Author Topic: Dvorak/Colemak users?  (Read 26465 times)

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Offline deductivemonkee

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Dvorak/Colemak users?
« on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 21:42:03 »
Does anybody here use Dvorak or colemak? If so, why?
I'd like to hear opinions, as qwerty is getting tiresome.
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Offline katushkin

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 21:47:02 »
Does anybody here use Dvorak or colemak? If so, why?
I'd like to hear opinions, as qwerty is getting tiresome.

I too am going to switch. I am thinking of moving to DVORAK in a change to what I said in the bothering you thread, because I think it's the easiest to work with ISO. And I really don't fancy getting rid of my Caps Lock.

I am wondering if it is good to have QWERTY in one place and DVORAK in another? As I don't know if I can change my Keycool to DVORAK  :))

Edit: the only problem I can see with it is not having the keysets to support the layouts :(
« Last Edit: Sat, 31 October 2015, 22:09:05 by katushkin »
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Offline deductivemonkee

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 22:35:48 »
Does anybody here use Dvorak or colemak? If so, why?
I'd like to hear opinions, as qwerty is getting tiresome.

I too am going to switch. I am thinking of moving to DVORAK in a change to what I said in the bothering you thread, because I think it's the easiest to work with ISO. And I really don't fancy getting rid of my Caps Lock.

I am wondering if it is good to have QWERTY in one place and DVORAK in another? As I don't know if I can change my Keycool to DVORAK  :))

Edit: the only problem I can see with it is not having the keysets to support the layouts :(

Keysets would be a big problem for me, because I have alps... Although if you stuck with qwerty keycaps you wouldn't be able to cheat and you could easily change it back to qwerty for friends who need qwerty and can't touch type.
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Offline deductivemonkee

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 22:39:24 »
Huh. Didn't even notice that colemak didn't have caps lock. I might try Dvorak then.
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Offline vindaon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 23:09:40 »
All you have to do is remap Caps Lock back lol...

I use Colemak with Control mapped to the Caps Lock position.

Offline MajorMajor

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 00:18:29 »
Switched from Qwerty to DVORAK earlier this year. Love the move, glad I did it.

The reason why I chose DVORAK over Colemak is DVORAK is available on every modern OS without having to download files or remap keys, this isn't the case for Colemak. I don't want to rely on brining my own keyboard or downloading files on someone else's PC if I need to use it for a weekend. The only advantage to Colemak I saw is it might be faster to learn since it shares more keys with qwerty, and the shortcuts are placed better (copy, paste, cut).

My advice - if you make the switch, go 100% Dvorak. Don't try to spend time in both worlds. I did 100% Dvorak once I switched and it took me about 2 months to get back up to any sort of respectable typing speed, and 6+ to get back where I was with qwerty. It's a very long road of breaking down muscle memory and rebuilding it, but very worthwhile.

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Offline deductivemonkee

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 00:24:00 »
Since I would use Dvorak on my alps64 60% from bluenalgene, I could just map copy, cut, paste, and stuff back to where they would be on qwerty. Thanks for your input.
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Offline deductivemonkee

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 01:06:34 »
I've started with Dvorak. Typing this at 1wpm. At least the spacebar didn't move, I would have gone insane already!
That was painfully slow to type, and yes I'm typing this much intentionally, trying to re-teach brain how to type. The period and comma moving is really screwing me up so far.
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 November 2015, 11:12:33 by Deductivemonkee »
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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 02:48:27 »

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 03:00:12 »
learning Colemak right now

Offline squishygnomes

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 03:09:03 »
I'm a Colemak guy. Reasons for switching away from QWERTY are fairly normal and I prefer rolls over alternation so Dvorak isn't for me.  My experiences are fairly standard, switching and using others computers is a pain but its worth it IMO. Keycaps are a pain but I can ignore the legends and I'm an Alps guy so I don't have much of a choice anyway.

To address some of the concerns voiced, Colemak has a version without the capslock remapping and Dvorak has a version that swaps to QWERTY when ctrl is held down so you can use all the same shortcuts, its called DVERTY IIRC.

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 04:42:46 »
I'm a Colemak guy. I prefer rolls over alternation so Dvorak isn't for me.
How do you know?

Dvorak has a version that swaps to QWERTY when ctrl is held down so you can use all the same shortcuts, its called DVERTY IIRC.
It's called Dvorak-QWERTY in OS X, where it's present out of the box. Otherwise, it has to be added, and one of the best implementations is called DQ, although Dverty exists too.

However, it isn't widely/consistently supported, mostly because it's not a standard, while plain Dvorak Simplified Keyboard is.

Offline vindaon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 13:15:14 »
I'm a Colemak guy. I prefer rolls over alternation so Dvorak isn't for me.
How do you know?

He could have tried Dvorak before deciding he didn't like it. That's what I did.

Rolls are fun. Like, the act of typing itself is pretty enjoyable in Colemak, at least to me it is.

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 14:35:41 »
I'm a Colemak guy. I prefer rolls over alternation so Dvorak isn't for me.
How do you know?
He could have tried Dvorak before deciding he didn't like it. That's what I did.
Sure, I seriously tried DSK too—after using Colemak for 3.5 years—and concluded it required rewiring connections in the brain, or building a completely new muscle memory from scratch, due to its completely different range of motion, indeed. It takes much longer than a few weeks or so to do the actual rewiring though. It's like with basically any skill: obviously you suck initially… almost everybody sucks while acquiring a new skill.

However, the major point is that the Simplified Keyboard was also designed with experienced typists in mind, and the so-called "levelling effect" in particular. It's based on an observation that expert typists speed up, while typing common sequences. That's something entirely left out in case of Colemak, and there's no way to "try" it.

Offline katushkin

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 01 November 2015, 15:17:50 »
Literally the only thing putting me off DVORAK is keysets. I don't want to have to use Row 3 SA or DSA profile the rest of my life.
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Offline S1llyC0ne

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 02 November 2015, 02:38:25 »
I am a BÉPO (French Dvorak) user, I made the switch a bit more than a year ago.
I just received my first TypeMatrix 2020, I started using it with a silicone skin. The feeling is horrible when you don't touch type.
I had already planned to switch to BÉPO to reduce strain on my wrists and fingers.  I started to train with a paper reproduction of the bépo layout on the TypeMatrix behind my keyboard so I didn't have to watch my fingers.
It did feel amazing as my fingers moves were reduced and typing was so silent . The strain was gone. It took me about 6 months to type at an acceptable speed but I am not turning back.
I am using it at work, at home and even on my phone !

Offline thatsmrdoctortoyou

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 02 November 2015, 23:16:39 »
Ive also been interested in switching to Dvorak. Does anyone use both Dvorak and QWERTY? I'm wondering how difficult it is to use both layouts in a given day?

Offline wooshCap

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 08:36:19 »
Dvorak user here. If your going to do it go 100%. also make VIM impossible to use. copy paste is harder to do. I put color type under hot keys so I can see them on with out putting my hand on F and J keys. Good luck.

Offline thatsmrdoctortoyou

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 10:15:47 »
Dvorak user here. If your going to do it go 100%. also make VIM impossible to use. copy paste is harder to do. I put color type under hot keys so I can see them on with out putting my hand on F and J keys. Good luck.

That's exactly what my concern was. That and the location of the period and comma   :eek:

Offline weehooherod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 12:17:06 »
I switched to Colemak about 3 years ago. It took ~3 months for me to get to get back to my Qwerty typing speed. Overall I'd say it's not worth it. I don't think I type any faster than I did on Qwerty and now using other people's computers is a hassle.

Offline wooshCap

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 14:52:12 »
Dvorak user here. If your going to do it go 100%. also make VIM impossible to use. copy paste is harder to do. I put color type under hot keys so I can see them on with out putting my hand on F and J keys. Good luck.

That's exactly what my concern was. That and the location of the period and comma   :eek:

I am a programmer. The Key layout is actually works out really well for me. I would not go back. no problem with . ,; keys. I think the key layout is better for programmers.

Offline linuxhermit

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 18:42:38 »
I'm a colemak user, and I'm super happy with my switch.  I have a damaged left hand (had some fingers reattached) and it's uncomfortable with lots of multiple hits on the same finger and stretching.  Colemak helps me avoid both fairly often
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Offline wooshCap

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 19:13:29 »
I too switched because of health problem. I started to develop arthritis on my finger joins.
Does anyone know how Dvorak compared to Colemak?

Offline steve.v

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Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 03 November 2015, 22:43:21 »
Colemak: Finger rolls, home keys, minimal movement, zxcv in same place.

Dvorak: Hand alternations, minimal movement, vowels in same hand.

Offline kebby

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 04 November 2015, 05:53:58 »
What about the option of generating something based on your personal typing patterns, any users of that? I'm not completely clear on the process but I've seen stories about that a few times and there's software for it IIRC.

I guess there are a few problems with the idea...Besides the obvious difficulty of sourcing keycap sets with row profiles, I imagine your typing habits might change over time and that something like colemak could be more of a "middle of the road" solution that would always be fairly close to the best possible option. You're also always left to create the keymaps for yourself, although I guess that might be automated by the tools available.

I'm still on qwerty but I've adopted the modifier layers from neo2 and started touch typing properly. At this point I feel like I could add colemak or something else because I'm still slower than previously anyway.

Offline rebus

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 07 November 2015, 07:29:01 »
Dvorak here. I started learning Colemak after suffering wrist pain, then after a couple of months switched again to Dvorak and immediately felt much more comfortable. I am very happy with it, and I use tons of shortcuts everyday with no trouble: actually, With Dvorak I learned to do shortcuts with both hands, which is the suggested way to do them (pressing more keys with the same hand was probably one of the main reasons I began to feel pain). Most analysis claim Colemak is better than Dvorak just looking at cold maths, but don't consider many other variables like finger long-time feelings, language used, keyboards and so on. Anyway changing layout is hard and I am very slow with qwerty now, but I feel much better.

Offline steve.v

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 04:02:04 »

Dvorak here. I started learning Colemak after suffering wrist pain, then after a couple of months switched again to Dvorak and immediately felt much more comfortable. I am very happy with it, and I use tons of shortcuts everyday with no trouble: actually, With Dvorak I learned to do shortcuts with both hands, which is the suggested way to do them (pressing more keys with the same hand was probably one of the main reasons I began to feel pain). Most analysis claim Colemak is better than Dvorak just looking at cold maths, but don't consider many other variables like finger long-time feelings, language used, keyboards and so on. Anyway changing layout is hard and I am very slow with qwerty now, but I feel much better.

reaching the L on Dvorak was uncomfortable to my pinky.

Offline trenzafeeds

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 08 November 2015, 10:39:24 »
Literally the only thing putting me off DVORAK is keysets. I don't want to have to use Row 3 SA or DSA profile the rest of my life.

Dvorak isn't really worth it if you can't touch-type, so I wouldn't worry about keysets. I use Dvorak, and my daily driver has a DE QWERTZ set on it. I found that the best way to learn is to prent out a little chart of the layout and put it under your computer screen, so you're looking at that instead of your hands. That way you start to get a feeling for where the letters are without having to totally memorize it yet. It's slow and hard, but I've been at it for about a month and a half, and I'm up to around 60 WPM.
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Offline Tony

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 09 November 2015, 06:24:08 »
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Offline kebby

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 09 November 2015, 08:18:44 »
Decided I'd go for COLEMAK even though there are some probably even better alternatives out there like MTGAP (the author recommends everyone rallying behind COLEMAK) and the GH user oneproduct's own layout that has been discussed in depth elsewhere here. Maybe even the carpalx layouts but those don't totally convince me of their superiority.

COLEMAK is just so well supported and seems good enough. i don't think it matters to me that much whether or not there is a preinstalled layout in my OS because I modify it anyway. Things like the TARMAK transition layout plan and maybe getting to show off with keycaps made me choose in the end. Mostly it's really just TARMAK though. Going cold turkey is just too hard and sets you back for such a long time that any way to avoid that is a really good thing to have. Maybe I'll go on to switch to oneproduct some day. :P
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 November 2015, 08:23:54 by kebby »

Offline nomaded

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 01:59:20 »
I've been typing Dvorak full time for over 10 years. I don't find cut/copy/paste to be any more difficult than on Qwerty; it's just different. Same with vi/vim (been using vi much longer than vim); I didn't find the change to be harder, just different. I fully touch type Dvorak. It was only within the past couple years where I've had keycaps that allowed me to easily show the Dvorak layout. I always found having Qwerty keycaps and Dvorak as the logical layout to be a security "feature".
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Offline MohammedSmith

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 11 November 2015, 22:11:30 »
As an aside, has anyone tried the Workman layout? The creator of the layout claims the layout reduces lateral movement and is designed around the natural tendencies of each finger. Do the creator's claims hold up?

Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:50:57 »
Switched from Qwerty to DVORAK earlier this year. Love the move, glad I did it.

The reason why I chose DVORAK over Colemak is DVORAK is available on every modern OS without having to download files or remap keys, this isn't the case for Colemak. I don't want to rely on brining my own keyboard or downloading files on someone else's PC if I need to use it for a weekend. The only advantage to Colemak I saw is it might be faster to learn since it shares more keys with qwerty, and the shortcuts are placed better (copy, paste, cut).

My advice - if you make the switch, go 100% Dvorak. Don't try to spend time in both worlds. I did 100% Dvorak once I switched and it took me about 2 months to get back up to any sort of respectable typing speed, and 6+ to get back where I was with qwerty. It's a very long road of breaking down muscle memory and rebuilding it, but very worthwhile.

I think if you're worried about having to use another computer, you might as well not switch at all. Colemak is on OSX and linux by default. How often do you use someone else's computer? Do you go through the trouble to change the layout to Dvorak and back each time? You may not even be allowed to alter the keyboard layout. Also, for Windows, you can run your keyboard layout off of a usb stick (assuming this is allowed) without having to alter the computer's layout.

My recommendation is to actually research the different modern layouts and pick one based on their design if you plan on switching. Some people lose their ability to type QWERTY, but after 2+ years of using colemak exclusively, I still find just using QWERTY less tedious than bothering to change the layout on someone else's computer.

If your goal is to improve your typing speed, don't even bother trying to use a different layout. Practice your touch typing with QWERTY.

As an aside, has anyone tried the Workman layout? The creator of the layout claims the layout reduces lateral movement and is designed around the natural tendencies of each finger. Do the creator's claims hold up?

The difference is going to be subjective. I think a lot of people agree that lateral movement isn't as comfortable, which is why things like colemak mod-dh exist.
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 November 2015, 13:00:12 by angelic_sedition »
QWERTY(104wpm) -> CarpalxQ(modded) -> Colemak(118wpm) -> Colemak-DH
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Offline Syne

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 12:57:17 »
I am a colemak user.

Initially, I was going to switch to dvorak when I first started looking at keyboard layouts. But the slight improvement that colemak made along with its fewer changes on qwerty pursuaded me otherwise. I don't regret it at all and would encourage anyone to use colemak or dvorak. I must say, I have lost the ability to touch type on qwerty but since I only use my own computer/laptop, it isnt really a problem for me. The amount of time I spend on my own computer verses the time I spend on other computers makes the switch well worth it.

Offline dummytim

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 13 November 2015, 17:02:08 »
I see a lot of people saying that they've been typing on a specific layout for x amount of years. Was wondering how long did it take you guys to learn? I programmed my Poker 2 to have the Dvorak layer underneath and it's been so annoying to learn for me. Does anyone have any tips on learning?

It could also be that I'm really used to the QWERTY layout since it's what I've learned to touch type on and game on.

Offline Syne

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 08:59:13 »
It took me about a month.

Offline dummytim

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 15 November 2015, 16:28:52 »
It took me about a month.

Was that a month before you could touch type, or a month before typing wasn't a PITA?

I started and I've just been hunting and pecking on my blank keyboard, it's no fun at all!

Offline MajorMajor

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 15:03:40 »
It took me about a month.

Was that a month before you could touch type, or a month before typing wasn't a PITA?

I started and I've just been hunting and pecking on my blank keyboard, it's no fun at all!

My advice - buy some DVORAK keycaps, well worth the investment. It made learning a lot easier for me, I tried blanks at first as well. Obviously the goal is touch typing, but it's very helpful to be able to look down for assistance to help your brain form a mental image of your new keyboard layout while you're starting out.

When I switched, I used DVORAK 100%, even with work, so probably 10+ hours a day.

After one week, I was up to ~20-25 WPM.

After 2 weeks, ~28 WPM.

After 4 weeks, ~30-35 WPM.

After 5 weeks, ~45-50 WPM.


Now, about 8 months later, I can hit 90-95 WPM. I think that's as fast or faster than what I could do with Qwerty before.

The whole time I never switched back to Qwerty, and I set my phone to Dvorak as well.
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Offline dummytim

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 21:35:37 »
It took me about a month.

Was that a month before you could touch type, or a month before typing wasn't a PITA?

I started and I've just been hunting and pecking on my blank keyboard, it's no fun at all!


My advice - buy some DVORAK keycaps, well worth the investment. It made learning a lot easier for me, I tried blanks at first as well. Obviously the goal is touch typing, but it's very helpful to be able to look down for assistance to help your brain form a mental image of your new keyboard layout while you're starting out.

When I switched, I used DVORAK 100%, even with work, so probably 10+ hours a day.

After one week, I was up to ~20-25 WPM.

After 2 weeks, ~28 WPM.

After 4 weeks, ~30-35 WPM.

After 5 weeks, ~45-50 WPM.


Now, about 8 months later, I can hit 90-95 WPM. I think that's as fast or faster than what I could do with Qwerty before.

The whole time I never switched back to Qwerty, and I set my phone to Dvorak as well.

Well I'm currently about 90WPM with QWERTY, so I wonder how much quicker I could actually get.

Where did you buy Dvorak keys from?

Offline Zustiur

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 16 November 2015, 22:49:57 »
Colmak user, 11 months. Took a couple of days to learn the layout. About a month to type slowly. 6 months to return to qwerty speed. I still use qwerty when I have to, can still type at about full speed. About 70 wpm on both.

Did not go 100% colmak, was using qwerty at work, colmak at home initially. Now colmak at both locations but laptops and other people's computers are all qwerty.

Offline mivanov

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 18 November 2015, 04:30:04 »
Anyone tried this?

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main

Or any other software that analyzes character frequency and hand movement based on it?

It says Colemak and Programmer's Dvorak are optimal for me, but Colemak seems too much like QWERTY, so I am wondering what are the benefits.
I mean - In PDvorak, you swap the whole number row which seems like a great idea(entering numbers if frequently should be done with a numpad imho),
and it's reasonable for programmers since most programming languages need a lot of punctuation instead of hardcoding number constants. So the most used number is probably 0, because of all those for loops plus most of the time in languages like C it's the default return value. So I think @/^ should be swapped with */0.

So yeah, I am currently wondering if I should switch to Colemak or Programmer's dvorak. Or maybe try some mix of my own. Then again - these days most modern OS's have both Colemak and PDvorak, so one should be able to use other's computers without problems, but if you go custom.. => you will need hardware remapping+bringing your KB everywhere.

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 18 November 2015, 15:39:12 »
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main
It was pretty much useless, last time I checked. I neat toy, but that's it.

Or any other software that analyzes character frequency and hand movement based on it?
Character frequency is next to irrelevant. Bigrams work only for DSK-like layouts, and trigrams are already generally reasonable even otherwise. Why? Because of, as you mention, hand movement. You can't measure hand alternation, same-finger ratio or finger rolling on unigrams.

I've rewritten and extended the "typing effort" model of the carpalx fame, in order to support layers, dead keys and what not, but it still rots on my hard drives.

Anyway, there are basically two paradigms:
  • layouts, that favor hand alternation between each keystroke, such as Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, AdnW or the Marsan's layout;
  • and layouts based on the hypothesis, that sequences of keystrokes with adjacent fingers are faster on electric keyboards—these include Colemak, MTGAP and Maltron layouts.
There isn't enough evidence to call one or the other clearly superior, thus you have to pick a layout based on gut feeling, hype or convenience. For example, DSK has the advantage of being an ANSI standard; meanwhile, Colemak is becoming very common too, and the similarity to QWERTY allows utilization of relearning methods like Tarmak.

Offline Pro XKB

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 19 November 2015, 00:58:29 »
Quote
Anyone tried this?

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main
It is easy to use...

Quote
Or any other software that analyzes character frequency and hand movement based on it?
The AdNW optimizer (http://509.ch/opte.htm) also supports analysis of given layouts.  However, by default, it only defines keys for letters, shift, and space (mostly).  If you want to analyze a full layout, you must define the additional keys manually in a configuration file, which is somewhat tedious.

In return, you can obtain statistics in graphical and text form for monograms and bigrams.  For trigrams, there is only statistics in text form, which is a pity, as there are so many trigrams that a visual aid to process the huge amount of data would be really useful(but I have no idea how that should look like).

There is also support for a shifted level and dead key sequences, if you care about that.

Offline mivanov

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 19 November 2015, 16:13:46 »
http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main
It was pretty much useless, last time I checked. I neat toy, but that's it.

Or any other software that analyzes character frequency and hand movement based on it?
Character frequency is next to irrelevant. Bigrams work only for DSK-like layouts, and trigrams are already generally reasonable even otherwise. Why? Because of, as you mention, hand movement. You can't measure hand alternation, same-finger ratio or finger rolling on unigrams.

I've rewritten and extended the "typing effort" model of the carpalx fame, in order to support layers, dead keys and what not, but it still rots on my hard drives.

Anyway, there are basically two paradigms:
  • layouts, that favor hand alternation between each keystroke, such as Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, AdnW or the Marsan's layout;
  • and layouts based on the hypothesis, that sequences of keystrokes with adjacent fingers are faster on electric keyboards—these include Colemak, MTGAP and Maltron layouts.
There isn't enough evidence to call one or the other clearly superior, thus you have to pick a layout based on gut feeling, hype or convenience. For example, DSK has the advantage of being an ANSI standard; meanwhile, Colemak is becoming very common too, and the similarity to QWERTY allows utilization of relearning methods like Tarmak.

Why unigrams? Isn't it smart enough to at least group characters? Otherwise you really can't measure the distance since most of the time many keys are adjacent.. And you can press like 3 keys almost simultaneously.

Another idea I have and will probably try sometime soon.  Get this https://www.leapmotion.com/ and program it to monitor the movement. Those are cheap on eb, but atm I don't have enough time to play with them. Physical tracking seems like the best idea anyway.


Offline Hazel

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 09 December 2015, 17:58:50 »
I learned both Dvorak and Colemak, and ended up sticking with the latter.

I'd been a software engineer for 15 years, but I never learned to properly touch-type.  My new year's resolution for 2013 was to learn to touch-type.  In Dvorak.

I spent a couple weeks learning Dvorak at home, got up to almost 30 wpm, but it just didn't feel right.  I went looking for something better, and discovered the rabbit hole of alternate layouts. I immediately dismissed Colemak, as it didn't seem to be "logical" like Dvorak.  I spent a little time with Workman.  I even designed my own layout and used it for a few days.  Finally, I came back to Colemak and gave it a try... and it clicked instantly.  Within 3 weeks I was using Colemak full-time, and within 4 weeks I was faster than I'd been on qwerty. I haven't looked back.

Dvorak and Colemak are both really good.  Rather than worry about one being "better" than the other, I would recommend any potential switcher to try them both and see what works for them.

Interestingly, I still have most of my previous qwerty skills:  If I'm touch-typing, I type Colemak.  If I'm looking at the keyboard, I drop back into my old hunt-and-peck qwerty mode.  Some of this is probably from continuing to use qwerty on touchscreens (where qwerty's scattered placement of common keys is somewhat useful).

Offline stian

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 11 December 2015, 11:17:50 »
I made the switch after getting a tip from a coworker about it. I switched cold turkey and it was quite difficult to begin with. I don't regret it at all. I can still type qwerty after a little warm up, but it feels weird and the placement seems awful compared to colemak.

I can still type qwerty alright if I "finger type", and go from memory. I know people that can swap between colemak and qwerty fairly easily and touch type in both layouts fairly well. I guess it's difficult to determine the best way of learning a new layout but using it a little bit every day is probably the best thus retaining muscle memory for both? :P

With colemak everything rolls quite nicely. I heavily considered dvorak as well, but being left handed I didn't want to wear out my right hand, plus I use the mouse with my right hand. I'm stll not sure colemak is a 100% fit for me, I really like the ideas behind programmers dvorak and would love to make a programmers colemak, for example moving the {} up to the left hand somewhere; I use a Kinesis Advantage so the braces are quite far down on the right hand for me.

Offline wooshCap

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 12 December 2015, 16:11:27 »
I just wanted to share a great tool for learning new keyboard layout.

Typing of the dead. I love it. you can find it on steam.

Offline btacju

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 14 December 2015, 20:04:09 »
I learned programmer's dvorak on a whim a long time ago, and it is now the only layout I use. I don't really see the benefits of it that many people advocate. I just use it now because it's the only layout I know comfortably, and I don't feel like relearning qwerty or anything like that. It can be inconveniencing to use others' computers sometimes or play some games that don't automatically switch the keys for you. I never really noticed a change in typing speed or a reduced strain when I first switched, though there's no real way to quantify that, either, I guess.

Offline wockytocky

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 16:21:11 »
Dvorak user here. If your going to do it go 100%. also make VIM impossible to use. copy paste is harder to do. I put color type under hot keys so I can see them on with out putting my hand on F and J keys. Good luck.

I have no problems using vim with dvorak. The new locations of the navigation keys are all still pretty intuitive and easy to access imo. In Colemak, on the other hand, the navigation keys are in absolutely terrible locations. J is in the top row and K is in the bottom row, first of all. Second of all, HJK are all on the same finger :(

I switched to dvorak in my freshman year of college and used it exclusively for about 5 years. I was a CS major and did all of my programming in dvorak without a problem, fantastic layout. I'm currently switching to colemak out of curiosity more than anything else. I've met plenty of people with years of experience in one or the other but I've never met anyone who's spent a significant amount of time in both. I intend to become that person

Offline Vozella

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 13 January 2016, 17:46:32 »
Why do people not want to learn Colemak solely because there's no CapsLock? You can either make Backspace your CapsLock or don't change the CapsLock position at all.
Edit: I just started learning Colemak a few weeks ago.
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 January 2016, 17:48:21 by Vozella »

Offline PieterGen

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:47:26 »
I use a Dvorak-like layout, which is AdNW.  How about this list that I made? Five questions for finding your optimal layout

1. Works anywhere?
If you want a layout that works everywhere, your best bet is Qwerty (or its variants azerty/qwertz)

2. Custom hardware?
If you use your own custom hardware, such as an Ergodox or a DIY board with different key-locations (split spacebar, matrix layout etc.) then a custom layout may be optimal

3. Rolls or alternation?
As Davkol correctly writes, there are basically two paradigms: rolls and alternations. Since there is no hard evidence what is better, let your hands decide what you like best. Try out Colemak (=rolls) and Dvorak (=alternations) on your keyboard(s) and decide what feels best for you.

4. Similarity to Qwerty ?
If this is important to you, chose Colemak, Minimak, qwpr or one of the minimal change Carpalx versions.

5. Ready-made or custom?
Within each paradigm, there are several "ready made" layouts. Ready made " rolls"  layouts include Colemak and (stock) MTGAP; ready alternating layouts include Dvorak and AdNW. Alternatively, you could calculate your own, using software that you can find on the Carpalx, MTGAP and AdNW-websites.  Reasons for designing a custom layout can be: you type in a language very different from English; you code and use special symbols all the time; you have special wishes like less use of pinkies, no use of left ring finger etc; you have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and think that the ready made layouts are not good enough ;-)

Is it worth it?
Yes. It is definitely a nicer typing experience. However, in the grand scheme of things I would say that learning to touch type and using a good keyboard.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:14:31 »
on my 4th day of using colemak on my ergodox. i decided to take the plunge because i wanted to do something more ergonomic, and to prove something i guess. i also own 9 custom keyboards i can natively remap.



i have the layout fully memorized and can touch type, the ergodox makes that very easy with its matrix layout, i could use blanks if i wanted to

i range between 14 and 20 wpm right now, wrote this post with it and have been writing my work emails with it so i am essentially trowing myself in the deep end

i decided on colemak over dvorak or workman because it looks to be the easiest transition from qwerty and i like the focus on the home row, it feels immediately more ergonomic

i didn't map the left hand backspace, i feel control belongs there :)

i will say though i hate the r/s swap and i think this is permanently damaging my ability to type 90wpm in qwerty so it better be worth it

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:29:47 »
Edit: the only problem I can see with it is not having the keysets to support the layouts :(

you know i thought about this today, "Damn the world for no dvorak/colemak DCS/CHERRY/GMK!!!" and there is only 3 SCULPTED SA sets i know of for these layouts, but as i am learning i am learning to touch type amazingly fast, in the end it really wont matter what is on the legends, you can do training wheels with stickers and/or DSA (what i am doing) but down the road there is little benefit to hunt and pecking these layouts. these legends should be purely cosmetic if you are a good typest. that's not to say i wouldn't jump on lets say a colemak GMK kit, we can only dream, damn these MOQs!!

Offline Kliwon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:08:45 »
because I have been using qwerty, I try to use a different layout.
between dovark and Colemak , I'm more interested in the Colemak because it was closer to a sentence in a language that I use compared qwerty  ;D

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:14:18 »
Its been 2 months since I used dvorak and my typing speed increase by 10 wpm really recommended to use dvorak and it doesn't cause finger strain like qwerty keyboard does

Offline thatllbeme

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 05:25:45 »
With my custom boards finished I've been alternating between Dvorak and Qwerty: while my Dvorak WPM is not nearly up to the same speed as Qwerty, I've found it a lot more comfortable to use. I've also noticed small bursts of really fast typing which I don't get on a Qwerty layout. I've decided to use Dvorak on my custom, linear layout board and keep to Qwerty on my staggered boards so I retain muscle memory for both. It's working well so far.

Offline Fiery

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 06:17:15 »
Dvorak converter reporting in. I'm still in the process of converting, but I feel more comfortable on Dvorak now compared to QWERTY. I switched because I felt QWERTY was stupid and archaic. I feel that dvorak is alot more comfortable to type on, also I reccomend making Caps lock into backspace as its alot easier to use. you dont have to move pour hands as much. im up to 30 wpm now after 2 months, but only one month full conversion.
TP4 fanboy

Offline PieterGen

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 07:28:06 »
For those on the fence: both rolling and alternating layouts have their strong points.

Rolling feels fast & easy. I also found it easier to remember (tried Colemak and Mtgap). The disadvantages to me was that there are many not-so-nice rolls as well - think of traps in Colemak. Plus, it felt like I was typing some chunks of letters left, then some chunks right, etc. This gets worse if the " chunks"  on one hand are on average longer that those on the other hand. This does not show in statistics, a perfectly balanced 50/50 layout may be (left hand typed letters L,   right hand typed letters R)

LLLL RRR L R LLLL RRR LLL RR LLL RR LLL RR LLL RR LL R LLL RRRRRRRRRR.     This is a line of 18 words, 50% left hand typed, 50% righthand. But it feels very un-even, because most righthanded words are shorter that the lefthanded words.

The difference between rolling an alternating is, by the way, not a sharp one. All layouts have some rolls and some alternation - so when do you start calling it "rolling"  or " alternating" ? 

Alternating layouts are (to me) harder to learn. Also, they can feel slower, because there is not the fast and familiar "roll". But, they feel more even, more steady, not the clusters of letters, but a nice steady "flow"  of letters.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 January 2016, 07:30:08 by PieterGen »

Offline nickw

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 17:44:06 »
I've been using colemak for a couple months now.  I'm still not up to my qwerty speed, but am already fast enough that it isn't a burden, and I am liking it so far.  It's actually  pretty hard  to give an objective opinion on it.  I do notice when I need to type on qwerty that I have to move my hands a lot more to be efficient, where in colemak I can leave them on the home row for the most part.

I have tried to learn dvorak a couple of times in the past, but always failed, because I couldn't really tolerate the speed drop of going back to hunt and peck while I learned the new layout.  (When you're trying to do your job on a computer, 5-10wpm is insufficient.)

Anyone who wants to learn colemak, forget trying to go 100%, and check out tarmak.  It's a set of 4 transitional  layouts for switching from qwerty to colemak.  Each one moves 3-4 keys, so you can learn it a bit at a time.  Because only about half of the keys change, it can be done without much overhead in relearning.   The only key that gets moved around repeatedly is the j.

Because it's only 3-4 keys out of place, it's not too much of a penalty to your typing speed.  You need to think about where those keys are, which will slow you down, but you should still be able to maintain a usable speed.  once you get back up to say 40wpm, you move  onto tarmak2, where another few keys get scrambled, and so on.

It was around 10 days before I was switched fully to colemak (the first couple steps went very quickly) but I maintained a usable typing speed throughout.  If I hadn't used tarmak, I might have gotten to the same point a couple days sooner, but I wouldn't have been able to work normally in the mean time.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 25 January 2016, 19:50:32 »
its been about two weeks since i switched to colemak and right now i am up to 35 wpm average, the highest i got was 40wpm, im using my atreus which has no legends, dsa blanks, so i really threw myself in to deep end. i think i would have faster wpm if i was using sculpted key caps and not dsa.

Offline droshi

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 09:47:18 »
I've switched a long time ago to Dvorak before Colemak came out. It was great and I liked it for many years, but the biggest problem for me had always been the copy paste functions. Just before trying out Colemak, I found AHK and it was nice, but certain AHK shortcuts nagged me because they were all remapped, and I was kind of used to the weird Dvorak equivalent. Ctrl + T...and so on.

A couple months ago I switched to Colemak. I like it. I used to type around ~70 wpm on Dvorak, now I'm up to 55-60 wpm on Colemak. My biggest mistakes are usually +-{} which I use in programming frequently and were switched in Dvorak.

I thought about programmers Dvorak, but ultimately I really like Colemak for the shortcuts. Pretty much same benefits I found in Dvorak for typing (except typing L no longer kills my pinky), and better productivity on a computer. With buying a Pok3r, it's even nicer as everything is contained in the board for switching Colemak and generally remapping keys. I just wish I could find Colemak keycaps for my pok3r that keeps the secondary Fn layer.
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 January 2016, 18:53:46 by droshi »

Offline hoosieree

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 27 January 2016, 15:39:47 »
Just tried both Dvorak and Colemak for the first time recently.  As a qwerty touch-typist, Colemak's learning curve is shorter, but Dvorak's consistency might win me over.

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 00:33:10 »
Loving Colemak, at 55-60wpm on both matrix and staggered layouts all touchtype, Got it programmed into my atreus, Satan gh60, phantom, ergodox and autohotkey for everything else.

I feel like I've reached the point of difficult return as I can no longer touch type in QWERTY, and at one point I was typing 100 wpm in QWERTY.

The problem with my QWERTY typing was I wasn't doing it proper, I only used 2 fingers on my right hand and would cramp up my left hand, by learning Colemak strictly touch-type correctly from the beginning, everything feels distributed and healthy, and I feel less like needing to use ergo boards even though I love my atreus.

Side note,
Also changed my Android Google Keyboard to Colemak under languages to download and I swipe with it pretty fast, it helps keeping consistent across platforms.

Offline Fiery

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 24 February 2016, 00:49:34 »
So I thought I would do as Glod and come back here and make a quick update.

 I feel I can no longer type on QWERTY, but I don't see why I would want to.

 I have never been a fast typist but I am now reaching speeds about the same as I did on QWERTY, and I feel I can still get quite a bit faster.

I am really glad I decided to make the plunge and get away from the old outdated QWERTY layout.
TP4 fanboy

Offline Glod

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 20 October 2017, 18:03:08 »
Necro Post

The day finally came for me

GMK with Colemak



I mean it really was not necessary, I really dont look at my keyboard, I touch type, But it is still cool as F**K!

I currently peaked at 75wpm with Colemak, I have yet to get any faster than that. I do much less typing than i did in the past though which could be the reason. And when I travel and work with other people's PCs I have to use QWERTY which confuses my mind.

I still consider it a success, fingers feel so much better.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 October 2017, 12:39:11 by Glod »

Offline ctrl

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 01 November 2017, 07:47:23 »
I've been thinking about switching. I've been considering Dvorak, but would like some feedback on my thoughts about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the math behind Colemak is based on English. So the pros of using Colemak would be the pros of typing in English.

My native language is Swedish. I type in both Swedish and English. Both quite often. To me it sounds like alternating hands is a better suited option as it is language-neutral.

Colemak doesn't have, to my knowledge, any official Swedish layout, meaning all Swedish layouts I see online are various individual solutions. My impression is that Colemak prides itself on optimizing how often certain keys are struck by what fingers. That math quickly becomes irrelevant when you introduce letters from other languages than English as well as untested keymapping.

While there are 2-3 Dvorak layouts to choose between in Swedish, there's actually an official Dvorak layout in Norwegian and Norwegian uses the same extra vowels that Swedish do. In fact one of the Swedish layouts is pretty much the Norwegian one straight off.

All the above is probably old news, but there's something else I'm considering too. I've been considering dropping ISO in favor of ANSI for practical custom-keyboard reasons. I'm thinking the extra vowels in Swedish could be remapped to the same positions on an English Dvorak layout using Alt Gr (or Alt Gr mapped to split spacebar) - I think this could work with Dvorak as I'd Alt Gr with my right thumb and then alternate to a vowel with my left hand.

What are your thoughts? Am I thinking about this the wrong way? Have I misunderstood the intentions of Colemak? Are there any Colemak users typing in a language other than English? Anyone try experimenting with languages and layers and if so, how did it turn out?

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 01 November 2017, 10:24:03 »
Heatmaps for a language significantly different from English:

As you can see, it's still quite reasonable.

I don't have a good visualization of keystroke sequences (yet), but the numbers translate pretty well between languages.

Offline Nixon

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:23:26 »
Started using Dvorak to stop colleagues from using my workstation PC at work. Got use enough to it that all my computers and laptops are now set up for Dvorak.

Offline rebus

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 03 November 2017, 15:46:06 »
Language certainly matters. I started with Colemak years ago but soon discovered that Dvorak was better suited for Italian. Or at least, I do feel more comfortable with Dvorak. Don't know about Swedish, anyway both are far better choices than Qwerty.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Offline ADNW

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 24 November 2017, 08:11:09 »
Language certainly matters. I use the adnw analyser sometimes (source code is on adnw.de) . My languages are Dutch and English, sometimes a bit in other languages.

Qwerty is even worse for Dutch than it is for English. Colemak is a huge improvement over Qwerty - in English! But in Dutch it is no so impressive. Of the "Big 3" (Qwerty, Dvorak, Colemak), Dvorak is the best choice for Dutch and German. Colemak seems to be so for English.

You could also "roll your own" layout, optimized for your use. Options are:
- trial & error on patorjk.com
- use an offline analyzer. I've used the mtgap, carpalx and adnw analyzers. Of which I prefer the adnw one. Although the mtgap analyser is fine too.


Offline dustpuppy

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 01 February 2018, 07:50:37 »
Does anybody here use Dvorak or colemak? If so, why?
I'd like to hear opinions, as qwerty is getting tiresome.

I too am going to switch. I am thinking of moving to DVORAK in a change to what I said in the bothering you thread, because I think it's the easiest to work with ISO. And I really don't fancy getting rid of my Caps Lock.

I am wondering if it is good to have QWERTY in one place and DVORAK in another? As I don't know if I can change my Keycool to DVORAK  :))

Edit: the only problem I can see with it is not having the keysets to support the layouts :(

Keysets would be a big problem for me, because I have alps... Although if you stuck with qwerty keycaps you wouldn't be able to cheat and you could easily change it back to qwerty for friends who need qwerty and can't touch type.

If you’re going to switch to dvorak, and you’re serious about it, do yourself a favor and completely ignore the keycaps / labels. You are now entering a world where you don’t even look at your keyboard once. You should position your hand and type by feel, there is no need at all to have any labels on keycaps. In fact, blank keysets make the most sense when switching to dvorak. QWERTY keysets are acceptable also, but i’ve never seen anyone in the mechanical keyboard world who actually switched their keysets to dvorak. Doing so would be counter productive in my opinion.

Offline Zustiur

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 22 February 2018, 16:51:36 »
I'm now up to 4 years of colemak and still loving it.
Never tried Dvorak. I don't think I'd like it because I find I have trouble coordinating alternating hand movements.
I can still type in qwerty when I have to, such as on my laptop. I find using two different shapes of keyboard helps a lot with switching from one to the other.
Ergo boards on colemak, qwerty on standard boards.

Offline KPrepublic

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 04:07:52 »
Tried colemak a few hours. not familiar with it.  :) I mean I was not used to it. Maybe I am used to typing w/ qwery.  I think I would get used to it someday, but it would take me a long time.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 March 2018, 04:15:45 by KPrepublic »

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #73 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 04:36:15 »
Tried colemak a few hours. not familiar with it.  :) I mean I was not used to it. Maybe I am used to typing w/ qwery.  I think I would get used to it someday, but it would take me a long time.
So, what's the point of your post, other than spamming links to your store? Hail Corporate!

Offline KPrepublic

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #74 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 04:37:38 »
Tried colemak a few hours. not familiar with it.  :) I mean I was not used to it. Maybe I am used to typing w/ qwery.  I think I would get used to it someday, but it would take me a long time.
So, what's the point of your post, other than spamming links to your store? Hail Corporate!

Nope. My point is I am not used to typing with colemak. That’s all.


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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 04:57:45 »
Tried colemak a few hours. not familiar with it.  :) I mean I was not used to it. Maybe I am used to typing w/ qwery.  I think I would get used to it someday, but it would take me a long time.
So, what's the point of your post, other than spamming links to your store? Hail Corporate!

Nope. My point is I am not used to typing with colemak. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool, now you've added that mobile-client spam.

What does you post contribute to the discussion again? Uh, you don't use Colemak. Yeah, neither does vast majority of computer users. Should they all fill the thread with posts about how they don't use Colemak without any original reasoning?

…and there's some interesting debate about different consideration higher in the thread.

Offline KPrepublic

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 05:03:42 »
Tried colemak a few hours. not familiar with it.  :) I mean I was not used to it. Maybe I am used to typing w/ qwery.  I think I would get used to it someday, but it would take me a long time.
So, what's the point of your post, other than spamming links to your store? Hail Corporate!

Nope. My point is I am not used to typing with colemak. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cool, now you've added that mobile-client spam.

What does you post contribute to the discussion again? Uh, you don't use Colemak. Yeah, neither does vast majority of computer users. Should they all fill the thread with posts about how they don't use Colemak without any original reasoning?

…and there's some interesting debate about different consideration higher in the thread.
Ok. I tried the colemak, and tried used the layout typing Chinese. However, I found it is difficult. Then, I switched back to qwerty.

Alright, It’s my bad. I don’t mean to spam. Just intend to join the chat.  If you said the thread is for the higher user, so I cannot argue, just accept what you think. Thank you.


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Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #77 on: Sat, 03 March 2018, 06:09:26 »
Could you avoid spamming the forum with at least the Apple and Tapatalk advertisements? Thank you.

On-topic, if you could _elaborate_ on Chinese and Colemak compatibility, that would be actually informative and add to the discussion. Quick googling "colemak chinese" returns a bunch of threads and blog posts, but few go into detail.

Offline nickw

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 05 March 2018, 19:35:55 »
I posted on this thread about a year ago about my switch to colemak.  I've since gone back to qwerty.
While I did find colemak a little nicer to type on, The inconvenience when using other people's keyboards outweighed it a bit.

The good thing is that  changing back was pretty trivial for me.  I made some typos for  a couple days before I was back to my full speed on qwerty, but nothing too serious.

I still recommend colemak via tarmak if you want to try an alternate layout, as I had a much better time with it than I did when I tried switching to dvorak several times in the past, but even so, don't be surprised if the benefits don't turn out to be worth it.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #79 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 21:40:47 »
How many obi's does it take to kenobi?

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 21:41:00 »
Only wan.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #81 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 21:41:16 »
......

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #82 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 21:41:26 »
i am posting in the wrong thread

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 06 March 2018, 21:41:42 »
sorry  :-X

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #84 on: Wed, 07 March 2018, 02:16:18 »
i am posting in the wrong thread

you know normally ****posting to pad post count is my job
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Offline Cynamin

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #85 on: Sun, 11 March 2018, 00:45:46 »
I used dvorak for a few weeks and it's a really nice layout and felt really comfortable to use, but I literally can't play games with it unless I spend half an hour rebinding everything, and then with some games I either can't or there are certain keys that conflict (fallout with the tilde console, also my button to switch layouts) which made me drop it. A shame because I really liked it otherwise and I'd go back if I had a better solution.

Offline superbia

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #86 on: Wed, 14 March 2018, 08:32:12 »
I used dvorak for a few weeks and it's a really nice layout and felt really comfortable to use, but I literally can't play games with it unless I spend half an hour rebinding everything, and then with some games I either can't or there are certain keys that conflict (fallout with the tilde console, also my button to switch layouts) which made me drop it. A shame because I really liked it otherwise and I'd go back if I had a better solution.

The easiest solution would be to quit games, get a programmable keyboard, install something that allows you to switch layouts with 2 clicks (most desktop environments support it out of the box). And to conclude, there are modern iterations of both colemak and dvorak which are not the same as the original layouts, but that are 'maintained', and thy change slowly as language and way we type changes over time.
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Offline etatauri

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #87 on: Fri, 06 April 2018, 20:10:52 »
Been using Colemak for over a year now and now I'm comfortably touch typing at around 70 wpm.

I'm really enjoying the layout as I am noticing way less finger travel compared to Qwerty. I don't type any faster but it is way more comfortable having the most used keys on the home row. I haven't tried Dvorak, but there are just so many changes that the transition seemed too daunting. Plus, the shortcuts zxcv are in the same place which makes it very convenient.

Keycaps: I'm secretly glad there aren't that many keycaps that come with Colemak layouts because otherwise, I'd be broke buying all of them haha. There are however very nice sets that do come with Colemak/Dvorak compatibility.

Games: Gaming isn't that much of an issue. Once you download the layout, and have it configured to Win+Space shortcut to switch layouts, it's very easy to switch between layouts. Some games will even switch bindings for you like with Overwatch.

Anyways, I am definitely sold on Colemak, and haven't looked back. Yes, it can be annoying sometimes when I have to use someone else's computer, but I still use Qwerty on my phone so it's not like I forget where the keys are. I just use two-finger typing so my muscle memory doesn't kick in.

Overall, very happy with my switch!
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Offline domsch1988

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #88 on: Thu, 19 April 2018, 02:09:39 »
I just thought i'd way in as a qwertz User.

I tried both dvorak and colemak for an extended period. Several Reasons i stick with qwertz:
- It's default on every machine everywhere. You litterally have to do nothing to use it.
- You never have to switch layouts because of coworkers, other machins, laptops (even my phones keyboard gave me trouble when i switched)
- I'm a sys admin. Keyboard Layout mapping through RDP is abysmal. So you'd have colemak on your PC and qwerty on every Server you connect to. This gets soooo confusing fast and isn't changeable.
- Same as above for Teamviewer. Alternate Layouts are really inconsistent.
- I'm not an author or Programmer. Yes my job requires me to type quite a bit, but i'm not earning my money typing away 8 hours a day.
- The ergo benefits of those layouts are 1. at least questionalble and 2. miniscule compared to a proper desk, seat, position and keyboard split/tent.

All of this let me to the decision that any alternate keyboard Layout is just more work and hassle than they are worth it for me. I feel like a lot of dvorak hype comes from just wanting something different (which is fine) or because it's the "hip" or "right" thing to do. Everyone needs to do their own evaluation to see if they need to change.

Though i do vouch for actually giving it a try. Properly for some time. dissmissing it out of principal isn't good. Just look if it works for you and your situation.

Offline superbia

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #89 on: Fri, 20 April 2018, 02:51:44 »
I just thought i'd way in as a qwertz User.

I tried both dvorak and colemak for an extended period. Several Reasons i stick with qwertz:
- It's default on every machine everywhere. You litterally have to do nothing to use it.
- You never have to switch layouts because of coworkers, other machins, laptops (even my phones keyboard gave me trouble when i switched)
- I'm a sys admin. Keyboard Layout mapping through RDP is abysmal. So you'd have colemak on your PC and qwerty on every Server you connect to. This gets soooo confusing fast and isn't changeable.
- Same as above for Teamviewer. Alternate Layouts are really inconsistent.
- I'm not an author or Programmer. Yes my job requires me to type quite a bit, but i'm not earning my money typing away 8 hours a day.
- The ergo benefits of those layouts are 1. at least questionalble and 2. miniscule compared to a proper desk, seat, position and keyboard split/tent.

All of this let me to the decision that any alternate keyboard Layout is just more work and hassle than they are worth it for me. I feel like a lot of dvorak hype comes from just wanting something different (which is fine) or because it's the "hip" or "right" thing to do. Everyone needs to do their own evaluation to see if they need to change.

Though i do vouch for actually giving it a try. Properly for some time. dissmissing it out of principal isn't good. Just look if it works for you and your situation.

Thank you for your opinion.

1) If you needed a good layout, you would find a way to use it
2) People developed and still develop layouts, they are here and people use them (weirdos, programmers, ergo-fangirls, etc.)
3) The extreme ergonomics are not accomplished by a proper desk, proper seat and seating position (because the thought of having to 'sit' to use a computer is superfluous); rather the ideal position should be lying  :cool:
using https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/ + keeb.io Iris (white dampened Alps)

Offline domsch1988

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #90 on: Fri, 20 April 2018, 03:20:16 »
Thank you for your opinion.

1) If you needed a good layout, you would find a way to use it
2) People developed and still develop layouts, they are here and people use them (weirdos, programmers, ergo-fangirls, etc.)
3) The extreme ergonomics are not accomplished by a proper desk, proper seat and seating position (because the thought of having to 'sit' to use a computer is superfluous); rather the ideal position should be lying  :cool:

Concerning 3:

While lying would indeed reduce stress on the body, wouldn't this also deteriorate your muscles over time? I mean a big part of a healthy body is training your muscles (all of them). I always thought that the biggest problem is a lack of movement which a standing solution fixes, not the sitting position per se. Though, given only the sitting or lying choice, lying should be better (i have no scientific data on that matter).

Apart from that at my office, a standing solution isn't provided and to expensive to buy myself, and a lying solution is completely out of the question. We all have to make the best out of the given circumstances.

Offline superbia

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 20 April 2018, 08:22:15 »
Thank you for your opinion.

1) If you needed a good layout, you would find a way to use it
2) People developed and still develop layouts, they are here and people use them (weirdos, programmers, ergo-fangirls, etc.)
3) The extreme ergonomics are not accomplished by a proper desk, proper seat and seating position (because the thought of having to 'sit' to use a computer is superfluous); rather the ideal position should be lying  :cool:

Concerning 3:

While lying would indeed reduce stress on the body, wouldn't this also deteriorate your muscles over time? I mean a big part of a healthy body is training your muscles (all of them). I always thought that the biggest problem is a lack of movement which a standing solution fixes, not the sitting position per se. Though, given only the sitting or lying choice, lying should be better (i have no scientific data on that matter).

Apart from that at my office, a standing solution isn't provided and to expensive to buy myself, and a lying solution is completely out of the question. We all have to make the best out of the given circumstances.

If you don't trust ordinary medicine and their scientific research, you can always look into Computer Science.
There is a branch of Computer Science called Computer Ergonomics (google this to get relevant data).
This picture shows the load on your spine:

Main problems are the spine (even kids have bad postures), eyes (screens are still terrible), carpal tunnel (don't google this), and general diet (not easy with everything being GMO).
For overall muscles you could do something like parkour (the art of moving efficiently).  :thumb:

This is not really on topic, but I hope mods won't punish me  ^-^
using https://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/ + keeb.io Iris (white dampened Alps)

Offline davkol

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Re: Dvorak/Colemak users?
« Reply #92 on: Fri, 20 April 2018, 09:35:32 »
There is a branch of Computer Science called Computer Ergonomics (google this to get relevant data).
???

general diet (not easy with everything being GMO)
???