Author Topic: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"  (Read 24676 times)

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Offline baldgye

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:32:35 »
This is a serious question and I'm genuinely curious but why do some of you commenting from outside of the US give even half a **** about our laws on guns?

I don't really, you are (clearly) free to go about murdering each other and I have little to no desire to ever visit the US. I just find the mentally of needing to own a tool that's only job is to kill things hilarious and quite sad, especially when you feel the need to have to carry it around with you...

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #101 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:35:15 »
if nether party is armed at worth you have a nut with a knife or a punchout,

Right, because the only way people are murdered or seriously harmed is with guns. That's why there is almost no violence at all in the UK, no risk of being harmed ever, and therefore weapons are not necessary.


because lets face it if someone brakes into your home you are not going for the gun before getting shot first.

There are about 100,000 cases a year where people protect themselves with firearms in the US according to FBI stats. Those are only the ones that are reported.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

They really pound the anti-gun message in hard over there in the UK (damn all logic), but that type of over-controlling rule is why the US exists in the first place.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:49:52 »
Secondly why could you not just walk away without having the gun on you at all, if I read correctly it implies the gun pacify your anger as you know you could kill someone with it, surely a sane person could just smile nod and walk away from something such as what you described.
Keep in mind, as a people, white Texan men believe the earth was formed 6000 years ago and don’t believe in evolution; think the best fix for teenage pregnancy is abstinence-only education, preventing people from getting contraceptives, and banning abortions in all cases; are proud to have improved their school test scores via a ballooning dropout rate; think that global climate change is an east coast conspiracy; have deeper relationships with their pickup trucks than with other humans; treat high school football as a religion; have one of the most regressive tax systems in the country with an effective tax rate of >12% of income for the poorest 20% of the population and only 3% of income for the top 1%, making up for lack of state income taxes with oil profits (oops: the state is now being bankrupted by low oil prices); are doing everything they can to prevent hispanics from voting, including new high-profile lawsuits arguing that we shouldn’t count children when drawing up legislative district boundaries; etc.

The white mayor of Dallas recently claimed to be “fearful of large gatherings of white men that come into schools, theaters and shoot people up”.

In such a context, I think there’s just such a pervasive anger and fear and ****-swinging in the culture that basic emotional control is difficult.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:30:17 by jacobolus »

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:56:25 »
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #104 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:57:12 »

Offline Fire Brand

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #105 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 16:59:07 »
if nether party is armed at worth you have a nut with a knife or a punchout,

Right, because the only way people are murdered or seriously harmed is with guns. That's why there is almost no violence at all in the UK, no risk of being harmed ever, and therefore weapons are not necessary.


because lets face it if someone brakes into your home you are not going for the gun before getting shot first.

There are about 100,000 cases a year where people protect themselves with firearms in the US according to FBI stats. Those are only the ones that are reported.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

They really pound the anti-gun message in hard over there in the UK (damn all logic), but that type of over-controlling rule is why the US exists in the first place.
They don't really say anything about guns at school or during any type of learning we do in the UK to my knowledge, But all im saying is if nether party has a gun then worst is a punchout as most likely thing would not escalate to someone beating the life out of someone, not saying it won't happen just saying its highly unlikely but enjoy your guns by all means and bi annual mass shootings I want nothing of them

they really pound the gun ownership part of your amendment in  the US education don't they  ;)

Secondly why could you not just walk away without having the gun on you at all, if I read correctly it implies the gun pacify your anger as you know you could kill someone with it, surely a sane person could just smile nod and walk away from something such as what you described.
Keep in mind, as a people, white Texan men believe the earth was formed 6000 years ago; think the best fix for teenage pregnancy is abstinence-only education, preventing people from getting contraceptives, and banning abortions in all cases; are proud to have improved their school test scores via a ballooning dropout rate; think that global climate change is an east coast conspiracy; have deeper relationships with their pickup trucks than with other humans; treat high school football as a religion; have one of the most regressive tax systems in the country with an effective tax rate of >12% of income for the poorest 20% of the population and only 3% of income for the top 1%, making up for lack of state income taxes with oil profits (oops: the state is now being bankrupted by low oil prices); are doing everything they can to prevent hispanics from voting, including new high-profile lawsuits arguing that we shouldn’t count children when drawing up legislative district boundaries; etc.

The white mayor of Dallas recently claimed to be “fearful of large gatherings of white men that come into schools, theaters and shoot people up”.

In such a context, I think there’s just such a pervasive anger and fear and ****-swinging in the culture that basic emotional control is difficult.

Shots fired

Pun intended
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:04:54 by Fire Brand »
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:09:32 »
The problem with this is that while a lot of level-headed people are going to feel that way, not everyone would.  I have hung out with my (redneck) family on a couple occasions where the booze is flowing, someone starts an argument, and the argument escalates to the point of people pulling handguns out to "prove" how right their argument is.  No shots were ever fired which is great, but that doesn't mean its not going to happen, and with people carrying anywhere they want (including bars) the chances of people getting hot-headed and resorting to their firearm to win the argument increases exponentially.

In Texas at least, being intoxicated while carrying a firearm is against the law. As is carrying a firearm into a bar (defined as any establishment which gets 51% or more of its business from alcohol sales).

Do people agree with those laws in Texas?  Because it seems odd to me that people would be fine not carrying guns into a bar but get upset when they can't carry them in other gun-free zones like colleges or stores.


The problem with this is that while a lot of level-headed people are going to feel that way, not everyone would.  I have hung out with my (redneck) family on a couple occasions where the booze is flowing, someone starts an argument, and the argument escalates to the point of people pulling handguns out to "prove" how right their argument is.  No shots were ever fired which is great, but that doesn't mean its not going to happen, and with people carrying anywhere they want (including bars) the chances of people getting hot-headed and resorting to their firearm to win the argument increases exponentially.

I'm calling BS on that story. People don't routinely pull guns on each other to "symbolically" prove a point. That sounds like some bad anti-gun propaganda.

So you're saying that angry and intoxicated people don't do things that they wouldn't normally do?  Because I would strongly beg to differ.

Besides, you can believe or disbelieve whatever you want as I'm not out to convert anyone here, I'm just sharing from personal experience some things that I have seen happen.
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Offline FreeCopy

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #107 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:14:47 »
This is a serious question and I'm genuinely curious but why do some of you commenting from outside of the US give even half a **** about our laws on guns?
Because I feel the need to stop you from hurting your selves, but serious time also then why will you not just change the Amendment its been done before what makes your right to bare arms so meaningful, in all honesty if what it was originally intended to do happened in this day and age you wouldn't stand a chance against taking out the government it just seems silly to everyone outside.

Protecting us from ourselves by means of restriction is a big brother sounding statement that further pushes the pro-gun attitude.

I don't think anyone believes they are going to take out the government. It's about even the remote idea of having a fighting chance, no matter how small that may be.
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #108 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:17:03 »
I find it very odd that law abiding gun owners, drinking or not, would ever brandish a weapon without having been in fear for their lives. That's been my experience growing up in an area where every home had at least one gun.

Brandishing is a crime and could even be considered assault with a deadly weapon or worse depending on the circumstances.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #109 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:17:35 »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I’m not attacking any arguments, so I don’t see how this is relevant.

You said you often feel angry while walking around in public, but a gun helps calm you down.

I was just elaborating about the cultural context that might cause people in your community to walk around feeling angry all the time.

You might think that my commentary is insulting toward Texas white men. That’s certainly true. I think that in general (not you specifically JD) white Texans are angry racist brutes who make policy based on paranoia rather than rational argument. Not at all the same as an ad hominem attack though.

(Seriously: 30 percent of polled Texans in a UT poll agree with the statement, “Humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time.” Another 30 percent said they “don’t know” whether the statement is true. I didn’t see a break down by gender, race, or party affiliation, but I suspect the number is even higher among white Republican men.)

You might even think my insulting statements are defamatory. If you want, I’m happy to provide sources backing them up.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:39:28 by jacobolus »

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #110 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:46:26 »
You said you often feel angry while walking around in public, but a gun helps calm you down.

Now, I don't think I did. At times = from time to time= infrequently.

I do get angry at people and their stupidity at times.
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Offline FreeCopy

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:48:59 »
This is a serious question and I'm genuinely curious but why do some of you commenting from outside of the US give even half a **** about our laws on guns?

I don't really, you are (clearly) free to go about murdering each other and I have little to no desire to ever visit the US. I just find the mentally of needing to own a tool that's only job is to kill things hilarious and quite sad, especially when you feel the need to have to carry it around with you...

I don't carry or feel the need to. Never have. My youngest brother does. He's been through carry classes and all the proper legal stuff.

Owning guns really is kind of a funny thing though. Do I or anyone else need an AK with a 100 round drum? Realistically? No ****ing way. Do I have just that? Of course. Does it bother me that some maniac also has this same access? Absolutely. I still don't feel the need to restrict myself or anyone else because of something someone might do. I don't believe I'm going to fight off any legal entities or criminals either. It is nice to be given the right to own and monitor myself with such a weapon.

I think arguing against guns in America is the same challenge as talking someone out of their religion and belief in God.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:49:14 »
So JD: How frequently are you angry enough to use a bold 250% larger font?

Offline pr0ximity

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:58:31 »
It's a complicated issue, I think sometimes people seem to forget that.

There are also definitely more important issues that citizens and the government in this country should be focusing their enegry on. Pretty embarassing that this is the issue people are so passionate about.
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 18:37:11 »
So JD: How frequently are you angry enough to use a bold 250% larger font?

Oh, I'm not even mad, bro. I don't tend to get angry over words on the internet.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 18:50:24 »
“Humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time.”
Another 30 percent said they “don’t know” whether the statement is true.

This is the kind of thing that makes me shiver. The US is failing spectacularly and the modern expanded "Bible Belt" is the heart of the cancer.
Mindbogglingly similar to the mode of ISIS.

https://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/category/education/

When you refer to books by Al Gore (remember him, the guy who won the 2000 presidential election by over half a million votes?) people tend to think of his pre-Vice-Presidential, proto-Inconvenient-Truth volume "Earth in the Balance" but the best and most interesting read is the later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Assault_on_Reason
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Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 19:02:14 »
lol u guys are ****posting, calm down nerds

rude and uncalled for. sorry
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:45:21 by Firebolt1914 »

Offline digi

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #117 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 19:08:28 »
Let's stay on topic boys


Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #118 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 19:38:33 »
Anyways, in all reality, both sides are focusing on the extremes. There are law-abiding gun owning citizens that carry not because they feel 'empowered', but mainly as an extra layer of protection in the worst scenarios possible. You may say that if there were no guns, this wouldn't be a problem. This is most definitely true, as if firearms were hard to get then many people would be discouraged to have them. However in a country that for its early years were kept up by guns, there will (to some, unfortunately) be a gun culture. Removing a well established culture by any means will be hard.

Regulations are perfectly fine; they may remove some of the possible fun such as going to the target range with something really awesome, like a retro AR, however the safety of others is more important. Again, it will unfortunately be insanely hard to put these regulations into action.
This is where pro gun is most likely correct. Since realistically, neither can happen, carrying a handgun is most likely the best defense against people that wish to harm you with another sort of firearm.

Also, it's considered to be inappropriate to generalize people in a derogatory fashion.

What should be done where both parties are happy?

(I'm probably going to be ignored/ideas discarded for previous post)
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 19:41:09 by Firebolt1914 »

Offline Lord of Narwhals

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #119 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:02:54 »
I support the 2nd Amendment, along with the rest of the Constitution, equally. The purpose of the Amendment, as written by the Founders, was to ensure an armed populace, ready to defend themselves against both foreign aggressors, as well as from the possibility of a tyrannical government in the future.

Mr. Obama continues to eschew the Constitution, rather than defend it, at every opportunity. The edict the issued forth this morning does nothing to increase safety. It was but theater, designed to make his legacy appear more substantial to future generations, while actually accomplishing nothing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
And for the record it's ridiculous that a document written hundreds of years ago in outdated English is considered to have any authority whatsoever on how to run a country in the 21st century.

Making it harder to buy guns to reduce gun crime is like trying to make it harder to buy a car to fight drunk drivers.  What this country needs is stricter punishments for crimes to the point where people are actually afraid to get caught.
Once self driving cars (or simply autos if you prefer that term) are the norm I believe driver licenses and "dumb cars" will become more heavily regulated to reduce the amount of deaths in traffic.
Stricter punishments don't work btw. Because people don't expect to be caught so they don't really care about the severity of the punishment.


As for the rest of this debate there are a few things I'd like to point out.

1. From a Swede's point of view I find the defense argument interesting since guns aren't defensive weapons. They were designed to be able to inflict harm on targets from a distance. The only reason the defense argument works in the US is because there already are so many guns. "I want a gun to protect myself from everyone else who has a gun" has become a legitimate argument for getting a gun, and when you think about it that's kind of insane. In countries like Sweden where guns are rare 'self defense' isn't a valid legal reason to purchase a weapon, it's not even a valid reason to purchase peppar spray.

2. The US needs to talk about suicide.
It's in my opinion the number one reason why stricter gun laws should be put in place. It's careless to let citizen buy hand guns so easily. There should at least be a waiting period between the time you order a gun and the time you actually get it.

3. Gun free zones aren't supposed to reduce the occurrence of planned mass shootings. They're supposed to reduce the amount of fights that escalate to the point where someone gets shot.

4. Why the **** are suppressors legal? Like seriously, why would anyone need one?

5. It's fascinating how how often the "If/When some bad guy breaks into my house"-argument gets brought up. Are burglaries that common or is it just paranoia?
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:45:30 by Lord of Narwhals »
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #120 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:05:17 »
I find it very odd that law abiding gun owners, drinking or not, would ever brandish a weapon without having been in fear for their lives. That's been my experience growing up in an area where every home had at least one gun.

Brandishing is a crime and could even be considered assault with a deadly weapon or worse depending on the circumstances.

Because not everyone treats firearms with the same respect that the majority of guns owners do, which is part of what I'm trying to say.  I have seen some of those same family members fighting outside high school basketball games with the visiting teams, to the point of getting arrested, so some of the problem is also obviously anger but guns also make that anger much more dangerous.
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Offline smknjoe

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #121 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:18:04 »
I find it very odd that law abiding gun owners, drinking or not, would ever brandish a weapon without having been in fear for their lives. That's been my experience growing up in an area where every home had at least one gun.

Brandishing is a crime and could even be considered assault with a deadly weapon or worse depending on the circumstances.

Because not everyone treats firearms with the same respect that the majority of guns owners do, which is part of what I'm trying to say.  I have seen some of those same family members fighting outside high school basketball games with the visiting teams, to the point of getting arrested, so some of the problem is also obviously anger but guns also make that anger much more dangerous.

You are describing criminal behavior that would not pass muster when trying to purchase a firearm in the US. Any conviction, and even just arrests in some cases, for assault of any kind will show up on current background checks and cause you to be declined. Not what I would call "law abiding" citizens.
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Offline Firebolt1914

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #122 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 20:22:52 »
Quote
4. Why the **** are silencers legal? Like seriously?

They're actually relatively hard to acquire. They require an NFA tax stamp which requires a fee of $200, a background check, and a waiting time of several months.

Contrary to popular belief, they are not silent at all. For example, a Glock 17 with an EVO 9 suppressor with UMC 147 supposedly has a report of 161.6 dB. With the suppressor, it is only 139.1 dB.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #123 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:22:51 »
I support the 2nd Amendment, along with the rest of the Constitution, equally. The purpose of the Amendment, as written by the Founders, was to ensure an armed populace, ready to defend themselves against both foreign aggressors, as well as from the possibility of a tyrannical government in the future.

Mr. Obama continues to eschew the Constitution, rather than defend it, at every opportunity. The edict the issued forth this morning does nothing to increase safety. It was but theater, designed to make his legacy appear more substantial to future generations, while actually accomplishing nothing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
And for the record it's ridiculous that a document written hundreds of years ago in outdated English is considered to have any authority whatsoever on how to run a country in the 21st century.

Making it harder to buy guns to reduce gun crime is like trying to make it harder to buy a car to fight drunk drivers.  What this country needs is stricter punishments for crimes to the point where people are actually afraid to get caught.
Once self driving cars (or simply autos if you prefer that term) are the norm I believe driver licenses and "dumb cars" will become more heavily regulated to reduce the amount of deaths in traffic.
Stricter punishments don't work btw. Because people don't expect to be caught so they don't really care about the severity of the punishment.


As for the rest of this debate there are a few things I'd like to point out.

1. From a Swede's point of view I find the defense argument interesting since guns aren't defensive weapons. They were designed to be able to inflict harm on targets from a distance. The only reason the defense argument works in the US is because there already are so many guns. "I want a gun to protect myself from everyone else who has a gun" has become a legitimate argument for getting a gun, and when you think about it that's kind of insane. In countries like Sweden where guns are rare 'self defense' isn't a valid legal reason to purchase a weapon, it's not even a valid reason to purchase peppar spray.

2. The US needs to talk about suicide.
It's in my opinion the number one reason why stricter gun laws should be put in place. It's careless to let citizen buy hand guns so easily. There should at least be a waiting period between the time you order a gun and the time you actually get it.

3. Gun free zones aren't supposed to reduce the occurrence of planned mass shootings. They're supposed to reduce the amount of fights that escalate to the point where someone gets shot.

4. Why the **** are suppressors legal? Like seriously, why would anyone need one?

5. It's fascinating how how often the "If/When some bad guy breaks into my house"-argument gets brought up. Are burglaries that common or is it just paranoia?

First of all, the documents you refer to were written by brilliantly educated, hard working, and forward thinking men. Perfect? Certainly not, but when the declaration of independence, the bill of rights, and other founding documents were written, the future was most certainly considered. They are the foundation of America without which, there is no reason to have our current government. We might as well start over.

1. Guns are defensive weapons when used for that purpose. They are sporting equipment when used for that purpose, and they are offensive weapons when used for that purpose. Hell, they could be paper weights, decorations, whatever the owner chooses.  The defense argument works because people defend themselves (often non-lethally) against those who may want to stab, rape, rob, etc. Thinking that people choose to own guns only to defend themselves from others with guns is misguided.

2. Suicide will not stop with stricter gun laws. People don't buy guns to kill themselves, even though they are more likely to follow through with the suicidal impulse if a gun is available. It's the "easy way out."  Taking a gun out of people's hands doesn't solve their problems. It doesn't make them any less suicidal or depressed. It's putting a bandage on a severed arm: you mean well, but you haven't solved the actual problem.

3. How many fights have you seen escalate to the point of someone getting shot?  How many of those stories are in the news?  Gun free zones are as silly as your argument. If your reasoning were sound, then they would be fight or argument free zones.

4. How many shooters (mass or otherwise) used suppressors?  Why do they need to be illegal?
Many people use suppressors for hunting. I think some areas may require them for certain calibers, though I could be mistaken on that point.  Also, they aren't fully silent as ignorantly portrayed in the movies. (They don't make that "cool" sound either.) They do reduce the  dB level of report from a firearm aiding in hearing protection. How many shooters (mass or otherwise) used suppressors?  Why do they need to be illegal?

5. I think there are on average >2 Million home burglaries/invasions per year in this country. In ~28 percent of those, someone is home. That's 560,000 people per year that are home when someone breaks in.

Your posts seem to indicate that you are against Americans having the right to own guns, but why? People don't stop being criminals or decide not to become one because no guns are available.  Guns haven't been around forever, but murder and suicide have.  I assure you, guns are not the problem. Removing them from the planet will not stop murders, suicides, or mass killings.  It also will not get rid of guns. You can bet dollars to doughnuts a black market would spring up for those who wished to procure a firearm, and I'm guessing most wouldn't be law-abiding citizens.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:25:04 »
To be fair, the gun show loophole is a pretty big one.

To put it in perspective, my job requires a pretty decent background check, and I just type on a keyboard all day. But I could go to a gun show and pick up a gun with little to no hassle. Doesn't exactly seem balanced.

All stores and licensed dealers are required to conduct a background check anywhere, even at gun shows.  Same for online. All those online dealers ship it to a FFL (Federal Firearm License) and go through a background check.

The usual gunshow loophole that I hear talked about is nothing more than me selling my personal property (eg firearm) to someone at a gun show. This can take place at a gun store, at my house, etc. There is no required background check for personal sales. The problem occurs, which I never hear any gun control advocates talk about is how to safely allow individuals to conduct a background check?  Most of them have been that you would go to an FFL and conduct a background check there. Problem being is that FFL's won't want to do this for free, in fast they usually cost $25-50.  That $25-50 could be an unfair burden on the poor - if an ID is too much to ask for to vote, I think an actual fee to use a right is also too much to ask.   *Slight edit: California requires this.

Whats the perfect solution? I don't know, but I never hear anyone even come close to it. Usually all feel-good legislation thinking with their emotions.

By the way. Pissing me off when people say we need to "compromise" on guns. Compromise means a give and take. It seems that it is only ever a take. You want stricter background checks? Absolutely, and in exchange how about we remove the $200 tax stamp off of suppressors and SBRs for starters.  I'm not saying remove them from the NFA, but that tax stamp is pretty stupid in my opinion.

Eh, Uncle Sam is always going to get his cut. The tax stamp doesn't bother me.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:31:54 »
To be fair, the gun show loophole is a pretty big one.

To put it in perspective, my job requires a pretty decent background check, and I just type on a keyboard all day. But I could go to a gun show and pick up a gun with little to no hassle. Doesn't exactly seem balanced.

All stores and licensed dealers are required to conduct a background check anywhere, even at gun shows.  Same for online. All those online dealers ship it to a FFL (Federal Firearm License) and go through a background check.

The usual gunshow loophole that I hear talked about is nothing more than me selling my personal property (eg firearm) to someone at a gun show. This can take place at a gun store, at my house, etc. There is no required background check for personal sales. The problem occurs, which I never hear any gun control advocates talk about is how to safely allow individuals to conduct a background check?  Most of them have been that you would go to an FFL and conduct a background check there. Problem being is that FFL's won't want to do this for free, in fast they usually cost $25-50.  That $25-50 could be an unfair burden on the poor - if an ID is too much to ask for to vote, I think an actual fee to use a right is also too much to ask.   *Slight edit: California requires this.

Whats the perfect solution? I don't know, but I never hear anyone even come close to it. Usually all feel-good legislation thinking with their emotions.

By the way. Pissing me off when people say we need to "compromise" on guns. Compromise means a give and take. It seems that it is only ever a take. You want stricter background checks? Absolutely, and in exchange how about we remove the $200 tax stamp off of suppressors and SBRs for starters.  I'm not saying remove them from the NFA, but that tax stamp is pretty stupid in my opinion.

True a $200 tax on a suppressor is insane. Guns are merely a tool for murdering other living things, why should they be taxed and forced behind arbitrary 'back ground checks', all that does is force crime to go to totally uncontrollable and unpolicable black markets which police don't have the time to investigate and stop because of bi-annual shoot shootings that happen nation wide.
It's not fair that the Government (of all people or bodies) should restrict our access to these tools, what next TAXING SPOONS?!

You should try a 3 gun match or IDPA sometime.  You'll quickly see that guns are not merely tools for murdering living things. They are just fun fun fun.
Also, crimes do not stop because guns are taken away. According to the FBI,
Quote
Information collected regarding types of weapons used in violent crime showed that firearms were used in 69.0 percent of the nation’s murders, 40.0 percent of robberies, and 21.6 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for rape.)

Following year over year, 5 year, and even 10 year  trends, violent crime has been consistently trending down (without nationally restrictive gun laws). How can this be?!

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:36:07 »
To be fair, the gun show loophole is a pretty big one.

To put it in perspective, my job requires a pretty decent background check, and I just type on a keyboard all day. But I could go to a gun show and pick up a gun with little to no hassle. Doesn't exactly seem balanced.

Exactly.  I'm pro gun and own guns, but closing the gun show sale loophole is a very sensible gun law change. 

Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that all new gun owners should be mandated to undergo firearm safety training and familiarization training on a range and established gun owners should undergo a brief safety course (even if just online) every 5-10 years for gun owners.  If you have to have training and a learner's permit, a test, and insurance to drive, it only makes sense for something equally dangerous to have safety requirements in place for you to buy it.

 :thumb: :thumb:

As an avid hunter and owner of firearms I agree with this.

Too many idiots out there, responsible people shouldn't need to worry if you're not doing anything wrong.

I agree with mandatory safety training for all first time gun owners.  Why not have a license that says you have undergone the requisite training to purchase firearms? That would be more money for the government and something I would support. They could still do point of sale background checks, but without the license they wouldn't even start it.  So long as the license is granted for anyone undergoing an initial background check and required safety training, I would gladly be behind the idea.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:44:00 »
[2] A 9mm will go through a number of pieces of drywall and still be deadly to the family you're supposedly protecting

Always be sure of you're target and what is beyond it.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:52:08 »


I'm anti gun

FTFY

And this is the problem, if you're not for everyone being able to carry their handgun into their daughters soccer game you're anti-gun.


No need to convince me, I already picked my side :).

I view this as a nuanced issue. It doesn't have to be "no guns anywhere" or "arm your children on their way to preschool."

And the NRA and the hardcore anti-gun nuts make it so there is no chance for discourse. Instead of facts there are emotions, instead of reason fear mongering.

I 100 percent agree. As with most issues, the loudest voices are the ones not worth hearing.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:05:57 »
There should absolutely be emotion involved. Gun violence is one of the leading causes of death in the US, unlike in any other developed country, and many of the victims are innocent children. Pro-gun activists in Congress have blocked any systematic study from being done related to gun violence, because if you did a study the results would be obvious: less guns and stricter gun access controls leads to dramatically reduced murder/suicide/accidental shooting rates, not to mention better relationships between citizens and police, an overall reduction in violence and crime, etc. Just look to Australia for a shining example. Our current gun laws are senseless brutality, and I consider the pro-gun activism in this country accessory to all these deaths.

I love America, but guns and cars (as in, organizing the whole society around cars, zoning laws which force car use, cities which are crazy unsafe for pedestrians/cyclists, etc.) are basically the #1 and #2 worst things about it. Two amazingly efficient killing machines. At least cars have a non-deadly primary purpose.

Guns don't even make the top ten, though they do play a large part in #10.
Heart disease: 611,105
Cancer: 584,881
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
Diabetes: 75,578
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149


Why has their been a steady decline in violent crimes in this country over the last 10+ years without any significant, nationally restrictive gun laws?  Go to a shooting match (3 gun, IDPA, skeet or trap). You'll absolutely love it. Guns, like cars, are fun.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #130 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:09:42 »

In Texas they allow concealed carry of guns in the middle of urban university campuses and inside the state capitol building. WTF?

Good, have you noticed how many of the mass murders that have taken place occurred in "Gun Free Zones".  All of them.

(Attachment Link)

People don't seem to understand this. They also don't understand that ridding the nation of firearms will not end violence; murders (mass or otherwise), suicides, or rape. Laws do not mean anything to criminals. Why does no one understand that?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #131 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:11:43 »
When you refer to books by Al Gore (remember him, the guy who won the 2000 presidential election by over half a million votes?)

Just to clear up a half truth. Although Al Gore did get more votes than President Bush, the winner of the 2000 election was Bush. In the US, our Presidents are elected based on the number of votes received by the Electoral College. The Bush/Gore decision was the fourth time in US history when the candidate with a higher vote count ending up losing the election. Some people still haven't accepted it. Other seemingly unfair outcomes have occurred in modern times including 3rd party spoilers such as Perot and Nader who probably siphoned off enough votes from a candidate who would have likely won otherwise.




Offline Air tree

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #132 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:21:20 »
Just sayin', **** the electoral college.

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #133 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:28:56 »
The thought of a random person carrying a gun in a hostile situation scares the **** out of me.  Why?  Because very, very few people who carry have been trained to deal with situations like that appropriately.  With the exception of military and police members, who have the appropriate training drilled into them over and over to the point that their reactions are almost involuntary, the majority of civilians would not react properly in a situation with a shooter and IMO would probably cause more harm than good. 

The chance of additional harm increases in the event of multiple people having firearms in a shooter situation, because they most likely have very limited knowledge of what is going on and could very possibly engage and take down another civilian who might be trying to stop the shooter(s) themselves.  I know a lot of gun owners like to think that they would be able to handle the situation properly and I applaud their tenacity in that regard, but I doubt the vast majority of those people have been in a high adrenaline situation before so I am much more skeptical of their abilities.

I do want to point out that I personally have no problems with guns or people owning guns, as I was raised around them and own one myself.  My issue is that a lot of gun owners seem to think that because they go to the range a couple times a year, shoot skeet with their buddies, and go hunting during deer season that they now are able to take down a shooter in a hostile and/or hostage situation, which is incorrect.

Guns have been used (non-lethally in most situations) to deter a would-be criminal more times per year than there are deaths by guns (including suicides and negligence). Unfortunately the statistics you always hear or read only mention the few instances where someone using a gun in self defense actually fires it. 

Offline Hispes

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #134 on: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:31:40 »
I personally find it has the opposite effect. When I am carrying, I tend to be in a more relaxed mood, and don't get angered easily. Knowing you have that power within easy reach, but not wanting to resort to using it, is quite comforting.
JD I say this in utmost seriousness, right now I feel you need to get a rain check because you sound like a ****ing nut, being pleased and relaxed you have the ability to end someone's life as you put it, is not something that should relax any person trained or otherwise all I'm saying is I want you to think about what you just said as you come off to someone who does not know you personally as a crazy.

So much this.  My first duty is to protect myself and family. If a fight can be avoided, then I'm definitely one to remove myself from a situation.  If however, the fight corners me or my family, and my only recourse is to shoot, I've made my peace with it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 January 2016, 23:38:47 by Hispes »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #135 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:03:23 »
lol u guys are ****posting, calm down nerds ¶ rude and uncalled for. sorry
Nah you’re right, I was straight trolling. I do think guns in public are a menace to society though, and I’m thankful that I live in a more civilized place.

Offline tbc

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #136 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:08:25 »
To be fair, the gun show loophole is a pretty big one.

To put it in perspective, my job requires a pretty decent background check, and I just type on a keyboard all day. But I could go to a gun show and pick up a gun with little to no hassle. Doesn't exactly seem balanced.

Exactly.  I'm pro gun and own guns, but closing the gun show sale loophole is a very sensible gun law change. 

Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that all new gun owners should be mandated to undergo firearm safety training and familiarization training on a range and established gun owners should undergo a brief safety course (even if just online) every 5-10 years for gun owners.  If you have to have training and a learner's permit, a test, and insurance to drive, it only makes sense for something equally dangerous to have safety requirements in place for you to buy it.

equally dangerous?

i would think that a gun is MORE dangerous because it doesn't cost anything to the user.  to run over someone with a car, at least you end up paying for dents and new paint (bullets aren't very expensive in comparison).
ALL zombros wanted:  dead or undead or dead-dead.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #137 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:11:20 »
Making it harder to buy guns to reduce gun crime is like trying to make it harder to buy a car to fight drunk drivers.  What this country needs is stricter punishments for crimes to the point where people are actually afraid to get caught.
Once self driving cars (or simply autos if you prefer that term) are the norm I believe driver licenses and "dumb cars" will become more heavily regulated to reduce the amount of deaths in traffic.
I actually suspect the bigger driver of change to be liability. Once there are self-driving cars, we can slowly increase individual liability for folks who choose to drive, and their insurance prices will go up until driving is a hobby for rich people who drive very carefully.

Guns could be similar, if properly regulated. For instance, if every gun and every bullet was imprinted with a serial number, and the manufacturer was directly liable for any shooting which didn’t have a legally documented purchaser, then original gun purchases would all be carefully documented. If that liability followed along the chain of documented ownership, so that someone privately selling their gun had to file paperwork officially transferring liability to the new owner or face damages in the case the gun was used improperly, things would clean up fast. People would be a lot more careful about where their guns were, and would be quicker to report their guns missing/stolen, and we’d do a much better job keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #138 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:13:27 »
Just to clear up a half truth. Although Al Gore did get more votes than President Bush, the winner of the 2000 election was Bush. In the US, our Presidents are elected based on the number of votes received by the Electoral College.
In the US, our elections are decided by the 5 conservative members of the supreme court, and by the candidate’s governor brother and his cronies. Plus whoever programs the Diebold voting machines.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 January 2016, 01:02:44 by jacobolus »

Offline jaffers

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #139 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:43:32 »

Offline baldgye

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #140 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:55:48 »
This is a serious question and I'm genuinely curious but why do some of you commenting from outside of the US give even half a **** about our laws on guns?

I don't really, you are (clearly) free to go about murdering each other and I have little to no desire to ever visit the US. I just find the mentally of needing to own a tool that's only job is to kill things hilarious and quite sad, especially when you feel the need to have to carry it around with you...

I don't carry or feel the need to. Never have. My youngest brother does. He's been through carry classes and all the proper legal stuff.

Owning guns really is kind of a funny thing though. Do I or anyone else need an AK with a 100 round drum? Realistically? No ****ing way. Do I have just that? Of course. Does it bother me that some maniac also has this same access? Absolutely. I still don't feel the need to restrict myself or anyone else because of something someone might do. I don't believe I'm going to fight off any legal entities or criminals either. It is nice to be given the right to own and monitor myself with such a weapon.

I think arguing against guns in America is the same challenge as talking someone out of their religion and belief in God.

I would agree, which is insane and backs up my point that there is no logical reason to own a gun for protection.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #141 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 00:58:04 »
Guns don't even make the top ten, though they do play a large part in #10.
Heart disease: 611,105
Cancer: 584,881
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767
Diabetes: 75,578
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149
I believe guns are a small part of #4 Accidents, in addition to #10.

#1, #4, #6, and possibly #5 are mainly caused by poor diet, stress, lack of exercise
#2, #3 are heavily related to smoking, air pollution, industrial jobs, and then a myriad of tiny factors, and mostly lead to death among the elderly
#8 mainly kills people with compromised immune systems, again mostly elderly
#9 is related to a pretty wide variety of underlying issues (various viral infections, cancer, diabetes, certain drugs, ...)

In any case, most of these things are either completely random and unavoidable “acts of god” which we have no way to work on as a society beyond improvements to medical treatment and continuing research, or else are personally avoidable via good lifestyle choices (sleep, diet, exercise, etc.). Gun and car deaths, however, are both largely avoidable at a societal level, and are inflicted on innocent people who have limited choice in eliminating the risk. To be safe, it’s possible to move to areas with walkable neighborhoods, good transit, and no rednecks packing heat, but that’s still no guarantee that a drunk driver won’t hit you or a cop won’t randomly shoot you in the back (though this is more of a problem for non-whites).

* * *

If we really wanted to organize our society around reducing all-cause death rates, the #1 priority would be to reduce poverty, unemployment, and income inequality. The ideal approach would be to tax the **** out of inheritances, wealth of all kinds (especially property), and have very high marginal income tax rates at the top end (e.g. anything past $1M income could be taxed at 80%), with capital gains treated as income. This money could then be distributed widely as an unconditional basic income to all citizens (or even all residents). This is not politically feasible in the post-Reagan greed-is-god era, but would have a great effect on many causes of death including in particular heart disease, strokes, respiratory diseases, accidents, diabetes, and self harm, and would also greatly reduce crime and violence in general. Other policy goals in this general area include de-financialization of the economy, increased infrastructure spending, reform of the criminal justice system, and dramatic education policy reform, in particular spreading a lot more money to schools in poor neighborhoods.

Priority #2 would be to get everyone into a single-payer healthcare system. The current US healthcare system is the most inefficient in the world, combining incredibly high prices with awful outcomes. We could pick pretty much any other developed country in the world as a model for something better. There are lots of choices in the details.

Priority #3 would be to change cost/incentives related to poor diets, by dramatically changing agriculture policy to reduce subsidies for corn, wheat, and soybeans, institute high taxes on sweeteners of all kinds, make heavily processed foods and restaurant fast food more expensive, and improve access to fresh vegetables nationwide. I’m sure there are industrial-scale ways of efficiently getting basic nutrients to people if we put our brightest minds on the task.

After that, the changes are going to be much harder. Changing nationwide zoning laws to restructure all of our urban areas into more walkable mixed-use neighborhoods with better access to jobs, stores, and public transit is a nearly impossible challenge at this point. Unfortunately, whether we do anything grand as a nation or not, many suburbs are going to become bankrupt ghost towns in the coming decades, with infrastructure maintenance costs outstripping available tax revenue.

Changing work culture so that professionals don’t spend 10 years in awful hazing rituals like medical residencies and junior positions in law firms, and stick to <40 hours/workweek or less is going to be pretty difficult. For whatever reason, Americans love to work and firms love to force more work hours, even when it can be clearly demonstrated that working more hours leads to quickly diminishing returns and at some point negative returns. Providing better childcare benefits, proper enforcement of sick days, sufficient vacation, etc. is going to be a political non-starter in a country where labor is now entirely defanged.

Etc.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 January 2016, 01:00:24 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 01:44:15 »
While you're raising the cost of and restricting peoples lifestyles, maybe you should include a ban or maybe a 500 percent tax on alcohol? I'm sure a large number of those accidents are caused by intoxicated drivers.

I'm all for self improvement and encouraging healthful lifestyles but to trust the Federal Government with that degree of social engineering is frightening.


Offline fanpeople

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 01:51:47 »
maybe a 500 percent tax on alcohol?

Have you been skyping with the Australian government for social engineering ideas or something ?

Offline baldgye

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 02:06:36 »
I'm all for self improvement and encouraging healthful lifestyles but to trust the Federal Government with that degree of social engineering is frightening.

Better to have private companies do it?

Offline kurplop

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 02:11:14 »
maybe a 500 percent tax on alcohol?

Have you been skyping with the Australian government for social engineering ideas or something ?

Please explain.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #146 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 02:25:37 »
While you're raising the cost of and restricting peoples lifestyles,
Well notice we’re compensating by paying every citizen a fat check, at least $1000/month, or maybe double or triple that if possible. Instead of thinking of this as “restricting people’s lifestyles”, the better frame is “passing the external costs of people’s lifestyles onto them directly, so they can make choices with better information.” I have no problem with e.g. people eating beef (I love beef), but when every dollar of beef consumption costs several dollars of environmental destruction and unrecoverable water use, then the economy is broken, and folks will end up eating unsustainable amounts of beef who would be perfectly fine if they mostly ate chicken or pork instead. Same story for single couples living in 3000 square foot houses and heating them to 72° year-round, or people commuting weekly by airplane trip, or people driving their SUVs 200 miles/day with one person in the car not hauling anything, or people wearing a new set of clothes every day and throwing them in the trash at the end, or whatever else. The choice should be left up to the individual, but the prices should be adjusted so the next generation isn’t left completely ****ed.

Quote
maybe you should include a ban or maybe a 500 percent tax on alcohol?
Increased taxes on alcohol sounds fine, though I’m not sure how much it’ll help. Banning alcohol seems likely to cause as many problems as it solves.

Real problem isn’t alcohol per se, but binge drinking and drunk driving. Hopefully some combination of self-driving cars and better urban design (bars in walking distance of homes) and maybe raising the legal driving age to 18 or higher can take care of some of the drunk driving part. Massively increased liability for drunk driving accidents could also help. Maybe get rid of parking at bars? For binge drinking among young people, I think the best solution is to lower the legal drinking age, as effectively nobody respects the 21 cutoff. Most of Europe seems to have a much healthier drinking culture than the US, especially among college students. Beyond that, we mainly need better mental health care and generally improved social support. A lot of drinking is caused by environmental stresses such as poverty, unemployment, violence in the community, fragile family lives, etc.

Same story for prescription painkillers or illegal drugs. Some use is recreation by people who want to have fun. We should strive to give people safe legal options and minimize third-party harm from that. Some part is pure addiction, and the best help for that is improved mental healthcare, support for rehabilitation, etc. Other use is people whose lives are ****ed who just want to forget everything. This can’t really be solved without tackling the underlying social problems like massive inequality, unemployment, poverty, workplace stress, racism, etc.

Quote
I'm all for self improvement and encouraging healthful lifestyles but to trust the Federal Government with that degree of social engineering is frightening.
We already have absolutely massive state- and society-controlled social engineering. Every aspect of our lives is strictly constrained by the prevailing economic and social order. The reasons people have become much less healthy (in certain respects) in the past few decades owe to large-scale forces, not individual choices. I actually would prefer less overall state intrusion into people’s daily lives (also less corporate intrusion). My proposals are mostly redirecting state efforts, rather than increasing their scope. For instance, implementing an unconditional basic income instead of a hodge-podge of means-tested welfare programs will dramatically reduce state intervention into people’s daily choices.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 January 2016, 02:47:41 by jacobolus »

Offline fanpeople

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #147 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 03:02:50 »
maybe a 500 percent tax on alcohol?

Have you been skyping with the Australian government for social engineering ideas or something ?

Please explain.

Australia govt likes to tax the crap out of booze, more so tobacco. They have been hiking tax on tobacco, for the past couple of years as a way of making it non-appealing to future generations and current smokers. This has been to the point where I know a bunch of smokers that earn 6 figures yet smoke rollies, traditionally reserved for those reliant on the 'dole' for income. Do I think the overall result is worth it, yes. Do I think that they should just bite the bullet and ban tobacco, yes. Am I an on again, off again smoker... yes. Do I love smoking... yes. Fact of the matter is that current tobacco products in the form of tailor-made were designed to be highly addictive and fast acting so much so that if my memory of the assignment I did on tobacco a few years ago serves me well, that the number of smokers rose dramatically after the introduction of cigarettes. This was also a combination of aggressive marketing and govt ties etc.

tl;dr: Straya tax tobacco till it goes away.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #148 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 03:03:22 »
I'm all for self improvement and encouraging healthful lifestyles but to trust the Federal Government with that degree of social engineering is frightening.

Better to have private companies do it?

Neither.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Obama restricts gun rights of "hobbyists"
« Reply #149 on: Thu, 07 January 2016, 03:17:20 »
Fanpeople      Thanks for the explanation.