Krytox Lube Kits R3 in development

[mkawa]

Folks!

I'm preparing a batch of new Krytox switch lubricant formulas. I have a new set of formulations in mind, but I wanted to solicit for user feedback as well. The general impression I've gotten from people on R1 and R2 formulas is that:

1. Thicker formulations are preferred. This is makes sense. Thicker lube is less likely to migrate, provides more static friction, and is easier to apply.

2. R2's spring lube is good for more than just springs. I've tested this lube on topre sliders and like it quite a bit. It sounds like people are also using them on clears (notable ergo clears).

3. There is some confusion on how to apply the switch lubricants. I've generally left it up to the switch building wizards to instruct on this, but a video is on my TODO. Unfortunately my TODO list is very long.

4. What is thin lube for? linear switches. That's the intent anyway.

Currently, the changes I plan to make are:

1. A slightly modified spring lube is going to become the new thick formula.

2. The thin formula is going to get thinner. The idea behind thin is to smooth the sliding action of long switch faces (blacks, reds). Once lubed, new black sliders should feel somewhat like "vintage black" sliders.

3. Topre-specific formula and kit. Topre sliders are unique in that: the lube absolutely cannot migrate, and static friction is dominant, since the actuation force depends only on the membrane. I've found that increasing the static friction allows one to better feel the membrane buckle point, especially on 55g domes.

4. your suggestions

[SixtyLife]

excited for this as the thick formula seems sold out everywhere (mk.com, techkeys, originative).

I have a couple questions.. ran into this little blurb written by someone at elitekeyboards.com:

"Pricey Krytox GPL20x lubes are a bad match for keyswitches (don't tell the guys at geekhack!). These lubes are intended for closed systems or for applications where oil is periodically reapplied to the initially applied lubricant, because the Krytox oil in the lubricant separates from the PTFE solids if the system isn't sealed or doesn't constantly mix the lubricant (which reflows the solids). Sure, it's great lube for high speed bearings and extreme temperature environments, but keyswitches are open systems at room temperature and the oil will soon separate and pool or drip out the bottom of the switch leaving you with gummier solids that no longer flow and just attract dust. We did tests a couple years ago with Krytox out of curiosity, and after the oil separates off a few days or a week later, the difference from an un-lubed switch is mostly negligible."

any thoughts on what he's saying? Is there any validity to it or is it just marketing BS to sell their own "mechlube"?

Thanks!

[mkawa]

sorry, it's early so this won't be as clear as i'd like it to be. i'll clarify on this a bit more tonight.

this is patently false. the greases are specifically designed to not migrate, even in very high temperature and pressure situations. this also holds true for the formulations i use. the ptfe concentration in thick formulations is extremely high, and contains enough ptfe and binder to stay in place. further, pfpe oils (ie, krytox 10x) are specifically designed such that they will not migrate or outgas even in ridiculously extreme situations.

finally, the friction modifiers inherent to pfpe and ptfe combinations mean that extremely small amounts of lubricant will have the same effective friction modulus as a large amount of every other oil and/or oil + ptfe lubricant on the market (note that so-called 'dry' ptfe lubes are just very light petroleum based oils/solvents with some low concentration ptfe particulate. those are even worse, the oil immediately evaporates, leaving the ptfe to fall off the surface).

anyway, there is no science behind this allegation. it's FUD, plain and simple.

[strict]

Will there simply be a "Topre blend" or will there be different blends recommended for different weights? i.e. Extra thick for 55g and thick for 45g? I've been debating lubing my 45g board but I'm still undecided if thick or extra thick is the way to go. I've been super pleased with how Extra thick feels on my 55g.

[mkawa]

oh, and i'd like to note that the silicone and lithium lubricants the others *ahem* vend are extremely inexpensive and have ridiculously high profit margins. if i were out to make money, there is absolutely no way that i would vend what is _literally_ the most expensive lubricant on the market at a price that consistently loses me money.

what really bothers me about these allegations is not the baseless attack on krytox and the complete ignorance of materials science, but that the point of the attack is to protect a high margin product by a vendor. there is _absolutely_ no reasons for EK's statement except to increase profit at the expense of the community.

ps, lithium and silicone based greases separate at a much higher rate than krytox greases. same with "superlube", the petroleum-oil-with-some-ptfe in it. further, superlube and other greases that use petroleum oils as their bases degrade plastics over time.

[mkawa]

Will there simply be a "Topre blend" or will there be different blends recommended for different weights? i.e. Extra thick for 55g and thick for 45g? I've been debating lubing my 45g board but I'm still undecided if thick or extra thick is the way to go. I've been super pleased with how Extra thick feels on my 55g.

i've run my tests on 55g only. i also have a novatouch i'm going to test on, but it should be the same for both. it's quite important for topre lube to be very very "dry" (ie, low concentration of oils) because the sliders are exposed. a lubricant that collects foreign matter without enough slippery solids to contain the foreign matter will eventually start grinding away both lubed faces.

in fact, the topre lube is going to going to have much more special sauce than normal. (my base formulations are already custom made by dupont, but i also have a desk full of labware for additional processing steps..)

[SixtyLife]

oh, and i'd like to note that the silicone and lithium lubricants the others *ahem* vend are extremely inexpensive and have ridiculously high profit margins. if i were out to make money, there is absolutely no way that i would vend what is _literally_ the most expensive lubricant on the market at a price that consistently loses me money.

what really bothers me about these allegations is not the baseless attack on krytox and the complete ignorance of materials science, but that the point of the attack is to protect a high margin product by a vendor. there is _absolutely_ no reasons for EK's statement except to increase profit at the expense of the community.

ps, lithium and silicone based greases separate at a much higher rate than krytox greases. same with "superlube", the petroleum-oil-with-some-ptfe in it. further, superlube and other greases that use petroleum oils as their bases degrade plastics over time.

Thanks for the knowledge drop mkawa... that's some **** move by EK. thanks for setting this up too, really appreciate it Looking forward to R3!

[greath]

Mkawa,

Have you read this thread?

Nubbinator is going to be reviewing a lot of different lubes. If you have something ready would you consider sending him some of what you're concocting?

[mkawa]

interesting! actually, i have been trying to suss out the best lube mix for linears for a while now (really, since i started this whole thing). i dislike linear stems with a passion though, so it's difficult for me to get a feel for what makes linears better (for me? MAKE THEM TACTILE DUH) or worse.

[mkawa]

heading out to retailers on monday

[Karura]

Can you elaborate on 3, the topre slider lube again? You mentioned that the thicker/spring lube is great for the topre sliders, but at the same time, the lube should not be able to migrate.

From my uneducated guess, would thin lube migrate less, since it is less thick and less obstructive? So would the topre specific lube be thick?

Also would be appreciative if you could give some numbers as to how much % each lube is thicker/thinner than each other, for the different runs, would help

Cheers

[mkawa]

i don't have the hardware to measure dynamic viscosity, or friction modification (although PLEASE PLEASE contact me if you have access to a rheometer!). instead i do a lot of staring at the movement of the oils and solids over time. it's fascinating, but literally like watching paint dry, by the way.

i prefer topre switches, so i've done the most long-term testing myself on topre switches (i have used a volunteer "golden finger" tester for cherry-compatibles..). the amount of migration and the effect of migration in this application depends on a surprisingly large number of variables. for example, if you apply krytox grease alone, it significantly increases tactility, but in the long term, the solids actually migrate downward onto the domes. even worse, the grease collects grime and migrates them down to the pcb with the solids.

so i tried very a very thin layer of thin oil with no ptfe (hence no solids). the deal is that the very thin oil does migrate, but it quickly reaches an equilibrium layer thickness that is probably in the 10s to hundreds of polymer chains thick, at which point it stops migrating and just kind of sits there. this layer of oil is so thin and so slick that large grime particles don't tend to stick to it, and very small particles probably end up safely suspended in the oil. however, the tradeoff to this is that you lose tactility.

i've been trying to get the best of both worlds with some recent batches. i use thicker oil to suspect the ptfe particles so that the layer is thick enough and contains enough solids to increase tactility, but is still slick enough to stop large dirt particles from sticking and migrating, while suspending ptfe-grease-sized particles in the oil. the mixtures that are about the consistency of what i used to call "spring lube" seem to be making progress towards that. i've also been trying to increase the percentage of ptfe solids in the same oil solution without the solids migrating -- ctrlalt is receiving this experimental batch, while techkeys is getting a large batch of spring lube.

but yah, i wish i had a rheometer and a frequency controllable dynamometer for keyboard switches. i've been able to fund a few small surplus lab equipment purchases to make mix and dispense easier with krytox funds, but i already barely break even on the material, so i doubt i'll ever have access to any nice test equipment.

[heedpantsnow]

Honestly, my only suggestion would be a "cheat sheet" maybe on the order page.  I and a few other GH'ers that I've talked to find it hard to keep all of that straight in our heads, and the search terms come up with a huge number of results (and many opinions), and you're only buying lube once in a blue moon and you just forget what's for what.  So a quick reference that says something like:

Recommended lube:
Cherry MX Red: Krytox thick for sliders, (optional)extra thin for springs, (optional) extra thick for stabilizer wires
Cherry MX Ergo Clear:...
...

[mkawa]

i defer to the experts on recommendations, but i'd love to link to a couple of well-maintained review threads from reseller product pages. every time i've designed a formula for a specific application though, people end up using it for some completely different application (with probably better results). at this point, i figure that i'm here to work with the supplier, and come up with clever ways to process and distribute the material.

in particular, what's fun for me is to receive a concrete problem and then attempt to solve it via a mixture of pestering suppliers, experimenting with labware and breaking things^H^H^H^H^ (i no longer try to break things in the lab now that i have to pay for everything in the lab...). for example, i was told that "new blacks" don't feel like "vintage blacks" -- note that i'm not sure what either of these things are, but i do know how an mx switch works, what it's made of, etc. -- i ask why, get a loose intuitive description, and then send over a couple of different materials to see if any of them can turn a new black into a vintage black. the material that won that fight was sold as "thin mix" in the last batch, by the way.

anyway, the reason people have trouble keeping it straight is because it's all experimental. my understanding is that people ended up using the much thicker "thick mix" from the last batch for both linears and clickless tactiles (ergo clears, i think?). there are also now 10 times the mx-compatible switch varieties as there were a couple of years ago, and all of the non-cherry variants use slightly different plastics, mold tooling, and metal parts. when it comes to using a ridiculously high-tech lubricant in an application like this, the qualitative measure of the end result is extremely personal.

to that end, what i've been doing is working with everyone along the food chain, from supplier to the resellers, to optimize packaging and cost to make as many varieties of mixtures as easy to obtain as possible. hopefully people like what i've come up with for the most recent batch. if not, please chime in and give me feedback.

which, speaking of, reminds me that i owe nubbinator some samples.

[mkawa]

oh, and i don't mention this much anymore, but krytox is a freaking miracle lubricant for nearly every other application that you want friction modification in. heck, i oil my leather products with it, have used a light coat in lieu of a phone case, and recently i even made a lightly weather resistant raincoat into a nearly waterproof one with a very carefully applied coat of light krytox oil.

to recall, krytox branded materials are:

insoluble. organic solvents are ineffective on krytox oils.

do not ignite, and rarely vaporize. can reach extremely high temperatures and pressures without chemically changing.

completely non-toxic.

extremely hydrophobic. in fact, any chemical changes to krytox compounds would require a very high energy endothermic reaction. i think i've managed an rx once, and it took direct application of a high output butane torch.

capable of forming complex mechanical micro-structures due to long polymer chains; this is a big deal, because good slick solids like ptfe don't like to live with oils.

[Vintage]

So, retailers will be getting lube in stock soon?

[Karura]

Right, I would also like to have a deadline for these!

Not to breath down your neck or anything, but I need to know if I should hold out for them or build my keyboards in the next month or two

[i3oilermaker]

I have the new stock - need a few minutes of free time to list them - expect them to be available on TechKeys in the near future.

[mkawa]

i can confirm that both techkeys and ctralt have received stock.

[Karura]

I have the new stock - need a few minutes of free time to list them - expect them to be available on TechKeys in the near future.

Hi Brad,

Would you also be stocking the dental foam tips? I feel that the needle ones are impossible to work with and absolutely want the dental foam tip heads.

Let me know!

Cheers

[mkawa]

The dental tips are reaaaallly expensive. I have a few more, but it's hard to justify the cost for one-use tips.. Brushes are imo a much better plan.

[Vintage]

I have the new stock - need a few minutes of free time to list them - expect them to be available on TechKeys in the near future.

Sweet! Don't want to bother you but is there any ETA of when you will list it? 

[mkawa]

i need to run it by techkeys and bunny, but i'm considering selling a more expensive krytox variety pack on the geeckers store to mitigate some of the shipment lag time.

to clarify, i've been able to lower my production costs recently, so we're able to offer small vials at much more competitive prices. i'm also working on new tooling to make a wider variety of products. in particular, i'm staring at some chemistry to see if i might be able to make a hybrid krytox thin lub that offers the surface tension of thick with the smoothness and easy application of thin. no eta on this though, as some of the chemistry is a bit tricky (particle distribution, solubility in hybrid substrate, and avoiding an increase in volatility).