Gandhi was a hindu, drawing on hinduism's non-dualist philosophical traditions.  Decent folk turn up nearly everywhere, from nearly any tradition, religious or atheist or anywhere in between.

So I dont particularly care if god exists, nor do I care if the person i'm dealing with believes or doesnt believe. Its what you do on that basis, which matters. And a lot of that has to do with how you imagine your place in the world (vis-a-vis others). If you think you or your particular tradition (atheist or religious) has a total monopoly on the Good, then the rest of us are probably in trouble.
« Last Edit: Mon, 03 August 2009, 03:07:22 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Mr.6502

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« Reply #28 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 22:54:59 »
Quote from: joniho;106295
Let's take a look at your avatar:
Show Image


Now this is religion I can believe in.  

Heaven has a stripper factory and a beer volcano.  A better push for new members than stealing Christmas from the pagans ever was.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #29 on: Sun, 02 August 2009, 22:55:33 »
Quote
My son had to explain that avatar to me - he knew it right away.


a while back i took the 'fsm' out of that pic and then put it on a cafe press t-shirt, lol.  I still get stopped on the sidewalk by fellow believers when I wear it ;D

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Offline CX23882

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« Reply #30 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 03:28:51 »
If people find that it helps them to believe in something, fair dues to them if it makes their lives better, but I have a huge problem with those of the religious persuasion who try to force their views upon others. The thing that really pisses me off most is when political decisions are based around religion, or preachy people who look down on others for not believing the same as them.

Personally speaking, I don't have time for religion, and the concepts and beliefs only make sense when you have somebody standing in front of you telling you every week what you should think, act and believe. When you apply a bit of independent thought, it makes less and less sense. Religion seems to be unsuited to independent thought. If I wanted to be told have to lead my life, with fear of severe punishment for thinking outside of the box or questioning the almighty leader, I would move to Cuba or China. With this in mind, it is interesting how Communism (sorry, "Socialism" - viva fidel) tries to subdue religion.

PS: How do we explain the dinosaurs?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 06:10:08 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106297
Science asks can you prove it, and you just said you can't prove the Big Bang? How's that Scientific?

From what little I know about the Bing Bang, it's far from being a perfect theory. But the absence of a thoroughly sound theory that satisfies everything doesn't automatically mean that God or some supernatural entity is reponsible.

For one, when there's several competing theories, people tend to gravitate towards the one that makes the most sense and has the most satifying proof. Religion is always at a disadvantage because there's zero proof for God, you might as well be saying that purple pixies did it. Beside, I think people kind of cheapen religion when they spend ages trying to say that God was responsible, and then someone turns around and presents an irrufutable scientific case.
« Last Edit: Mon, 03 August 2009, 06:12:14 by ch_123 »

Offline huha

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« Reply #32 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 07:27:33 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106297
What I don't get is why science can not have a spirital basis.


Science and spiritualism are entirely different topics. It doesn't make sense to put spiritualism into science, because everything science can't do is the realm of philosophy, where there's plenty of place for spiritualism. Science tries hard not to delve into regions that aren't scientific. There's just no place for spiritualism in science without compromising on the effectiveness of science itself, just as there's no place for spiritualism in doing the dishes.

Quote
Unless Newton, Galileo, and contemporaries were idiots.


They were no idiots, they were just contemporary. Galileo was forced to revise his views by the church, for example. This didn't make science impossible, just so much harder.

Quote
Just because everybody else says its true doesn't mean it is.


The concept of "truth" is largely exaggerated anyway.
In terms of science, what you call "truth" (truth doesn't exist in science anyway, but for the sake of argument, let's just call it that) has been proven countless times so you can reasonably conclude it's correct based on our current observations. That's why science isn't perfect and always try to improve and correct past observations and conclusions. If I devise an experiment to disprove conservation of energy, I'd probably get lynched by the world's united physicists, but science would have to find different explanations for all kinds of stuff.--Doesn't mean they're wrong right now, but there's always room for improvement.
Another example that's not too far-fetched: Gravitation! Newton's law of gravity is clearly and horribly wrong, yet it's still taught in schools and used for important things like structural analysis and load calculations. So now that we have seen (and had enough experimental proof!) that Newton's law is wrong, do we have to throw away everything that's based on Newton's law and start anew? No. Newton's law might be wrong, but that's okay, since Newton's law is quite correct under certain (i.e. non-relativistic) conditions and much easier to use. We'll just need to adjust everything based on Newton's law to our new observations and we're done. Scientific theories are based on evidence (experiments, observations or logic/maths), so they'll at least have to "work."

Quote
Science asks can you prove it, and you just said you can't prove the Big Bang? How's that Scientific?


I didn't say you can't prove the big bang. Also, I think we're on different terminology here: I use "big bang" for the single event when it all began, you seem to include events happened thereafter. Science isn't really interested in the big bang itself, because there's not much to be learnt from it. What happened after it is much more interesting.
And we can procure experiments for evaluating out theories, which is what the people at CERN do for a living, for example.

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #33 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 07:31:14 »
FunkTrooper:
Quote
This has to be the most ingenious way to troll an entire forum that I have ever seen! Congratulations! :clap2:

huha (I can't see the pic here at work, so I might have missed the joke):
Quote
Nice try, though. You surely need to get better at this.

You guys WAY over-estimated my abilities.  It was an attempt to save the "Cut Fingers and Typing" thread from an epic, kick-in-the-nuts derail.
 
It looks like it succeeded.
 
Carry on.


Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #34 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 07:52:39 »
Okay, here's my real point:

I can believe that God created the world. The way the world works is the same. Therefore, the science is not different.

The problem with any origin theory is that it isn't provable, nor repeatable.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #35 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 08:02:33 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106366
The problem with any origin theory is that it isn't provable, nor repeatable.


Why not?

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #36 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 08:07:58 »
Quote from: ch_123;106368
Why not?


How is it?
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #37 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 08:19:30 »
A strange answer. Generally when you make a statement, the burden of proof lies on you, not the person who asks you to explain yourself.

Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 08:39:45 »
Quote from: wellington1869;106317
count me as an apathetic agnostic (o2dazone, i'd like to join your brother's friend's group! any web address?).


http://www.uctaa.net/

Because he's technically a minister of an organized religion, he was able to legally wed his sister and her husband lol

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #39 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 09:26:17 »
The church of those who don't know and don't care? Seems like a strange reason to organize a sect.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #40 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 09:27:57 »
Quote from: ch_123;106371
A strange answer. Generally when you make a statement, the burden of proof lies on you, not the person who asks you to explain yourself.

Well, really, how can you repeat that which has happened, and you can't for sure say how it happened? There certainly doesn't seem to be a way to recreate something that you haven't seen, and don't really know for a fact how it happened.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #41 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 09:55:02 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106366
Okay, here's my real point:

I can believe that God created the world. The way the world works is the same. Therefore, the science is not different.

The problem with any origin theory is that it isn't provable, nor repeatable.


so you're basically a deist?  thats fairly normal. as I understand it many of the founding fathers were deists.

One side effect here tho is that therefore you do believe in the separation of church and state? For deists the nation-state depends mainly on science and the authority of science for its authority to rule. (As opposed to, say, a theocracy).

This is why the founders were able to relegate faith to the 'personal' realm. (and protect it there, as a right, as in "the right to worship as you please").

So long as it didnt interfere with the scientific state and its science-based policies (science was both the extent and limit of the state's authority).

This was basically the 'truce' that the enlightenment made with the church. (In the anglo-american tradition anyway). The commies of course rejected the truce and went to war with the church (just as the evangelicals rejected the truce and went to war with the enlightenment).

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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #42 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 09:59:43 »
Quote from: wellington1869;106404
so you're basically a deist?  thats fairly normal. as I understand it many of the founding fathers were deists.

One side effect here tho is that therefore you do believe in the separation of church and state? For deists the nation-state depends mainly on science and the authority of science for its authority to rule. (As opposed to, say, a theocracy).

This is why the founders were able to relegate faith to the 'personal' realm. (and protect it there, as a right, as in "the right to worship as you please").

So long as it didnt interfere with the scientific state and its science-based policies (science was both the extent and limit of the state's authority).

This was basically the 'truce' that the enlightenment made with the church. (In the anglo-american tradition anyway). The commies of course rejected the truce and went to war with the church (just as the evangelicals rejected the truce and went to war with the enlightenment).

No, I am not a Deist. I'm a Baptist.  

Only in the last 400-600 years have people even considered leaving God out of the world. I believe that God has his place in science, because he created it.

Not everything about belief is supernatural.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #43 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:05:42 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106366


The problem with any origin theory is that it isn't provable, nor repeatable.


a) First off, it need not be "proveable" in order to be "reasonable" - for instance, its "reasonable" to assume the sun will rise tomorrow, this is an assumption that is not based on mere faith, but is based on past evidence and knowledge of physical laws - in other words, its based on science. Not faith. Its a theory but based on science.

Origin theories similarly can be postulated scientifically.

b) it may well be that one day the key astrophysical processes of the big bang will be recreated in the laboratory (or observed in the birth of new star systems). The physicists' work on that continues and will continue. The great thing about science is that its open to self correction (based on science and experiment and observation.)
That means constant progress towards accuracy.  (Unlike faith, which seeks to declare universal truths and hold to those forever despite change and despite new information).

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #44 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:06:32 »
Quote from: o2dazone;106377
http://www.uctaa.net/

Because he's technically a minister of an organized religion, he was able to legally wed his sister and her husband lol


omg thats absolutely hilarious :D

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #45 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:07:23 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106386
The church of those who don't know and don't care? Seems like a strange reason to organize a sect.


actually i think its a profoundly ethical group. They're refusing to lie, basically.

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #46 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:13:56 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106387
Well, really, how can you repeat that which has happened, and you can't for sure say how it happened? There certainly doesn't seem to be a way to recreate something that you haven't seen, and don't really know for a fact how it happened.


Isn't the whole cornerstone of science that you come up with a theory for how something works, and try and recreate things in order to prove the theory? I'm not saying that we need to create a new universe to find out, but things can be mimicked on a much smaller scale. For example - we can't create another sun, but we can mimick it's operation in some experimental fusion reactors.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #47 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:15:36 »
Quote from: wellington1869;106410
actually i think its a profoundly ethical group. They're refusing to lie, basically.

Just an honest question:

Can you really NOT care?


While there is the high availability of funds to buy diversions, the question is squeezed out of thought...but when one is alone, or unable to purchase new diversions, the thought comes to mind, doesn't it?

I'm just curious as to whether one can factually not care.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #48 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:17:16 »
Quote from: timw4mail;106405


 I believe that God has his place in science, because he created it.

but the position you're describing here (god made the world but the world operates on its science-based rules) is basically the deistic position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I'm not sure mainline evangelical baptists agree with you on that, by the way. Not that that matters.

Quote

Not everything about belief is supernatural.


can you elaborate? if you mean that believers look at their lives and see god's hand working in it, thats fine and is a right protected by the constitution. (for instance I could believe that god is a plate of spagetti with meatballs, and shapes my life in mysterious ways, and that would be a constitutionally protected right).  

However, if I demand that the government make public policy based on that,  I would need to provide harder (read: more scientific) evidence of public utility. The more public the implications of my personal belief, the harder the evidence that I will need to provide.

Its that demand for public evidence that keeps us from becoming a theocracy. It also keeps us from becoming a "psuedo-scientific" communist regime.

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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #49 on: Mon, 03 August 2009, 10:18:04 »
Quote from: ch_123;106412
Isn't the whole cornerstone of science that you come up with a theory for how something works, and try and recreate things in order to prove the theory? I'm not saying that we need to create a new universe to find out, but things can be mimicked on a much smaller scale. For example - we can't create another sun, but we can mimick it's operation in some experimental fusion reactors.

Which is precisely my point. Can you rigorously re-create enough to know that your theory is true? The universe is an infinitely complex system of interconnected layers of other systems. How, realistically, can one re-create even a fraction of that?
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