Tell me about your 60% transition

[DuckMyDucky]

Hey guys, I'm thinking about getting a 60% keyboard, probably a poker 2. I just wanted to hear how people coped with the transition. Are you equally efficient after adjusting? Or even more efficient? Is there any use where you wish you rather had a full size or tkl keyboard? (apart from obvious spreadsheet work, but I prefer my algebra over numbers!) Are you using it full time or mostly for portable use?

PS: I would also like to hear if someone gave up and smashed it as well (or sold it, hopefully)

[hwood34]

The transtition for me was pretty easy since I didn't use most keys that weren't included in a 60% form factor. The only thing that kinda bugged me was the lack of arrow keys, but I adjusted pretty easily

[Roibhilin]

i'm more efficient because i normally waste a lot of effort moving my hand over to the arrow/nav cluster
literally the only time i wish i had a different form factor is when i'm playing games that need a numpad like gmod

[Sygaldry]

Transition to 60% was easy.
The transition back is terribly difficult...
I just got a QFR to mess around with today and my only thoughts are.... THE ARROW KEYS ARE SO FREAKING FAR....

It's nice to have everything accessible from the home row...

[sidel]

The fact you're strongly considering a 60% layout says to me you won't have any trouble adjusting.  The function layer on the poker II is very reasonably laid out, you just need to put in a little bit of time with it.  For anything you might want to change you have another 2 layers you can program.

[asavi]

i'm more efficient because i normally waste a lot of effort moving my hand over to the arrow/nav cluster

I've noticed this too. Being able to use arrows with fn WASD makes it really easy to keep my hands on the keyboard.

[Hypersphere]

If you are considering going 60%, you should take a look at the HHKB Pro 2. However, if you like Cherry mx switches, it is said that the Poker 3 will be out soon. If it is fully programmable as the rumors indicate, then it would be worth a look as well. I happen to like Matias switches, and so another one to check out is the KBP V60, which is available in various flavors of Cherry as well as Matias Click, Quiet, and Quiet Linear. The transition to 60% was easy for me. Now, when I use something like a TKL board, I am struck by how superfluous the "extra" keys are. I like the symmetry of 60% and being able to bring the mouse much closer to the center.

[Sygaldry]

i'm more efficient because i normally waste a lot of effort moving my hand over to the arrow/nav cluster

I've noticed this too. Being able to use arrows with fn WASD makes it really easy to keep my hands on the keyboard.

I prefer FN + [;'/ 

[spiceBar]

Hey guys, I'm thinking about getting a 60% keyboard, probably a poker 2. I just wanted to hear how people coped with the transition. Are you equally efficient after adjusting? Or even more efficient? Is there any use where you wish you rather had a full size or tkl keyboard? (apart from obvious spreadsheet work, but I prefer my algebra over numbers!) Are you using it full time or mostly for portable use?

PS: I would also like to hear if someone gave up and smashed it as well (or sold it, hopefully)

I don't really understand how people can give you advices without knowing what you usually do with your keyboard.

For example there are two extreme cases for which the answers are not too controversial:
- If you do a lot of numerical data entry, a 60% is not a good idea, or you must at least complement it with a numpad.
- If you only type text in plain English (or any other human language), a 60% may be a good idea.

For all other uses, the answer is not easy.

The real problem with 60% boards is that most of them lack direct access to the arrow keys. This cannot be taken lightly. Depending on what you do, you may use the arrows as often as the space bar. It's a huge factor.

[asavi]

Hey guys, I'm thinking about getting a 60% keyboard, probably a poker 2. I just wanted to hear how people coped with the transition. Are you equally efficient after adjusting? Or even more efficient? Is there any use where you wish you rather had a full size or tkl keyboard? (apart from obvious spreadsheet work, but I prefer my algebra over numbers!) Are you using it full time or mostly for portable use?

PS: I would also like to hear if someone gave up and smashed it as well (or sold it, hopefully)

I don't really understand how people can give you advices without knowing what you usually do with your keyboard.

For example there are two extreme cases for which the answers are not too controversial:
- If you do a lot of numerical data entry, a 60% is not a good idea, or you must at least complement it with a numpad.
- If you only type text in plain English (or any other human language), a 60% may be a good idea.

For all other uses, the answer is not easy.

The real problem with 60% boards is that most of them lack direct access to the arrow keys. This cannot be taken lightly. Depending on what you do, you may use the arrows as often as the space bar. It's a huge factor.

Yeah the arrow keys was the thing I was the most worried about. That's what makes the Leopold FC660M/C and Varmillo VB660M so attractive to me.

I just really wanted a 60% keyboard so that I could keep my hands closer together when I use my mouse. I have pretty bad posture a lot of the time so it helps not to have one arm way differently stressed than the other.

[JackMills]

I made the transition on a Leopold FC660M, and that's easy. You don't have to miss the arrow keys (I use them often) and you get a bonus Insert and Delete (I am using both more often then I thought). Using the Fn layer becomes a habit really fast. For numbers I just move my hands to the top row with the 4 and 7 as home keys (when inputting longer numbers such as Teamviewer ID or part numbers, I don't do spreadsheet work). I had to change some of the keyboard shortcuts for some programs because they used the numpad numbers, I never thought about that until I couldn't do stuff anymore.
I must say that I like 60%, I can put my trackball closer which is great. The transition also made me think about how I use my keyboard and made me use more keyboard shortcuts now. So overall a very positive experience.

[Sygaldry]

Hey guys, I'm thinking about getting a 60% keyboard, probably a poker 2. I just wanted to hear how people coped with the transition. Are you equally efficient after adjusting? Or even more efficient? Is there any use where you wish you rather had a full size or tkl keyboard? (apart from obvious spreadsheet work, but I prefer my algebra over numbers!) Are you using it full time or mostly for portable use?

PS: I would also like to hear if someone gave up and smashed it as well (or sold it, hopefully)

I don't really understand how people can give you advices without knowing what you usually do with your keyboard.

For example there are two extreme cases for which the answers are not too controversial:
- If you do a lot of numerical data entry, a 60% is not a good idea, or you must at least complement it with a numpad.
- If you only type text in plain English (or any other human language), a 60% may be a good idea.

For all other uses, the answer is not easy.

The real problem with 60% boards is that most of them lack direct access to the arrow keys. This cannot be taken lightly. Depending on what you do, you may use the arrows as often as the space bar. It's a huge factor.

Arrow keys on the FN layer is much faster and efficient for me.... this cannot be taken lightly.
Because I use the arrow keys so often, I actually save time from having them accessible from the home row.

[Asininity]

I've always been more comfortable typing on smaller more compact keyboards. It probably derives from all my laptop use. I have a Tex Beetle and I have to say I do like having dedicated arrow keys on it. It's fantastic having something that consumes so little space. It gives me a lot more room on my desk for books, notes, and all of that rubbish I need for university.

I'm about to head into 40% territory, I'm wondering how that's going to go.

[bueller]

Used 60% for a while but I was never really comfortable until I got a GH60, I need full programmability because I'm not a huge fan of the default key layouts. One thing I like to do for the nav keys is change them to the right shift, menu, win and ctrl keys as I never used them otherwise. Works really well for me.

[Oobly]

I transitioned quite smoothly, considering I use arrow and edit keys a lot for my work. First few days were a bit of a struggle, though. I used a KBT Pure as my first 60% and it has a very good Fn layer.

Still took me a month or so to reach the same comfort / efficiency level on it as on a TKL and I don't think I'll really surpass the efficiency I had on the TKL purely because I was so used to and quick on the TKL layout. The 60% allows less hand movement, but the Fn layer key requirement balances it out, especially due to the positioning of Fn keys on normal layout boards. There just aren't any really good places to put one. Caps Lock is perhaps the best spot.

I now alternate between the KBT Pure and a GON NerD60 (and sometimes my split spacebar 40% portable prototype).

[spiceBar]

I transitioned quite smoothly, considering I use arrow and edit keys a lot for my work. First few days were a bit of a struggle, though. I used a KBT Pure as my first 60% and it has a very good Fn layer.

Still took me a month or so to reach the same comfort / efficiency level on it as on a TKL and I don't think I'll really surpass the efficiency I had on the TKL purely because I was so used to and quick on the TKL layout. The 60% allows less hand movement, but the Fn layer key requirement balances it out, especially due to the positioning of Fn keys on normal layout boards. There just aren't any really good places to put one. Caps Lock is perhaps the best spot.

I now alternate between the KBT Pure and a GON NerD60 (and sometimes my split spacebar 40% portable prototype).

Yes, I second that.

A 60% is good for your posture and for allowing the mouse to be closer. You will also move your hands less, but in the end this is a bitter victory.

Going back to a TKL I always find that I need to move my hands significantly more, but I may still be actually more productive.

You actually fight to get on a 60% the same productivity than on a TKL, and in the end it's not clear that you have gained anything.

Going from a full size to a TKL is a huge win (except for some users I guess). But going from a TKL or a full size to a 60% is not such a clear win.

It's something that one must try, and then the decision to keep the 60% or not becomes easier.

[DuckMyDucky]

Going from a full size to a TKL is a huge win (except for some users I guess). But going from a TKL or a full size to a 60% is not such a clear win.

Right, but in my case I keep trackball on left side, so basically only gain I would get from going from full size to tkl is aesthetics and portability. Based on the response here and thinking through my own uses, I think I will stick with the keyboards I already have for now (all full size)... I was mostly looking for excuses to buy another keyboard. Then again programming my own vim like layout on a poker 2 does seem very tempting. I already mostly use tiling window managers with vim like key bindings, my web browsers have vim like keybindings, pdf readers have vim like keybindings... Maybe I should try it out with a poker

[snipars]

there's no transition, it's just more efficient and easier to use

[slip84]

I went:

"Gaming" rubberdome (lolgitech) > "Gaming" mech (lolzer) > Das Keyboard Ultimate S > Filco Ninja fullsized > Leopold TKL > Poker II

For me it was about gaining desk space, reducing keys that I used infrequently, and feeling a bit more svelte. The "gaming" boards that I had were both atrociously large. When I started working from home, desk space became premium real estate as I added monitors and computers. By the end of my working-from-home days, I had three 60% boards (HHKB for work; Poker II for gaming; and BT aluminum Apple board for the Mac mini for browsing, music, etc.). So I was actively switching between those layouts every day and throughout the day, too. That was fun for my brain.

Anyway, as someone around here had in their signature line (or maybe still does - Binge, I think): 60% 100% of the time.

[demik]

E z p z

[Fnzzy]

Transition to 60% wasn't really hard. Previously I used a tenkeyless so I was already somewhat used to a smaller form factor. Didn't use the F-row very much, neither the keys above the arrows. I also had my keyboard very close to my mouse which lead to the keyboard sitting on my mousepad, so 60% was perfect for me. Took a bit to get used to the Fn layer on my Poker that I bought but that's about it.

However getting used to my Viper took me some weeks. First time using an ANSI keyboard and first time using CapsLock as Control. I also had to come up with a new Fn layer. Now I am really comfortable with it!

However, my ISO Poker 2 is a bit uncomfortable to use now, that's why I haven't touched it since I got my Viper. Looking forward to get a programmable PCB for the case at some point though.

[monotagary]

i'm more efficient because i normally waste a lot of effort moving my hand over to the arrow/nav cluster

I've noticed this too. Being able to use arrows with fn WASD makes it really easy to keep my hands on the keyboard.

I prefer FN + [;'/ 

HHKB lyfe. 

[Dee1]

The transition was a bit difficult for me. I'm far less efficient with a 60% keyboard than a full-size or TKL one. These days, I only use my 60% whenever I don't need to do anything more than type emails, notes, forum posts, etc. Even then, I'm still slower than usual. I use the arrow keys, the home/end cluster, and the f-row keys far too often to have them all stuck away on an inconvenient (for me) FN layer. I also use the numpad enough that I need it there for work, but I don't need it as often for home usage.

Basically, I don't think I could use one as my main keyboard. I still think it's pretty nifty though.

[mashby]

It really depends on the type of typing that you do and what your "go to" keys are. For me, most of my typing is text so I didn't find the transition that difficult. I don't need dedicated arrows and since my main machine has typically been a laptop since 1996, I don't find having to use the function key to access certain keys a big deal.

My business partner on the other hand, says that he has to have the 10-key and likes having dedicated keys for dedicated functions, such as the arrow keys. It boggles his mind to see me use complex key combinations. 

I was shy of the 60%, thinking it was too small, so I started with the KBT Race (75%) and then moved to the 60% and haven't looked back. The only confusing part now is switching between 60% boards and remembering what the function layers are. Pure, Poker, HHKB all have different fn layers.

The only way to know for sure if the form factor is good for you is to try it. If it's not you can sell it, or use only when you're typing a blog post, or long e-mail/letter etc. I hope you find that you like it!

[pichu23]

TKL to 60% was easy.
60% to TKL was.... a little bit challenging. Especially reaching out to the Esc key but after a few days, all is well

[Coreda]

Was used to the layout a bit before purchase as I used an Autohotkey script that emulated the Poker layout. Have to say though combos that require Shift+Arrow key are still too difficult comparatively imo (not to mention accidentally triggering the Fn+Right Shift programming mode regularly and the Fn+Space alternate layer - the most annoying thing about the Poker II). Previously such combinations could be pressed on a regular board without thinking, but it's not the case on the Poker.

Still, the Caps Lock+WASD arrow key position itself is rather natural for using with one hand with the other free for the mouse. The Page Up/Down and Home/End key positions could be better though. Hopefully the Poker 3 allows for complete customization in that regard.

The space saving is something I constantly appreciate, adds considerable flexibility and extra space.

[BrewCaps]

I didn't.  Need mah arrow keys.

[Nai_Calus]

I've got a 60% and I've tried to use it, but for daily use it's just impractical. I actually very rarely use the middle cluster of keys, just a few things that use arrow and navigation, but I use alt codes a lot and anything that has more than about two numbers I use the numpad for, as well as using it for extra game shortcuts. If I'm typing something that's just words it's OK, but it quickly gets awkward once anything else comes up.

[mashby]

One other thing...

The primary reason that I went down to 60% and have stayed there is due to the location of the mouse/trackpad next to the keyboard. I was beginning to have RSI issues with my shoulder because my arm was always out at an angle to get past the 10-key on a full-sized board. I find that the 60% is ideal for keeping my trackpad in correct proportion to my shoulder.

Left handed users, like my business partner, don't have that issue because the mouse is on the left hand side of the keyboard. I suppose I could get a reverse full-sized, but I don't like having the 10-key on my left. I have a GHPad that I plan to build up that I can bring in when I need it and then push it out of the way when I don't. However, I haven't found the lack of a 10-key to be a big deal for me.

[vindaon]

I'm interested in transitioning to a 60% as well. In fact the whole reason I joined GH was because I was looking them up and I managed to find this community. Good to know most people found the transition easy. I'm still on my fullsize but I'm trying to make a conscious effort to not use the arrow keys, as well as turning numlock off.

Now I'm just waiting for the Poker 3 to be released. 

[Tiramisuu]

There is little or no transition time between a 60% and a full size.
Harder is throwing on a set of blanks and learning your 1234 and | : \ keys without looking.
Next in the list of things is switching to dvorak, colemak or some other optimized keyboard layout.
Learning to stenotype  can add a new layer of insanity.

Poking yourself in the eye with a fork can also be fun.

[vindaon]

I was also considering switching layouts, but not until after I got used to a 60%.

As for stenotype... yeah, I think insanity is a good word for that.

[ddevil]

It was a pretty easy transition for me and I greatly prefer 60% now.  The arrow keys seem so far away now when I have to use something bigger and I'll find myself hitting caps lock a lot on other boards because that's what I use for my Fn layer.  At this point the only board I'd ever get other than a traditional 60% is an ErgoDox or ortholinear 60%.

[FrostyToast]

The first 60% board that I used was a Pure Pro.
One of the worst layouts ever, but it was an easy transition for me nonetheless. It kind of helped that there were extra keys on the board which eased me into it.
I don't use the F keys very often and I don't use the delete cluster or the numpad on a regular basis either.

[ideus]

What transition? My Poker has everything I need in a board.

[sethk_]

What transition? My Poker has everything I need in a board.

Yeah, and with the dip switches and program layer, I made mine exactly the way I wanted it, so every key I wanted was easily accessible.

[Sygaldry]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

[ideus]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

Get an Infinity, or a Viper, but be prepared to pay a premium, or wait for the second round of the Infinity.

[sethk_]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

Get an Infinity, or a Viper, but be prepared to pay a premium, or wait for the second round of the Infinity.

I really wish I would have gotten a viper, I love the way it looks.

[Sygaldry]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

Get an Infinity, or a Viper, but be prepared to pay a premium, or wait for the second round of the Infinity.

Had a Viper (also had the GON HHKB)
Sold both.   )
I'm happy with my HHKB. It is perfection incarnate. 
And with Hasu's BT Controller (some day) it will transcend perfection!

[sethk_]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

Get an Infinity, or a Viper, but be prepared to pay a premium, or wait for the second round of the Infinity.

Had a Viper.
Sold it.   )
I'm happy with my HHKB. It is perfection incarnate. 

Topre > any other switch

[ideus]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

Get an Infinity, or a Viper, but be prepared to pay a premium, or wait for the second round of the Infinity.

Had a Viper (also had the GON HHKB)
Sold both.   )
I'm happy with my HHKB. It is perfection incarnate. 
And with Hasu's BT Controller (some day) it will transcend perfection!

Why did you whine on you Poker then?

[mashby]

I'm happy with my HHKB. It is perfection incarnate. 
And with Hasu's BT Controller (some day) it will transcend perfection!

Don't forget mistakmistake's full aluminum case. 

[spiceBar]

I couldn't get myself to fully appreciate my Poker II but the POK3R should be a nice improvement over the II simply because of the full programmability (if this is even true). Still missing the 1.76u right shift and the 1x 1x backspace (rather than 2x Backspace) for the authentic HHKB-style layout, but that's just me 

I agree with you on the Poker 3, if as you said it is more programmable than the 2. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on our part, because I can't really see how they could make it fully programmable and still accessible for a wide audience. Something that I like, if it stays that way, is that they have omitted the metal plate. Generally I prefer plate-mounted keyboard (Cherry MX or Topre), but for a nomade keyboard, maybe the plate adds too much weight. I have the original Poker X, which does not have a plate, and it's actually pleasant to type on it.

I wish I had ordered the Infinity. Yes, you could program the HHKB layout on it (I'm pretty sure that's what the designers of the Infinity had in mind).

Personally, I would use this extra key at the right of the right Shift, but not as a Fn key. Maybe I could try to break the sacred inverted-T arrow cluster and try Win=left Menu=right SmallKey=up and Ctrl=down. Where did I see this? On old Macs keyboards maybe.

I'm looking forward the second round of the Infinity.

[wyatt8740]

Personally, I think a TKL is the absolute minimum I'd go. As a programmer, I like my home/end keys to be on dedicated buttons. Same for the arrow keys.

[DuckMyDucky]

Thanks guys. I think I might get a tenkeyless or similar layout. At the moment I have home office, which means I can hammer along on my model m all day, but when I'm around people I want something smaller, portable and a sound that doesn't force the people around me to wear ear plugs. Since I spend a lot of time using terminal emulators (a lot of arrows and shift+page up/down), I think I want standard arrows/home/end cluster since I know those by heart. My next challenge becomes finding keys I like as much as buckling springs but without the noise... I guess topre is next step for me, if only it didn't cost a fortune only to find out I may not like it. Such difficult choices

[spiceBar]

Thanks guys. I think I might get a tenkeyless or similar layout. At the moment I have home office, which means I can hammer along on my model m all day, but when I'm around people I want something smaller, portable and a sound that doesn't force the people around me to wear ear plugs. Since I spend a lot of time using terminal emulators (a lot of arrows and shift+page up/down), I think I want standard arrows/home/end cluster since I know those by heart. My next challenge becomes finding keys I like as much as buckling springs but without the noise... I guess topre is next step for me, if only it didn't cost a fortune only to find out I may not like it. Such difficult choices

I don't know if you mean that Topre is close to a silent buckling spring, but just in case: Topre has nothing to do with buckling spring. The feel is totally different.

A BS has a sharp tactile point. A Topre is like a rubber dome, but the tactile point (dome collapse) is more subtle. As soon as the dome has collapsed, the key is registered (on a rubber dome you must hit the bottom). You will bottom out with Topre, but the end of the key travel is not important: you can bottom out very lightly if you want.

Going for a TKL is probably a wise decision for now. A TKL saves a lot of space (you save 4 columns on the right) without needing any re-training. A 60% saves even more space (3 additional columns), but requires a lot of re-training. It's probably something to try as a second step.

[Oobly]

Thanks guys. I think I might get a tenkeyless or similar layout. At the moment I have home office, which means I can hammer along on my model m all day, but when I'm around people I want something smaller, portable and a sound that doesn't force the people around me to wear ear plugs. Since I spend a lot of time using terminal emulators (a lot of arrows and shift+page up/down), I think I want standard arrows/home/end cluster since I know those by heart. My next challenge becomes finding keys I like as much as buckling springs but without the noise... I guess topre is next step for me, if only it didn't cost a fortune only to find out I may not like it. Such difficult choices

I recommend getting a KûL ES-87 or WASD Code TKL with Clears with orings installed. Great quality, very good tactility, a lot quieter than buckling springs and a lot cheaper than a Realforce. And you can change the keycaps to change the feel and look easily. The orings help on the bottom out.

Or if you really want to try out Topre, I recommend the Novatouch. You can at least change the keycaps on that (since it has MX compatible stems) and I've heard that SA profile feel fantastic on it.

[Sencha]

After using 60% boards since the launch of the original poker, I can't go back to TKL. Mouse position at my low sensitivity feels amazing and I don't miss anything dedicated on the TKL for day to day use. TKL just feel like full boards to me know with a less useful section I rarely use.

[sethk_]

After using 60% boards since the launch of the original poker, I can't go back to TKL. Mouse position at my low sensitivity feels amazing and I don't miss anything dedicated on the TKL for day to day use. TKL just feel like full boards to me know with a less useful section I rarely use.

I honestly haven't changed my mouse positioning since I have started using 60% boards, which has been for 4 months. It feels too awkward.