Are Topre boards really mechanical keyboards?

[wyatt8740]

But in the most literal sense, the PCB is a part, and the rubber dome is a part, and the switch is a part. So unless you can make all three of those the same part, any rubberdome keyboard is mechanical.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

you guys are repeating yourselves...

[ConscienceDrop]

Topre are mostly an excuse to believe that the person ever liked mechanical in the first place.

if you were to go back to rubberdomes you would be a dumbass, but if you buy 300$ rubberdomes then you can pretend all the money you spent on mx you didnt even like was getting you to your "endgame" keyboard.

[Novus]

you guys are repeating yourselves...

shhhhhhhhh let these plebes hash it out.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

you guys are repeating yourselves...

shhhhhhhhh let these plebes hash it out.

[wyatt8740]

Damn, can't argue with that GIF. I'm out.

(the image was modified after I replied. Here's the original:)

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Damn, can't argue with that GIF. I'm out.

[noisyturtle]

How Can Topres Be Mechanical If Our Eyes Aren't Mechanical?

[ideus]

Keyboards can be classified into three broad groups: The ones that use a plastic scissor+cup or similar device to actuate; the boards the have rubber-like plastic or elastomeric materials to produce the actuation; and those that have metallic springs.


The first category covers most of the laptop keyboards and portable-low-profile ones. The second includes most rubber dome, and Topre boards; by all means they are not the same, but share the actuation device concept. The third includes MX, BS and similar mechanisms.


I would like to point that the spring based boards have discrete mechanisms that are easily recognized as mechanical switches and mechanical boards. That may lead to the general use of the term here at GH and DT as The definition of mechanical board: The keyboard that carries discrete mechanical switches.


However, we debate the quality and reliability of boards to fulfill the task at hand, either, to type, or for gaming, and even for customizing them, that is our main common interest as GH members. But this is not as simple as classifying a particular board as mechanical or otherwise.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

[ander]

Technically, all keyboards are "mechanical", because they all consist of assembled, moving parts used to achieve a specific result.

The term "mechanical keyboard" came into use to distinguish the various and significantly more expensive, higher-quality forms of KB technology—including those that utilize durable rubber domes—from the cheap, short-wearing RD KBs most of the world uses.

It's an ambiguous term that doesn't stand up to rigorous analysis. People use it because no one could think of a better one, and because they know what it's supposed to mean.

It's like "acoustic" musical instruments. They were originally just called "instruments". When electric instruments were invented, suddenly there was a need to distinguish the non-electrics from them—so the term "acoustic" came into use (probably because "non-electric" sounded goofy). But technically, all musical instruments are "acoustic", because music is ultimately about sound, no matter how it's produced.

[Dihedral]

Quite frankly, this is probably the best way to sort out keyboards. Though people will argue endlessly about the positions of the boards in the top right box.

[Dihedral]

Technically, all keyboards are "mechanical", because they all consist of assembled, moving parts used to achieve a specific result.

The term "mechanical keyboard" came into use to distinguish the various and significantly more expensive, higher-quality forms of KB technology—including those that utilize durable rubber domes—from the cheap, short-wearing RD KBs most of the world uses.

It's an ambiguous term that doesn't stand up to rigorous analysis. People use it because no one could think of a better one, and because they know what it's supposed to mean.

It's like "acoustic" musical instruments. They were originally just called "instruments". When electric instruments were invented, suddenly there was a need to distinguish the non-electrics from them—so the term "acoustic" came into use (probably because "non-electric" sounded goofy). But technically, all musical instruments are "acoustic", because music is ultimately about sound, no matter how it's produced.

That's the best analogy I've heard so far. This should be added to the OP.

[ander]

Thanks!

[njbair]

Musical genres also serve as a good analogy here.

In musical academia, pretty much any music ever will fall into one of two categories: pop music or art music. Within pop music there are obviously lots of different genres, such as rock, country, rap, and of course pop (proper). Within art music you've basically got classical and jazz. Classical music is further categorized by time period: baroque, classical (proper), romantic. And if I were to bring this up in a conservatory there would be a line of people itching to correct me, I'm sure. But in the hallways of that conservatory, the word "music," unqualified, means classical music as opposed to pop music. The point is, anywhere you go when someone says "classical music," you generally know what they mean.

When I talk to non-keyboard-enthusiasts, I use the term mechanical keyboard as an easy way to make a distinction (until they get bored and walk away). But here on GH, we never really bother to say "mechanical keyboard," but instead provide a more specific term, in this case "cherry board," "BS," or "Topre." The word "keyboard" by itself generally indicates a mechanical keyboard when used in these forums. We only bother to specify when it's not a mechanical board (i.e. "it's a pretty decent rubberdome").

Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is not whether or not there's a metal spring somewhere in the internals, but it's a matter of design goals. Was the board designed to cut costs, or was it designed to provide a quality typing experience? So then, the answer to OP's question is, it depends what you mean by mechanical. But at the end of the day a Topre is a quality keyboard.

[ideus]

We are, after many deep and clever arguments, in the same original position: What does mechanical-board mean? LOL. I think we all know it well already, that is why we are part of GH after all, the point is that our very personal preferences get in our way to have clear and sound communication because we want to believe our personal choice deserves to be called a mechanical board, even more, the best mechanical board around.


It is ok is you like Topres, or other boards, even rubber domes or Apple's ones, as long as your decision has been well informed and that you are aware of what is a high quality keyboard. And that you really do not need someone else endorsing your preferred board with the mechanical board designation.

[wyatt8740]

I haven't heard anyone say it's not mechanical on this thread. Let's stop this.

[ideus]

The lazy minds need GIFs, that is why here is mine.

[ander]

When I talk to non-keyboard-enthusiasts, I use the term mechanical keyboard as an easy way to make a distinction (until they get bored and walk away). But here on GH, we never really bother to say "mechanical keyboard," but instead provide a more specific term, in this case "cherry board," "BS," or "Topre"...

Good point! A term like "mechanical keyboard" is actually most useful in sales situations, where you're in a store full of KBs, and they need some way of distinguishing the better ones for marketing purposes. I wouldn't be surprised if the marketing guys thought it up.

Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is not whether or not there's a metal spring somewhere in the internals, but it's a matter of design goals. Was the board designed to cut costs, or was it designed to provide a quality typing experience?

Unfortunately, "quality" is very subjective... I actually know people who prefer cheap RD KBs to the kinds of KBs we like, just because they're used to them. Technology's always advancing, too, so someone may eventually invent high-quality switches that don't need springs.

So then, the answer to OP's question is, it depends what you mean by mechanical.

And in any case, we get to keep jabbering about KB stuff, so it can't be bad.

[BEATING A DEAD HORSE]

Hey, it's called "obsessiveness". Haven't you noticed how obsessive KB geeks are? Dude, this is just who we are.  :?)

[faceyourfaces]

Quite frankly, this is probably the best way to sort out keyboards. Though people will argue endlessly about the positions of the boards in the top right box.

Show Image

Capacitive Buckling Spring (Model F) is just so good that it's higher than the chart.

[ander]

Capacitive Buckling Spring (Model F) is just so good that it's higher than the chart.

[MPZ]

Topre are mostly an excuse to believe that the person ever liked mechanical in the first place.

if you were to go back to rubberdomes you would be a dumbass, but if you buy 300$ rubberdomes then you can pretend all the money you spent on mx you didnt even like was getting you to your "endgame" keyboard.

I think you're on to something here. I first tried a mechanical (monoprice 9181) about 2 years ago, and I LOVED it. So about a month ago, when I ordered the parts to build a desktop (After years of laptops), I decided it was time for my first mechanical, looked into tenkeyless red switch boards, and decided on a KUL ES-87. The thing is... I didn't like it nearly as much as I remembered liking the 9181. So I decided to scoop some horribly expensive (for a $130 board) Leopold thick PBT keycaps. They are an improvement, but it's not that drastic. So I bought a novatouch, and lost all interest in cherry-style switches. I'm still wondering what it was about the 9181... I suspect its that the board is pretty much flat (as far as I can tell- I've had a horrible time finding pics, videos, and comprehensive reviews)- which is what I'm used to given the years of laptops and the Mac Pros I use at my school. So while I could probably be reasonably happy on a 9181 or the new monoprice board (or some other more flat cherry or cherry clone switch board), I'm pretty much happy I was unsatisfied with my KUL because it led to my discovery of Topre.

Now I'm just waiting impatiently for Massdrop to send me my EC108 Pro with 35g switches (I returned the novatouch- too stiff for me with PBT keycaps).   

[ideus]

The lazy minds need GIFs, that is why here is mine.




(Attachment Link)

Come on guys, nobody is impressed with this hips movement? )

[sypl]

Some questions:

1. If topre's resistance mostly comes from the rubber, then that just means their rubber is better engineered than the rubber membranes in $10 keyboards, right? So I guess the obvious question is, why don't $10 keyboard manufacturers spend $5 more and produce better rubber domes?

2. I still don't understand what triggers the switch in a topre. Capacitance sensor is on the PCB right? When I press down on the key is it the little black disc on the underside of the dome that alters the capacitance? I hear it's the spring, but I don't get how that works. Me electronics not so gud.

3. Model Fs have capacitive switches. Does it feel any different from a Model M switch?

BTW these two posts were the best answers in this thread. I suppose what we're really looking for is some name better than 'mechanical'. I suggest 'tactile' (which suffers the same problem as mechanical in that all keyboards other than touchscreen ones are technically tactile) or 'predictable' (which sounds stupid).

Technically, every kind of key switch that has one or more moving parts is "mechanical".

However, when people talk about "mechanical" keyboard switches they often refer to the feel of them provided by the metal spring inside. The metal spring provides most of the resistance and the force/displacement curve on the key press is therefore completely or in part linear.
Topre does not fulfil that criteria because most of the resistance is created by a rubber dome - and like all rubber domes it gives S-shaped force/displacement curves.
Topre does however have two other properties that people also connect with "mechanical keyboards" (but which are not compulsory for key switches with metal springs): actuation somewhere in the middle, and a distinct feel when bottoming out.

Technically, all keyboards are "mechanical", because they all consist of assembled, moving parts used to achieve a specific result.

The term "mechanical keyboard" came into use to distinguish the various and significantly more expensive, higher-quality forms of KB technology—including those that utilize durable rubber domes—from the cheap, short-wearing RD KBs most of the world uses.

It's an ambiguous term that doesn't stand up to rigorous analysis. People use it because no one could think of a better one, and because they know what it's supposed to mean.

It's like "acoustic" musical instruments. They were originally just called "instruments". When electric instruments were invented, suddenly there was a need to distinguish the non-electrics from them—so the term "acoustic" came into use (probably because "non-electric" sounded goofy). But technically, all musical instruments are "acoustic", because music is ultimately about sound, no matter how it's produced.

[sethk_]

Some questions:

1. If topre's resistance mostly comes from the rubber, then that just means their rubber is better engineered than the rubber membranes in $10 keyboards, right? So I guess the obvious question is, why don't $10 keyboard manufacturers spend $5 more and produce better rubber domes?

2. I still don't understand what triggers the switch in a topre. Capacitance sensor is on the PCB right? When I press down on the key is it the little black disc on the underside of the dome that alters the capacitance? I hear it's the spring, but I don't get how that works. Me electronics not so gud.

3. Model Fs have capacitive switches. Does it feel any different from a Model M switch?

BTW these two posts were the best answers in this thread. I suppose what we're really looking for is some name better than 'mechanical'. I suggest 'tactile' (which suffers the same problem as mechanical in that all keyboards other than touchscreen ones are technically tactile) or 'predictable' (which sounds stupid).

Technically, every kind of key switch that has one or more moving parts is "mechanical".

However, when people talk about "mechanical" keyboard switches they often refer to the feel of them provided by the metal spring inside. The metal spring provides most of the resistance and the force/displacement curve on the key press is therefore completely or in part linear.
Topre does not fulfil that criteria because most of the resistance is created by a rubber dome - and like all rubber domes it gives S-shaped force/displacement curves.
Topre does however have two other properties that people also connect with "mechanical keyboards" (but which are not compulsory for key switches with metal springs): actuation somewhere in the middle, and a distinct feel when bottoming out.

Technically, all keyboards are "mechanical", because they all consist of assembled, moving parts used to achieve a specific result.

The term "mechanical keyboard" came into use to distinguish the various and significantly more expensive, higher-quality forms of KB technology—including those that utilize durable rubber domes—from the cheap, short-wearing RD KBs most of the world uses.

It's an ambiguous term that doesn't stand up to rigorous analysis. People use it because no one could think of a better one, and because they know what it's supposed to mean.

It's like "acoustic" musical instruments. They were originally just called "instruments". When electric instruments were invented, suddenly there was a need to distinguish the non-electrics from them—so the term "acoustic" came into use (probably because "non-electric" sounded goofy). But technically, all musical instruments are "acoustic", because music is ultimately about sound, no matter how it's produced.

It is a spring, with a rubberdome over the spring, and the slider pushes down on the rubberdome.

[Polymer]

BTW these two posts were the best answers in this thread. I suppose what we're really looking for is some name better than 'mechanical'. I suggest 'tactile' (which suffers the same problem as mechanical in that all keyboards other than touchscreen ones are technically tactile) or 'predictable' (which sounds stupid).

Tactility is there so you know when you've actuated the switch/pressed the key sufficiently...Technically, most of these have a bump that happens slightly before actuation but really, the idea is you know when you've actuated the switch..

This, in comparison to non-tactile switch, such as reds, where really you have no way of feeling when you've actuated the switch. 

You might say, well, normal membrane keyboards don't actuate until you hit bottom..but with a rubber dome it collapses so you pretty much do hit bottom...the general idea is the same.

It is also why some people dislike linear switches because we've gotten used to some sort of confirmation we've pressed the keys..even when it really doesn't matter because we can't react to it if we're typing sufficiently fast..but we're still used to feeling something..

[sypl]

Put me down as one who doesn't like linears. Seems to defeat the purpose of a mechanical switch if you ask me. But what's a mechanical switch anyway? 

[sypl]

It is a spring, with a rubberdome over the spring, and the slider pushes down on the rubberdome.

Yes, I get that, but what's causes the capacitive switch to trigger? Something has to cause the capacitance to change. What is it? Is it the spring? My understanding of capacitors is that there's an insulator between the two plates (on the PCB), which in this case is... air? Then when I press down on the dome and compress the spring, at some point the charge discharges across the spring. Correct?

That's probably hopelessly wrong. Someone help explain it to me please. 

[sethk_]

It is a spring, with a rubberdome over the spring, and the slider pushes down on the rubberdome.

Yes, I get that, but what's causes the capacitive switch to trigger? Something has to cause the capacitance to change. What is it? If it's the spring, eh? My understanding of capacitors is that there's an insulator between the two plates (on the PCB), which in this case is... air? Then when I press down on the dome and compress the spring, at some point the charge discharges across the spring.

That's probably hopelessly wrong. Someone help explain it to me please. 

The rubberdome pushes down 2 pieces that complete the contact, you can read more here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rubber_dome

[sypl]

The rubberdome pushes down 2 pieces that complete the contact, you can read more here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rubber_dome

I think you're describing rubber dome over a membrane. If that's how the topre works then actuation would require bottoming out, which I don't think it does. Besides, with a membrane, it would be the black disc that would be the contact point and actuator, but in the literature I've read it says the spring is a key part of actuation, related to capacitance. I don't think capacitive switches need contact to actuate. If it did then it wouldn't really be any different from a cherry electrical switch.

Another puzzle: does the spring actually sit on top of and in contact with the PCB like this? http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg Wouldn't that cause a short?

[sethk_]

The rubberdome pushes down 2 pieces that complete the contact, you can read more here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rubber_dome

I think you're describing rubber dome over a membrane. If that's how the topre works then actuation would require bottoming out, which I don't think it does. Besides, with a membrane, it would be the black disc that would be the contact point and actuator, but in the literature I've read it says the spring is a key part of actuation, related to capacitance. I don't think capacitive switches need contact to actuate. If it did then it wouldn't really be any different from a cherry electrical switch.

Another puzzle: does the spring actually sit on top of and in contact with the PCB like this? http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg Wouldn't that cause a short?

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

[sypl]

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Your linking game is strong. But did you actually read the page? Because this is as much as it says, and for that matter anywhere I can find on the internet says about the actuation mechanism.

"When the conical spring is compressed, a capacitative sensing mechanism on the PCB senses the key press mid-actuation. Circuitry on the PCB collects sensing data from smaller key groups and feeds it to the controller. This scheme has the capacity for providing N-key roll-over."

The key, murky part:
"a capacitative sensing mechanism on the PCB senses the key press mid-actuation. "

How? How does the spring relate to the capacitive sensors on the PCB? Does the spring hold some charge?

Once again, does anyone actually know how a Topre switch works?

[sethk_]

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

Your linking game is strong. But did you actually read the page? Because this is as much as it says, and for that matter anywhere I can find on the internet says about the actuation mechanism.

"When the conical spring is compressed, a capacitative sensing mechanism on the PCB senses the key press mid-actuation. Circuitry on the PCB collects sensing data from smaller key groups and feeds it to the controller. This scheme has the capacity for providing N-key roll-over."

The key, murky part:
"a capacitative sensing mechanism on the PCB senses the key press mid-actuation. "

How? How does the spring relate to the capacitive sensors on the PCB? Does the spring hold some charge?

Once again, does anyone actually know how a Topre switch works?

In the pictures, you will see a little rubber dong on the inside of the rubber some, and this is how it can actuate without bottoming out, at least try to use some common sense, instead of letting us spoon feed information that I learned from just googling how does topre work. If that is a bit tough the visualize, here is a diagram

[sypl]

In the pictures, you will see a little rubber dong on the inside of the rubber some, and this is how it can actuate without bottoming out, at least try to use some common sense, instead of letting us spoon feed information that I learned from just googling how does topre work. If that is a bit tough the visualize, here is a diagram

Show Image

Are you just pasting the first google results you can find? Here's the inside of a topre rubber dome. Notice it doesn't have a contact pad or 'rubber dong'.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/2/24/Topre_Short_Throw_-_Dome_Comparison_Underside.jpg.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/5/5e/Topre_Dome_Sheet_and_Mounting_Plate.JPG

This is the rubber dome from Topre's conductive switch, the one that does require contact, hence the carbon pad: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Sony_BKE_2011_-_Switch_Dome_Bottom.jpg

Even if your explanation were correct it still doesn't explain how the spring is an integral component of the actuation mechanism.

[sethk_]

In the pictures, you will see a little rubber dong on the inside of the rubber some, and this is how it can actuate without bottoming out, at least try to use some common sense, instead of letting us spoon feed information that I learned from just googling how does topre work. If that is a bit tough the visualize, here is a diagram

Show Image

Are you just pasting the first google results you can find? Here's the inside of a topre rubber dome. Notice it doesn't have a contact pad or 'rubber dong'.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/2/24/Topre_Short_Throw_-_Dome_Comparison_Underside.jpg.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/5/5e/Topre_Dome_Sheet_and_Mounting_Plate.JPG

This is the rubber dome from Topre's conductive switch, the one that does require contact, hence the carbon pad: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Sony_BKE_2011_-_Switch_Dome_Bottom.jpg

Even if your explanation were correct it still doesn't explain how the spring is an integral component of the actuation mechanism.

That was from keychatters blog, if you want me to I can take some pictures of my HHKB's internals to try and give a visual.

[sypl]

It's ok, there's images of the HHKB rubber dome sheet about on the internet. Seems there's no rubber nub on those either:
http://www.computerartisan.com/hhk/pro0.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/6p38jssxz/DSC00637.jpg

So, gotta be the spring, right? I'm just not understanding that mechanism just yet. As you have a HHKB though, can you confirm whether the springs are in contact with the PCB or not? My assumption would be that they would. But again, doesn't that cause a short?

[Moralless]

It's ok, there's images of the HHKB rubber dome sheet about on the internet. Seems there's no rubber nub on those either:
http://www.computerartisan.com/hhk/pro0.jpg
http://s13.postimg.org/6p38jssxz/DSC00637.jpg

So, gotta be the spring, right? I'm just not understanding that mechanism just yet. As you have a HHKB though, can you confirm whether the springs are in contact with the PCB or not? My assumption would be that they would. But again, doesn't that cause a short?

Topre boards work by capacitance (here's a pretty good video describing the basics of it) in this case the conical spring (which has charge) would act the same way as plate 1(except it's the one being moved) in the video that I linked. The conical springs does make contact with the PCB but it has relatively nothing to do with how the key becomes actuated since no physical contact needs to take place for the charges to be transferred.

[sypl]

Thanks for that. I think I get it now. My mistake was thinking that the two plates were on the PCB itself.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/topre_041.jpg

I found this helped a lot: http://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4368384/Designing-reliable-capacitive-touch-interfaces

Basically, the switch works the same as a touchscreen button, with the spring taking place of the finger. Set the capacitance such that resting contact doesn't trigger a discharge, but further compression (bringing the plates closer) will, at some defined point. That's my understanding. Let me know if I've got any of this wrong.

There do seem to always be two parts on the PCB for each switch though. What's that about? One for charging and one to ground?

[Moralless]

Thanks for that. I think I get it now. My mistake was thinking that the two plates were on the PCB itself.
http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/topre_041.jpg

I found this helped a lot: http://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4368384/Designing-reliable-capacitive-touch-interfaces

Basically, the switch works the same as a touchscreen button, with the spring taking place of the finger. Set the capacitance such that resting contact doesn't trigger a discharge, but further compression (bringing the plates closer) will, at some defined point. That's my understanding. Let me know if I've got any of this wrong.

There do seem to always be two parts on the PCB for each switch though. What's that about? One for charging and one to ground?

Yep smartphone screens work the same as topre switches nd your understanding on how topre switches works is enough in regards to this discussion. I don't know what you mean "two parts on the PCB" do you mean like where the 2 pins of cherry mx switches go through? Or the 2 white cirlces in the centre from the image you linked? I'm not entirely sure what components are used on topre PCBs but if I had to guess those would be the capacitors.

[sypl]

Let's use this image: http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg

Each switch on the PCB has the inner circle and then an outer circle surrounding, but not touching it. My guess is that the outer creates the charge and the inner pad detects capacitance. But really just a guess.

[Moralless]

Let's use this image: http://deskthority.net/w/images/3/30/Topre_Short_Throw_-_PCB.jpg

Each switch on the PCB has the inner circle and then an outer circle surrounding, but not touching it. My guess is that the outer creates the charge and the inner pad detects capacitance. But really just a guess.

Oh those lines. Without access to a schematic of a topre PCB I have no way to tell you what they do.

[RoflCopter4]

This thread makes me weep for the education system in the modern world. If only there were a modicum of linguistics education during k-12 threads like this wouldn't exist. This is an argument about the prescriptive definition of "mechanical" and as long as people are going to push one definition or another as "correct" then this isn't going anywhere. Language isn't logical. If someone's understanding of the word "mechanical" includes topre switches then so be it; another person's might not. This doesn't change the nature of topre switches at all. In fact, in this case "mechanical keyboard" is a term that has come to have its own definition separate of it's constituent parts that usually means "high quality keyboard", but even then it just doesn't make any difference whether you want to include topre among that set.

[ideus]

This thread makes me weep for the education system in the modern world. If only there were a modicum of linguistics education during k-12 threads like this wouldn't exist. This is an argument about the prescriptive definition of "mechanical" and as long as people are going to push one definition or another as "correct" then this isn't going anywhere. Language isn't logical. If someone's understanding of the word "mechanical" includes topre switches then so be it; another person's might not. This doesn't change the nature of topre switches at all. In fact, in this case "mechanical keyboard" is a term that has come to have its own definition separate of it's constituent parts that usually means "high quality keyboard", but even then it just doesn't make any difference whether you want to include topre among that set.

+1, The more is written, it gets more annoying. They keep discussing the same issue again, and again, and ...