Which Model M is the "best"? - there are rules of engagement

[ac2ev]

Ok, first this post is not to incite a riot among keyboard enthusiasts. Neither is it a this brand is better than X. We're talking about the model M only.

That being said, the IBM model M has a long lineage and I'm sure there were modifications and changes along the way.

We'll first split this discussion into two categories.

The full size IBM Model M and the spacesaver Model M (SSK).

Of these which vintage/model/part number had the best mechanical/electrical design and overall quality? Perhaps manufacturing standards were tight enough that they all perform the same. Maybe Lexmark let things slip one year, maybe there was a year that they skimped on plastic and one is weaker and has a tendency to fail more often. This is what I want to vet out.

If you were to want 1 keyboard that you would use every day which one would it be. Rarity doesn't necessarily equal superiority.


Why do I care? I like a challenge, I'm going to hunt down this keyboard, restore and use it.

[fohat.digs]

For me, the 1390131 is the one to get. It has the heavy internal plate and LEDs. There are even a few with "bar code" labels.

Orihalcon's SDL-to-USB cables are pricey but a nice finishing touch.

[E TwentyNine]

Generally speaking, the older the board the better.

[Bucake]

For me, the 1390131 is the one to get. It has the heavy internal plate and LEDs. There are even a few with "bar code" labels.

really, it has a thicker plate than the later models?
any idea if the 1390120 also has the thicker plate?

[Techno Trousers]

For me, the 1390131 is the one to get. It has the heavy internal plate and LEDs. There are even a few with "bar code" labels.

Orihalcon's SDL-to-USB cables are pricey but a nice finishing touch.

Yep, I'm glad I bought a bar code 1390131, back before I even knew what I was doing. I have strong suspicion I will like it even better if the FSSK/FEXM project to retrofit capacitive buckling spring into the Model M and SSK comes to fruition! Having the Model F feel in a Model M form factor could be the best of both worlds.

[neverused]

The one you customize yourself (wip):

[Techno Trousers]

Hmm... Poor man's Kishsaver? Nice! Did you do a writeup on how you built that?

[fohat.digs]

really, it has a thicker plate than the later models?
any idea if the 1390120 also has the thicker plate?

The early ones had much heavier plates. The earliest ones had a shiny yellow/gold finish, later the usual dull gray.

It seems that different plants changed over to lighter plates at widely different times, but likely any 1985-86 (including 1391401s and old terminals) will have the heavy ones, 1987s "probably", and 1988s "maybe" at best.

I really like the square metal badges on the right rather than oval plastic labels on the left, but 1390131 is the only one with LEDs.

[chyros]

For me, the 1390131 is the one to get. It has the heavy internal plate and LEDs. There are even a few with "bar code" labels.

really, it has a thicker plate than the later models?

There were several thicknesses of plates, and they decreased over time. Newer boards generally weigh about 2.0 kg, whereas most old models weigh about 2.2 kg. The very oldest ones have a (presumably heat-treated) rainbow steel plate that's even thicker, bringing it to as much as 2.5 kg.

[pr0ximity]

The early ones had much heavier plates. The earliest ones had a shiny yellow/gold finish, later the usual dull gray.

It seems that different plants changed over to lighter plates at widely different times, but likely any 1985-86 (including 1391401s and old terminals) will have the heavy ones, 1987s "probably", and 1988s "maybe" at best.

I really like the square metal badges on the right rather than oval plastic labels on the left, but 1390131 is the only one with LEDs.

LEDs? We don' need no stinkin' LEDs!

1390120 for me, I actually prefer the look of it to the models with LEDs, and I never use any of the functions associated with indicators anyways.

[chyros]

Tbh in terms of typing feel there really isn't a difference. Many feel that the heavier weight of older boards lends them a certain presence, and the 1st-gen square metal badge is widely considered more appealing than the plastic oval ones, like Fohat mentioned. I myself am particularly fond of the square black metal badge on the 1388032.

[fohat.digs]

I myself am particularly fond of the square black metal badge on the 1388032.

Seriously wicked. Is that the one where the case shell is painted?

[chyros]

I myself am particularly fond of the square black metal badge on the 1388032.

Seriously wicked. Is that the one where the case shell is painted?

That's mine yeah, but I only used that because its has the same badge as the 1388032. It would appear mine is actually a prototype. That would explain why it came with random caps, a German case (a painted one too, rather than intrinsically grey, as I think it was you who pointed out), no trace of a label (prototypes didn't have labels) and parts from 1984 (!) that predate even the first Model Ms (it shares production dates with a confirmed prototype).

[fohat.digs]

and parts from 1984 (!) that predate even the first Model Ms (it shares production dates with a confirmed prototype).

Woo-hoo, does it have the fabled "mandolin crystal"?
And Mandolin was shamelessly dissed and subsequently left our group.

Amazing that important artifacts from the "computer age" itself are seemingly undocumented and need to be reconstructed decades later, when computers were implemented with the ability to memorialize everything. Daniel Beardsmore is a perfect case in point.

How sad that it all has to devolve into a miasma of muddy information and bickering.

[chyros]

and parts from 1984 (!) that predate even the first Model Ms (it shares production dates with a confirmed prototype).

Woo-hoo, does it have the fabled "mandolin crystal"?
And Mandolin was shamelessly dissed and subsequently left our group.

Haha, yeah, I heard of the whole Mandolin fiasco on Deskthority xD . Which is where some people helped me identify all the features of my keyboard (some people there helped me a lot with this keyboard there, they were very knowledgeable about these extremely early Ms and they identified all these features (I had no idea obviously xD)). But yes, it does have a mandolin crystal .

[jeffrey_tk]

I have used full-size Model Ms for many years.

For the past year I daily use the SSK at home and work.

Big Win:
The SSK makes it easier to move to/from the mouse.

I never use the numpad, though there is "numpad mode" for the SSK.

One of my computers does not have a numlock at power up setting, so I have to remember to turn that off at every reboot before typing my password. No LED to show you the setting, so minor thing that crops up once in a while.

[E TwentyNine]

That's mine yeah, but I only used that because its has the same badge as the 1388032. It would appear mine is actually a prototype. That would explain why it came with random caps, a German case (a painted one too, rather than intrinsically grey, as I think it was you who pointed out), no trace of a label (prototypes didn't have labels) and parts from 1984 (!) that predate even the first Model Ms (it shares production dates with a confirmed prototype).

It's a very exclusive club.

[E TwentyNine]

Haha, yeah, I heard of the whole Mandolin fiasco on Deskthority xD . Which is where some people helped me identify all the features of my keyboard (some people there helped me a lot with this keyboard there, they were very knowledgeable about these extremely early Ms and they identified all these features (I had no idea obviously xD)). But yes, it does have a mandolin crystal .

The whole Mandolin fiasco started here.  Mandolin saw my board and the talk of how early and rare it was, and thought his later production model was somehow equivalent.  Dope listed it on ebay (with the same details as mine for which I gave him ****) for some ungodly amount and I think eventually he did supposedly get a nice chunk of change for it ( $600? ).

[E TwentyNine]

I have used full-size Model Ms for many years.

For the past year I daily use the SSK at home and work.

Big Win:
The SSK makes it easier to move to/from the mouse.

I never use the numpad, though there is "numpad mode" for the SSK.

One of my computers does not have a numlock at power up setting, so I have to remember to turn that off at every reboot before typing my password. No LED to show you the setting, so minor thing that crops up once in a while.

I had used a home made SSK for a while by chopping off the numpad on a full size.  I didn't miss the embedded numpad at all.  My current daily driver is an SSK and the only time I notice the numpad is when I accidentally turn it on I try to type something and end up typing s60eth5ng.

[Techno Trousers]

My current daily driver is an SSK and the only time I notice the numpad is when I accidentally turn it on I try to type something and end up typing s60eth5ng.

Yeah, that was my least favorite thing about my SSK. You have to dig into the BIOS of the PC and make sure that NumLock is off by default, or hit the NumLock key combo after each boot.

Yet another reason to convert it to an FSSK!

[neverused]

Hmm... Poor man's Kishsaver? Nice! Did you do a writeup on how you built that?

Soon... Once it's done.

[Snowdog993]

Ok, first this post is not to incite a riot among keyboard enthusiasts. Neither is it a this brand is better than X. We're talking about the model M only.

That being said, the IBM model M has a long lineage and I'm sure there were modifications and changes along the way.

We'll first split this discussion into two categories.

The full size IBM Model M and the spacesaver Model M (SSK).

Of these which vintage/model/part number had the best mechanical/electrical design and overall quality? Perhaps manufacturing standards were tight enough that they all perform the same. Maybe Lexmark let things slip one year, maybe there was a year that they skimped on plastic and one is weaker and has a tendency to fail more often. This is what I want to vet out.

If you were to want 1 keyboard that you would use every day which one would it be. Rarity doesn't necessarily equal superiority.


Why do I care? I like a challenge, I'm going to hunt down this keyboard, restore and use it.

Among all Model M keyboards?  I will say that essentially, they feel the same across the board to use.  That being said, each keyboard feels unique to itself.  It really depends on the condition of the keyboard.  If they are all new, they would feel the same, right?
Condition is a serious factor here.  You can get a "NIB" SSK or 101 and it could be entirely unusable because the plastic rivets have completely sprung from the steel backing plate.
If that is the case, you need to have it bolt-modded.  Once you have a bolt-mod done, your Model M will most likely feel and perform like new.
Arguably, the first-generation Model M had a heavier galvanized steel backing plate that has a goldish-rainbow color to it.  It is slightly heavier, and the older clam shell cases that the mechanism sits in are essentially the same.
Does it make it better electrically?  I don't think so.  The controllers have changed a bit over the years, getting smaller and smaller in form, but the function is the same.
The good news, up until the 3rd generation of Model M, you can swap the controllers easily between keyboards due to the keyboard matrix being the same, and the pinouts being the same on all the controllers along the line.  (There is more to this than what I am saying, but I am generalizing)

I have an SSK, is it better?  I don't think so.  It is compact and very usable.  I guess if you feel you can use a keyboard without a built-in numpad, it's a benefit.  Just don't activate the numlock on the SSK, unless you plan on using that layer for a numpad and unlock it again.  (I find that very annoying)
The good news is I have a LED indicator for both num lock and scroll lock being on, so I can switch it off and know it is off.

The keyboard I use as a daily driver is my 1392595 terminal board I converted to use with my PC.  I love it!  It looks great and does the job.

http://imgur.com/a/O7ayY

Does it make it any better than the rest?  Honestly, no.

[Touch_It]

For me, the 1390131 is the one to get. It has the heavy internal plate and LEDs. There are even a few with "bar code" labels.

Orihalcon's SDL-to-USB cables are pricey but a nice finishing touch.

I was lucky to get one of these made in 1986 (older than me). I can say for sure that it feels way different than my terminal m from 1992.  Better?  I think so, but that is subjective.

[Bucake]

all my keyboards are so normal and common

[chyros]

Haha, yeah, I heard of the whole Mandolin fiasco on Deskthority xD . Which is where some people helped me identify all the features of my keyboard (some people there helped me a lot with this keyboard there, they were very knowledgeable about these extremely early Ms and they identified all these features (I had no idea obviously xD)). But yes, it does have a mandolin crystal .

The whole Mandolin fiasco started here.  Mandolin saw my board and the talk of how early and rare it was, and thought his later production model was somehow equivalent.  Dope listed it on ebay (with the same details as mine for which I gave him ****) for some ungodly amount and I think eventually he did supposedly get a nice chunk of change for it ( $600? ).

) Yeah I can see why people wouldn't want to take him seriously for that... Definitely a nice chunk of change, that (although I have no intention of selling mine). Yours was the one that also had a '84 controller as I recall, right?

[Snowdog993]

Haha, yeah, I heard of the whole Mandolin fiasco on Deskthority xD . Which is where some people helped me identify all the features of my keyboard (some people there helped me a lot with this keyboard there, they were very knowledgeable about these extremely early Ms and they identified all these features (I had no idea obviously xD)). But yes, it does have a mandolin crystal .

The whole Mandolin fiasco started here.  Mandolin saw my board and the talk of how early and rare it was, and thought his later production model was somehow equivalent.  Dope listed it on ebay (with the same details as mine for which I gave him ****) for some ungodly amount and I think eventually he did supposedly get a nice chunk of change for it ( $600? ).

) Yeah I can see why people wouldn't want to take him seriously for that... Definitely a nice chunk of change, that (although I have no intention of selling mine). Yours was the one that also had a '84 controller as I recall, right?

Hahaha!  Reminds me of another thread in Great Finds!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76701.msg1926573#msg1926573
The end result is here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=76701.msg1943693#msg1943693

[ac2ev]

Thanks for all the great info. I'll keep my eye out for older boards.  For now I'll have to stick with my 1991 model. I started looking at the Ssk but I'm used to a full keyboard and actually learned how to use the number pad.

[fohat.digs]

I'll keep my eye out for older boards.  For now I'll have to stick with my 1991 model.

My first Model M was a 1991 beige label and it is still one of the best, dead stock and unmodified in any way.

If you are determined NOT to use the numpad then look for an SSK and bury the Numlock so that it does not make you insane, but otherwise enjoy the standard.

[losing_ctrl]

Ok, first this post is not to incite a riot among keyboard enthusiasts. Neither is it a this brand is better than X. We're talking about the model M only.

That being said, the IBM model M has a long lineage and I'm sure there were modifications and changes along the way.

We'll first split this discussion into two categories.

The full size IBM Model M and the spacesaver Model M (SSK).

Of these which vintage/model/part number had the best mechanical/electrical design and overall quality? Perhaps manufacturing standards were tight enough that they all perform the same. Maybe Lexmark let things slip one year, maybe there was a year that they skimped on plastic and one is weaker and has a tendency to fail more often. This is what I want to vet out.

If you were to want 1 keyboard that you would use every day which one would it be. Rarity doesn't necessarily equal superiority.


Why do I care? I like a challenge, I'm going to hunt down this keyboard, restore and use it.

Among all Model M keyboards?  I will say that essentially, they feel the same across the board to use.  That being said, each keyboard feels unique to itself.  It really depends on the condition of the keyboard.  If they are all new, they would feel the same, right?
Condition is a serious factor here.  You can get a "NIB" SSK or 101 and it could be entirely unusable because the plastic rivets have completely sprung from the steel backing plate.
If that is the case, you need to have it bolt-modded.  Once you have a bolt-mod done, your Model M will most likely feel and perform like new.
Arguably, the first-generation Model M had a heavier galvanized steel backing plate that has a goldish-rainbow color to it.  It is slightly heavier, and the older clam shell cases that the mechanism sits in are essentially the same.
Does it make it better electrically?  I don't think so.  The controllers have changed a bit over the years, getting smaller and smaller in form, but the function is the same.
The good news, up until the 3rd generation of Model M, you can swap the controllers easily between keyboards due to the keyboard matrix being the same, and the pinouts being the same on all the controllers along the line.  (There is more to this than what I am saying, but I am generalizing)

I have an SSK, is it better?  I don't think so.  It is compact and very usable.  I guess if you feel you can use a keyboard without a built-in numpad, it's a benefit.  Just don't activate the numlock on the SSK, unless you plan on using that layer for a numpad and unlock it again.  (I find that very annoying)
The good news is I have a LED indicator for both num lock and scroll lock being on, so I can switch it off and know it is off.

The keyboard I use as a daily driver is my 1392595 terminal board I converted to use with my PC.  I love it!  It looks great and does the job.

http://imgur.com/a/O7ayY

Does it make it any better than the rest?  Honestly, no.

That is a really nice looking keyboard! I have two Model Ms, but my favorite is my silver label:

[Techno Trousers]

That original square metal logo really is the best. The plastic oval versions just can't compare.

[losing_ctrl]

I forgot to add that I feel that my silver label has a slightly smoother and lighter touch than my later model Oval label from the early 90's - that's probably why I prefer it. It could be that it just got much more wear over the years. If only I had an unlimited budget, I would get every iteration of the Model M and take some quality time to compare and contrast.

[Snowdog993]

I forgot to add that I feel that my silver label has a slightly smoother and lighter touch than my later model Oval label from the early 90's - that's probably why I prefer it. It could be that it just got much more wear over the years. If only I had an unlimited budget, I would get every iteration of the Model M and take some quality time to compare and contrast.

I think I have a good resume.
Just one

More

| IBM 1389162~ 29-Apr-88 | IBM 1395162 26-Apr-89 | IBM 1395665* 19-Dec-89 | IBM 1393464 16-Jan-90 | IBM 1391401 30-Oct-91 | IBM 1391401 18-Dec-91 | +IBM 1391401 12-Mar-92 | IBM 1392595* 04-May-92 | IBM 1392934~ 05-Aug-92 | Lexmark 1398601 05-Oct-92 | IBM 51G8572 15-Apr-93 | IBM 1391401  19-May-93 | IBM 1392595* 21-May-93 | IBM 1395162* 13-Jun-94 | Lexmark 1397961 03-Oct-94 | IBM 51G8572 04-Oct-94 | IBM 1370477 13-Feb-95 | IBM 1392595 17-Mar-95 | IBM 1370477 11-Sep-95 | IBM 13H6705 10-Jan-97 | IBM 92G7461 20-Mar-98 | IBM 1394204* 28-Jun-99 | Unicomp UNI0446 01-Dec-2014 |

Boards with * are changed to standard SDL controller.
Boards with ~ are changed to USB Colossus controller.
Boards with + are in process of restoration.

...

[chyros]

I forgot to add that I feel that my silver label has a slightly smoother and lighter touch than my later model Oval label from the early 90's - that's probably why I prefer it. It could be that it just got much more wear over the years. If only I had an unlimited budget, I would get every iteration of the Model M and take some quality time to compare and contrast.

There is no appreciable difference in typing feel between old and new Model Ms. This is a stubborn myth as far as I'm concerned. I've had a fair few, from '85 to '95, and they all felt pretty much the same.

[fohat.digs]

There is no appreciable difference in typing feel between old and new Model Ms. This is a stubborn myth as far as I'm concerned. I've had a fair few, from '85 to '95, and they all felt pretty much the same.

I would have to nit-pick and disagree here, unless your definition of "appreciable" = "significant" in which case I agree that the differences are not truly significant.

However, the sounds and feels of the old heavy ones are often (but not always, every IBM buckling spring keyboard has a personality of its own) more solid yet smoother and lighter, which I attribute to the additional mass resisting the typing pressure and possibly better quality control. As an aside, all of mine were US-made except for the 3 Model Ms that I have had from Greenock (all very-late-1990s 42Hs) which were broken and terrible, but presumably standards were much higher in the early days.

This is also probably related to why people are often under-whelmed with the results of a bolt-mod, after that amount of work and aggravation they probably expect more than a subtle improvement.

[E TwentyNine]

....

What he said.

[losing_ctrl]

I forgot to add that I feel that my silver label has a slightly smoother and lighter touch than my later model Oval label from the early 90's - that's probably why I prefer it. It could be that it just got much more wear over the years. If only I had an unlimited budget, I would get every iteration of the Model M and take some quality time to compare and contrast.

I think I have a good resume.
Just one

More

| IBM 1389162~ 29-Apr-88 | IBM 1395162 26-Apr-89 | IBM 1395665* 19-Dec-89 | IBM 1393464 16-Jan-90 | IBM 1391401 30-Oct-91 | IBM 1391401 18-Dec-91 | +IBM 1391401 12-Mar-92 | IBM 1392595* 04-May-92 | IBM 1392934~ 05-Aug-92 | Lexmark 1398601 05-Oct-92 | IBM 51G8572 15-Apr-93 | IBM 1391401  19-May-93 | IBM 1392595* 21-May-93 | IBM 1395162* 13-Jun-94 | Lexmark 1397961 03-Oct-94 | IBM 51G8572 04-Oct-94 | IBM 1370477 13-Feb-95 | IBM 1392595 17-Mar-95 | IBM 1370477 11-Sep-95 | IBM 13H6705 10-Jan-97 | IBM 92G7461 20-Mar-98 | IBM 1394204* 28-Jun-99 | Unicomp UNI0446 01-Dec-2014 |

Boards with * are changed to standard SDL controller.
Boards with ~ are changed to USB Colossus controller.
Boards with + are in process of restoration.

...

Wow, that's an awesome collection there!

[chyros]

There is no appreciable difference in typing feel between old and new Model Ms. This is a stubborn myth as far as I'm concerned. I've had a fair few, from '85 to '95, and they all felt pretty much the same.

I would have to nit-pick and disagree here, unless your definition of "appreciable" = "significant" in which case I agree that the differences are not truly significant.

However, the sounds and feels of the old heavy ones are often (but not always, every IBM buckling spring keyboard has a personality of its own) more solid yet smoother and lighter, which I attribute to the additional mass resisting the typing pressure and possibly better quality control. As an aside, all of mine were US-made except for the 3 Model Ms that I have had from Greenock (all very-late-1990s 42Hs) which were broken and terrible, but presumably standards were much higher in the early days.

This is also probably related to why people are often under-whelmed with the results of a bolt-mod, after that amount of work and aggravation they probably expect more than a subtle improvement.

Yes, I mean significant. From what I've seen the differences are within the margin of error of production, and hard to substantiate when condition is taken into account. Especially considering there is no obvious production change in the switches, in fact there doesn't seem to be any at all. More resistivity really shouldn't factor in here, it's not like a "thin" half-kilo plate isn't able to resist a tiny spring properly .

There is definitely difference in sound between old and new models though, but this is easily explained as f=v/lambda .

[fohat.digs]

More resistivity really shouldn't factor in here, it's not like a "thin" half-kilo plate isn't able to resist a tiny spring properly.

I was not talking about the spring itself. I am such an old man that I learned to type on a manual typewriter in typing class in the 1960s.

That technique is to hold your hands above the keyboard and strike the key with a downward thrust if the finger, usually involving a downward snap of the wrist to increase the power at the conclusion of the motion with centrifugal force. I used to picture it like a heron spearing frogs and minnows with its neck and beak.

Today, I am a touch typist who can type very lightly if I want, but if I am in a "mood" or whatever I can still dissipate my frustration with the stabbing.

The beauty of a 3.75 kg behemoth like this modded, padded F-122 on a dense rubber mat is that it makes absolutely no difference to the keyboard how I strike it.

[snarfarlarkus]

Just my 2 cents but I purchased a NOS brand in box Model M 1390131 but the seller(1avidcollector or something along those lines) had bolt modded it and sold it to me for $429 + shipping. Out of curiosity I then bought a used 1390141 and they felt identical. If I were blind folded I would not be able to tell the difference the only way was to feel for the IBM label but no difference in keyswitch feel. I loved the thing but as soon as I tried the Model F. It was a night and day difference, almost like going from an electric keyboard to a grand piano. The F is just so much more sublime and less 'mushy and stuck-in-the-mud-like'.

Do yourself a favour and skip the M, go straight to the F.

[fohat.digs]

The F is just so much more sublime and less 'mushy and stuck-in-the-mud-like'.

Do yourself a favour and skip the M, go straight to the F.

1avidcollector is a dedicated keyboard lover who does good work. That 1390131 will far outlast the 1391401.

I have always said that the Model F feels "alive" while the Model M feels "dead" and I attribute it to, also using a piano analogy, the multiple layers of steel in a matrix of compression and tension ringing like the sounding board of a piano, while the mostly-plastic Model M never has a chance to come alive in the same way.

A corollary to this is that a floss-mod on an F is a great way to quiet down the piercing overtones without losing its essence (all but 1 of mine have it), while the floss-mod on an M is only marginally helpful because it has few overtones anyway.

[E TwentyNine]

I have to wonder if someone made a metal barrel overlay for an M (like on those honeywell spacesavers) if it would tighten up the feel significantly.

To compare to motorcycles, I consider the F a sportbike and the M a cruiser.  Some days I prefer one, some the other.

[fohat.digs]

I think that tinkering hardly ever changes the intrinsic nature of things.

The Model F is a massive steel construction with successive layers tuned to a fine composition.

A Model M is completely different at every level of its design and construction with nothing in common except for the keys.