Author Topic: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop  (Read 88352 times)

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #350 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 08:44:15 »
Those tops look great !

Thanks.


Logan's a lovely machine.  How big is it*?

No reason why you couldn't make your own collet chuck for it.  If your 3-jaw chuck is tired, you can improvise a certain amount of the machining on the mill, and for the screwcutting side of things it's possible, but annoying, to shim stuff in a 3-jaw to get it close enough to concentric as long as you have a comparator.  Something like this, perhaps, but adapted for the collets you already have on the mill?

http://warhammer.mcc.virginia.edu/ty/7x10/collet-chuck.pdf

*
Show Image

(only brits will get this, I suspect)



You've given me direction and hope! I think it's an 11x36. I'll check when I'm back in the shop. I think a collet adapter would make a world of difference for it but  I'm not sure that the R8 collets will fit in the spindle bore. I'll check that also.

It did come with 2–4 jaw chucks of difference sizes but I'm a bit intimidated by them not being self centering. I know that they are potentially more accurate than a 3 jaw though.

BTW, where did you get that picture of me?

I'd be honoured to do the firmware in EasyAVR, what are you using as the controller?

I'm blown away and honored (US English spelling) by your willingness to help out. Thanks. I'll probably continue using a teensy 2.0 unless you have a better suggestion. I haven't burned the main PCB's yet so I'm flexible. Will you need a matrix layout from me?

Now for more pictures.

I wasn't looking forward to burning my fingers sanding the caps down so I made some simple wooden jigs out of a scrap of beech.
147368-0

What a difference. Perfect depth and all remaining fingers intact.
147370-1

I used the disc sander to clean up the 50 grit finish from the belt sander.
147378-2

The aluminum is stuck in the wood and too hot to touch so I ended up making another jig for the remaining caps. I had an even finer belt on the horizontal belt sander, so I further refined the cap bottoms on it.
147380-3147374-4

The caps had to be pounded into the jig with a dead blow mallet so removing them was easiest done by ripping away excess wood then splitting the jigs apart with a chisel.
147376-5

A little deburring and some sandblasting and they should be ready for the anodize tank.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 September 2016, 08:55:13 by kurplop »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #351 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 11:03:23 »
I'd be honoured to do the firmware in EasyAVR, what are you using as the controller?

I'm blown away and honored (US English spelling) by your willingness to help out. Thanks. I'll probably continue using a teensy 2.0 unless you have a better suggestion. I haven't burned the main PCB's yet so I'm flexible. Will you need a matrix layout from me?

Can't go wrong with a Teensy :thumb:

Were you thinking of making it a 6x12 matrix with the thumb keys and joystick buttons  on the bottom of the normal columns or 6x14 with the thumb keys attached to the buttons as their own columns?  Either way the ring looks like two columns of 6, I'll put the top switch in the column on the QWERTY side (not sure if you think from the top or bottom - could get confusing!)
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Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #352 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 12:05:00 »
I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of your sandblasting setup. Right now mine is a tupperware container with old sweatshirt arms in it :)

And do you have anything beyond the usual dust masks to keep that crap out of your lungs?

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #353 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 12:22:29 »
You've given me direction and hope! I think it's an 11x36. I'll check when I'm back in the shop. I think a collet adapter would make a world of difference for it but  I'm not sure that the R8 collets will fit in the spindle bore. I'll check that also.

It did come with 2–4 jaw chucks of difference sizes but I'm a bit intimidated by them not being self centering. I know that they are potentially more accurate than a 3 jaw though.
For accuracy, apart from collets, you really can't go wrong with a 4-jaw and a comparator.  Needs a bit of practice, of course, but don't be afraid of it.

R8 collets aren't going to fit directly into your spindle bore, and the type of design I linked to earlier isn't going to work "out of the box" as it's for externally threaded collets.  You'd probably need 3 parts for an internally threaded collet.

If the intertubes fail me not, your best bet is to get (if you don't already have one) an adaptor from the proprietary taper in the spindle down to MT3 (probably still available from Logan, but if not you could make one yourself), and then a set of relatively cheap "industry standard" MT3 collets would fit.

BTW, where did you get that picture of me?
http://viz.co.uk/category/cartoons/strip-cartoons/finbarr-saunders/

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #354 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 16:35:44 »
Can't go wrong with a Teensy :thumb:

Were you thinking of making it a 6x12 matrix with the thumb keys and joystick buttons  on the bottom of the normal columns or 6x14 with the thumb keys attached to the buttons as their own columns?  Either way the ring looks like two columns of 6, I'll put the top switch in the column on the QWERTY side (not sure if you think from the top or bottom - could get confusing!)

Here's what I had in mind. What do you think?
* PLANET 6 MATRIX .pdf (62.24 kB - downloaded 87 times.)
I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of your sandblasting setup. Right now mine is a tupperware container with old sweatshirt arms in it :)

And do you have anything beyond the usual dust masks to keep that crap out of your lungs?

My sandblasting cabinet is a cheap Harbor Freight style unit. I don't have it hooked to a dust collector because it puts out such a pathetic volume it doesn't seem to migrate out much. I'm looking into a upgrade kit that may necessitate something to improve air quality. I don't tend to be too paranoid about such things for myself. I was much more concerned about my crew's health than my own back before I went solo.

I think your Tupperware set up would be far more interesting to see. ;)


For accuracy, apart from collets, you really can't go wrong with a 4-jaw and a comparator.  Needs a bit of practice, of course, but don't be afraid of it.

R8 collets aren't going to fit directly into your spindle bore, and the type of design I linked to earlier isn't going to work "out of the box" as it's for externally threaded collets.  You'd probably need 3 parts for an internally threaded collet.

If the intertubes fail me not, your best bet is to get (if you don't already have one) an adaptor from the proprietary taper in the spindle down to MT3 (probably still available from Logan, but if not you could make one yourself), and then a set of relatively cheap "industry standard" MT3 collets would fit.


I think the MT3 route makes a lot of sense. I may even have a few pieces for it in the cabinet that came with the lathe. I don't know what half of the pieces are for.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #355 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 17:23:11 »
Love seeing the continued evolution of this board! I really want to get back into a machine shop now  :rolleyes:

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #356 on: Sun, 04 September 2016, 19:15:41 »
Here's what I had in mind. What do you think?
(Attachment Link)

Looks good to me, I hadn't taken into account the mouse buttons being completely separate so that's a bonus (routing to the edge columns would have been a bit messy)

I'm missing a couple of keys but the firmware's pretty much done, hopefully the missing keys are at the bottom...

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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #357 on: Mon, 05 September 2016, 13:06:29 »
Love seeing the continued evolution of this board! I really want to get back into a machine shop now  :rolleyes:

There's nothing as satisfying as progress.
Here's what I had in mind. What do you think?
(Attachment Link)

Looks good to me, I hadn't taken into account the mouse buttons being completely separate so that's a bonus (routing to the edge columns would have been a bit messy)

I'm missing a couple of keys but the firmware's pretty much done, hopefully the missing keys are at the bottom...

Show Image


That was quick. Many thanks for taking this on. What is the next step?



This morning I thought it was time to figure out how to make the plunger feet for the key ring switches.

Desperate for some flat, thin brass or copper stock, I cut a surplus piece of 3/4" copper pipe and flattened it. I then cut it into pieces <1/4" square. I then soldered them to the brass tube. I just used standard solder. I didn't think it would require much strength, not being under excessive stress in use.
147448-0

This is the idea. The plunger will push the switch but not be attached to it.
147450-1

The stems were mounted to a Dremel and turned to a less offensive more pleasing shape using a file and sandpaper to shape them.
147452-2

The stem fits snugly into the previously drilled hole in the cap. For final assembly, I will use some kind of cement to permanently attach them. Any suggestions? I was thinking something strong but able to be removed, if necessary, with heat.
147454-3

3 of the 12 pieces came off during the turning operation. I was concerned at first but realized that they came off during the later stage of turning. I think there was enough heat generated by then at the center to soften the solder. If the connections were weak, they would have surely come off at the beginning when the pieces were square and subject to the greatest shock and torque. They also came off on later pieces. I got more aggressive with the cuts then = more heat.
147456-4

The feet aren't exactly the same size, in fact some didn't end up completely round, but they should work fine. I need to trim the stems a bit to get the caps to the right height. Other than that, the entire keyring assembly is ready for sandblasting and anodizing.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 September 2016, 19:04:22 by kurplop »

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #358 on: Mon, 05 September 2016, 14:30:10 »
The stem fits snugly into the previously drilled hole in the cap. For final assembly, I will use some kind of cement to permanently attach them. Any suggestions? I was thinking something strong but able to be removed, if necessary, with heat.
If you have access, Loctite 603 bearing locker would be killer, if perhaps a little overkill.  Not sure how much heat it takes to break a bond, though.  We use a 60 tonne press, that's certainly overkill.

Probably the best / cheapest / most available bet would be standard low-viscosity superglue, which will creep into your joint via capillary action - and if you ever need to remove it, acetone, which is probably what you want to clean the surfaces with first anyway.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 September 2016, 14:31:54 by tufty »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #359 on: Mon, 05 September 2016, 17:29:09 »
The stem fits snugly into the previously drilled hole in the cap. For final assembly, I will use some kind of cement to permanently attach them. Any suggestions? I was thinking something strong but able to be removed, if necessary, with heat.
If you have access, Loctite 603 bearing locker would be killer, if perhaps a little overkill.  Not sure how much heat it takes to break a bond, though.  We use a 60 tonne press, that's certainly overkill.

Probably the best / cheapest / most available bet would be standard low-viscosity superglue, which will creep into your joint via capillary action - and if you ever need to remove it, acetone, which is probably what you want to clean the surfaces with first anyway.

I'll check out the spec's for the Loctite. I don't think my caps would survive anything more than 50 tons though.:p  My first thought was low viscosity super glue but I don't think the acetone will work because it will be inaccessible after installed. That's why I was thinking a heat release adhesive. My guess is that the super glue would probably release at about 350º anyways. What do you think?

You inspired me to investigate what exactly was hidden in the lathe cabinet. It actually came pretty well equipped. A steady rest, following rest, about 15 long morse taper drills from about 1/2" to 1"–all sharp, dogs, a fair amount of boring bars and other tooling, and imagine this–

A collet drawbar!
147475-0
It only came with a 5/8" collet but it's a start. Does that look like a MT 2 or 3 to you? I also mounted one of the 6" 4 jaw chucks, there were 2 of them plus, I think a 10" 4 jaw as well. I guess it's time to learn how to center work in them.


And now to address the thumb key mounts


I hadn't thought through exactly how to mount the thumb clusters when I was milling away at the case so I have to clean up some details with that now.
The problem is that I don't have a flat surface by the mounts to secure them to. I knew this was coming when I was cutting away many months ago but, in truth, it was too much to try to envision at that time. I didn't have the exact placement of things in stone because I wanted the flexibility to change some things to better meet my ergo concerns. That said, the first step was to make an impression of the space between the mount (plate) and the body.I had to secure the keys in place so I'd have a good reference points to work from. I used thick double sided tape and masking tape to make the caps an integrated unit. I then hot glued the assembly to the body.
147477-1

I used some old Bondo for the impression material, first putting a release on the body so it wouldn't bond the 2 surfaces together then forcing it under the plate, hoping it would fill in but not go too far into the keys. I then trimmed away some of the excess.
147479-2

When I disassembled the parts I realized that I didn't have to worry about them sticking together after all. They were dirty and oily enough without the release agent that they barely held to either piece.
147481-3
It is probably best that the Bondo didn't stick. It should make it easier to make more accurate measurements on the next step, which is making the new 3 dimensional plates.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 September 2016, 19:07:08 by kurplop »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #360 on: Mon, 05 September 2016, 18:30:00 »
Love seeing the continued evolution of this board! I really want to get back into a machine shop now  :rolleyes:

There's nothing as satisfying as progress.
Here's what I had in mind. What do you think?
(Attachment Link)

Looks good to me, I hadn't taken into account the mouse buttons being completely separate so that's a bonus (routing to the edge columns would have been a bit messy)

I'm missing a couple of keys but the firmware's pretty much done, hopefully the missing keys are at the bottom...


That was quick. Many thanks for taking this on. What is the next step?

Adding the missing keys might be a good start :))  Then I'll check it thoroughly (was hungover and working on it last thing at night...) add some random pins and compile, flash and test - if all goes well I send you the config and you'll just need to change the pins and save it in the right place then it will show up in the EasyAVR gui so you can finish the keymap and configure macros etc, I'll be around if you have any questions :)

Those shiny plungers look really good, it's almost a shame to hide them!
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #361 on: Mon, 05 September 2016, 19:03:24 »

Adding the missing keys might be a good start :))  Then I'll check it thoroughly (was hungover and working on it last thing at night...) add some random pins and compile, flash and test - if all goes well I send you the config and you'll just need to change the pins and save it in the right place then it will show up in the EasyAVR gui so you can finish the keymap and configure macros etc, I'll be around if you have any questions :)

Those shiny plungers look really good, it's almost a shame to hide them!

Don't knock yourself out, It will be weeks before I need it. I can't thank you enough for your assistance. I'm completely lost in that arena. I'm thinking about etching your name somewhere on the keyboard along with some of the other contributors.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #362 on: Tue, 06 September 2016, 13:53:45 »
My first thought was low viscosity super glue but I don't think the acetone will work because it will be inaccessible after installed. That's why I was thinking a heat release adhesive. My guess is that the super glue would probably release at about 350º anyways. What do you think?
Yah, I think superglue lets go at around that sort of temperature. Acetone is good for eating superglue, though, and once it's dissolved it, it will creep into the gaps as well, I would have thought.  Might take longer, than you'd expect, of course.  If I have time tomorrow I'll give it a test.


You inspired me to investigate what exactly was hidden in the lathe cabinet. … It only came with a 5/8" collet but it's a start. Does that look like a MT 2 or 3 to you?
No, it doesn't.  Looks too short to be morse.  The lathes.co.uk page for logan reckons a proprietary (but close to 3MT) taper for the 11" model, but in any case it shouldn't really matter for collets as long as the collet drawbar matches the spindle taper.  What you're really interested in is the collets themselves, and if you have one of them, you should be able to work out what they are.

As a hint, the answer is probably "5C", which is good news as 5C is very common, but bad news in that they don't have a very wide clamping capacity per collet, so you need a bigger set.



good haul, though.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #363 on: Tue, 06 September 2016, 14:01:32 »
Yessssssssssss kurplop is feeling better and he unleashed a torrent, a deluge even, of machining porn. Absolutely loving all the pictures and the details about the progress. Really makes me wish I had a lathe/mill at home.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #364 on: Tue, 06 September 2016, 22:18:13 »
My first thought was low viscosity super glue but I don't think the acetone will work because it will be inaccessible after installed. That's why I was thinking a heat release adhesive. My guess is that the super glue would probably release at about 350º anyways. What do you think?
Yah, I think superglue lets go at around that sort of temperature. Acetone is good for eating superglue, though, and once it's dissolved it, it will creep into the gaps as well, I would have thought.  Might take longer, than you'd expect, of course.  If I have time tomorrow I'll give it a test.


You inspired me to investigate what exactly was hidden in the lathe cabinet. … It only came with a 5/8" collet but it's a start. Does that look like a MT 2 or 3 to you?
No, it doesn't.  Looks too short to be morse.  The lathes.co.uk page for logan reckons a proprietary (but close to 3MT) taper for the 11" model, but in any case it shouldn't really matter for collets as long as the collet drawbar matches the spindle taper.  What you're really interested in is the collets themselves, and if you have one of them, you should be able to work out what they are.

As a hint, the answer is probably "5C", which is good news as 5C is very common, but bad news in that they don't have a very wide clamping capacity per collet, so you need a bigger set.

Show Image


good haul, though.


Well that settles it. If tufty says super glue, then super glue it is.

I hope it is a 5C but I think it's too small to be that. Another thing to check when I get back to the shop.

Yessssssssssss kurplop is feeling better and he unleashed a torrent, a deluge even, of machining porn. Absolutely loving all the pictures and the details about the progress. Really makes me wish I had a lathe/mill at home.

I've been saving up for a long time.


Thumb key mounts.

Well, it took a while to make them but I think I ended up with some respectable mounts for the thumb clusters.
147582-0  147584-1
You can tell how much of an arc there is in the underside of the shell by the curve in the mounts. Notice that I pre-milled an area out of the center of the part that actually seats into the keyboard shell. This was to simplify the fitting process by having less to have to grind off.

The switches and caps fit great after a little adjusting. I hot glued the assembly into the keyboard during fabrication to check the fit. The caps still need a little work but they are close to being done.
147586-2

All of the "mockup" switches will get trashed because of the abuse they've suffered through the design/fabrication process.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 September 2016, 07:43:39 by kurplop »

Offline iFreilicht

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #365 on: Fri, 09 September 2016, 23:03:54 »
Wow, this is one heck of a build-log! You're doing amazing work, keep it up!
Sentraq S60-X, dyed blank PBT keycaps, Gateron Browns

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #366 on: Sat, 10 September 2016, 11:43:53 »
Wow, this is one heck of a build-log! You're doing amazing work, keep it up!

Thanks and welcome to the GH family. This is a great place to get all of your keyboard questions answered.

 I sometimes wonder of I'm simply overindulging my keyboard obsession posting all of these details. I decided it's better to risk giving too many details than too few. Readers can choose to follow or not and I know from experience how helpful markers can be for anyone else following the same trail.

The Project
I haven't posted anything in a few days but I've been far from inactive on the project. I've been experimenting on alternative alpha keys and what I've come up with is looking promising but not quite ready for primetime. Hope to have something up soon, good or bad.


Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #367 on: Sat, 10 September 2016, 13:42:33 »
I have a little project on the go that you might appreciate, mr kurplop.

I need a drilling attachment for my cross slide.  I have a milling attachment, which has a spindle with #1 morse taper for toolholding.  So I figured I'd make myself a 1MT chuck adaptor for the makita chuck I have lying about, but then started thinking more in terms of turning up a set of 1MT collets.  So I've taken a piece of rusty old steel "for shoeing donkeys", as they say around here, rigged up the compound, and have almost finished making it into a 1MT blank...

Photos tomorrow, probably.

BTW, if your collets are really short, they might be F23.
« Last Edit: Sat, 10 September 2016, 13:46:00 by tufty »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #368 on: Sat, 10 September 2016, 16:01:06 »
I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures..

I have the original Logan owners manual somewhere. It may help to unravel the mystery of collet X.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #369 on: Sun, 11 September 2016, 08:34:44 »
Moved to its own thread to avoid further polluting yours.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84627.0

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #370 on: Sun, 11 September 2016, 19:18:56 »
Moved to its own thread to avoid further polluting yours.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84627.0

I don't mind. No, I actually enjoy it. I've managed to get off track many times on this thread. Everything from welding, Ceracote, stolen trailers, tool purchases, missing fingers,anodizing, inviting the ladies to see my etchings, surgeries, gripes with City Hall, and vacations, to actually discussing the topic. It's all relevant, one way or another.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #371 on: Fri, 16 September 2016, 20:11:54 »
I've been secretive about what I've been up to because I didn't want to lead anyone else down a rabbit hole until I knew there was something there to show for it.

For some time I've been a real advocate for reduced vertical spacing between keys. I've made my own projects much more complicated in order to include this feature and while I in no way regret it, the hurdles probably have doubled the effort involved in building this keyboard. The most obvious complication is sourcing caps that will accommodate a .75"x.65" spacing. They don't exist.  After committing to make my own caps, the next obstacle was making a cap that will be small enough and still be able to house the top of a commercial switch. It's possible to do this with either Cherry or Matias switches but with unpredictably tight clearances. A third problem I discovered is that by tightening up the vertical spacing, the shape of the cap becomes critical to avoid accidentally hitting the cap below while striking the intended one. You may ask, "How can that be, many laptops have reduced pitches without issue.".  True but the laptop switches have a very short travel. This makes isolating strikes much easier.  After several unsatisfactory experiments, I decided to abort the plan to use Matias switches. While the cutout size for the Matias is more suitable, in practice the vertical upper switch walls make a small cap design difficult to accomplish. 

Knowing  how much I like the action of the modified ML's in the keyring, I wondered if I could do something similar with the rest of the switches. After all, the use of independent plungers eliminate the biggest complaint lodged against the ML– sticky off center presses. As a bonus, the shorter travel not only helps reduce hitting multiple keys but I actually prefer the shorter throw. I did some simple tests on the cap design I envisioned and it worked surprisingly well. So I decided to commit myself to it.

Key caps and the world's thickest keyboard plate


I began by making what looks like a a keyboard plate on steroids. It s actually a housing for the caps which will float freely within the pockets.
148488-0

All cleaned up and no place to go.
148490-1

The caps beginning to take shape.
148492-2

Refining the arcs on the caps
148494-3
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 September 2016, 20:21:38 by kurplop »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #372 on: Fri, 16 September 2016, 20:22:49 »
The top chamfers get a similar treatment on the belt sander.
148504-0


And here's how they work. The thick cap holders allow enough depth to let the caps move freely without any binding– believe me, I've tried. The cap stem will not fit into the switch but float above, like on the keyring. The ledges on the caps keep the caps contained in the keyboard.
148496-1
If they end up wearing or developing problems, I can let in the sides and add self adhesive teflon strips but why mess with that now?


The caps float in the pockets so they may not be perfectly centered. With a black finish I don't think that it will be noticeable.
148498-2
The home row is about a sixteenth of an inch lower than the others. about half of the caps are angled specific to the exact placement. That 's why they're labeled.

Here they are pressed into the keyboard body. A few minor gaps but after the edges are properly dressed I think they won't be too distracting.
148500-3



Have a nice weekend!
« Last Edit: Fri, 16 September 2016, 20:26:50 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #373 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 01:35:34 »
Wow. The caps floating inside deep chambers is very cool. I might just need to steal that idea for my next build whenever that comes. Opens the door to be able to use all sorts of switches. Might get a microswitch keyboard built after all.

Congrats on not compromising. This keyboard has surpassed my expectations.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #374 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 01:52:46 »
Ho.  Lee.  Fook.

That's awesome.  I'd be kinda worried about the mass of the caps myself, and "graunchiness" from the alu/alu sliding interface.  Still, if you don't try...  How much do your caps weigh compared to a "standard" cap?

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #375 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 03:41:53 »
Ooh, shiny!  Glad it worked, must have taken a while to cut that 'plate' :eek:
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Offline StickyBlueJuice

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #376 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 04:40:16 »
Ooh, shiny!
Yes it is! :D
Nice work so far man, really interesting to see your progress.

How much do your caps weigh compared to a "standard" cap?
I'd be interested in knowing this as well.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #377 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 07:40:06 »
Wow. The caps floating inside deep chambers is very cool. I might just need to steal that idea for my next build whenever that comes. Opens the door to be able to use all sorts of switches. Might get a microswitch keyboard built after all.

Congrats on not compromising. This keyboard has surpassed my expectations.

Thanks. The floating system is showing promise though I'm not sure that it will be without roadblocks. The initial tests work surprisingly well. My concerns are wear, whether the anodizing process will affect friction, dirt entering and jamming the mechanism or settling on the retaining lips and changing the return height, the clack as the cap returns to the plate...  None of these were deal breakers or I wouldn't have gone ahead. This is almost as much an exercise in keyboard design as it is an end in itself.

Ho.  Lee.  Fook.


Translation needed


That's awesome.  I'd be kinda worried about the mass of the caps myself, and "graunchiness" from the alu/alu sliding interface.  Still, if you don't try...  How much do your caps weigh compared to a "standard" cap?

Thanks and I appreciate your concerns. Preliminary testing didn't produce what I expected– a sticky, noisy, grating experience. Makes me wonder why I tried it in the first place. I first cut a set of caps out of walnut. They probably felt and sounded better but my wife didn't like the look. She's my best critic.  I was also concerned about the surface degrading quickly.


How much do your caps weigh compared to a "standard" cap?
I'd be interested in knowing this as well.


 148563-0148565-1148567-2

I weighed several caps and I found the average plastic cap is roughly 1g. I did find some in my collection that were over 2 grams.  My aluminum caps are between 3.5  and 4 grams, depending on the profile. Before I hollowed out the insides, the aluminum caps weighed 9 grams.  The keyring buttons w/brass rods came in at 2.36g and the walnut caps were 2.5g. The ML is pretty well sprung for a small switch and handles them all well. Given the springs compression resistance 45+grams, I don't think weight is the problem.

If the aluminum to aluminum proves to be an issue, casting resin caps or teflon strips would be my next step. Milling the plates out of teflon could be an option also.

Ooh, shiny!  Glad it worked, must have taken a while to cut that 'plate' :eek:

The shine is striking but impractical. It will be sandblasted to a matte finish before anodizing. After all, I must retain my respectable image.

I am guessing that I have about 6–8 hours in the "plate". If I was more proficient on the mill I think I could cut that time in half.



Your responses are much appreciated. Without them, I feel like I'm just singing to myself in the shower.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #378 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 08:43:05 »
Ooh, shiny!  Glad it worked, must have taken a while to cut that 'plate' :eek:

The shine is striking but impractical. It will be sandblasted to a matte finish before anodizing. After all, I must retain my respectable image.

I am guessing that I have about 6–8 hours in the "plate". If I was more proficient on the mill I think I could cut that time in half.

It didn't look overly shiny in the pics - looked really good in fact.  Probably not so good when there's a monitor reflecting into your eyes though...


Inspired by the progress I've added the missing keys and tweaked the layout slightly to better match the physical layout previewed.



You only have one key left on the right hand for [ and ] though - hopefully you don't plan to code or browse the forum on this board as that would surely be confusing!


The more I see in this thread the more I want to get a mill and have a go but it seems like something where some knowledge and experience would be good before spending a significant amount of money on a machine I cannot use and wouldn't know if it was broken :-\
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #379 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 11:22:39 »
I read a couple of books on machining to get some of the basics down. Then it's just practice. I don't mean to suggest that machining is simple. Machinists spend a lifetime in metallurgy and feel like they are just scratching the surface. Fortunately for me, holding loose tolerances in aluminum is all I need for this kind of work and I don't have to watch the clock. Someday I'd like to try CNC milling but really enjoy this hands on stuff for now.

Thanks for following up on the firmware work. I'll be bugging you in a few weeks after I get a few more of these things out of the way.
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 September 2016, 21:42:42 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #380 on: Sat, 17 September 2016, 14:16:14 »
suicidal_orange: Having owned both a standard mill (with hand cranks) and a CNC mill, I can say machining aluminum is a hundred times easier on the CNC since feedrate is so important. Kurplop is an artisan whose results on a standard mill won't be replicable without a ton of practice, wasted material, and expensive tooling. I'd recommend a cheaper CNC router which will handle light aluminum cuts, wood, and acrylic just fine, rather than spending the same amount of money on a hefty mill that is needed for harder metals that you may never want to cut. There's been a few people with CNC routers on here (or that *other * KB forum, I can't remember) doing some cool keycaps with a CNC router out of wood.

Kurplop: What media do you like to use to get the matte finish on the aluminum? I can't wait to see how things turn out.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #381 on: Sun, 18 September 2016, 04:41:24 »
Kurplop is an artisan whose results on a standard mill won't be replicable without a ton of practice, wasted material, and expensive tooling.
I'd just like to echo this.  He's enormously humble about what he's doing, but it's, quite frankly, frickin' astounding.  I've not seen *anyone* else get results like that from a hand cranked mill.

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #382 on: Sun, 18 September 2016, 04:47:56 »
Given the springs compression resistance 45+grams, I don't think weight is the problem.
It wasn't weight WRT spring compression I was worried about, more about inertia of moving the extra mass about making it hard on the hands.  Sounds like you're in the ballpark, though, "time will tell".

If the aluminum to aluminum proves to be an issue, casting resin caps or teflon strips would be my next step. Milling the plates out of teflon could be an option also.
Teflon strips would be my approach, too, but that depends how you'd be going about doing it.  Knowing you it would be 4 individually machined strips per key in custom cut slots, amirite?

Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #383 on: Sun, 18 September 2016, 08:46:16 »
I read a couple of books on machining to get some of the basics down. Then it's just practice. I don't mean to suggest that machining is simple. Machinists spend a lifetime in metallurgy and feel like they are just scratching the surface. Fortunately for me, holding loose tolerances in aluminum is all I need for this kind of work and I don't have to watch the clock. Someday I'd like to try CNC milling but really enjoy this hands on stuff for now.
Hmm... reading something can't hurt though it's far from my best way of learning.   Much like you I like the sound of hands on - sending a design to a CNC is just a quicker (noisier and messier...) version of sending it to a company to do it for you.  Though you can watch which is fun.  And instant prototyping...

I guess loose tolerances are relative - you may not be in the 20 micron accuracy range offered by a relatively cheap CNC but half a mm is pretty damn small in the real world and you're well below that!

Kurplop is an artisan whose results on a standard mill won't be replicable without a ton of practice, wasted material, and expensive tooling.
I'd just like to echo this.  He's enormously humble about what he's doing, but it's, quite frankly, frickin' astounding.  I've not seen *anyone* else get results like that from a hand cranked mill.
Then I read this and wonder what the chances are I'll get within a whole mm consistently :))

Even if I were to buy a CNC I'd still need something to finish the pieces made else they'd be covered in semi-random swirls, right?


Given the springs compression resistance 45+grams, I don't think weight is the problem.
It wasn't weight WRT spring compression I was worried about, more about inertia of moving the extra mass about making it hard on the hands.  Sounds like you're in the ballpark, though, "time will tell".
Wouldn't a heavier cap make it easier on the hands as gravity will help?
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #384 on: Sun, 18 September 2016, 17:22:43 »
Kurplop: What media do you like to use to get the matte finish on the aluminum? I can't wait to see how things turn out.

The short answer is "I don't know". 

 I bought a used sandblasting cabinet a couple years ago complete with media. It produced a great finish on the AlumaPlop but the performance was miserable. I had a portable unit (also bought used) that I tried when I was blasting the thumb cluster plates and that thing really put out the product. In fact, it made me realize why you asked about dust control. The result was possibly a bit too rough but I'll have to wait till anodizing and dyeing to know for sure. Again, the media came with the tool. I just bought some 70 grit aluminum oxide to experiment with. It might be too rough but we'll see.  I am also considering ground glass 80/40 if the alox doesn't work. I've been warned to avoid anything that could get stuck in the aluminum and react during the anodizing phase. I'll keep you posted.

Kurplop is an artisan whose results on a standard mill won't be replicable without a ton of practice, wasted material, and expensive tooling.
I'd just like to echo this.  He's enormously humble about what he's doing, but it's, quite frankly, frickin' astounding.  I've not seen *anyone* else get results like that from a hand cranked mill.

You guys are making me blush but I'm truly appreciative of your comments given both of your talents and knowledge. Truth is, I got the project this far because of a lot of practice, wasted material and expensive tooling. Oh yeah, patience too.

Teflon strips would be my approach, too, but that depends how you'd be going about doing it.  Knowing you it would be 4 individually machined strips per key in custom cut slots, amirite?

You gotitpal.
* TEFLON STRIP INSERT.pdf (9.7 kB - downloaded 73 times.)

I guess loose tolerances are relative - you may not be in the 20 micron accuracy range offered by a relatively cheap CNC but half a mm is pretty damn small in the real world and you're well below that!
Even if I were to buy a CNC I'd still need something to finish the pieces made else they'd be covered in semi-random swirls, right?

You got me looking up metric to inch conversion ratios for that one. Forgive me for being from the US, one of the 3 countries still recalcitrantly clutching on to inches.

My mill has a DRO on the X and Y axis which has an acuity of 20/100,000th of an inch which, if my conversion is correct, is roughly 4 times more accurate than 20 microns. When I'm doing critical cuts I try to hold it to that but sometimes just the process of locking down the table will want to move it. Many times it just isn't that critical. Having the spindle 90º to the table is often the culprit for mis-cuts, especially with larger bits. Another thing I found out is just how important having the work firmly clamped to the table is. My mill has some sloppiness in the cranks, called backlash, but the DRO overcomes most of the measuring issues without a lot of skill.

I think the hardest thing which only came with practice for me is which way to turn the cranks. No big deal if you're starting a cut on an outer edge but another matter if you're in the corner of a pocket. Now it's almost second nature but earlier on I made more than a few bad cuts that way.

The fun part is the process of problem solving. It often involves which step to do next that will still leave a reference point or clamping point to work from next. If you like that you will find as much satisfaction in the doing as in the finished product.

No matter which way you go, CNC or manual, don't fool yourself; things always cost more than you estimate. Bits break, ruined material, that other tool you need to complete the operation, the list goes on. I was fortunate in having a lifetime of cabinetmaking and related tools plus the space to house them before my introduction to keyboards. Even with that, I've probably spent 7–8,000 dollars on, mostly used, tools specifically bought for this hobby. I've never been attracted to tool sharing co-ops but it may be a good direction to go for someone who want to get their hands on experience without breaking the bank.

The swirl problem can be just about eliminated with careful set up and slow feed rate. A little hand sanding or sandblasting will remove a quite a bit of that. I sometimes leave more knowing I have the tools to further refine the finish.

One thing I really like about many GHers is their love for learning and trying something today which was unimaginable to them yesterday.


Given the springs compression resistance 45+grams, I don't think weight is the problem.
It wasn't weight WRT spring compression I was worried about, more about inertia of moving the extra mass about making it hard on the hands.  Sounds like you're in the ballpark, though, "time will tell".
Wouldn't a heavier cap make it easier on the hands as gravity will help?


We talked about this briefly earlier in the thread. I agree that the extra mass will slow the responsiveness of the switches, therefore lighter is better. I don't think that a gram or two will be that noticable however. I'm more concerned about the thumb caps which, I'm guessing, are closer to 9 grams and are a bit slow; but that's for another discussion.

I'm going to miss you guys when this project is finished. It reminds me of a time about 20 years ago when I was stuck under a house for a few hours, the only connection with the outside world was a voice coming through a vent hole as I lay there in the darkness. Thanks for your help and support.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #385 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 03:23:13 »
sending a design to a CNC is just a quicker (noisier and messier...) version of sending it to a company to do it for you.

You don't understand how it works if you think you make the design and let your CNC do the rest. This isn't the thread for it, but it's not quick or easy. CAD is typically straightforward. CAM can be hell. And no CAM does your workholding (afaik).

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #386 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 03:42:38 »
I also would have looked toward sandblasting to get matte finish on aluminum.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #387 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 13:29:33 »
Teflon strips would be my approach, too, but that depends how you'd be going about doing it.  Knowing you it would be 4 individually machined strips per key in custom cut slots, amirite?

You gotitpal.
Bah, self-adhesive strips.  Lightweight!

It reminds me of a time about 20 years ago when I was stuck under a house for a few hours, the only connection with the outside world was a voice coming through a vent hole as I lay there in the darkness.
Was that voice asking "What the bloody hell are you doing under my house, you pervert?"

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #388 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 13:57:35 »
This is my sandblasting cabinet. I bought it used but it's just a cheap Harbor Freight style unit. I replaced the hose and gun and now it really pumps out the media. I have a shop vac sucking out the fine dust.
148684-0

I used pliers to hold the caps while blasting. The gloves are so clumsy that I found it more convenient to remove the left one and spray gloveless. The vacuum kept the stray dust from exiting the hole.
148686-1
I did 24 caps and the cap retainer in about 10 minutes.

This was part experiment and part production. The texture should anodize nicely and I'm going to go with it. It should pretty much mimic the look of the AlumaPlop.  The uniformity is a major plus with sandblasting. Many of the scratches and mill marks just disappear. Sandblasting is the Karl Marx of metal surfacing. It doesn't matter if they're rough or polished; they will all end up with the same in the end. (In theory)
148688-2
I'm thinking about the section of the cap sides that will be both exposed and rub on the retainer sides. Will the finish eventually degrade? I've ordered some teflon products that I will experiment with tomorrow.

I still need to cut a hole for the cable in the keyboard shell, tap a few more holes and flatten an area by the arcade buttons, then some final dressing and smoothing and it's to the blasting cabinet with the rest of the aluminum parts. Hopefully, but not completely realistically, I'll be anodizing this weekend.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #389 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 14:04:36 »

Bah, self-adhesive strips.  Lightweight!

I'm open to suggestions as long as they are complicated and extend the finish date substantially.




Was that voice asking "What the bloody hell are you doing under my house, you pervert?"


If my memory serves me right, it was saying "Don't freak out on me now".
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 September 2016, 14:10:22 by kurplop »

Offline tufty

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #390 on: Mon, 19 September 2016, 23:26:04 »

Bah, self-adhesive strips.  Lightweight!

I'm open to suggestions as long as they are complicated and extend the finish date substantially.
Re-cast the plate from zamak, machine spiral oil channels into each hole, and equip each key with a drip oiler.

Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #391 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 00:51:12 »


I'm open to suggestions as long as they are complicated and extend the finish date substantially.
Re-cast the plate from zamak, machine spiral oil channels into each hole, and equip each key with a drip oiler.

Efficient solution ! I like it :-D


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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #392 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 02:29:43 »
sending a design to a CNC is just a quicker (noisier and messier...) version of sending it to a company to do it for you.

You don't understand how it works if you think you make the design and let your CNC do the rest. This isn't the thread for it, but it's not quick or easy. CAD is typically straightforward. CAM can be hell. And no CAM does your workholding (afaik).

You're right I knew nothing when I wrote that - now I know very little instead so do please excuse my noobness :))  The first cnc I looked at (stepcraft) has a spindle that is able to change it's own cutters so in theory it is press go and wait, I've not found another with this though.  The setup may be a challenge but as a programmer I'd like to think I would get that part.

Workholding?  That must be more complicated than it sounds...

I'd make a thread if I knew what I needed to know, if the derails offend let me know and I'll split it :)
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #393 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 04:30:21 »
I'm open to suggestions as long as they are complicated and extend the finish date substantially.
Re-cast the plate from zamak, machine spiral oil channels into each hole, and equip each key with a drip oiler.
Efficient solution ! I like it :-D


I don't know why I didn't think of that. Not only does that meet my initial criteria, it also has the added benefit of requiring expensive and potentially dangerous casting equipment. I wonder if we could substitute the inexpensive zinc based zamak with unobtainium?



I'd make a thread if I knew what I needed to know, if the derails offend let me know and I'll split it :)

I'm good with it but I've been warned by the Moderators that we're dangerously close to being moved to Off Topics! :eek:

It's funny how our backgrounds govern what is difficult for us. Working around measuring devices and dirty environments made a manual mill a no brainer for me and CNC milling a great mystery. Those of you comfortable with programing may find the opposite to be true.


Inching my way toward completion

So I asked myself, "What are you waiting for? Why not just sandblast the rest of the parts that are ready?".  So I did. 
148752-0148754-1

Some of the pieces appear darker because they are wet. Overall, I'm happy with the results. I removed the brass bushings before blasting and will re-press them in after anodizing. I sanded the thumb caps down both to remove as much sprung weight as possible and to better match the aesthetics of the other caps. The outside caps are under 4 grams each and the center caps under 6 grams. Still heavier than desired but down from 6.5 to 9 grams each.

I narrowed the color scheme down to 2 options. All black or black with grey caps on some, or all, of the switches– similar to the AlumaPlop.
148756-2

I invite and welcome your opinions.

Offline nhopubrid

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #394 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 08:14:00 »
I invite and welcome your opinions.

I can imagine the shiny red trackball really popping out visually if the rest is all black. But then again, the unique keys and physical layout that you have created are a large part of what makes the Planet 6, so my final answer would be "accent the keys". What color is the base going to be?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #395 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 09:58:12 »
I invite and welcome your opinions.

I can imagine the shiny red trackball really popping out visually if the rest is all black. But then again, the unique keys and physical layout that you have created are a large part of what makes the Planet 6, so my final answer would be "accent the keys". What color is the base going to be?

You make some good points. Thanks for your input.  If by the base you mean the underside, it will be walnut matching the palm rests. I'm slightly concerned that the walnut may not stand out enough against the black. If not I'll use a different wood.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #396 on: Tue, 20 September 2016, 13:47:07 »
Some time ago I started the palm rests but never finished. Today it was on the to do list. It was important to do it before anodizing because it has to be sanded in place.

I hot glued the blanks in place and chiseled, belt sanded and hand sanded to blend into the curves off the shell.
148790-0

The gaps (I hesitated showing them) will be filled after final assembly during the wood finishing process.
148792-1

I thought it best to use a heat gun to remove the wood pads to avoid accidentally damaging them.
148794-2

I finished off the morning by sandblasting the shell.
148796-3

The texturing hides a lot of inconsistencies but also reveals what will show in the finished product. I found a few things to clean up and then I'll give it a final touch up of texture.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #397 on: Wed, 21 September 2016, 03:22:34 »
My vote is for all black. The red ball and wood should be plenty of contrast without adding in grey.

Was the sandblasting done with the mystery media or the 70 grit alu oxide? Looks good. I need to get a decent cabinet. It's very satisfying Karl Marxing all your little pieces and making them look uniform. No wonder why politicians love to do it.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #398 on: Wed, 21 September 2016, 08:30:14 »
My vote is for all black. The red ball and wood should be plenty of contrast without adding in grey.

Was the sandblasting done with the mystery media or the 70 grit alu oxide? Looks good. I need to get a decent cabinet. It's very satisfying Karl Marxing all your little pieces and making them look uniform. No wonder why politicians love to do it.

I'm guessing that the mystery media, that cut quickly and I ended up using, was silica sand. I better finish the keyboard quickly because i'll probably end up with silicosis by the end of the week. :))  I'm not making fun of lung disease, only the excessive, irrational fear promulgated by our guardians.  The pictures don't show it but the media cut very sharply and left a texture similar to Apple's aluminum; maybe just a little too gritty feeling. I am going to anodize/dye some samples to make sure I like it. If not, it is easy enough to soften it up a bit with mystery media #1. I never got around to trying the aluminum oxide.

I like both color schemes. The black/grey combo offers more contrast, probably makes P6's unique features stand our more and has the added benefit of matching the AlumaPlop, which will be mounted next to it most of the time. The red ball and chrome ring set in a background of black seems like it would have a strikingly bold look. The all black process is simpler whereas the grey may be inconsistent if the depth of anodize or time in the dye tank isn't uniform. Another advantage of the all black is in de-emphasizing any inconsistencies in gap width between the floating caps and their retainers (from now on referred to as egg crates). There's also merit in uniformity among the proletariat to better control them and remind them that they exist only to serve  me- I mean the State.

All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.  George Orwell


When I sandblasted the caps, the coefficient of friction increased considerably. I'm probably going to have to dress the bottom halves of the cap  and egg crate sides with a file to restore their slipperiness.  I got the teflon yesterday and have done some quick tests with it. As well as reducing friction I think it may also make the reveals consistent. I was able to stick it on the retaining lips of the caps improving the sound quality of the clack as well.

 I pulled out my anodizing equipment. Quick measurements confirmed my fear that my acid buckets are too small for P6. I ordered 6 gallon buckets and they should arrive today. I also have to get more distilled water and another gallon of sulfuric acid to supplement my current supply. I should be able to do some anodize/dye tests today and if all goes well have everything dyed by tomorrow.

Offline tufty

  • Posts: 347
  • Location: French Alps
Re: Planet 6 - The start of a new keyboard by kurplop
« Reply #399 on: Wed, 21 September 2016, 12:32:02 »
I don't know why I didn't think of that. Not only does that meet my initial criteria, it also has the added benefit of requiring expensive and potentially dangerous casting equipment. I wonder if we could substitute the inexpensive zinc based zamak with unobtainium?
Well, that merely reduces it to a supply chain issue.  Magnesium might be fun.  Not, you understand, an aluminium alloy containing trace amounts of magnesium, but full on, 100% magnesium.  It's got a fairly low melting point , so melting it down should be <ahem> fairly feasible using standard aluminium techniques.  As long as there's no water or oxygen anywhere near, of course.

Black is an extremely sensible colour option ("It's the new black", after all) in terms of repeatability / consistency if nothing else.

And those palm rests look gorgeous.