Geekhack Keyboard Proposal

[quadibloc]

non-ANSI layouts seem to treat the backslash/pipe key as some kind of weird, uncommon key.  it's not!

Well, the shift key is even more common, and hitting |\ by mistake when trying to shift is a bad thing - just as hitting it by mistake when trying to backspace, as happens on the AT layout.

And on the ANSI layout, the Enter key is also located in a far-away position.

A normal keyboard looks (almost) like this:



at least from our perspective. The characters on the keys, though, are arranged this way:

Code: [Select]


!   @   #   $   %   ¢   &   *   (   )   _   +
1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   -   =
                                          ¼
  Q   W   E   R   T   Y   U   I   O   P   ½
                                       :   "
   A   S   D   F   G   H   J   K   L   ;   '
                                         ?
     Z   X   C   V   B   N   M   ,   .   /


This is what we are used to from electric typewriters, before ordinary people even had to contend with computers. So anything that moves either shift key, the carriage return (now Enter) key, or the backspace key is BAD.

Of course, if one keeps the true Enter key, then it's the {[ and }] keys that have to be moved; |\ is nice and accessible - where the 1/4 1/2 key was.

[cmr]

i'd have to be pretty drunk to go for rshift and mistakenly hit \| ... it's two rows up

[last-axiom-hero]

When i read the discussion about the placement of "|" and "\" i can only say: everthing just can be better than the current german layout in terms of programming. I'm not that into programming, but when writing a text in LaTeX it is a pain. All the "uncommon" chars like {,},[,] and especially \ are only reachable when pressing AltGr and streching your hand to the number-keys, which ensures you can't - without remacroing - type more than a hour.

So when creating a layout, think of the programmers and LaTeXers and put these chars somewhere were you can reach them without much effort.

[Shawn Stanford]

Okay, I think I've pretty much shot my wad here...

Here's the five-row, full numpad, inverted T layout (Num Lock OFF):

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  `  |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|     |
|*Esc | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 |     | |     |NumLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |   | | Ins |Home |PgUp |     |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |   | |     |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+   | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+   | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk|  \  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  |  '  |     | | Del | End |PgDn |     |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |Enter| |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  /  | Shift  | |     |  ^  |     |     |
|     |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |        | |     |  |  |     |     |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                               | Alt | Fun | Ctl | |  <- |  |  | ->  |Enter|
|     |     |     |                                               |     |     |     | |     |  V  |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+

The 'Fun' key on the left is used to shift the top row to get at the Escape and F keys. I imagine it could be used for plenty of other things as well. Also, with the Caps Lock OFF, there are several unused keys in the numeric keypad.

And here is the numeric keypad with Caps Lock ON:

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|  /  |
|     |NumLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  7  |  8  |  9  |  -  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  4  |  5  |  6  |  +  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  1  |  2  |  3  |  *  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  0  |     |  .  |Enter|
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+


This should give a board about the same width as the spacesaver and a full two rows shorter (counting the F row and the gap).

[quadibloc]

i'd have to be pretty drunk to go for rshift and mistakenly hit \| ... it's two rows up

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating people use the ISO keyboard, not the ANSI keyboard, where |\ is between Z and the left shift key, and it is pretty easy to hit by mistake when going for the left shift.

All the "uncommon" chars like {,},[,] and especially \ are only reachable when pressing AltGr and streching your hand to the number-keys,

Of course, some of that can't be corrected by redesigning the keyboard. For that you need to change the layout in the computer. It might be possible to make a keyboard that you tell which language layout you are using, and which can then issue appropriate scan codes from the keys to correct for the foibles of a few selected layouts, but that would not be the best way to go about it.

Thus, the German keyboard, the French keyboard, the Spanish keyboard - they're all the same International keyboard, with the same scan codes for the keys in the same positions, just different legends on the keys. As, of course, you probably already knew - but since we're talking here about how to improve the keyboard, there's not much that can be done to improve the national layout at that level.

[msiegel]

you guys are thinking of doing both ANSI and ISO versions, right?

i like ANSI, but i wouldn't want to cripple the rest of the world

[timw4mail]

you guys are thinking of doing both ANSI and ISO versions, right?

i like ANSI, but i wouldn't want to cripple the rest of the world

Let them have their deformed enter key :biggrin1:

[quadibloc]

you guys are thinking of doing both ANSI and ISO versions, right?

It all depends on what the rest of the world wants. And if the distinction even applies to the resulting design.

If there is an area on the keyboard nearly identical to the main typing area of the U.S. 101-key keyboard, then, yes, presumably whoever made it would also make a version with the 102-key layout.

On the other hand, the keyboard might be significantly different. It might displace three keys from the main typing area, and so adding a fourth one, the extra one from the 102-key (or ISO) layout might as well be done in the one version of the keyboard.

[msiegel]

this is a cool thread. i, for one, am giving it five stars

edit: and one deformed enter key

[JBert]

Okay, I think I've pretty much shot my wad here...

Here's the five-row, full numpad, inverted T layout (Num Lock OFF):

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  `  |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|     |
|*Esc | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 |     | |     |NumLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |   | | Ins |Home |PgUp |     |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |   | |     |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+   | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+   | +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk|  \  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  |  '  |     | | Del | End |PgDn |     |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |Enter| |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  /  | Shift  | |     |  ^  |     |     |
|     |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |        | |     |  |  |     |     |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                               | Alt | Fun | Ctl | |  <- |  |  | ->  |Enter|
|     |     |     |                                               |     |     |     | |     |  V  |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+

The 'Fun' key on the left is used to shift the top row to get at the Escape and F keys. I imagine it could be used for plenty of other things as well. Also, with the Caps Lock OFF, there are several unused keys in the numeric keypad.

And here is the numeric keypad with Caps Lock ON:

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|  /  |
|     |NumLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  7  |  8  |  9  |  -  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  4  |  5  |  6  |  +  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  1  |  2  |  3  |  *  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  0  |     |  .  |Enter|
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+


This should give a board about the same width as the spacesaver and a full two rows shorter (counting the F row and the gap).

Nice!

I would change some defaults though; the cursor should be enabled by default. As for the "Fun" key, the ESC key is probably used more than the `/~ key so I'd swap those keys on the layers.

I'm starting to like these compact layouts, as it makes the ESC key easier to reach.

I still want my keyboard mouse buttons as Fn keys though!  (Yes, I'm nagging, but this is a feature I haven't found in any conventional keyboard.)

[DreymaR]

a spacebar  split in 3 would solve the lack of buttons there.

I've even tried it with two normal-sized keys between the right-thumb Space and the left-thumb Enter [configurable] keys. Seems possible. In my view, the right-hand GUI and Menu keys could well be single-width since I don't think many people are hitting them rapidly a lot. The right-hand Shift key should probably be split in two but no more.

The trackpoint does seem ideally placed in the half-keywidth gap from the staggering improvement. The mouse buttons placements are debatable but solvable I think.

The fingering should be mostly that way bar the number row which is a shambles anyway and should probably be left up to each typist to figure out. The main idea is to flow with the improved staggering so your wrists remain straight while typing. I do that and it feels very good.

[quadibloc]

Well, I think I am well along now in converging to a solution.



Instead of my previous clumsy attempt to sneak a numeric keypad into the Space Saver keyboard design, I simply take my previous idea of using the function keys and keys between them and the 1, 2, and 3 keys of the normal layout as the location of a laptop-style numeric keypad that only is available in Num Lock mode.

To get the extra keys to put between the function keys and the main typing area, I move the Esc key down to replace ~`, so that I can replace the Esc key with Num Lock (missing from the Space Saver keyboard), and I shorten the keyboard (thus getting a true electric typewriter Enter key) thus getting {[ and }] to put up there. The international key becomes a fourth key to put there.

Maintaining a symmetrical layout, and not moving the right Alt key to a location where you would have to use something other than the right little finger to reach it, means, though, that there's no space for the Windows keys. (Awww, too bad!)

Turning Scroll Lock into a mode key, and Caps Lock into an Fn key, so that Fn-something would be Caps Lock, Fn-something else would be Scroll Lock, and other shenanigans could be employed as a means to varying the layout with a complicated controller, of course, would be a way to allow some fancy alternate layout with Windows keys.

[TheSoulhunter]

Id prefer something like this...

[JBert]

Well, I appreciate your effort but I think this layout still has a problem: the [ { and ] } keys are often used during programming. Placing them at the current spot makes them a bit hard to reach.

I'll try to draw a custom diagram some time. Maybe this evening...

[timw4mail]

I think a physical (ignoring the keycap legends) layout like this would be very comfortable:

[Rajagra]

Probably just going to confuse things, but I tried shuffling around a full-size keyboard and came up with this.

• Minimal staggering (1/4 key width jump between rows.)
• Left hand staggered in 'proper' direction.
• Some keys duplicated (Ctrl, B, 6).
• Includes ISO (European) key, but in less intrusive place than normal.
• Both Shift keys large and same distance from home position.
• Fat Escape key in prominent position.

[timw4mail]

Wow...that's huge.

Interesting, but I think no stagger is better than reverse stagger on the left.

[Rajagra]

Wow...that's huge.

It is EXACTLY the same size as a standard keyboard. I literally started with a normal keyboard layout and moved things around. Before and after:

Interesting, but I think no stagger is better than reverse stagger on the left.

That would be an easy change. It just means the Escape key will be less huge, and the left shift will be bigger still. Or an extra key could go to the left of it.

[JBert]

Wow...that's huge.

Interesting, but I think no stagger is better than reverse stagger on the left.

I wouldn't say that; the reverse stagger just means that you will place your hands differently and in a somewhat comfortable position. It's different, but it has its merits; mainly in the area you need to get a decent keyboard.

[quadibloc]

Well, I appreciate your effort but I think this layout still has a problem: the [ { and ] } keys are often used during programming. Placing them at the current spot makes them a bit hard to reach.

Yes, that is true, if you're programming in C, where [ ] are used for array subscripts to distinguish them from ( ) for function arguments.

But the keyboard design doesn't need to solve problems that belong to the language layout. A simple remap at the language layout level can yield a better layout for programmers like this:

Code: [Select]

|   `   \   <
 ~   {   }   >

 !   @   #   $   %   ^   &   *   (   )   _   +
 1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   -   =

                                           [
   Q   W   E   R   T   Y   U   I   O   P   ]

                                        :   &quot;
    A   S   D   F   G   H   J   K   L   ;   '

                                  <   >   ?
      Z   X   C   V   B   N   M   ,   .   /

which would be better suited to programmers with this layout. (The <> key is simply the international key, which actually acts like a second |\ key on the U.S. layout.)

Those who need \ a lot for Windows file names can keep the regular layout.

I think a physical (ignoring the keycap legends) layout like this would be very comfortable:

Of course, it should be given full N-key rollover, so you could chord whole syllables at once.

[quadibloc]

Id prefer something like this...

I'm not sure why moving the tab and back space is a good idea, and two back space keys is odd. However, there is a more serious flaw: with only one Alt key, it isn't possible to have one of them change to AltGr when needed for international layouts.

[timw4mail]

I'm not sure why moving the tab and back space is a good idea, and two back space keys is odd. However, there is a more serious flaw: with only one Alt key, it isn't possible to have one of them change to AltGr when needed for international layouts.

That's what an Fn key is for...

[msiegel]

Id prefer something like this...

Show Image

nice symmetry :D

[msiegel]

Probably just going to confuse things, but I tried shuffling around a full-size keyboard and came up with this.

• Minimal staggering (1/4 key width jump between rows.)
• Left hand staggered in 'proper' direction.
• Some keys duplicated (Ctrl, B, 6).
• Includes ISO (European) key, but in less intrusive place than normal.
• Both Shift keys large and same distance from home position.
• Fat Escape key in prominent position.

cool placement of Ins, Del, and Caps

[TheSoulhunter]

I'm not sure why moving the tab and back space is a good idea, and two back space keys is odd. However, there is a more serious flaw: with only one Alt key, it isn't possible to have one of them change to AltGr when needed for international layouts.

Maybe I should have added some explanation...

- Added 2nd Backspace and Enter for symmetry *
- |\ was placed in the number row as I rarely use it
- Moved Backspace so its more comfortable to reach
- Removed CapsLock (Who needs it anyway? I don't...)
- Removed one Win-key because I don't see reason for 2 ones
- Tab is now inline with other "misc" and "menu controlling" keys
- Put the ! into the "punctuation sector" where I'd intuitively assume it to be
- As the 2nd Win-key was removed I extended the Spacebar to be symmetric


Well, this is just my personal preference, some will like it, others may not... ^^;

Regarding the Alt / AltGr: Replacing the second Ctrl key with it should solve this

*
I already changed CapsLock ->  Backspace some time ago on my board (via registry editing). At first just because I wanted to replace CapsLock with something I actually use, but after some time I realized that a 2nd backspace at the left is kinda comfortable and I started to use it more and more. I think my current usage (L vs R Backspace) is already close to 50:50 now. When I do a error with the right hand, I delete it with the left, while my right already moves to the corrected position, same the other way around etc.

[TheSoulhunter]

nice symmetry

Yes, I like symmetry...
Actually so much other people are disturbed by it

She: "How do you like my new haircut?"
Me: "Uhm, it seems they cut one side a bit shorter than the other!?" *Grabs scissor*

[quadibloc]

Maybe I should have added some explanation...

It was only after I posted that I noticed that you had changed the staggering, and added a second Enter key, to make the layout fully symmetrical. I am surprised at the high degree of symmetry, as that seems to be more oriented towards visual appeal - even though symmetry in the sense of a dual inward slope - as in one of the other designs appearing here - does make sense from an ergonomic point of view.

As is clear from my examples, I'm staying very ordinary in my designs. It would perhaps be an idea for Unicomp to make an ergonomic buckling-spring keyboard, but they no doubt have other priorities.

[quadibloc]

Well, I appreciate your effort but I think this layout still has a problem: the [ { and ] } keys are often used during programming.

There is a solution to this issue at the keyboard level which has been employed in the past, and it has the benefit of reducing the number of keys moved around, which will be particularly helpful in ensuring the keyboard remains useful for people using non-U.S. layouts, and so, here you are:



Of course, that will disappoint the fellow who complained that the |\ key keeps getting shoved to odd portions of the layout, as though it were something exotic and little-used.

[msiegel]

getting the backslash and tilde keys out of the way has been an issue since time immemorial

here's apple's take. i guess they are supposed to be pressed using the thumbs?

[msiegel]

Steve Jobs shipped those keys off to the Numpad

welp, there goes the unix command line

[quadibloc]

getting the backslash and tilde keys out of the way has been an issue since time immemorial

So I'll need to reconsider, and leave them in the accessible places they had on the 101-key keyboard. To still use my numpad idea, though, the arrangement needs to be compactified on one side...



leaving a big rectangular empty space in the upper left corner. Well, perhaps it could be filled by something really geeky: a set of six front-panel switches!

The old IBM 704 had six sense switches and four sense lights, with which FORTRAN programs could interact...

[msiegel]

perhaps it could be filled by something really geeky: a set of six front-panel switches!

rocker switches rock

"uhura, take a memo!"

[Rajagra]

leaving a big rectangular empty space in the upper left corner. Well, perhaps it could be filled by something really geeky: a set of six front-panel switches!

Or maybe a REAL number pad! Two keys suffice!!:

[timw4mail]

Or maybe a REAL number pad! Two keys suffice!!:

If only it were that easy...

[quadibloc]

My previous design, with the rocker switches, was an act of desperation, and nearly an admission of defeat.

How do I satisfy Shawn Stanford's request that the cursor keys stay in an inverted-T formation, and at the bottom of the keyboard, and the Insert/Page Down block remain the same...

and JBert's request that the two areas stay close together,

and the additional condition that the square brackets not be too hard for programmers to reach,

and my own desires for a conventional layout, plus my assumptions as to the limitations of what Unicomp could easily make?

Well, after some more thinking, I have come up with this idea:



and I didn't even have to move Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause between the function keys and the main typing area (I was considering doing that, and then putting Power, Sleep, and Wake on the keyboard to balance the layout).

Note the use of a few "metallic gray" keys to move slightly towards my notions of functional coloring without too much overtaxing the eyes, as on an earlier layout.

And in the current corrected version of the image, the right-hand shift key is also shortened, to allow a single-width Fn key to be inserted to the right of it; if so, that key should also be metallic gray. The idea is that could allow for a few simple special functions, like switching the left-hand Control key with Caps Lock... or even switching to 122-key keyboard scan codes (and shifting F1 through F12 to F13 through F24).

Fn applied to the Insert/Page Down block could be used for choosing a layout, letting it be used as a character shift with the rest of the keyboard.

[Shawn Stanford]

I don't understand; I think your original idea of including a full numpad on the right side and integrating the cursor pad into it was brilliant. That allowed for an inverted T or a diamond with either the flip of a microswitch or a quick AutoHotKey setup and provided a full numeric keypad for those who wanted it. All for the width of a single key.

And I may be wrong, but I thought that the general consensus was that compacting the F keys into the numeric keys was acceptable as long as the Function key was easily accessible.

However, I'm sure the general consensus was that we were going for a compact layout and we're far afield from that...

You and I are extremely close and I think the last layout I threw out there (based on your work) satisfied pretty much every concern I remember seeing in this thread.

Just to reiterate, here's Stanford V3 with the inverted T cursor block:

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Esc |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BkSp | |PrtSc|NumLk|PauBr|     |
| *`  | *F1 | *F2 | *F3 | *F4 | *F5 | *F6 | *F7 | *F8 | *F9 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 |     | |     |*ScLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+     +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |     | Ins |Home |PgUp |     |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+     +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk|  \  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  |  '  |     | | Del | End |PgDn |     |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |Enter| |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Fun | Shift  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  /  | Shift  | |     |  ^  |     |     |
|     |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |        | |     |  |  |     |     |
+-----+--------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                               | Alt | Fun | Ctl | |  <- |  |  | ->  |Enter|
|     |     |     |                                               |     |     |     | |     |  V  |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+


And here's what happens when Num Lock is ON:

Code: [Select]


+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|NumLk|PauBr|  /  |
|     |*ScLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  7  |  8  |  9  |  -  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  4  |  5  |  6  |  +  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  1  |  2  |  3  |  *  |
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  0  |     |  .  |Enter|
|     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+


So, what are we looking at here..?

Well, first off it's narrow; it's the same width as the Spacesaver, even though it has a full extra column of keys. It's also short: with the integration of the F keys with the numeric keypad, you'll never have to reach more than two rows above the home row. Also, the Function key next to the LShift allows easy access to the F keys and the Shift-F keys (mashing LShift and LFun at the same time). I also went with someone's suggestion to make the Escape key the 'normal' key at the top left and have the tick/tilde be the Fun key, since it's used far less.

I don't see any reason for the ScrLk to get it's own key. I integrated it with the NumLk (as it is on my 122-key Boscom) with NumLk as the default and ScrLk as the Fun key.

How do I satisfy Shawn Stanford's request that the cursor keys stay in an inverted-T formation, and at the bottom of the keyboard, and the Insert/Page Down block remain the same...and JBert's request that the two areas stay close together,

The full numeric keypad seems to be a plus for a lot of people, and including it allows for the inverted T with full editing keys in their customary place above the T, or the classic cursor diamond with editing keys intermixed.

and the additional condition that the square brackets not be too hard for programmers to reach, and my own desires for a conventional layout,

All the keys are in their standard position with the exception of the backslash, which I moved to the left side of the keyboard next to the 'A'. This move, plus resizing the keys on the margins of the board keeps things nice and tight.

plus my assumptions as to the limitations of what Unicomp could easily make?

Well, figure the two hard parts are going to be the casing and the backplane. They already have the components for the keys. I think the casing would be easy and cheap enough to manufacture, even in small runs. I don't know enough about electronic component manufacturing to be able to guess as to the cost of designing and manufacturing a small run of backplanes.

As I see it, the solution for the numeric keypad is to provide two sets of keycaps: the first is to use existing numeric keys for those who want the cursor diamond. The second is to provide the cursor T and editing keycaps overprinted on the front face (not top) with the numeric keypad function. The overprint could even be a decal. The same would be true for the Escape and F keys.

If I get a little time, I could actually physically model this with some stray boards and board parts I have laying around...

[quadibloc]

I don't understand; I think your original idea of including a full numpad on the right side and integrating the cursor pad into it was brilliant.

I should note that it was someone else's idea to allow the numpad to switch to cursor keys in inverted-T formation instead of + formation.

I don't know if there is a consensus about what we're going for. My idea was to go for a somewhat compact layout, since the tenkeyless version of the Model M and the HHKB are both very popular here. But it was noted that changing the original 101-key layout for the typing area too much is a problem, because of the square brackets being useful for programming.

So the layout I started out with, with changes due to your input, was mostly criticized by others - and then there were illustrations of other people's much more radical changes to ergonomic keyboards.

I thought that I was still looking at a compact layout - as compact as the "mini", the IBM Space Saver keyboard, the tenkeyless model M - even if not more compact.

Although, I should be honest, that the most recent diagram doesn't quite represent what my fiendish plot for a new keyboard from Unicomp really is:



With that Fn key, and the ability to switch layouts, I'm not just aiming at switching the Caps Lock key with the left-hand Control key; oh, no. I also want the keyboard to be able to fully emulate a 122-key keyboard as well.

Compared to which, it is very compact.

Incidentally, in addition to having the option to switch the left-hand Control key with Caps Lock, there will also be the option to switch the right-hand Control key with Enter. Normally, that wouldn't make much sense - but in 122-key mode, that switches Carriage Return with Enter, putting Enter back on the Enter key, which is quite handy for 122-key work other than data entry.

Just to reiterate, here's Stanford V3 with the inverted T cursor block:

I do have to admit that is a good layout as well, although there's one fatal objection to it as it stands; the stagger between the Q-row and the A-row is wrong, the Q-row and the one above having to be moved half a key to the right (if I understand the diagram correctly).

Placing |\ between A and the Caps Lock key is a good idea, making that key reachable and Caps Lock harder to hit accidentally, but it's a bit unconventional, and modifying the numeric keypad by cutting the 0 key in half to facilitate the inverted-T cursor cluster is again a trifle unconventional.

What I've tried to do very hard all through this is make a keyboard that is highly conventional, very much like the old 101-key keyboard, so that Unicomp would not just be able to sell it to us - or, worse yet, the more adventurous ones of us - but that it would also be at home in the offices of their core market.

The changes I've made to the 101-key arrangement on my own initiative were to try and go back to the Selectric layout. So the extent to which I have been adventurous has been in the service of conservatism.

Yet there is still some compactness even in these last arrangements - it's the size of a keyboard with the numeric pad cut off, and yet it still has a numeric pad.

[Shawn Stanford]

I should note that it was someone else's idea to allow the numpad to switch to cursor keys in inverted-T formation instead of + formation.

That may have been my idea. In any case, I am absolutely its champion.

With that Fn key, and the ability to switch layouts, I'm not just aiming at switching the Caps Lock key with the left-hand Control key; oh, no. I also want the keyboard to be able to fully emulate a 122-key keyboard as well. Compared to which, it is very compact.

Hmm... I have to honestly say I'm not sure how you're accomplishing that with that layout, unless you're planning on padding out the F key rows to full 12-key rows. I've had the Boscom 122-key for a couple months now and it's nice and it's sort of like going home, but I'm not wedded to it by any means.

Since there are plenty of 122 keys out there for reasonable prices and the market is pretty much flooded with 101 key Model Ms, I thought we were going for the elusive and very expensive compact layout, and do the Spacesaver one better.

[Shawn Stanford]

I do have to admit that is a good layout as well, although there's one fatal objection to it as it stands; the stagger between the Q-row and the A-row is wrong, the Q-row and the one above having to be moved half a key to the right (if I understand the diagram correctly).

It shouldn't look that way. At least, it's not on my monitor. Alphanumeric area should be completely standard; I only adjusted one of the special character keys and the shifting keys. As I said: I think I have enough parts laying around to model this. I may give that a shot in the next few days if I can find the time.

Placing |\ between A and the Caps Lock key is a good idea, making that key reachable and Caps Lock harder to hit accidentally, but it's a bit unconventional, and modifying the numeric keypad by cutting the 0 key in half to facilitate the inverted-T cursor cluster is again a trifle unconventional.

Slicing the 0 is a bit unconventional, but it's not unheard-of; there have been all sorts of key configurations on the numeric keypad, so I don't think it's completely out of line. Anyway, if someone completely objects to it, it should be possible to get a 'double key' included with the board. My scheme had the key below the 2 undefined, so if there was a double key for the 0, any presses on the key below the 2 would be ignored.

[quadibloc]

That may have been my idea. In any case, I am absolutely its champion.

I was thinking of a post by Matt Siegel on page 5 of this thread. Myself, I wouldn't want to change the default cursor alternates for the numeric keypad, simply because I suspect that would please very few people, and cause all sorts of confusion and compatibility problems.

Some games require one to take the numpad out of Num Lock, and use Home, End, PgUp and PgDn for diagonal movement, for example.

So I've drifted towards a somewhat less-compact keyboard arrangement - but it still gives you a numpad while chopping off the numpad.

And instead of adding three columns of keys, one could indeed move Print Screen to Pause to the left one key, squeeze the right Alt and Ctrl keys, nest the inverted-T into the keyboard, and go to a 3 by 2 array instead of a 2 by 3 array for Home/Page Down... and trim to two added columns on the right, in much the way the keyboard of which you showed a photo did, and, indeed, a number of other keyboards do (as it happens, even the ViewSonic VS 10679keyboard on which I type these words).

I'm trying very hard to come up with a keyboard that has broad appeal, but also has certain elite features that would appeal to the sort of person that is in this group.

Thus, the diagram shows the keyboard with a relatively conventional color scheme. With this color scheme, it would have cylinder keys with IBM style legends - printable characters on the right of the key, capital letters at the top left, upper and lower-case legends on the special keys.

If possible - and this might be too much to ask - I would also hope for a Geekhack Special version of the keyboard. In my retro color scheme, perhaps (I'm not sure it has that broad an appeal here, so something tamer might have to be used); the Esc, Pause/Break, and Print Screen/System Request keys would have removable keycaps... and the keyboard would come with red versions of those keys; the legends would be in classic style - printable characters centered, letters fill the key, upper-case only legends on the special keys (except for the n in Fn)... and, just to complete the retro appeal, cupped keycaps.

But, to reiterate: to make the keyboard as practical as possible for day-to-day typing for the greatest number of people, I've allowed myself to be driven by both your suggestions and those of others to keeping the changes from the traditional PC layout to a minimum.

[Rajagra]

It shouldn't look that way. At least, it's not on my monitor. Alphanumeric area should be completely standard;

The QWERTY and ASDF rows are only offset a small amount on a standard board, about 1/4 key width I believe, following this pattern:

I wouldn't want to change the default cursor alternates for the numeric keypad, simply because I suspect that would please very few people, and cause all sorts of confusion and compatibility problems.

You could steal an idea from the Typematrix keyboard. It has a Num key as well as the NumLock key.

Num turns a group of letters and other keys into the Numpad. Its behaviour is then determined by NumLock as normal. Summary:

• Num off: Keys give letters;
• Num on, NumLock on: Keys give numbers;
• Num on, NumLock off: Keys give navigation.

Translating this to Shawn's layout, we'd aim for this:

• Num off: Keys give inverted T and 6-pack navigation;
• Num on, NumLock on: Keys give numbers;
• Num on, NumLock off: Keys give diamond-cluster navigation etc.

Maybe instead of using a Num toggle, the Fn layer could be used instead.

[Shawn Stanford]

I was thinking of a post by Matt Siegel on page 5 of this thread. Myself, I wouldn't want to change the default cursor alternates for the numeric keypad, simply because I suspect that would please very few people, and cause all sorts of confusion and compatibility problems. Some games require one to take the numpad out of Num Lock, and use Home, End, PgUp and PgDn for diagonal movement, for example.

Yes, I agree. I thought I said that the diamond should be the default layout when the NumLk is OFF. If I didn't, I meant to. In any case: in a perfect world the user could throw a switch and swap some keycaps and have the inverted T and editing block, but if not: that's what AHK is for...

So I've drifted towards a somewhat less-compact keyboard arrangement - but it still gives you a numpad while chopping off the numpad.

I think here is where we part ways. I don't see any reason to chop off the numpad. You're not gaining (or losing, I guess) a significant amount of space - especially if you squeeze a key-column out of the right side of the typing area.

And instead of adding three columns of keys, one could indeed move Print Screen to Pause to the left one key, squeeze the right Alt and Ctrl keys, nest the inverted-T into the keyboard, and go to a 3 by 2 array instead of a 2 by 3 array for Home/Page Down... and trim to two added columns on the right, in much the way the keyboard of which you showed a photo did, and, indeed, a number of other keyboards do (as it happens, even the ViewSonic VS 10679keyboard on which I type these words).

I couldn't find a picture of that keyboard. Is this what you're describing?

Code: [Select]


-+-----+-----+-----+-----+  +-----+-----+
 |  0  |  -  |  =  |BkSp |  | Ins |Home |
 |*F10 |*F11 |*F12 |     |  |     |     |
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+  +-----+-----+
---+-----+-----+-----+      +-----+-----+
O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |      | Del | End |
   |     |     |     |      |     |     |
---+-----+-----+-----+      +-----+-----+
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+  +-----+-----+
 |  L  |  ;  |  '  |     |  |PgUp |PgDn |
 |     |     |     |Enter|  |     |     |
-+-----+-----+-----+-----+  +-----+-----+
----+-----+-----+--------+  +-----+
 ,  |  .  |  /  | Shift  |  |  ^  |
    |     |     |        |  |  |  |
----+-----+-----+--------+  +-----+
--+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
  | Alt | Fun | Ctl | |  <- |  |  | ->  |
  |     |     |     | |     |  V  |     |
--+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+

If so, that would be acceptable for me, but obviously not as clean an implementation.

I'm trying very hard to come up with a keyboard that has broad appeal, but also has certain elite features that would appeal to the sort of person that is in this group. ..snip.. But, to reiterate: to make the keyboard as practical as possible for day-to-day typing for the greatest number of people, I've allowed myself to be driven by both your suggestions and those of others to keeping the changes from the traditional PC layout to a minimum.

I think you're pretty much there, with the exception of the odd placement of some of they keys (the ones between the numeric key row and the F key row) and the loss of the numeric keypad. I would think folks who are hung on the numeric keypad want a keypad that's in the right place and all the time.

Ultimately, it's a question of which set of compromises you're willing to buy and live with. Clearly, if Unicomp doesn't feel what we scheme up is marketable, it's a no-go.

[Shawn Stanford]

The QWERTY and ASDF rows are only offset a small amount on a standard board, about 1/4 key width I believe, following this pattern:

Yeah, that's what happens when you're using ASCII. Imagine it as it should be, please!

You could steal an idea from the Typematrix keyboard. It has a Num key as well as the NumLock key. Translating this to Shawn's layout, we'd aim for this:

• Num off: Keys give inverted T and 6-pack navigation;
• Num on, NumLock on: Keys give numbers;
• Num on, NumLock off: Keys give diamond-cluster navigation etc.

Maybe instead of using a Num toggle, the Fn layer could be used instead.

Very clever! Fn+NumLk could be used to select the cursor layout and it's easy enough to show both layouts using decals (thinking cheap and easy here) applied to the front faces of the numeric keypad and leaving the top imprinted with the classic numeric keypad/cursor diamond. But it would require a slightly smarter controller and an extra LED to show which cursor layout you're using; I'm not sure how feasible that is.

[quadibloc]

Ultimately, it's a question of which set of compromises you're willing to buy and live with. Clearly, if Unicomp doesn't feel what we scheme up is marketable, it's a no-go.

I despair of finding anything - other than a very standard keyboard, i.e. the straight tenkeyless with numeric keypad omitted - that they might add to their product line of their own volition.

So this is why I'm describing layouts here, hoping to find which of the basic designs so far might provoke a response of "I'd buy that", so that once there is a design chosen, we could place an order.

Basically, the notion I've played with in some of the examples was one that used the alignment of the function keys, and keys between them and the numbers, so that one could use the same method a laptop keyboard uses to switch some keys into acting like a numeric keypad when Num Lock is on to switch keys... that happened to be organized vertically, so they were comfortable for numeric keypad users.

That may not be the best trick to employ. It limits how compact the keyboard can be. That's why my first idea was to omit the function keys and the cursor keys, and just have a numeric keypad - and model the behavior on the HHKB, but be lighter.

[Shawn Stanford]

Bwahahahahahaha!

[Shawn Stanford]

...snip... my first idea was to omit the function keys and the cursor keys, and just have a numeric keypad - and model the behavior on the HHKB, but be lighter.

That would be this, right?


If so, then - as is so often the case - your initial concept was the winner. My Version 3 is really the same, only I pushed the typing area out and squeezed the shift keys enough to keep all the alphanumeric keys in the same place except for the '\ |', which I moved to the left of the A. I also tweaked the numeric keypad to add in the numeric function keys to the right and allow for the inverted cursor T if the user so-wished.

[msiegel]

huh, i've never seen a proctologist use a transparent flashlight before...

[Rajagra]

huh, i've never seen a proctologist use a transparent flashlight before...

You must have Safe Search enabled in Google then. :-)

[Shawn Stanford]

That's what Melvin said.

No doubt...

Okay, I'm a complete dummy when in comes to this, so bear with me.

With the proviso that the board would use standard keycaps and key guts - which could be recycled from existing boards or purchased in bulk from Unicomp, and that the case could be designed and manufactered in a small run for a reasonable price:

1. How much work is involved in designing the backplane and circuit board for a keyboard?

2. How much work would assembly be?

My thinking is that this could be set up as a hobbyist kit that any mook (like me) could solder together. You get a backplane, a case, a circuit board and a set of instructions and the rest is up to you.

[quadibloc]

With the proviso that the board would use standard keycaps and key guts -

At one point, in another thread, I proposed using even a standard circuit board. Unicomp makes 3151 keyboards which are identical to the 101-key keyboard except for an extra key in the numeric keypad, and I suggested using only a custom controller chip to make a more versatile keyboard.