Are Topre boards really mechanical keyboards?

[awts]

I think I've come across this online... but I only own Topre cause I love them. Can I safely let people know they're mechanical? 

[FrostyToast]

I guess you could tell people it's mechanical...
Although the term that is thrown around by media would be "hybrid".
We, however, like to just go with "cup rubber".

[Defect]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

[hwood34]

hybrid

[Puddsy]

technically no

logistically yes

[sethk_]

Cup rubber with spring is better than just spring.

[demik]

it's above a mechanical keyboard.

keyboard of the gods.

keyboard of freedom.

[sethk_]

it's above a mechanical keyboard.

keyboard of the gods.

keyboard of freedom.

AND THE KEYBOARDS...OF...THE BRAAAAAVEEE

[Sygaldry]

Topre are nice though, and certainly better than everything else.

Fixed this for you

[Macsmasher]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

[crazystu]

Whatever Topre keyboards are, they are certainly not dome-membrane keyboards, which is what really matters.

[Oobly]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

So IBM Model F and Model M boards are not mechanical? Definitions can be tricky. I believe the conclusion I came to the last time this discussion came up was that if it contains a helical or conical metal spring in the actual individual switch mechanism, it is mechanical.

So I say Topre is "hybrid" mechanical since it has a conical metal spring in there, even though it doesn't contribute that much to the feel of the switch. It's a rubber dome board (since it has rubber domes), but not "just" a rubber dome board (since it also has springs).

[SpAmRaY]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

Not sure this makes much sense to me, the rubber dome has a spring underneath, I don't see how you can call springs switches.

[atlas3686]

it's above a mechanical keyboard.

keyboard of the gods.

keyboard of freedom.

this^

[Hyde]

I'd call it hybrid as well lol.

[RoflCopter4]

Does it matter? It's not well defined what "mechanical" even means in this context. Topre keyboards are nice, high quality keyboards. Labels make little difference.

[awts]

Does it matter? It's not well defined what "mechanical" even means in this context. Topre keyboards are nice, high quality keyboards. Labels make little difference.

It's not really that important, but rather this topic kind of intrigues me. I've got asked a couple of times what my keyboards were and I explained they were "Non-contact capacitive switch". Then I couldn't explain beyond that... so I thought maybe I should really find out! 

[eth0s]

Topre switches are mechanical switches.  Mechanical means:  working or produced by machines or machinery.  As such, Topre is mechanical.  Topre is not a hybrid of anything.  This is a confusion that seems to be generated by those who cannot understand the electrostatic capacitive switching mechanism.

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  Topre switches are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes, and to Cherry MX.  Rubber domes and Cherry MX both use physical contact to make an electrical contact in the switch.  Topre uses a completely different technology.  Topre uses an electrostatic capacitive switch.

An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Both rubber dome switches and Cherry MX switches physically complete an electric circuit when you press the key.  Topre capacitive switches do not.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.  Ask Ducky users.  Or ask anybody that has built their own MX keyboard.

[Sygaldry]

Topre switches are mechanical switches.  Mechanical means:  working or produced by machines or machinery.  As such, Topre is mechanical.  Topre is not a hybrid of anything.  This is a confusion that seems to be generated by those who cannot understand the electrostatic capacitive switching mechanism.

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  Topre switches are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes, and to Cherry MX.  Rubber domes and Cherry MX both use physical contact to make an electrical contact in the switch.  Topre uses a completely different technology.  Topre uses an electrostatic capacitive switch.

An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Both rubber dome switches and Cherry MX switches physically complete an electric circuit when you press the key.  Topre capacitive switches do not.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.  Ask Ducky users.  Or ask anybody that has built their own MX keyboard.

I think you're taking the term "mechanical" way too literally. The dictionary definition of "mechanical" does not completely work in the enthusiast keyboard context.

But okay.

[Parak]

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.

Mmmh.. I don't think that's quite accurate. Capacitive sensing does last longer than contact based due to various issues like corrosion and such, but there's more to it than just the sensing method - there's the mechanism of the switch itself to consider as well. For example, since a Topre switch uses elastomers, I highly suspect that it cannot flex as many times as a stainless steel spring while still keeping its original shape and strength. Equivalently, if one takes beam spring switches that are capacitive, one finds that they are not very reliable if used as is, due to spontaneously dying due to slight debris ingress. Hence the rubber sheets that protected them. Also one can take honeywall hall effect switches that are supposedly rated for 30 billion actuations or something silly.

Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact. 

Actually, capacitive switches still need a type of debouncing handling.

[eth0s]

srsly? 

The dictionary definition of a word is the definition.  That is what the word means.  Words do not mean what you think they mean.  That is not how language works.  If you want to use a word that means something different, that's okay, use another word.  If there is no word for you, then make one up.  That is okay too.  Shakespeare did it.  You can too.  You can make up a word like "mekkanikel"  or "mechannerkal" or "mechanikewl" or whatever you want.  But if you use words from the lexicon of the English language, then you have to adhere to the generally accepted definition, which is what you find in the dictionary, those are the rules of being a human being. 

If you think the "enthusiast keyboard context" grants you license to change the meaning of a word, then you are wrong.  I suggest using the word "mechanikewl" from now on to describe your keyboard.  It can have any meaning you want. 

[Daniel Beardsmore]

eth0s: My concern with your explanation is knowing whether you're simplifying the explanation or whether you are in error. There is no "plate" under the Topre domes; the domes compress a small conical spring. Moreover, there are not one but two pads on the PCB for each switch, as there are on any capacitive PCB I've seen. I have yet to see anyone actually explain capacitive sensing, be it for keyboards, touch screens, or trackpads; it would seem reasonable to me to assume that standard trackpads were multi-touch aware from the beginning, but with a simple PS/2 mouse interface (later USB I assume) they were unable to let the multi-touch data leave the device.

It goes on my long list of stuff for which no explanation seems to exist. I do hope one day that the wiki gains proper illustrated explanations of the different electromagnetic actuation technologies, including capacitive, Hall effect (which is at least documented elsewhere) and magnetic valve. (There might be more out there; I can't think of any others right now.)

The idea that a rubber dome keyboard is required to be ohmic is not a definition I recall seeing elsewhere. To me, a rubber dome keyboard is one with rubber domes inside. I assume your definition is "needs domes to operate" vs "domes just give it tactility". This leads to an interesting question: I assume that a sheet of moulded rubber is significantly cheaper than metal springs, hence the proliferation of rubber dome keyboards being for cost, rather than because they give integrated tactility in preference to the linear feel of helical spring over membrane. (Helical spring over membrane never really caught on, although I've got one, and the progressive rate feeling is really interesting; it just ghosts like crazy when the keys aren't jamming — badly made from new, so far as I can tell.)

For me, Topre is "rubber dome" because it's got rubber domes in it. Topre definitely feels rubbery; there is no two ways about this. I abandoned Topre and returned to Cherry as I was never really quite at home with the rubber feel, as good as it is. Topre keyboards are of course extremely high grade — exceptionally smooth, and the sound and feel of my Realforce was so far above my Quiet Pro. Topre has a sweet tinkling sound instead of a nasty dry rattle.


Is Topre mechanical? I consider the question meaningless because "mechanical" has never been clearly defined.

[eth0s]

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.

Mmmh.. I don't think that's quite accurate. Capacitive sensing does last longer than contact based due to various issues like corrosion and such, but there's more to it than just the sensing method - there's the mechanism of the switch itself to consider as well. For example, since a Topre switch uses elastomers, I highly suspect that it cannot flex as many times as a stainless steel spring while still keeping its original shape and strength. Equivalently, if one takes beam spring switches that are capacitive, one finds that they are not very reliable if used as is, due to spontaneously dying due to slight debris ingress. Hence the rubber sheets that protected them. Also one can take honeywall hall effect switches that are supposedly rated for 30 billion actuations or something silly.

Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact. 

Actually, capacitive switches still need a type of debouncing handling.

hmm.  Well, nobody talks about Hall effect switches, because they are not mass produced.  I guess I could mention them, or maybe we could talk about typing in space, in a vacuum, or close to absolute zero, where friction and gravity would not apply.  We can also talk about unicorns and mole men.  But I'm talking about the real world, and about the three main choices for keyboards that are available commercially in abundance:  rubber domes, Cherry MX and Topre.  Of those 3, Topre is a superior technology, that will outlast the other 2.  Is that okay?

As for your assertion that capacitive switches still need a type of debouncing handling.  This is wrong.  Capacitive switches eliminate contact bounce, as I said above, because there is no physical banging contact.  Why do people not understand this?   However, there is something called "ground bounce" which is caused by an analog change in voltaic charge in a digital circuit.  If this is what you are talking about, then yes, there may be some ground bounce even in a capacitive switch.  But you would be confusing two different types of signal bounce.  The first is mechanical bounce, which is horrible, and can lead to "jjjj" when typing the letter "j".  The other kind of bounce is different, and is not a problem in a keyboard.  Ever.  However, it could be a problem in some other hyper-sensitive digital system.  But good for you for inadvertently pointing this out, even though I doubt that you understand the difference.

[Macsmasher]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

Not sure this makes much sense to me, the rubber dome has a spring underneath, I don't see how you can call springs switches.

The only statement that was incorrect was "Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key". Topre boards do have individual switches.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

hmm.  Well, nobody talks about Hall effect switches, because they are not mass produced.

I'm envisioning lots of little German gnomes hand-carving RAFI RS 76 C switches out of solid blocks of plastic. I suppose with Micro Switch it was Mexican gnomes, and a lot more of them.

[eth0s]

@ Daniel Beardsmore:  How can I explain something for which you say "no explanation exists"?  You have decided that you do not like Topre, therefore you cannot accept any explanation of Topre which leads to the conclusion that Topre is superior to Cherry MX.  You have what is called in psychology an anti-Topre bias schema, through which my explanation cannot penetrate.  You have to let go of ego.  See what is there to be seen through the ordinary use of your senses.  Do not apply your bias to the facts, is all I can offer.

With that said, I will try to explain this again.  First, yes, my explanation was dumbed way, way down.  Some GH members are still in high school.  Others members never had any schooling, or didn't pay attention to the schooling they did have.   So I tried to keep my explanation at about a 5th grade level.  Some technical nibs got shaved off, in the interest of that general explanation.  I guess I should think about how to explain Topre switches in a clear and easy-to-understand manner.  If I can come up with better explanation, and if I have time to type it up, I will do it later.  You guys have made me too tired.  Sad face.

[SpAmRaY]

[eth0s]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

Not sure this makes much sense to me, the rubber dome has a spring underneath, I don't see how you can call springs switches.

The only statement that was incorrect was "Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key". Topre boards do have individual switches.

Yes.  I meant to say "Topre boards do not have individual [contact] switches for each key, [as exist in a Cherry MX keyboard]."  Topre does have switching mechanisms that correspond to each individual key.  The point I was trying to emphasize was the lack of physical contact under each keycap.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

eth0s:

I don't mean that Topre cannot be explained, rather that a lot of technologies (everything from computer keyboards to rail transport) are not widely documented in accessible ways. There are often glimmers of knowledge, but unless you're in the trade, many if not all details are simply not made publicly accessible (although if you read Patentese you'll have more knowledge open to you). I have a very rudimentary understanding of capacitance, but not how you sense with it, nor why you need two pads on the PCB, and their relationship to each other and to the moving "plate" (the spring).

It's a bit like registration arms for OHLE — I know what they do (hold the contact wire and keep it under horizontal tension) but the amount of designs and variations is staggering (pun intended ;-) and the rationale for these designs is not, to my knowledge, documented anywhere within easy public access. That's why I am hoping that electromagnetic sensing gets documented in the wiki, where people can have easy access to clear explanations for how these types of switches all work.

I challenge you therefore to write and illustrate (even if just napkin sketches) an explanation for capacitive keyboard sensing, although I'll leave the likes of HaaTa to review it factually. I'll be generous and not require you to put it on the wiki!

Also, I'm not anti-Topre. It doesn't suit me personally, but I've never attributed that to a failing on anyone's part; it's nothing more than my own personal preference, and I have little objection to using Topre. I just prefer Cherry over Topre.

[Sygaldry]

srsly? 

The dictionary definition of a word is the definition.  That is what the word means.  Words do not mean what you think they mean.  That is not how language works.  If you want to use a word that means something different, that's okay, use another word.  If there is no word for you, then make one up.  That is okay too.  Shakespeare did it.  You can too.  You can make up a word like "mekkanikel"  or "mechannerkal" or "mechanikewl" or whatever you want.  But if you use words from the lexicon of the English language, then you have to adhere to the generally accepted definition, which is what you find in the dictionary, those are the rules of being a human being. 

If you think the "enthusiast keyboard context" grants you license to change the meaning of a word, then you are wrong.  I suggest using the word "mechanikewl" from now on to describe your keyboard.  It can have any meaning you want.

snow - noun \ˈsnō\ soft, white pieces of frozen water that fall to the ground from the sky in cold weather

Whoa, I never knew snow cones came from the sky!

I learn something new every day.

[Macsmasher]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

Not sure this makes much sense to me, the rubber dome has a spring underneath, I don't see how you can call springs switches.

The only statement that was incorrect was "Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key". Topre boards do have individual switches.

Yes.  I meant to say "Topre boards do not have individual [contact] switches for each key, [as exist in a Cherry MX keyboard]."  Topre does have switching mechanisms that correspond to each individual key.  The point I was trying to emphasize was the lack of physical contact under each keycap.

Exactly. But referencing your initial response to mine, you stated, "I don't see how you can call springs switches". Are you defining the rubber dome and springs as the switch? If so, that would be like defining a Costar or Cherry stabilizer as the switch. While the stabilizers, or in Topre's case the rubber dome and spring, assist the switch in its operation, they are independent of the switch itself.

Back to whether Topre is a mechanical keyboard in the classic sense, I really have no idea. I guess if it's that important to people, we would have to find some formal guidelines from some keyboard industry endorsed consortium with clear guidelines for classifying a board 'mechanical'. If somebody wants to round that up, I'd read it out of curiosity and my interest in keyboards.

But it's not an important issue for me. I don't care if we classify Topre keyboards as a mouse. For me, Topre switches are the best I have ever had the pleasure of using. And that's coming from a guy who started out on an IBM 8088 with dual 5.25" floppies in the early 80s. (Actually, I had a TI80 with a cassette player for storage prior to that, but that really doesn't count.) 

[Huxley2500]

In my book it gotta Click!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The dictionary definition of a word is the definition.  That is what the word means.

I gather that the most famed endeavours of Messrs Engelbart and English comprised affixing transducers to rodents such that, so long as they didn't struggle too much as you pushed and slid them around the desk, the computer would be able to record their motion. Of course, upon removing your hand, the critter would gnaw through the cable that you'd wired into it and run away, leaving nothing but droppings and some spare urine.

[epzy]

In my book it gotta Click!

best book NA kek

[jacobolus]

Can I safely let people know [Topre keyboards are] mechanical?

Sure, go for it. “Mechanical” doesn’t have a particularly precise definition in the “keyboard enthusiast community”. The way words work is that some person or group of people cluster a bunch of things together that they think are related, and then attach a label to them. In general, the relevant clusters here are:

1) switches with just a keycap, a buckling rubber dome or sleeve and/or a helical spring that only goes up and down, possibly an additional slider, and membrane contact sheets (this is most keyboards sold since the mid 1990s, because it’s cheaper)

2) all the other keyboard mechanisms

Various keyboards are difficult to fit into this neat classification, e.g. the Model M which is just a spring attached to a little plastic piece over a membrane, but the spring doesn’t just go up and down, instead it bends outwards and at some point “buckles”, Topre switches which use a rubber dome as part of the mechanism, Acer switches which are a spring + slider over membrane design but also have a metal leaf spring for tactile/audio feedback, etc.

Group #2 gets called “mechanical”, but some other name might be better.

Sometimes someone lumps Topre switches in with group #1, usually when trying to start a flamewar about whether Topre is teh best or teh suxxors.

hmm.  Well, nobody talks about Hall effect switches, because they are not mass produced.  I guess I could mention them, or maybe we could talk about typing in space, in a vacuum, or close to absolute zero, where friction and gravity would not apply.  We can also talk about unicorns and mole men.  But I'm talking about the real world, and about the three main choices for keyboards that are available commercially in abundance:  rubber domes, Cherry MX and Topre.  Of those 3, Topre is a superior technology, that will outlast the other 2.  Is that okay?

Actually the mole men are going to outlast us all.

Hall effect switches were absolutely “mass produced”. They aren’t still being made anymore though. In the “real world” there are at least a dozen choices for keyboard switches, with several dozen other “mass produced” switches a couple decades ago. If you want to talk about “available in abundance” then I’m really not sure Topre even makes the cut. Topre keyboards are a tiny niche product. I wouldn’t be surprised if Unicomp sells more keyboards in the US every year than all the Topre boards sold (but I don’t know any concrete sales figures, so who knows.)

But anyway, you need to clarify what you mean by “outlast”. Topre switches won’t last as long in years as MX switches will. If you put a Topre keyboard and an MX keyboard on the shelf and come back in 30 years, the MX keyboard will be effectively unchanged, while the rubber sheet in the Topre keyboard will be fairly unpleasant. If you’re talking wearing out from continuous heavy usage, I’m not sure. Anyone know of any data on this subject? My suspicion is that at least the linear MX switches will last quite a bit longer without significant change in feel or function, assuming both keyboards are being properly cared for. A Topre keyboard definitely won’t last as long as a Model M, with either use or time, given similar storage conditions and use pattern.

As for your assertion that capacitive switches still need a type of debouncing handling.  This is wrong.  Capacitive switches eliminate contact bounce, as I said above, because there is no physical banging contact.  Why do people not understand this? [...] good for you for inadvertently pointing this out, even though I doubt that you understand the difference.

You may want to hook an oscilloscope up to your Topre board and verify this for yourself. Note that Parak is an electrical engineer who has some direct experience with capacitive keyboard sensing.

[RoflCopter4]

srsly? 

The dictionary definition of a word is the definition.  That is what the word means.  Words do not mean what you think they mean.  That is not how language works. If you want to use a word that means something different, that's okay, use another word.  If there is no word for you, then make one up.  That is okay too.  Shakespeare did it.  You can too.  You can make up a word like "mekkanikel"  or "mechannerkal" or "mechanikewl" or whatever you want.  But if you use words from the lexicon of the English language, then you have to adhere to the generally accepted definition, which is what you find in the dictionary, those are the rules of being a human being. 

If you think the "enthusiast keyboard context" grants you license to change the meaning of a word, then you are wrong.  I suggest using the word "mechanikewl" from now on to describe your keyboard.  It can have any meaning you want.

This is just not true. I don't care if you don't ever endeaver to learn anything at all about how language works, that's fine, but if you're going to choose to remain ignorant then don't say ignorant things. A student with five minutes of the first class of a Linguistics 101 course under their belt would be justified in looking down their nose at a statement this trivially wrong.

[Oobly]

Wow, this degenerated rapidly... Which is to be expected from such a provocative thread title

What we as keyboard enthusiasts call "mechanical" keyboards is independent of the dictionary definition of "mechanical", it's merely a partially descriptive term that has been co-opted due to there not being a more accurately descriptive term. In many cases it is used to mean "not a mass-produced rubber dome board made for the average joe PC user who doesn't care". In fact, I suspect the definition is subtly different for every keyboard enthusiast.

When we last had a discussion thread on this topic I came up with a definition that seemed to fit most of what we as enthusiasts call "mechanical" keyboards and that is if it has a helical or conical metal spring as part of the mechanism. AFAIK, all the boards we call "mechanical" have that and very few of those we exclude do. Any other definition I have heard will either exclude a board we consider "mechanical" or include a board we don't.

The reason people call Topre a "hybrid" is that they have both a spring and a rubber dome and the rubber dome has more effect on the feel than the spring does.

Secondly, Topre switches don't have a metal plate in the rubber dome or slider, it's the spring itself that acts as the 2nd conductor for changing the capacitance of the switch mechanism.

Thirdly, capacitive switches don't have physical contact "bounce", but they do need some system for making certain that the state of the switch has changed, in some cases it's simply a matter of having the "on" state a little lower than the "off" state, creating a very small hysteresis zone. This doesn't need to take more time to sense, though, unlike physical debounce and I don't think there is any other type of "bounce" that capacitive switches experience, especially those that rely on a dome collapse mechanism that has the state switch position a fair distance above the bottom out point like Topre.

So let's all lighten up a little and keep it civil, or at least close to on topic.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What you've got to ask yourselves is, what is the purpose of such a classification. Would Topre be well served by a comparison to a fragile Ducky 1000-series keyboard or a jammy, ghosting OK-100M? All of them have helical or conical springs, but if you advised someone to get a mechanical keyboard, there are a lot of candidates to be avoided like the plague.

Is the intent to classify keyboards by functionality (regardless of how badly made they are) or by quality?

[rowdy]

Probably a simplistic view, but I see it as:

Membrane - two sheets of plastic that actuate when pressed together
Topre - individual rubber some and spring under each key that causes capacitive circuit
MX/Alps - individual mechanical switch with metal contacts under each key

To me a "mechanical" keyboard is one that has a separate switching mechanism under each key - Topre fulfils that.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Membrane is either one sheet (conductive dome/arc etc) or three sheets (non-conductive moving parts); for the latter, see my diagram here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rubber_dome_over_membrane

The only switches I class as "individual" are "microswitch" designs (Cherry MX, Alps SK* etc) that can be desoldered or bought loose, and tested using an ohmmeter as-is.

There is no such thing as a "Topre switch". You'd have to saw up a piece of the PCB, cut up one of the dome sheets, and tape the two together with the spring inside. They're not discrete components physically; the section of the PCB assigned to each key is a fundamental part of the "switch". You should be able to make discrete Topre "switches" in a form factor similar to Alps integrated dome (Alps SKE-something); whether this would affect the capacitive sensing, I don't know.

Membrane keyboards should be the same: slice the three membrane sheets and tape them back together.

I don't class the Topre design as any more individual than the Model M or any rubber dome over membrane: you can't isolate a switch and remove it from any of these designs. All three designs share the same fundamental restriction that you can't wire up the switches into custom designs. With Topre you could of course make a dedicated PCB, but lots of custom keyboards are wholly PCB-less.

[rowdy]

That's fair enough.  As I said, my view is somewhat simplistic.

Otherwise I'd have to justify paying $200 for a non-mechanical keyboard (HHKB) )

[hasu]

"mechanical" is useful or no problem at least in casual conversersaion even if people use their own different definitions/feelings. But in (technical) discussion the term is useless or even worse.

I tend to avoid using the word but it reminds me Cherry and Alps when people say "mechanical". Topre and rubber domes are ones come last.

[Macsmasher]

I would argue "no," since Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key, but rather use dome sheets (sometimes individual domes) over metal springs for their capacitive pcb.

The fact that they come in sheets makes it a no for me.  Topre are nice though, and certainly better than dome over membrane.

This is incorrect. While I would agree they're not technically a mech board, and that they have the rubber domes connected on a single sheet, they do in fact have individual key switches under the domes. The rubber domes provide most of the resistance and tactility, but sit above the individual switches in the case (for HHKB) or on the plate (RF).

Not sure this makes much sense to me, the rubber dome has a spring underneath, I don't see how you can call springs switches.

The only statement that was incorrect was "Topre boards do not have individual switches for each key". Topre boards do have individual switches.

Yes.  I meant to say "Topre boards do not have individual [contact] switches for each key, [as exist in a Cherry MX keyboard]."  Topre does have switching mechanisms that correspond to each individual key.  The point I was trying to emphasize was the lack of physical contact under each keycap.

Actually, after considering the above cross section of a Topre switch, I would have to concede you are correct. Aside from the circuit board that registers the actuation, there really isn't anything more to the switch than the rubber dome, spring and switch slider assembly.

[intelli78]

technically no

logistically yes

it's above a mechanical keyboard.

keyboard of the gods.

keyboard of freedom.

These sum it up...

[ullr]

Otherwise I'd have to justify paying $200 for a non-mechanical keyboard (HHKB) )

I have a feeling that this is often the underlying reasoning behind Topre's classification, no matter what argument a Topre fan might give. Because mechanical seems to imply expense, people erroneously draw the conclusion that expense implies mechanical.

The spring definition is an interesting one, and brings up other questions. Is this, http://deskthority.net/wiki/MEI_switch, then, not a mechanical switch? Are these http://deskthority.net/wiki/Fujitsu_Peerless? Does replacing the spring in Cherry MX switches with magnets, as I've seen people do, make it non-mechanical?

At this point, I don't think it's possible to objectively quantify "mechanical". The colloquial definition is muddied by the popularity of Topre, which leaves only the spring and capacitance as qualifiers for "mechanical", and capacitance removes far more objectively "mechanical" switches from the definition.

To me, mechanical means parts moving more than just up and down. I usually associate it with individual switches and the ability to naturally extend the mechanism into a locking switch, the ability of which Buckling Spring "switches" notably lack, but I consider them a far more logical exception to any rule concerning mechanical keyboards than Topre.

I definitely wouldn't consider capacitance what makes a switch better than another, either, considering Foam and Foil switches.

[Polymer]

I'm not sure why it even matters...

People will argue back and forth about it..but it doesn't change the switch at all.  It isn't going to change it in the future either...

If we somehow came to a consensus that it is NOT mechanical, does that somehow mean it is now worse than MX switches?  Or does that mean that somehow MX switches are now worse than non mechanical switches?  Not at all..

[jacobolus]

Some responses that seem reasonable:

FrostyToast: I guess you could tell people it's mechanical...

Oobly: So I say Topre is "hybrid" mechanical

hwood34: hybrid

Hyde: I'd call it hybrid as well lol.

RoflCopter4: Does it matter? It's not well defined what "mechanical" even means in this context. [...] Labels make little difference.

Daniel Beardsmore: Is Topre mechanical? I consider the question meaningless because "mechanical" has never been clearly defined.

jacobolus: “Mechanical” doesn’t have a particularly precise definition in the “keyboard enthusiast community”.

Daniel Beardsmore:  What you've got to ask yourselves is, what is the purpose of such a classification.

ullr: At this point, I don't think it's possible to objectively quantify "mechanical".

hasu: "mechanical" is useful or no problem at least in casual conversersaion even if people use their own different definitions/feelings. But in (technical) discussion the term is useless or even worse.

Polymer: I'm not sure why it even matters... People will argue back and forth about it..but it doesn't change the switch at all.  It isn't going to change it in the future either...

Oobly: What we as keyboard enthusiasts call "mechanical" keyboards is independent of the dictionary definition of "mechanical", it's merely a partially descriptive term [...] In many cases it is used to mean "not a mass-produced rubber dome board made for the average joe PC user who doesn't care". In fact, I suspect the definition is subtly different for every keyboard enthusiast.

[Macsmasher]

After participating in this thread, I'm willing to concede Topre isn't 'mechanical'. It's better. Mechanical is VGA. VGA rocked it in 2002. But now we have digital dual link DVI, current HDMI and DisplayPort standards. Why do you want to shove Topre into the old 'legacy' standard? Topre is above that. Sorry MX guys.

Now, if Cherry comes out with something that can compete, that's another story. I'll jump the Topre ship in a heartbeat if Cherry can come up with something better. But based on the sand-filled switches they've been producing for years, I'd have to say they're not even in the same league as Topre.

Ok, hit me with everything you got MX sheeple!

[tbc]

jeebus

hate or worship topre all you want.

was it really necessary to butcher language in the meanwhile?  yoy are COMPLETELY allowed to change definitions of a word as long as you state the new definition.

also.  jargon.

[Jumpjet]

I love my Topre. It's the best...THE BEST keyboard I've ever owned, but the hardcore Topre fanboys...there are some pretty grim deep-seated behavioural syndromes running rampant there, wouldn't you say? What an deeply unedifying spectacle.