Author Topic: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)  (Read 11898 times)

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Offline azhdar

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Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:26:15 »


Long left shift is downright stupid, the argument that it's easier to reach is false since you're supposed to reach it with pinky anyway.
1.25+1 is better than 2.25 Left Shift.

The backslash key: only alphas that isn't 1u, first mistake, and it's right into a column of modifiers and it ruins the color logic of the board. The person who made this was clearly on acid when he did ANSI.

Backspace/backslash position: backspace you we 2 keys alphas and backslash the backspace like on HHKB. It saves the color scheme, save the logic of modifiers/alphas position color, key dimensions.
People all praise the HHKB layout for backspace position for a reason it makes sense.


That would give ansi 2 new alphas, not sure what you would use it for since english doesn't have accent characters. Maybe some random things like €,£ ² ...

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:28:30 by azhdar »

Offline sth

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:29:40 »
ISO has equally-terrible backspace positioning and Enter is even further away than ANSI.

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:33:27 »
UK ISO makes good use of the extra "alpha," I mean who doesn't need instant access to the hashtag these days.  Twice a year I might need a wiggle (~) too :))
                               
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Offline nmur

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:35:18 »
I agree with the HHKB backspace points (except colour scheme, most custom sets these days have mod coloured replacement for the backslash). the ISO layout doesn't even has this though..

However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.

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Offline sth

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:36:40 »
However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.

agreed.
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Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:37:50 »
ISO has equally-terrible backspace positioning and Enter is even further away than ANSI.



I agree that the ISO enter is bad and of poor design.

The corrected version of ANSI I explained would be better than ISO & current Ansi, but I don't think any of those layouts are moving anytime soon.

UK ISO makes good use of the extra "alpha," I mean who doesn't need instant access to the hashtag these days.  Twice a year I might need a wiggle (~) too :))

Never hurts to have them somewhere on the board, we have things even more stupid on Azerty like this: ¤ and this §


Offline Karura

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:42:04 »
HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

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Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:42:37 »


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:44:38 by azhdar »

Offline Karura

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:46:02 »
The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

Fair enough, in that case, I'd have a hard time arguing which is better. It must be muscle memory or something, but I do enjoy having the ANSI long left shift, it helps out with walking/crouching in games.

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Offline sth

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:48:47 »


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

ok then HHKB layout is best layout :3
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Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:50:04 »


However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).


HHKB backspace + ANSI enter is as good as it gets. That's why ISO is way worse, you couldn't fit the HHKB backspace with the big enter :/

The discussion here is about layouts without modifications.

ok then HHKB layout is best layout :3

Only missing a short Lshift to be perfect :>

Offline nmur

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 22 September 2015, 03:51:49 »




However the ANSI long shift is better because the reach is far less for the right pinky. It just has to move down from the 'a' key slightly, whereas with ISO you have to also move it across one key's width. This is actually a pretty big relative difference, and the shift key is obviously used a lot.



Must be a matter of hand size then because I can have my left pinky on ISO Lshift and right pinky on the far right of Rshift (always split on my boards) while still being able to acess all keys (but 567 on numrow).

as can I, but I'm talking about the travel distance  required for the left pinkie to go from its resting position on the 'a' to 'shift', and not just whether it can be reached or not.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:15:23 »
Both are terrible.

A combination of all ISO, ANSI and JIS would be tolerable.

Offline digi

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:16:34 »
US > France..

ANSI > ISO

Offline Bromono

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:21:58 »
I just don't understand the Big Ass Enter key.

I only use left shift and never touch the right shift.

I love the HHKB layout more then any layout out atm. takes a couple days to stop hitting the | key instead of the backspace. but other then that HHKB layout for lyfe.

If only the realforce shared the same 60% layout =(((

Offline sncbraxsc2

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:40:53 »

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.


Just like a Frenchy to make a competition out of a few very small differences :D

I think the large left shift is particularly useful when shift-queuing and having 6+ hotkeys in an RTS

The backspace is only a big deal to those who frequently make mistakes :D speaking of mistakes...that iso enter....
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Offline Zorox

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 12:57:17 »
My typing behavior also fits ISO much better than ANSI, after I finish one sentence in chat I always make a short pause (~0,5s) to check it and press Enter. The extended gesture of my right pinky lands always right on the big-ass ISO Enter, and in case of correction needed the Backspace right on it can be easily reached. With the extra key I can code better, while next to the short L-Shift is <> in one key and I can also reach + # -_´ within one range on the right side (Im doing ISO-DE). Although I was used to ANSI for about 10 years in my homeland but when I moved in Germany ISO just won my love and I stick to it until now.

Long live ISO!

And Im thinking of making a trading thread especially for ISO keyset, so that our minority can more easily find ISO deals, not in the ANSI ocean of classified threads :D

Offline Yoe

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 13:08:54 »

Show Image


Long left shift is downright stupid, the argument that it's easier to reach is false since you're supposed to reach it with pinky anyway.
1.25+1 is better than 2.25 Left Shift.

The backslash key: only alphas that isn't 1u, first mistake, and it's right into a column of modifiers and it ruins the color logic of the board. The person who made this was clearly on acid when he did ANSI.

Backspace/backslash position: backspace you we 2 keys alphas and backslash the backspace like on HHKB. It saves the color scheme, save the logic of modifiers/alphas position color, key dimensions.
People all praise the HHKB layout for backspace position for a reason it makes sense.


That would give ansi 2 new alphas, not sure what you would use it for since english doesn't have accent characters. Maybe some random things like €,£ ² ...

Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.

All this. Could not agree more!

Offline jerue

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 13:38:22 »
My only beef with ANSI is the right shift. I prefer HHKB layout for this reason. I use LShift with my ring finger, probably need a 1.5u Shift at the least. Though I have some 1.25 shifts lying around, I should try those out and see how I like it.

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 14:03:04 »
Disagree entirely. Anything other than ANSI makes my hands hurt (And I've given a ton of alternate layouts a decent shot).

It's all personal preference.

Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 14:44:19 »
Both are terrible.

A combination of all ISO, ANSI and JIS would be tolerable.
Show Image


That's a layout I could get behind.
I'm more an more thinking that any key above 2unit is a waste of space.


Anyway the damage is done, ANSI makes no sense,

all heil ISO.


Just like a Frenchy to make a competition out of a few very small differences :D

I think the large left shift is particularly useful when shift-queuing and having 6+ hotkeys in an RTS

The backspace is only a big deal to those who frequently make mistakes :D speaking of mistakes...that iso enter....

I like how the justification of this stupid long left shift is always related to videogames.

And I'm not saying ISO is perfect, they made several mistakes :
ISO enter is stupidly large, Right shift should be split regardless. I actually prefer the way the brazilian does it: it's 1.75u + 1u but with the 1.75u on the far right.

But taking both standard layout ISO> ANSI.
Improved ANSI ala HHKB is superior to ISO.

Offline dutC4

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:01:56 »
 :blank:
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2016, 16:06:43 by dutC4 »

Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:03:49 »
ANSI may be bad but at least its not near as bad as ISO  :p

10/10 arguments

Offline dutC4

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:04:40 »
 :blank:
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2016, 16:06:28 by dutC4 »

Offline natas206

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:05:44 »
It can be a real pain backspacing with your pinky.


Offline nubbinator

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:16:11 »
ISOs Caps Lock and Tab are both bigger than the left Shift and the Enter key is terrible. 

ANSI masterrace!

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 24 September 2015, 15:23:18 »
Disagree entirely. Anything other than ANSI makes my hands hurt (And I've given a ton of alternate layouts a decent shot).

It's all personal preference.

Agree! I use a combination. ANSI is bad?; well, I do not think so, it is not good either, it is just what we have.

Offline davkol

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 07:32:04 »
The OP makes no sense anyway.

Smaller distance between the left pinkie and the respective Shift key is irrelevant, because pinkie still has to be used? WTF? Then proceed to complain about something (sorry, I fail to parse that random cloud of words in the OP) with Backspace? The same argument about pinkie could be used in that area too:  shape and position of Enter/Return, backslash, right Shift and Backspace don't matter, because pinkie still has to be used. The rest of the post relies on the importance maintaining a relatively rare (and apparently quite obsolete in mass-produced keyboards) dual-color scheme… like if that mattered.

Meanwhile, there are actual technical issues, such as stabilization of the obscure shape of JIS/ISO Enter/Return keys.

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:18:06 »
The OP makes no sense anyway.

Smaller distance between the left pinkie and the respective Shift key is irrelevant, because pinkie still has to be used? WTF? Then proceed to complain about something (sorry, I fail to parse that random cloud of words in the OP) with Backspace? The same argument about pinkie could be used in that area too:  shape and position of Enter/Return, backslash, right Shift and Backspace don't matter, because pinkie still has to be used. The rest of the post relies on the importance maintaining a relatively rare (and apparently quite obsolete in mass-produced keyboards) dual-color scheme… like if that mattered.

Meanwhile, there are actual technical issues, such as stabilization of the obscure shape of JIS/ISO Enter/Return keys.

What do you mean by obscure shape?; or, is there some sort of design code that requires all the keys to be rectangular?

Offline davkol

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:41:23 »
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:44:01 »
I'm just gonna quote myself.

But taking both standard layout ISO> ANSI.
Improved ANSI ala HHKB is superior to ISO.


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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:48:14 »
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:50:56 »
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Same, never had a problem with my ISO enters.
I'm more annoyed by the wobbly 1.75u keys. Even if I love my split Rshift.

Offline davkol

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 09:58:01 »
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Logic mofo do you speak it?

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 10:01:06 »
The overlapping 0.25x part causes stabilization issues on some keyboards; it's somewhat similar to *non-stabilized* larger keys on Cherry ML or even MX: grinding or sticking. It isn't nearly as bad as the big-ass/AT Enter/Return key, but still…

…and then, so many keycap manufacturers don't even have the molds.

Mine has clipped Cherry stabs, and it does not stick, neither grind, it feels just as any of the non stabilized keys.

Same, never had a problem with my ISO enters.
I'm more annoyed by the wobbly 1.75u keys. Even if I love my split Rshift.

That happened to me also, I even decided to keep the long 2.75u right shift, instead. Also the key was hard to type on.

Offline ajx

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:40:15 »
I am french and i use ansi over iso because it even makes more sense to type french on ANSI lol  ;D
On ANSI, all your fingers dont have to move too far even for making accent,
Alpha/numbers are being accessible without using shift while you have to toggle shift on ISO
While Comma is accessible without using shift, Period does, these keys are commonly used
By the way, ANSI makes more sense in smaller format such as 60%/TKL which haven't a dedicated numpad
Shift + Alpha/numbers, cmon  :-[
I would love if in the future, french children learn from their earliest childhood, to type on qwerty ANSI
ISO (AZERTY) should be banned in France  ;D
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:43:07 by ajx »

Offline azhdar

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 19:43:30 »
I am french and i use ansi over iso because it even makes more sense to type french on ANSI lol  ;D
On ANSI, all your fingers dont have to move too far even for making accent,
Alpha/numbers are being accessible without using shift while you have to toggle shift on ISO
While Comma is accessible without using shift, Period does, these keys are commonly used
By the way, ANSI makes more sense in smaller format such as 60%/TKL which haven't a dedicated numpad
Shift + Alpha/numbers, cmon  :-[
I would love if next future, french children learn from their earliest childhood, to type on qwerty ANSI
ISO (AZERTY) should be banned in France  ;D


How do you deal with the missing key? the "< > " right next to Lshift?

Offline ajx

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 20:02:41 »
Lshift + ''<>'' lol
Not a big deal



Offline dutC4

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 25 September 2015, 20:31:01 »
 :blank:
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2016, 16:02:15 by dutC4 »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:23:21 »
ISO (but with a full-size left shift key) is okay... but you need to remap the keys in software: move all the right-hand letters one key to the right, and cycle the symbols thus displaced into the middle column (or adjust to match your own preferences).

Otherwise, standard ISO is death. Return and left shift are placed in godawful locations, and the extra added keys are pretty much worthless.

But the better answer is: all these standard-ish keyboard layouts are ****ing terrible.

Offline jd29

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:31:51 »
I just don't understand the Big Ass Enter key.

I only use left shift and never touch the right shift.

I love the HHKB layout more then any layout out atm. takes a couple days to stop hitting the | key instead of the backspace. but other then that HHKB layout for lyfe.

If only the realforce shared the same 60% layout =(((

Big ass enter lets me fling my hand towards the keyboard like an uncoordinated brute to get through dialogue boxes, and hit the key every time. Also, big ass is best ass.

Offline jd29

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 28 September 2015, 19:32:05 »
-double post-

Offline Oobly

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 05:15:59 »
All standard layouts are crap to varying degrees (underused thumbs, overloaded pinkies, asymmetry of distances, etc), but we're used to them, so we use them.

I prefer that ANSI Enter is closer to my fingers than ISO, I prefer the more symmetric layout and the universal keycap set support. The last point alone is worth switching to ANSI.

ISO layouts have crap placement of important characters for coding, like (,),-,_,=,+,[,],{,},;,\, etc... they're all nicely accessible in ANSI without having to resort to weird AltGr combinations. I hate using Alt/AltGr for anything as it's positioned too far from both the thumbs and the pinkies to be used comfortably for any combinations. Short left Shift is stupid (have to stretch for all capitals and number key symbols can be a pain). It's because of this that I only use the right Shift.

Best layout = custom layout, but ANSI is definitely better than ISO in everything except number of keys.
Buying more keycaps,
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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 07:12:37 »
ANSO with US International is the best all around.

Offline Data

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 19:37:24 »
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.

Other than that, perfect.

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 19:39:03 »
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.

Not really, it looks nice under an ISO enter in an ANSO layout.

 :p

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:02:52 »
The only thing wrong with ANSI is the HUGE right Shift.
Yep. The right shift is stupid. Not only is it crazy big, it’s also 1.5 keys away from the home position.

No key on the keyboard except maybe certain thumb keys should be larger than 1.5x1 units.

Here’s about the best you can with a layout while maintaining (a) standard row stagger and positions for the alphabetnumeric keys and (b) all the keys from a TKL board, and (c) a standard single-piece grid-like design:

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:13:49 »
Sorry, but You couldn't pay me to use that layout jacobolus.  some of it is nice, but those shift keys are awful and any chained Ctrl+whatever command would be pretty clunky to do.  One of my more commonly used commands (and common for any IT professional) is Ctrl+Shift+Esc.  I do not see a comfortable way to hit that with that board.  I'd have to use my thumb on control and try and strike shift and esc with my pinky and ring fingers.

Offline PunksDead

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:14:20 »
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king
don't come to my funeral, there wont be one

Offline digi

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Re: Why ANSI is bad (explained in one image)
« Reply #49 on: Fri, 02 October 2015, 20:17:30 »
ISO rules, I can slam my entire fist on the giant enter key when buying ****.

Makes me feel like a king

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