Author Topic: The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?  (Read 17632 times)

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Offline spremino

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 02:44:54 »
Quote from: joniho;118239
The three that most appeal to me (in no order) are the Kinesis Contoured...


The Kinesis Contoured has uncomfortable function keys. The real deal is the Maltron Ergonomic 3D, but really expensive. There was these cheaper (licensed) replica:

http://www.teleprint.com/

but they don't sell it anymore.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline urlwolf

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 08:51:18 »
I meant mutron, sorry. It applies to any expensive ergonomic keyboard.

I got a kinesis coming in the mail (due to sheer incompetence of the place I got it from, it may be in an infinite-loop-black-hole of customs). I hope I can adapt; I can remap keys with autohotkey if needed.
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline MsKeyboard

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 10:36:32 »
I actually have a Kinesis Advantage keyboard in my rotation, and once you get used to the layout it is quite efficient and comfortable.

The discussion about ergonomics on this forum is very interesting, and while solutions tend to be specific to individual needs, not every keyboard is going to please the masses.  Webwit loves his Datahand and makes very clear and useful descriptions on the benefits, but as the market has shown it was just TOOO far out there to be universally accepted.

I believe that the manufacturers are designing products that do what they say, which is provide ergonomic relief, but each keyboard or mouse also has to be useful.  Anyone can walk up and type out a letter fairly efficiently on a Kisesis or Contour keyboard, but try you luck on a Datahand or Maltron.

Of course, YMMV.............Later

Offline rdh

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 10:43:12 »
Quote from: webwit;118388
I think a prerequisite of an ergonomic board is that it is split and adjustable, otherwise it's just like a one-size fits-all ergonomic shoe.


Maybe so, but that doesn't mean it's not an improvement over normal keyboards.

Anyway, my feeling is that computer ergonomics is only partially understood and involves a lot of factors, not just hand spacing.  My girlfriend was able to get rid of her wrist pain, not by getting rid of the crappy rubber dome Dell keyboard, but instead by adjusting the height of her desk and switching to a 3M Ergonomic Mouse.

I find that thing clunky to use and ugly, but it helps her.

Quote from: webwit;118388
The DataHand has 88% less finger movement than a traditional board. The down keys are the fastest, the north keys the slowest (they go like a toggle switch). It's not that bad, they used to sell it to speed typists ;) The north key is longer than the other directional keys. This means you hit it when you move your finger slightly up/north. It's very nice and effortless.


The Datahand is also very hard to find, and much more expensive than the Kinesis.   Which is not to say I don't want one...
at home: IBM "Space Saving" Model M
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Offline joniho

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 12:17:54 »
Well according to their site they're only selling from their reserve now; they've stopped production.

I'm going home to get a big pot!
(my attempt, having only just watched that sketch)

Offline Input Nirvana

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 13:15:08 »
I agree that an ergonomic keyboard should be split and adjustable, or it's not very ergonomic except for the few people it "fits".

Regardind the Kinesis Contoured Advantage, as an FYI:

I just spoke with Kinesis about splitting a Contoured Advantage into 2 halves. Several people have done it successfully. I'm going to purchase a few connectors from them and take my Contoured to our technicians in the next several weeks. A small project box is needed for the main controller board, and 2  30" extension cables need to be made. A case modification will need to be done once complete.

A split Contoured Advantage, the next best thing to the elusive Datahand.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline itlnstln

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #56 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 13:35:53 »
On the one hand, solutions like the DataHand are ingenious and well worth the money spent on them.  On the other hand, many people don't have the money to spend on said solutions and compromise on a middle ground - something like the Kinesis or MS Natural or what-have-you.
 
Now, I think webwit mentioned this a long time ago, but if you really need the pain relief, and you have no other career choice than to type, then price really isn't (or shouldn't) be a barrier to obtaining a better input device.  I also think, though, that the relief from one of these lesser solutions shouldn't be ignored even if they are not optimal like the DataHand or the uTron.


Offline itlnstln

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 13:36:54 »
Wow, after reading my last post, I don't think I really said anything.
 
Fail.


Offline JBert

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 14:17:13 »
Quote from: MsKeyboard;118435
The discussion about ergonomics on this forum is very interesting, and while solutions tend to be specific to individual needs, not every keyboard is going to please the masses.  Webwit loves his Datahand and makes very clear and useful descriptions on the benefits, but as the market has shown it was just TOOO far out there to be universally accepted.
Well, it is a brilliant design, but I think the cost and the looks killed it - not to say you need to learn to type again.
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Offline Bruce

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 14:34:42 »
I have to jump on the Maltron bandwagon here.

We do sell them - but mainly they sell themselves. They have a great reputation amongst those who know more about ergonomics than I do (I have no medical training). Most of the sales we make are when they have been 'prescribed' to typists whose careers are threatened, sometimes already off sick with RSI related issues, and have sought expert advice.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we never get them back. People want to keep them because they fix their problem, and they don't break down. Maltron service them 100% so it is a keyboard for life.

The E Type was the first and is still, to my mind, the best ergonomic keyboard. All others are pale imitations. (Pretty nice car too).

The man designed them in his shed, and then manufactured them there. He compromised very little on ergonomics. That's why it looks wierd and is so expensive. I think the biggest problem was to mount the keys on the curve as it is. There is a hand soldered mesh of copper wires underneath joining all those Cherry MX switches up, and this could not be automated.

There is a trackball model too.
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=24
I agree that mice are the growing problem nowadays.

People have a number of factors in mind when choosing keyboards but if it is 100% ergonomics, for use at a desk, Maltron take some beating.

Before buying I would recomend a good root around on http://www.maltron.com/index.html
There is a wealth of info on there - well beyond my knowledge.

Offline Bruce

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 15:42:42 »
I know. Fair cop.
But that is my honest opinion.

Offline Rajagra

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 15:50:28 »
Quote from: webwit;118529
I like to try one once :)
So.. UK shop says UK rsi medicine men advice UK invented ergo board which is the best ever made anywhere? And you happen to sell those?

We were the first to mass produce toothbrushes too, we get no credit for that either. Oh, no, just ridiculous stereotypes...


Offline Bruce

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 15:59:42 »
What happens in an ergoboard Deathmatch?
Isn't there some EU law we'd be breaking?  ;)

Offline Rajagra

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:01:12 »
Quote from: webwit;118540
Stereotype? You air a sci-fi show about people with silly teeth, called Dr. Who.

Well, we may as well join in the fun...

Offline timw4mail

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:09:22 »
Quote from: Rajagra;118536
We were the first to mass produce toothbrushes too, we get no credit for that either. Oh, no, just ridiculous stereotypes...

Considering the number of simultaneous inventions that seem to have happened, its not too surprising that one country would try to claim it first over another. According to Wikipedia, Polypropylene, a very common plastic, was actually independently invented about 9 times.
Pointing devices- CH Products DT255 (With Lapis Lazuli ball), Razer Salmosa, Logitech MX400
Buckling Springs - IBM Model M 1391401 (1987) & IBM Model F AT
Cherry MX Blue Switches - iOne Scorpius M10 "otaku"(2009) & OCN-branded Ducky keyboard
Cherry MX Brown Switches - Compaq MX11800 & Cherry G80-8963LUBUS-2 (MX8100) & Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless)

Cherry MX Black Switches -  US Micro Products Metal Keyboard USMP-KX065-TB-USB-A
Fake Cherry MX White Switches - Qtronix Scorpius 32 keypad &  Chicony KB-5191
White round SMK Switches - Gold VTech label keyboard
SMK blue Monterrey Switches - Chicony KB-5181
Damped tactile ALPS - Apple AEKII
Blue NEC Switches - NEC APC-H412


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Offline itlnstln

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:19:13 »
Ouch.  I guess he won't be using any of those foot pedal keyboards.


Offline Input Nirvana

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:20:46 »
Does anyone think remapping can be added to a Maltron? We'll do it if it's reasonably possible, AND split the darn thing into 2 pieces (losing 4 keys in the process).
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline joniho

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:29:31 »
Quote from: itlnstln;118554
Ouch.  I guess he won't be using any of those foot pedal keyboards.


Beat me to it!

Offline itlnstln

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 16 September 2009, 16:44:38 »
Quote from: ripster;118563
Hmm... I think you got the victor swapped. Everybody knows Darth Maul is a traditional Dutch name.

Oh, I just saw the standard-layout keyboard in his hand (minus a few letters, for some reason; Hawaiian layout, perhaps).


Offline JBert

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 17 September 2009, 12:33:17 »
Just for the record: an Ergodex DX1 the size of a full-fledged keyboard with extra keys would be interesting.

At least you could prototype your keyboard layout before making some expensive custom keyboard.
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


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Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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Offline urlwolf

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 17:43:48 »
Just got the kinesis and I'm very impressed...
keyboards: Cherry G80-3494- cherry reds | filco majestytouch - cherry browns | kinesis contour - cherry browns | cherry G80 - 1800 cherry blacks.
mice: filco touchpad | logitech G9x | wowpen joy | kensington orbit trackball | zalman fpsgun | intellimouse v1 | logitech rx1500

Offline alexlzl

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 12 November 2009, 19:47:02 »
As a programmer, I have suffered RSI for quite many years, and went through so many keyboards/mice and here are some experience I have to share:

- Kinesis Advantage is by far the only keeper. I struggled many months (ordered and returned once) in order to get used to it. I had the similar fear: weird arrow keys, small ESC and Function keys. Turns out those are easy to get over with problems (took me months though):

   - just map ESC to Caps Lock,
   - if you prefer you can map arrow keys to one side (like vi style). And you really don't use Function key that often anyway (or get the Pro version, its function keys are bit bigger)
   - stick a touchpad (like ergotouchpad.com) in the middle of the keyboard to save SOME movement to mouse
   - foot pedal design is genius on Kinesis (get the traditional pedal not the fancy USB ones). Traditional pedal is cheaper, can be mapped as a key, there is no driver required (I use linux).
   - get use to the Cherry Brown, you don't need to bottom the key at all
   - I still have some pain here and there, but seems Kinesis is doing alright. Also I am learning Colemak now.

- GoldTouch: used for 4 years, was swearing by it (bought 5). Eventually the membrane keys gave up, and once I typed on Cherry, no going back.

- Typematrix: has to cramp my hands on such a small space is crazy. Recent layout is totally crazy

- Realforce/HHKB Pro: love the keys, however my wrists can't stand them for more than one hour
Using: Kinesis Contoured (Cherry Brown)
Own:  Realforce 86UK
Wish: Ergo layout Realforce

Offline microsoft windows

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 12 November 2009, 19:48:28 »
If I had the money, I'd love an M15. An adjustable split-ergonomic keyboard with buckling springs would be the best. If only they had trackballs though...
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Offline lmnop

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #73 on: Thu, 12 November 2009, 20:13:06 »
how many ergonomic keyboards use cherry switches?

I miss my Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard I loved the posture and speed it gave me. I am using a Das Ultimate Professional so I have been thinking about a ergo transplant and I find the biggest obstacle is the keycaps for example on a ergo keyboard the spacebars can't be replaced and I don't think any company will fabricate new ones for such a small order.

Offline Vinz

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 05:34:33 »
One keyboard that's hardly ever mentioned here in ergonomic discussions but deserves to be is the Comfort Keyboard: http://comfortkeyboard.com/keyboards_comfort.html

It's adjustability is far better than any other keyboard I've seen. It's main drawback for users of this forum is that it has fairly horrible rubber dome keys. I've always thought the bastard child of a Kinesis and a CK would be the perfect ergonomic keyboard.
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Offline spremino

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 07:32:00 »
Quote from: webwit;132082

Best:
DataHand Pro II


The DataHand indeed seems a real deal as ergonomic keyboards go.

I'd use an ergonomic keyboard, but having to type on a laptop half the time does not help things. Therefore, I currently use a standard keyboard with a few adjustments:

- shift the right hand one column to the right;
- use a customized ergonomic layout;
- testing usage of a Japanese mechanical keyboard (FILCO FKBN91M) because the shorter space bar allows for an easy reach of modifiers by means of the thumbs;
- use a trackball with my left hand.

I don't experience pain in my hands anymore.
A long space bar... what a waste of space!

Offline konz

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 07:45:33 »
By the way, rumor has it that Datahand is currently producing a new batch ...

Offline alexlzl

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #77 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 12:30:00 »
I am 100% intrigued by the Datahand, however it is such a turn-off by their ridiculous 90-days warranty for such an expensive board, also the 15% restocking fee with 15 day return period.

I think the reason that most of the "ergo" stuff are super expensive is simply many big companies treat RSI as work-related injury and thus insurance companies are usually paying the bill (it is still much cheaper than paying for therapy). That also explains a bit why they may not have high return rate (why bother?).

Couple more comments:
- tried and hated Kinesis Freestyle (it is a piece of crap rubber dome, shame on Kinesis)
- was interested in Safetype, now guess I will pass
Using: Kinesis Contoured (Cherry Brown)
Own:  Realforce 86UK
Wish: Ergo layout Realforce

Offline microsoft windows

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #78 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 16:45:18 »
I want that keyboard.
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Offline ch_123

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #79 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 17:10:20 »
In my books, a numpad-less keyboard is as ergonomic as I need.

Offline ch_123

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #80 on: Fri, 13 November 2009, 17:30:34 »
Ok, one with a decent layout and good swithces... But nonetheless, I have never had any RSI/CT type problems arising for using a regular board.

Offline Buckling_Summer

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #81 on: Wed, 16 December 2009, 18:56:29 »
Maltron or Kinesis?
PRESENT POSSESSIONS:
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Offline Input Nirvana

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #82 on: Thu, 17 December 2009, 21:46:33 »
I vote Kinesis.

You have the keys from the middle field on the Maltron on the Kinesis (it's mostly the 10 key anyhow). The Kinesis is half the cost, has foot pedal options, is macro-programable, and is easier to maneuver around for non-traditional desk/chair usage. The rubber function keys are a bit of a bummer, but again, they are usually not frequent use.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline ricercar

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #83 on: Fri, 18 December 2009, 23:28:41 »
I paid for two Kinesis, and one Maltron. I use the Kinesis.
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Offline microsoft windows

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #84 on: Sat, 19 December 2009, 11:56:51 »
If I saw an M15 at a tag sale for cheap, I'd buy that. Options by IBM is the way to go!
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Offline watduzhkstand4

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The ergonomic keyboard you would buy?
« Reply #85 on: Sat, 19 December 2009, 14:06:31 »
Quote from: timw4mail;115904
Personally, I'd love a keyboard like a Maltron, I just wouldn't want to have to pay for it.


you just took the words out of my mouth
KEYBOARDS
Cherry Blue *Filco Tenkeyless w/ blank keys* w/ red ESC key thanks to Megarat
Cherry Red Noppoo Choc Mini
IBM Model M 1391401 12/15/88
Siig Minitouch w/ White Alps


SOLD
HHKB Pro 2 white w/ blank keys red ESC key and blank WASD keys
HHKB L-2
Cherry Brown Compaq mx11800
Dell AT101W
Cherry Red Leopold 104-key Otaku FC500RR/ABN