Author Topic: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!  (Read 7234 times)

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Offline chyros

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Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 06:38:00 »
So I got this AT101 last week (old logo, black Alps, GYUM97SK). I already had a typical AT101W (new logo, black Alps, GYUM90SK). The 101W was NIB, the 101 I got last week was used, but in outstanding condition, so they should both be quite representative.

I'm very familiar with the feel of my AT101W, and could pick out its feel and sound instantly. I've been using this old logo version for a few days now, and although it also has black Alps, IT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. I noticed this immediately when I started using it and have found more differences as I went along. I'm using them more or less side-by-side; one at work, the other at home.

The 101 is noticeably quieter or sounds more dampened (more of a "thock"), although it does have the same plungers and in fact all parts except the spring are identical. The sound of the 101 is probably best described as the sound of White Alps without the click - in reality, what you would expect of Black Alps, really. The well-known, distinct sound of the 101W is quite different from this, though. The caps are also the same thickness, so I have no idea where this difference in sound comes from. The 101 Alps also feel a little smoother and more linear compared to the 101W Alps. The 101 uses pine Alps, the 101W uses bamboo ones.

Anyone have any idea where this comes from and whether this phenomenon of different Black Alps is a known thing? The wiki doesn't list anything on it.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 07:48:43 »
Pine tree/bamboo/plum tree (Sho Chiku Bai) is a Japanese grading system. The specific reason for the use of "pine", "bamboo" and "plum" by MouseFan is to indicate his belief that the product quality dropped with the changes corresponding to bamboo and plum. The terms "pine" and "bamboo" will be confusing to everyone else, but I simply adopted the terms that MouseFan and Sandy use.

Pine black Alps are pretty rare though, so most people have never experienced them, likewise cream tactile. It would stand to reason that they would feel better, though.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 08:16:26 »
Hmmm, ok, that explains it a bit. I'm still wondering why these older black Alps feel different (I would say nicer) though, as mechanically I can honestly not see the difference other than the spring.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 09:26:34 »
With Alps SKCL/SKCM, there are well-documented visually-observable changes: height of the switchplate, indentation of the actuator leaf nub, redesign of the slits, reversible and non-reversible sliders, removal of slits, and a wide variety of numbering and branding forms suggesting multiple factories and reduced quality control. This gives reasonable credibility to the claims that the switch feel degraded as a result of product alterations. In fact, SKCM White was recorded as SKCMAQ in the 1994 catalogue (shown as pine, I think — Thunderbird's message search seems to be hopelessly broken in recent versions), but SKCMCQ in a later data sheet that shows bamboo white alongside pine yellow (SKCLAR), which hints that bamboo switches were considered separate products (with a suggestion that the Far East contract manufacturers switched to bamboo first).

Vintage Cherry MX Black is much worse, as the chief reported visual difference is the Cherry logo. In fact, the switch contacts were redesigned at some point (with some clone switches copying the original design), but whether that has any correspondence with vintage/modern blacks, I don't know. Lots of people consider the better feel of vintage blacks to be a myth, but it does stand to reason that Cherry would have been looking for ways to cut costs to compete with the clone manufacturers in the Far East, and to compete with other high-end manufacturers, just as Alps would have had to. Chicony in particular were known for frequently retooling to incompatible switches, presumably to whatever cost less at the time — Cherry MX, Yali, Alps, Himake, Futaba and Mitsumi having all been used at some point. Some FK-2001 keyboards used an Omron switch never seen before or since — similar to the B3G-S, but smaller.

With Alps, the first significant change in feel was from SKCM Blue to SKCM White — the latter doesn't feel as soft, clean or smooth. Thus far, nobody has actually proven any differences in feel. Due to variations in degradation, I assume you'd need to measure lots of keyboards and average out the force graphs. SPARC's graph showing white, blue and black depicts a horrible force curve for black Alps that matches how it feels, but I don't know if that's actually bamboo black or not; blue and white have different graphs, but the roughness of the graphs suggests that no averaging was done, and from experience I can say that white Alps can degrade terribly.

To prove the cause of the changes, you'd need to measure the springs (turns, length, wire gauge etc), analyse the plastics, and so forth. Alps used dry lubricant with the older switches, that seemed to stop, but nothing's proven yet. There are a lot of subtleties, such as Matias quiet click switches having a white slider instead of the intended orange after the orange dye was found to interfere with the frictional properties of the plastic and thereby the feel of the switch. You get a better click out of a Matias click switch if you substitute in an OA2 click leaf, that seems to look the same.

It's a huge combination of subtleties — steel composition and processing, metal thickness, plastic selection, part shape, keycap weight etc. Rubber domes aren't inherently bad, but their poor reputation comes in part due to their correlation with cost cutting: the kind of companies who would replace discrete switch modules with domes and membranes aren't going to care much if anything about how the switches feel. Companies with a good reputation (e.g. Topre and Key Tronic) still care about the feel even when using domes. Likewise, mechanical switches require a lot of knowledge and experimentation to get right, and it's a balance that's easy to interfere with.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 10:27:30 »
Very nicely put, that makes perfect sense. I can definitely vouch for these older Blacks to feel and sound different, and IMO, better, than the new ones. This would contradict my original suspicion that GYUM97SK is pretty much identical to GYUM90SK apart from the logo (this one also has a steel block in the case, seemingly only to add weight). Interesting.
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Offline Altis

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 10:37:49 »
I have an AT101 that actually feels pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the sound... it's so hollow/plasticky. Very different than my other alp-style boards.

I wonder if part of the difference you are experiencing is due to case? I know I've changed the sound quite a bit on some MX boards by small changes within the case.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 11:04:29 »
Yes, in fact the keyboard vibrates more than it does on my AT101W, even though the case is much heavier due to that steel plate. The rest of the case and mounting plate appear to be the same, though. I'm sure the difference in sound is at least partly due to that though.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 11:09:56 »
I have an AT101 that actually feels pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the sound... it's so hollow/plasticky. Very different than my other alp-style boards.

Alps (FCC ID beginning with GYI) or Silitek (FCC ID beginning with GYU)?
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Offline Altis

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 13:17:36 »
I have an AT101 that actually feels pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the sound... it's so hollow/plasticky. Very different than my other alp-style boards.

Alps (FCC ID beginning with GYI) or Silitek (FCC ID beginning with GYU)?

GYU with new logo and dyesub caps.

You can hear the plasticky/hollow sound in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qf9zCB-8U

I wish I could find a way to make it sound less like that. For example, like this older one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwwpPiokOao

So much crisper, less like hollow plastic blocks.
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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:08:03 »
If someone wants to try “pine” black Alps switches, old NeXT keyboards are a good source. They’re fairly similar to salmon Alps switches, IMO, and both have a somewhat irregular force curve (judging by feel; I haven’t measured precisely). I like the earlier orange switches better than either, but switch condition makes a bigger difference than switch type. Orange Alps switches that have gotten filled with grit or had their tactile leaves bent out of shape are less pleasant than NIB black Alps switches.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:12:44 by jacobolus »

Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:38:36 »
You can hear the plasticky/hollow sound in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qf9zCB-8U

I wish I could find a way to make it sound less like that. For example, like this older one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwwpPiokOao
That's it, that's EXACTLY what my two keyboards sound like. As you can hear, the sound is completely different. I probably prefer the older black Alps, but I really don't dislike the later black Alps sound at all, I find it pretty nice actually. It has a certain presence to it. Best Alps sound I've heard so far would have to be SKCM white, though, they're fantastic IMO.

EDIT: I added a note about this difference to my AT101 / AT101W comparison video as I talk about the GYUM97SK in it, too.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:44:01 by chyros »
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Offline Special K

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:03:20 »
I have an AT101 that actually feels pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the sound... it's so hollow/plasticky. Very different than my other alp-style boards.

Alps (FCC ID beginning with GYI) or Silitek (FCC ID beginning with GYU)?

GYU with new logo and dyesub caps.

You can hear the plasticky/hollow sound in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qf9zCB-8U

I wish I could find a way to make it sound less like that. For example, like this older one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwwpPiokOao

So much crisper, less like hollow plastic blocks.

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed that the original AT101's with black alps would sound that much different from the AT101W's with black alps.

It looks like I need to add yet another keyboard to my "to try" list.

So just to clarify: which model numbers/logo combinations have the "plasticy" sound, and which ones have the "nice" sound?

Old logo AT101, GYUM97SK: "nice" sound
New logo AT101, GYUM97SK: "plasticy" sound
New logo AT101W: "plasticy" sound
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:34:38 by Special K »
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Offline Special K

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:38:14 »
You can hear the plasticky/hollow sound in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qf9zCB-8U

I wish I could find a way to make it sound less like that. For example, like this older one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwwpPiokOao
That's it, that's EXACTLY what my two keyboards sound like. As you can hear, the sound is completely different. I probably prefer the older black Alps, but I really don't dislike the later black Alps sound at all, I find it pretty nice actually. It has a certain presence to it. Best Alps sound I've heard so far would have to be SKCM white, though, they're fantastic IMO.

EDIT: I added a note about this difference to my AT101 / AT101W comparison video as I talk about the GYUM97SK in it, too.

From your first post, you have:

typical AT101W (new logo, black Alps, GYUM90SK)
AT101 (old logo, black Alps, GYUM97SK)

Just to clarify, your AT101W sounds like the first video Altis linked (also an AT101W), and your AT101 sounds like the second video Altis linked?
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 19:32:43 »
New logo, "plasticky" sound, old logo, "good" sound.
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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 13:17:30 »
New logo, "plasticky" sound, old logo, "good" sound.

It seems to be the case. Interestingly, the old logo AT101s came with either salmon alps or black alps (salmon being the oldest of the lot, AFAIK).

Old logo black alps seem to still have the good sound, as well as the salmon alps, while the new logo black alps are the ones that sound hollow and plasticky.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 14:23:59 »
New logo, "plasticky" sound, old logo, "good" sound.

It seems to be the case. Interestingly, the old logo AT101s came with either salmon alps or black alps (salmon being the oldest of the lot, AFAIK).

Old logo black alps seem to still have the good sound, as well as the salmon alps, while the new logo black alps are the ones that sound hollow and plasticky.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I should stress that it's really not just the sound, the feeling is also very different.

Daniel, think this should go into the wiki on the AT101 and SKCM Black?
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 16:13:16 »
The Dell AT101 page needs quite a bit of work. There aren't many photos, for example, and the details of the various variants should probably be listed in a table for brevity. Apparently the very earliest production runs had double-shot keycaps, but I don't have any proof of this (it was something I read in an e-mail from Sandy, but I don't have any photos). Then there's the AT103 (very briefly mentioned), but you can't use these photos as the keycaps aren't the originals:

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/dell47444.html

There are also no photos of the rubber dome versions.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 18:45:21 »
I can make some photos of my AT101 and AT101W if that would help, they're both in excellent condition so good photo material.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 19:23:03 »
There's no end of things on the wiki that need doing!
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Offline Altis

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 22:10:50 »
I can make some photos of my AT101 and AT101W if that would help, they're both in excellent condition so good photo material.

Would you be up to taking a video of the sound of the two side by side if you get a chance?
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 03:04:21 »
Yes. I'll have to bring in my AT101W from work though. But I'll post it when I do :) .
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Offline chyros

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:43:43 »
There you go, as requested: the GYUM90SK v GYUM97SK sound comparison video. Both keyboards are in outstanding condition, so they should reflect the switches they have very well. Hope you enjoy!

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Offline Special K

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:57:14 »
There you go, as requested: the GYUM90SK v GYUM97SK sound comparison video. Both keyboards are in outstanding condition, so they should reflect the switches they have very well. Hope you enjoy!


Did you mean to post a link?
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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 22 March 2015, 19:17:10 »
Did you mean to post a link?
He did post the video, and you even quoted it! The combination of your browser + geekhack’s forum software is apparently busted for videos. Link:

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 17:01:39 »
I have an AT101 that actually feels pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the sound... it's so hollow/plasticky. Very different than my other alp-style boards.

Alps (FCC ID beginning with GYI) or Silitek (FCC ID beginning with GYU)?

GYU with new logo and dyesub caps.

You can hear the plasticky/hollow sound in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0qf9zCB-8U

I wish I could find a way to make it sound less like that. For example, like this older one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwwpPiokOao

So much crisper, less like hollow plastic blocks.

I'm a bit confused. You referred to your AT101 here, but your video says it's an AT101W. Maybe I'm just being dense?
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Offline EscapeVelocity

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 17:54:54 »
Hey Chryos, I really like your videos!  :thumbsup

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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 18:11:06 »
Hey Chryos, I really like your videos!  :thumbsup
Cheers mate, glad you like them :) . There will be another one this weekend :) . I try to do one at least every other week.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 June 2015, 18:19:30 by chyros »
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Re: Dell AT101 and AT101W - different black Alps?!
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 18:39:46 »
I'm a bit confused. You referred to your AT101 here, but your video says it's an AT101W. Maybe I'm just being dense?

"W" means that it has Windows keys, ie post~1995
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