Author Topic: Any new Model F owners? (Read 7137 times)

timw4mail · « **on:** Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:32:26 »

I noticed that there is only one Model F left in that one auction on ebay.
Anybody from here order one? And if you got it, how do you like it?

msiegel · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 03 October 2009, 21:43:36 »

wasn't me...

but, i just created a new group for model f owners

join now and declare your allegiance to the best buckling spring!

http://geekhack.org/group.php?groupid=5

roaduck · « **Reply #2 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 00:17:48 »

Quote from: timw4mail;122753

I noticed that there is only one Model F left in that one auction on ebay.
Anybody from here order one? And if you got it, how do you like it?

Tim I am pondering wether to order a model F on Monday rather than get another 1391406 or a 1390136.

I have no idea what the models are that I should be going for.Please can you help me to choose one.

My requirements are full UK layout with numberpad built-in and a detachable SDL to PS/2 cable if at all possible.

Any advice would be most appreciated.Thanks in advance.

ch_123 · « **Reply #3 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 04:42:34 »

There are no UK layout Model Fs, or indeed anything other than the standard layout (Ones in the UK had different symbols on the keycaps, but you get that functionality by running the keyboard on a computer set to UK layout... they are very very rare to find out 'in the wild') Also, none of them have SDL cables, they all come with a fixed AT cable. All you need however is a simple AT-to-PS/2 adapter which cost very little.

Seems to be one left from that seller.

JBert · « **Reply #4 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:12:08 »

I have one in shipment, but I found it as a BIN so it has nothing to do with this auction.

roaduck · « **Reply #5 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:05:07 »

Quote from: ch_123;122795

There are no UK layout Model Fs, or indeed anything other than the standard layout (Ones in the UK had different symbols on the keycaps, but you get that functionality by running the keyboard on a computer set to UK layout... they are very very rare to find out 'in the wild') Also, none of them have SDL cables, they all come with a fixed AT cable. All you need however is a simple AT-to-PS/2 adapter which cost very little.

Seems to be one left from that seller.

Thanks for the advice ch_123 .I don't mind a U.S. layout keyboard with a captive AT cable.

I was just wondering what the model numbers are on the underside of the keyboard that's all so that I know precisely what to ask for on Monday.

quadibloc · « **Reply #6 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:09:22 »

About the only way you could get a Model F with a layout other than the old AT layout would be to find a 122-key keyboard. The main typing area on that has the same arrangement as a 102-key international layout, so it would indeed be like a UK layout.

timw4mail · « **Reply #7 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 12:18:11 »

Quote from: roaduck;122851

Thanks for the advice ch_123 .I don't mind a U.S. layout keyboard with a captive AT cable.

I was just wondering what the model numbers are on the underside of the keyboard that's all so that I know precisely what to ask for on Monday.

Well, there's really the look is what you should remember. The problem is that the AT versions had very little labeling beyond "IBM Personal Computer AT" on the metal badge. The distinct look really is about the best way to identify the keyboard.

roaduck · « **Reply #8 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 14:57:47 »

Quote from: timw4mail;122860

Well, there's really the look is what you should remember. The problem is that the AT versions had very little labeling beyond "IBM Personal Computer AT" on the metal badge. The distinct look really is about the best way to identify the keyboard.

Thanks Tim and quadibloc.When I ring datarecovered tomorrow they should be able to tell me what old IBM models are in stock and which ones are the model F's - they're quite clued-up.

timw4mail · « **Reply #9 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 15:01:09 »

Quote from: roaduck;122922

Thanks Tim and quadibloc.When I ring datarecovered tomorrow they should be able to tell me what old IBM models are in stock and which ones are the model F's - they're quite clued-up.

We're probably the exception referring to the 84-key AT keyboard as a Model F, just remember that.

ch_123 · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 15:02:46 »

Quote from: roaduck;122922

Thanks Tim and quadibloc.When I ring datarecovered tomorrow they should be able to tell me what old IBM models are in stock and which ones are the model F's - they're quite clued-up.

The badge saying "Model F" is inside the case. I'd do as timw4mail suggested and ask for a keyboard with a silver badge saying "IBM Personal Computer AT" on it. Here are some pics.

(The number on the label on the back is a serial number)

timw4mail · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun, 04 October 2009, 19:38:26 »

Usually they just call it the IBM PC AT keyboard, or something similar.

SigonLegacy · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 05:08:08 »

I MAY have purchased one of those delightful Model F keyboards and I MIGHT be typing this post on it right now. Maybe. Possibly. *Cough*

ch_123 · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 05:40:10 »

What do you think about it?

JBert · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 06:27:00 »

Quote from: SigonLegacy;125540

I MAY have purchased one of those delightful Model F keyboards and I MIGHT be typing this post on it right now. Maybe. Possibly. *Cough*

Sheesh, make up your mind! :-)

SigonLegacy · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 06:27:47 »

I've owned a Model F in the past, but that was in my younger, more wreckless days. I haphazardly removed the spacebar to clean it up, but then threw the whole thing away when I couldn't get it back together. The keyboard was free, so I didn't think about it at the time.

It's the same as I remember it. Lighter force than my IBM Model M, heavy spacebar activation. I would say it feels somewhat lighter than my Unicomp Model M and quite a bit lighter than my IBM Model M, but that may be due to years of use. The layout is great for most of the games I play key, especially the function keys. Still not too wild about the lack of inverted T arrow keys, but everything else is how I'd like it.

The sound it makes is pretty unique, again just as I remember it. Higher pitched than my Model Ms and maybe a tad on the pingy side when released, but perhaps a tad quieter overall. Nowhere near as quiet as my Dell AT101W. The spacebar makes a very satisfying thunk when it bottoms out.

My PS/2 to USB adaptor that works fine on my old Model M doesn't work on this Model F. Disappointing, but meh. At least I still have a PS/2 port on my computer. When I use the adaptor, the lock lights all flash once whenever I make a keystroke and it doesn't register at all with the computer.

Apart from all that, I'm loving it. Easier on my fingers to say the least and the sound annoys the hell out of my roommate, which is another absolute plus.

timw4mail · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 07:09:23 »

Quote from: SigonLegacy;125554

Nowhere near as quiet as my Dell AT101W. The spacebar makes a very satisfying thunk when it bottoms out.

Since when is the AT101W quiet?

Quote

My PS/2 to USB adaptor that works fine on my old Model M doesn't work on this Model F. Disappointing, but meh. At least I still have a PS/2 port on my computer. When I use the adaptor, the lock lights all flash once whenever I make a keystroke and it doesn't register at all with the computer.

Unfortunately, the Model F does seem to require more power than most keyboards, and can be difficult to find PS/2 to USB adapters that work well with it because of that.

Quote

Apart from all that, I'm loving it. Easier on my fingers to say the least and the sound annoys the hell out of my roommate, which is another absolute plus.

It is a very noisy keyboard.

Isn't that keystroke satisfying?

ch_123 · « **Reply #17 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 08:57:53 »

Quote from: timw4mail;125556

Unfortunately, the Model F does seem to require more power than most keyboards, and can be difficult to find PS/2 to USB adapters that work well with it because of that.

I've never had any problems with any of the motherboards, USB adaptors or KVM switches I've used mine with.

timw4mail · « **Reply #18 on:** Thu, 15 October 2009, 09:25:19 »

Quote from: ch_123;125584

I've never had any problems with any of the motherboards, USB adaptors or KVM switches I've used mine with.

While my main computer will work with a Model M, it has issues with the Model F, although with the USB adapter I have now, I have my Model F working with my USB KVM switch just fine.

SigonLegacy · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 17:21:56 »

Quote from: timw4mail;125598

While my main computer will work with a Model M, it has issues with the Model F, although with the USB adapter I have now, I have my Model F working with my USB KVM switch just fine.

For some reason, I had a problem with my Model M plugged into the PS/2 port, so I used one of my old PS/2 to USB adaptors, which made it work perfectly fine. I tried the same thing on this Model F, only the USB adaptor doesn't work... but it works via PS/2 just fine.

The Model M would cause SEVERE instability on this computer via PS/2, likely due to power draw. No instability using my USB adaptor. If the Model F draws MORE, wouldn't it cause worse instability?

EDIT: Also, this isn't some cheap PS/2 to USB adaptor. It's fully powered and is recognized by the computer as a separate input device. It's worked wonders for years.

timw4mail · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 16 October 2009, 18:14:02 »

Quote from: SigonLegacy;126185

The Model M would cause SEVERE instability on this computer via PS/2, likely due to power draw. No instability using my USB adaptor. If the Model F draws MORE, wouldn't it cause worse instability?

EDIT: Also, this isn't some cheap PS/2 to USB adaptor. It's fully powered and is recognized by the computer as a separate input device. It's worked wonders for years.

Maybe the capacitors in my keyboard are drier, who knows.

JBert · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 17 October 2009, 05:57:17 »

Quote from: SigonLegacy;126185

The Model M would cause SEVERE instability on this computer via PS/2, likely due to power draw. No instability using my USB adaptor. If the Model F draws MORE, wouldn't it cause worse instability?

EDIT: Also, this isn't some cheap PS/2 to USB adaptor. It's fully powered and is recognized by the computer as a separate input device. It's worked wonders for years.

Well, it could be that the model M has no "inrush capacitor" or that it got bust. Because of that, powering it up might deregulate the voltage lines in your PC and hence make it unstable.
If this were the case, it would only happen on boot though...

If you draw a lot of power from the USB bus and your PS/2 adaptor can't exactly tell how much power your keyboard uses, it could be the PC shuts down that particular USB bus because it is drawing too much current.
Do the lights of the model F flash when you plug in the adaptor?

SigonLegacy · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:06:10 »

Quote from: JBert;126314

Well, it could be that the model M has no "inrush capacitor" or that it got bust. Because of that, powering it up might deregulate the voltage lines in your PC and hence make it unstable.
If this were the case, it would only happen on boot though...

It's stable on boot, but is randomly unstable throughout the usage of the computer.

Quote from: JBert;126314

If you draw a lot of power from the USB bus and your PS/2 adaptor can't exactly tell how much power your keyboard uses, it could be the PC shuts down that particular USB bus because it is drawing too much current.?

I really doubt this keyboard draws more current than what a USB port can provide; 500mA at 5V. Depending on the computer, that is usually around twice the current a PS/2 port can provide and the F seems to work fine via PS/2. That'd be a few times more than even the Model M, which draws considerably more than a regular keyboard.

Quote from: JBert;126314

Do the lights of the model F flash when you plug in the adaptor?

Yes, the lights flash when I plug it in then goes out after around a half second. They then flash with every keystroke after that and don't register on the PC as a keystroke.

SigonLegacy · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun, 18 October 2009, 13:08:44 »

Quote from: timw4mail;125556

Since when is the AT101W quiet?

Didn't say it was quiet. Just quieter than the F.

Anymore, with all the racket my keyboards make, quiet is VERY relative.

JBert · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:06:37 »

My model F arrived, turned out it was an AT after all. So far, it seems to work great.
Still seems I have to mod it though as the layout isn't entirely to my liking.

msiegel · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:16:32 »

awesome, congratulations!!

wait, what did you say? it's so loud in here all of a sudden...

itlnstln · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:20:54 »

Quote from: msiegel;127007

awesome, congratulations!!

wait, what did you say? it's so loud in here all of a sudden...

No kidding. At least there's one thread here that hasn't been tainted.

msiegel · « **Reply #27 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:43:50 »

Quote from: JBert;127003

My model F arrived, turned out it was an AT after all. So far, it seems to work great.
Still seems I have to mod it though as the layout isn't entirely to my liking.

hey JBert, have you done any model f mods so far, on your XT?

i'm always curious to see what people have come up with

thedward · « **Reply #28 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:45:26 »

I picked up an XT Model F for $15 off of craigslist.org;

I spent more on the parts to make the USB adapter.

Before this keyboard, I thought my Model Ms were loud.

It has the layout where the backslash/pipe key is just left of the Z. That is not optimal, but I love that it has Control just left of the A and Esc just left of 1. (Caps Lock is, bizarrely, just right of the space bar.

msiegel · « **Reply #29 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:49:09 »

Quote from: thedward;127017

I picked up an XT Model F for $15 off of craigslist.org;

I spent more on the parts to make the USB adapter.

Before this keyboard, I thought my Model Ms were loud.

It has the layout where the backslash/pipe key is just left of the Z. That is not optimal, but I love that it has Control just left of the A and Esc just left of 1. (Caps Lock is, bizarrely, just right of the space bar.

sweet, that one has a great sound

the location of Print Screen makes my head spin XD

ch_123 · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 15:49:37 »

Did you manage to make an XT adapter for it?

thedward · « **Reply #31 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 16:13:06 »

Quote from: ch_123;127019

Did you manage to make an XT adapter for it?

Yes. I used a Teensy development board. It's an ugly external adapter for now because I haven't been able to bring myself to mangle the original cable. I wish it had an SDL port, because then I could just mangle one of my spare SDL cables into a USB cable.

If anyone is interested, I could post the source code.

timw4mail · « **Reply #32 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 16:23:51 »

I don't blame you on not being able to mangle the original cable. Have you thought about opening it up and putting the adapter inside of the keyboard?

thedward · « **Reply #33 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 16:31:18 »

Quote from: timw4mail;127023

I don't blame you on not being able to mangle the original cable. Have you thought about opening it up and putting the adapter inside of the keyboard?

Well, that was what I was thinking about in regards to mangling the cable. I could cut off the end of the cable and replace it with a USB connector, then splice in my adapter between the cable and the keyboard circuit board.

It just now occurred to me that I could mangle one of my spare SDL cables into a USB cable. That way I could just remove the original cable and save it in case I pass the keyboard on to someone who would rather have an XT keyboard. I really like the idea of having a substantial spiral USB cable.

ch_123 · « **Reply #34 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 17:40:05 »

Quote from: thedward;127021

If anyone is interested, I could post the source code.

Yeah, you should make a page on either the wiki or the mod section. Give some details on the hardware used and post up the source code. There's a good few people around here who are interested in making one of those adapters.

thedward · « **Reply #35 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 17:52:52 »

Quote from: ch_123;127039

Yeah, you should make a page on either the wiki or the mod section. Give some details on the hardware used and post up the source code. There's a good few people around here who are interested in making one of those adapters.

That's a good idea. I'll see what I can put together.

timw4mail · « **Reply #36 on:** Mon, 19 October 2009, 18:34:49 »

On a similar old keyboard front, I finally fixed one of the broken switches on my NEC keyboard. I had to sacrifice Pause/Break, but that's probably a key I've never used.

JBert · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue, 20 October 2009, 01:51:06 »

Quote from: msiegel;127016

hey JBert, have you done any model f mods so far, on your XT?

i'm always curious to see what people have come up with

I've only modded the space bar stabilizer to have less upforce. That's pretty much it as I will still need a Teensy or similar to use the keyboard.

I'll post some pics and comparisons soon.

maxlugar · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue, 20 October 2009, 02:00:14 »

Quote from: JBert;127117

I've only modded the space bar stabilizer to have less upforce. That's pretty much it as I will still need a Teensy or similar to use the keyboard.

I'll post some pics and comparisons soon.

JBert, can you explain exactly how you modded the space bar stabilizer to reduce the upforce? Pics maybe???

That is the only that annoyance I have with my favourite keyboard. When I use an 84-key PC AT after having used my Blue Cherry Filcos, TVS Gold, or my Topre key switch boards, the space bar kills my thumb. I get used to it after a while, but I would still prefer it to require less force.

I have one 84-key PC AT keyboard which has a noticeabley lighter space bar, but it is not one of my smoother 84-key boards. Thanks.

JBert · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue, 20 October 2009, 02:26:08 »

Strange, my new AT seems to have a pretty light spacebar as well when the rest of the keys feel rather stiff.

I'll try to get some pics up over the weekend, but it does involve disassembling the whole keyboard innards.

thedward · « **Reply #40 on:** Wed, 21 October 2009, 19:15:10 »

Quote from: ch_123;127039

Yeah, you should make a page on either the wiki or the mod section.

I've put up a first draft:

XT Model F Adapter Project

I'm definitely in favor of some constructive criticism and feedback.

itlnstln · « **Reply #41 on:** Thu, 22 October 2009, 08:13:53 »

Damn, I've been around for awhile and haven't seen you here before, thedward.

Welcome (back?) to Geekhack!

thedward · « **Reply #42 on:** Thu, 22 October 2009, 09:44:33 »

Quote from: itlnstln;127572

Damn, I've been around for awhile and haven't seen you here before, thedward.

Welcome (back?) to Geekhack!

Thanks.

I've been lurking around awhile. My keyboard obsession kind of yo-yos in intensity depending on what else I am obsessing over any given week. This is the first time it has really ramped up to 11 since I joined the forum.

News:

Author Topic: Any new Model F owners? (Read 7137 times)