HHKB layout users: Have you ever missed the long right shift and backspace keys?

[ideus]

As a HHKB layout user: What has been your experience with this small detail of the ANSI layout: The unnecessarily long right shift and backspace.


Have you ever need or missed them?
Do you have some typing problems with the small right shift in the HHKB layout?
Is the usage of \|, and ~` keys at the top right corner of your board functional?


Any recollection of your experience would be very welcome.


Of course, the use of the famous control key located over the caps lock is also of interest in this thread. As it would be the diamond arrows cluster.

[sethk_]

I like the backspace so much more, and it is the perfect length, and I don't even use the right shift, so I like this layout a lot more, especially since I used to use caps lock as backspace, but I like it better with control

[exitfire401]

Not once.

[jackalope]

In my experience it's a little awkward at first, but by the 2nd day it just felt more natural.  Can't attest to the right shift because I only use left side modifyers.

[snipars]

Never, the only thing i've missed is keys in the bottom left and right. 
the way the HHKB is used, i have to use the default backspace position and get used to using it on other keyboards, whereas in the past i had backspace to the left of A (where control is on hhkb) but if i bind it there, there's nowhere to put the control

[epzy]

no

[byker]

no

[ideus]

Never, the only thing i've missed is keys in the bottom left and right. 
the way the HHKB is used, i have to use the default backspace position and get used to using it on other keyboards, whereas in the past i had backspace to the left of A (where control is on hhkb) but if i bind it there, there's nowhere to put the control

But those empty spaces give the HHKB layout all of its elegance.

[saturnotaku]

It's not the size of the backspace key that makes the HHKB great but its location. I find myself having a harder time adjusting back to a standard keyboard than the other way around.

[snipars]

Never, the only thing i've missed is keys in the bottom left and right. 
the way the HHKB is used, i have to use the default backspace position and get used to using it on other keyboards, whereas in the past i had backspace to the left of A (where control is on hhkb) but if i bind it there, there's nowhere to put the control

But those empty spaces give the HHKB layout all of its elegance.

It definitely has its charm, but i'm more into the kind of design that fits as many keys as possible into the keyboard without gaps, like a lightsaver

[clacktalk]

the backspace placement is a major part of why i'm so into the layout. hhkb layout is godlike

[flaming_june]

Not once.

Nope.

Never even thought about this til now, and I switch between normal layout a lot too.

[ideus]

Never, the only thing i've missed is keys in the bottom left and right. 
the way the HHKB is used, i have to use the default backspace position and get used to using it on other keyboards, whereas in the past i had backspace to the left of A (where control is on hhkb) but if i bind it there, there's nowhere to put the control

But those empty spaces give the HHKB layout all of its elegance.

It definitely has its charm, but i'm more into the kind of design that fits as many keys as possible into the keyboard without gaps, like a lightsaver

Got it.

[Polymer]

CTRL placing is great...makes complete sense since capslock is a worthless key that sits in a premium position on a keyboard.
Backspace key makes sense..very natural to reach..really makes me wish they were all like this.  Easy to get used to but a bit harder to switch back and forth on another keyboard...but for me that was key. 

Arrow keys are OK...I can see why it is there because they were expecting everyone to just use FN with your right pinky so in that case, it makes sense but I still would have preferred FN with the left and IJKL for arrow keys.  Like for me, I made the left windows key fn although really, I don't end up using it like I originally thought I would because the arrow keys end up being easier once you shift your right hand to use the right fn. 

In general, it is a good layout..I'm not sure having that space in the corners is good but not really sure it needs anything in those places..

[Smasher816]

Never, the only thing i've missed is keys in the bottom left and right. 

Infinity keyboard is cool in that regard.

Somehow I use the backspace position on my HHKB and mac/other computers fine without thinking about it.... What is harder is not having the ctrl in the caps spot. When I use someone else's computer I end up toggling caps like crazy and other random stuff when copying text.

[intelli78]

No, but I miss the arrow keys when I am working on spreadsheets.

[Sygaldry]

Not once.

Nope.

[daerid]

Using my pinky to hit the backspace key caused me some crazy pain in my right hand. It might just be a matter of getting used to it, but it'll be hard to unlearn 20+ years of typing habit

[Smasher816]

I might be strange but I use my ring finger for the hhkb backspace...

[TopreFan333]

I'm early on in training my hands to use the HHKB, but so far it's the backspace location that's throwing me more (surprisingly) than the arrow cluster. I suspect it'll all become pretty natural over time. I'm already adapting to hitting three or four keys simultaneously to move or highlight a word at a time.

[ideus]

I'm early on in training my hands to use the HHKB, but so far it's the backspace location that's throwing me more (surprisingly) than the arrow cluster. I suspect it'll all become pretty natural over time. I'm already adapting to hitting three or four keys simultaneously to move or highlight a word at a time.

That is why I am planning to use the HHKB layout with arrows in the first layer of an Infinity keyboard.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

For me, the layout is the worst thing about the HHKB. The Ctrl is positioned nicely, but I miss a right control to avoid some contortions when doing some left handed key chords.

I also find the backspace, ~`, |/, as well as the esc keys to have poor positioning. If I want to change the muscle memory of my typing, it has to be for a very good reason. So far the only nonstandard deviation is dual role ESC/Ctrl for caps lock. Therefore, I want standard ANSI positioning for everything. Backspace, \| and `~. And a right Ctrl. For these reasons, I've ordered a V60MTSQ, hoping to find decent PBT caps some day.

[rowdy]

Nope.

I hardly use r-Shift, and seem to adjust to the backspace on the HHKB's position a lot quicker than asjusting back when I switch back to TKL layout.

One thing that gets me every time is on Mac Command-` switches between open windows in the current application.  `~ key is top left of TKL keyboard, but top right on HHKB, so I have to remember to use r-Command and my right hand.

[ideus]

For me, the layout is the worst thing about the HHKB. The Ctrl is positioned nicely, but I miss a right control to avoid some contortions when doing some left handed key chords.

I also find the backspace, ~`, |/, as well as the esc keys to have poor positioning. If I want to change the muscle memory of my typing, it has to be for a very good reason. So far the only nonstandard deviation is dual role ESC/Ctrl for caps lock. Therefore, I want standard ANSI positioning for everything. Backspace, \| and `~. And a right Ctrl. For these reasons, I've ordered a V60MTSQ, hoping to find decent PBT caps some day.

What do you need the right control for, exactly?

[hjkl_over_wasd]

I like to have two ctrl keys, for the same reason as wanting two shift keys. Avoid repetitive strain on one finger/hand. Since I have dual role caps-lock with esc/ctrl, I want to offload my left pinky finger as much as possible.

[ideus]

I like to have two ctrl keys, for the same reason as wanting two shift keys. Avoid repetitive strain on one finger/hand. Since I have dual role caps-lock with esc/ctrl, I want to offload my left pinky finger as much as possible.

If you use a programmable non Topre board you can have the best of both, and use the caps lock standard ANSI position for Left-Control, and still have the Right-Control in its original location.

The HHKB does not have a couple of bottom row key positions, and that is reasonable only as an aesthetic feature, but it is wasted space, in a device that it is dedicated to have key switches. It really looks elegant, but it is a waste, and that is a fact, and facts are undisputed.

[mashby]

I haven't missed those keys in the least. In fact, I find it harder to go back when I rotate out my HHKB.

The Control key however, does take some getting used to.

[bazh]

I rarely use the control on OS X but when on Windows it's a lot better.

The whole change in the HHKB layout feels more natural to me.

[cheebs]

The backspace key is fine. Really nice actually.

Right shift certainly still works, and is not difficult to access. I use it all the time.

Control location is excellent.  I don't agree with the opinion of hjkl_over_wasd, but perhaps we're using different applications.

The \| and `~ keys are arguably the most difficult keys on the HHKB layout.  I use these keys a lot. They're essential for programming in a language like c, ruby, shell and many others. 75% of the time I had to look at the keyboard to hit the key. The other 25% I hit adjacent keys by accident and got pissed off.  There's also something weird about the spacing of the symbolic keys on the right side of the keyboard like [{ and ]}. I missed those a lot too, and I'm not really sure why, but they're also critical to programming and again, pissed me off when I didn't hit them.

Anyway, after a couple of months or so I'd grown quite acclimated to it and didn't have problems, but anyone that has been writing code on ANSI for several years and is buying the HHKB to do some real work with, needs to see this disclaimer.  The HHKB has a learning curve. It will take you some time to learn its layout.  For all my efforts, I still refuse to let it leave my possession in exchange for naught but a charlatan of a kb. Let that be an indicator to you all of how awesome this keyboard is.   

But do not despair, young hobbit.  By virtue of patience, you will reap great rewards in the quality and joy of your work.  The HHKB is without a doubt, the best keyboard I've had the pleasure of journeying with through everyday life.  I'm glad to have it with me, here at the end of my post and this thread.

[Joey Quinn]

Nope

[ideus]

The backspace key is fine. Really nice actually.

Right shift certainly still works, and is not difficult to access. I use it all the time.

Control location is excellent.  I don't agree with the opinion of hjkl_over_wasd, but perhaps we're using different applications.

The \| and `~ keys are arguably the most difficult keys on the HHKB layout.  I use these keys a lot. They're essential for programming in a language like c, ruby, shell and many others. 75% of the time I had to look at the keyboard to hit the key. The other 25% I hit adjacent keys by accident and got pissed off.  There's also something weird about the spacing of the symbolic keys on the right side of the keyboard like [{ and ]}. I missed those a lot too, and I'm not really sure why, but they're also critical to programming and again, pissed me off when I didn't hit them.

Anyway, after a couple of months or so I'd grown quite acclimated to it and didn't have problems, but anyone that has been writing code on ANSI for several years and is buying the HHKB to do some real work with, needs to see this disclaimer.  The HHKB has a learning curve. It will take you some time to learn its layout.  For all my efforts, I still refuse to let it leave my possession in exchange for naught but a charlatan of a kb. Let that be an indicator to you all of how awesome this keyboard is.   

But do not despair, young hobbit.  By virtue of patience, you will reap great rewards in the quality and joy of your work.  The HHKB is without a doubt, the best keyboard I've had the pleasure of journeying with through everyday life.  I'm glad to have it with me, here at the end of my post and this thread.

This is a very informative post, thank you very much for sharing your experience with the layout. The thread is not necessarily related with the HHKB but with its layout, therefore this may apply to the actual HHKB or an MX with the layout implemented.

[TopreFan333]

Isn't the point of the "unused" spaces down in the lower corners that you're supposed to be able to reach everything without moving your whole hand off the home row?

While the arrow thing threw me at first, I can see it actually being faster when you think about how much you have to move your whole arm (try it and watch your elbow) to get to a traditional key cluster.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Isn't the point of the "unused" spaces down in the lower corners that you're supposed to be able to reach everything without moving your whole hand off the home row?

While the arrow thing threw me at first, I can see it actually being faster when you think about how much you have to move your whole arm (try it and watch your elbow) to get to a traditional key cluster.

The secret is to never use the arrow keys at all.

[TopreFan333]

The secret is to never use the arrow keys at all.

That's funny, but I actually did try doing a bit of writing the other night with my screen turned off, just typing blindly. It felt really weird.

[monotagary]

I love the HHKB layout to death.


Putting control in the caps lock position makes a lot of sense to me. I think that caps lock is a ****ty and worthless key anyway, so replacing it with a key I use all the time is way better.


The short right shift doesn't bother me one bit. I don't know why anyone would reach that far on the key just to shift. And throwing the fn key where it was is very nice too. If I have to use the fn layer I can just shift my right hand over and then get all the all of the fn keys with just one hand.


But the backspace is definitely my favorite part of the HHKB layout. It is the perfect length and it's in the perfect location. I don't feel like I have to stretch any fingers to far to hit it and I never really saw the value in having the "\|" key a different length from all the other alphanumerics.


HHKB layout is love. 

[ideus]

By implication, the secret to have the ultimate comfortable keyboard is to never use it at all???

[ideus]

I tried the HHKB layout in my GON for three months, but the brain muscle forces me to search for the backspace key at the corner of the board. It was even more "comfortable" to have a short 1u backspace key there.

[_PixelNinja]

Count me as another one to not miss the the long right Shift and Backspace. I very much enjoy the layout of the HHKB as it is : elegant and functional. At least to me it is. 

[raymogi]

Because of the HHKB, every other keyboard I use will have backspace remapped to backslash.

I don't miss the right shift cause I only use the left one

[TopreFan333]

When I was first getting used to the layout, switching back and forth between other keyboards and the HHKB, the delete key threw me a little -- but at some point I internalized the whole thing and now even when I've been typing on my laptop for a while, my brain snaps into "HHKB mode" or something, and I'm quickly using the layout just fine, arrows included. The shift key never bothered me at all. Even at a smaller size, it's a big enough target to hit with the pinkie.

[keshley]

The only key I find odd is tilde. Probably because I don't use it enough. I've always hit the right shift on the left half of the key, so no issue there at all.

[jerue]

Definitely no to the right shift. I like the backspace where it is, but I only have my HHKB that uses it, so switching back and forth can get annoying sometimes. I'd probably say no to this also.

[TopreFan333]

The only key I find odd is tilde. Probably because I don't use it enough. I've always hit the right shift on the left half of the key, so no issue there at all.

I use the tilde so infrequently that I mapped it to forward delete, so I don't have to press FN to use it. It's a minor pain on the occasions when I DO need that tilde, though.

[Polymer]

you mean shift?

It is the same keying as normal just a different spot for it...doesn't require the FN layer..although maybe it depends on how you have yours setup...

[_PixelNinja]

The only key I find odd is tilde. Probably because I don't use it enough. I've always hit the right shift on the left half of the key, so no issue there at all.

I really like having the tilde on the right side of the keyboard. Since I write in multiples languages and use the US Int logical layout, I find it to be better suited as it is on the HHKB. It's actually one of the reasons I went with the HHKB instead of the FC660c.

[keshley]

The only key I find odd is tilde. Probably because I don't use it enough. I've always hit the right shift on the left half of the key, so no issue there at all.

I really like having the tilde on the right side of the keyboard. Since I write in multiples languages and use the US Int logical layout, I find it to be better suited as it is on the HHKB. It's actually one of the reasons I went with the HHKB instead of the FC660c.

I don't think the placement is odd, just the hardest key to use on the board. And likely due to lack of use, it's the only key I have to think about where it is. There's nowhere else I'd put it on the board, or I'd have moved it.

[ideus]

What about the arrows? I use TouchCoursor with the arrows at SpaceFN+IJKL, this setup is closer to VIM, and it works very well, you do not need to find an FN key with your pinky but with you thumb, it is very easy.

[keshley]

I use TMK as I find the default function layer to be useless. So, SpaceFn is pretty much the only layer I use.

[ideus]

I use TMK as I find the default function layer to be useless. So, SpaceFn is pretty much the only layer I use.

+1 same here, with SpaceFn I rarely need the hardware second layer in my Nerd60.

[E3E]

I don't have an HHKB, but I do have an Infinity in Hacker layout and I have to say that I enjoy the 1.75u right shift over the longer variant and I find the longer standard version to be a little excessive and unnecessary. The backspace and tilde locations are only really a problem when I move from keyboard to keyboard and find that I'm instinctively tapping "|\" instead of backspace. The tilde being all the way on the right is a bit of a reach, but it's not a big deal.

I should add that I use a 1u shift on my Rapoo KX just fine (I swapped its position so it's not a ridiculous pinky stretch), and that my laptops and my Octagon all have 1.75u right shifts, so it's normal for me and preferred. I am happy a vintage I picked up recently had a short right shift actually!