Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 155185 times)

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Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1300 on: Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:24:01 »
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?

cost

If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.

Online Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1301 on: Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:29:52 »

If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.

Online InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1302 on: Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:35:51 »
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?

cost

If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
That's very interesting, but seems to have little to do with the composition of a spring.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1303 on: Thu, 26 October 2017, 16:57:27 »

If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.

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Offline Glod

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1304 on: Fri, 27 October 2017, 12:42:36 »
This is going to sound pretty grim and may insult but I do have a question

Ellipse do you have anyone backing you up on the project management and distribution of the product if something were to happen to you. I know this usually does not get asked on other group buys but this is literally the biggest and complex community centered project I have ever seen on geekhack over 5 years being on here. You have have become a god.
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Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1305 on: Fri, 27 October 2017, 16:40:17 »
This is going to sound pretty grim and may insult but I do have a question

Ellipse do you have anyone backing you up on the project management and distribution of the product if something were to happen to you. I know this usually does not get asked on other group buys but this is literally the biggest and complex community centered project I have ever seen on geekhack over 5 years being on here. You have have become a god.

Thats actually not a bad point.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1306 on: Sat, 28 October 2017, 11:35:08 »
It's just me on the project. 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1307 on: Sun, 29 October 2017, 09:58:12 »
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project!  Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!

Offline digi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1308 on: Sun, 29 October 2017, 10:21:00 »
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project!  Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!

New ETA = 2048! lol

Offline Ouster

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1309 on: Sun, 29 October 2017, 12:11:25 »
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project!  Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!
You have to give yourself most of the credit there. I wasn't even aware of the Model F being better than the touted Model M. I think your standards of quality and sticking as closely to the original as possible made it so successful. It's definitely why I purchased one. The look of the boards with the retro case and keycaps was a big draw, then learning about how well built they will be compared to anything made today made the purchase an easy one.

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Offline SuperBo

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1310 on: Sun, 29 October 2017, 23:44:46 »
Ordered an F62 ;D.
Thank Ellipse for the best GB so far.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 October 2017, 23:47:03 by SuperBo »

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1311 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:01:00 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
   

Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1312 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 11:47:51 »
Ordered an F62 ;D.
Thank Ellipse for the best GB so far.

Just curious, what makes you think in this way?

Online InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1313 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 12:21:40 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
They have to be made and shipped, of course.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring.

Online PancakeMSTR

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1314 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 12:37:45 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
They have to be made and shipped, of course.


You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
   

Online InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1315 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 13:37:28 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
They have to be made and shipped, of course.


You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I would assume he actually has manufacturers for all the parts. Remember, still working on springs and testing pcb material.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring.

Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1316 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 14:16:07 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
They have to be made and shipped, of course.


You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.

I guess all the orders before he ships out any orders are all "early bird" round. So I assume he will keep postponing the deadline for "early bird" round util all the parts meet his standards, if they ever will.

Offline Fluffypupper22

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1317 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 14:22:42 »
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?
They have to be made and shipped, of course.


You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.

I guess all the orders before he ships out any orders are all "early bird" round. So I assume he will keep postponing the deadline for "early bird" round util all the parts meet his standards, if they ever will.

I was hoping we would receive these keyboards by Christmas, but It doesn't look like that's going to happen=(


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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1318 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 16:50:30 »
We are still looking at shipping in Q1 2018 - again my apologies for the factory production delays.  Even with a $400,000 manufacturing project we are not the highest priority project with the factory which focuses on much larger orders.  I am happy they accepted the project and have spent a couple years of back and forth to perfect the parts - they have been a great partner except for the delays over the past year.

Yes we are still in the early bird round for all orders.  If all goes well with the factory timeline we can move to the regular round of orders next month! 

Fluffypupper these keyboards will be well worth the wait!  Early on I decided that quality is the most important aspect of this project, above meeting any self-imposed timeline.  I will not ship poor quality goods to save a few months, especially with all the funds everyone has put in already for their keyboards.  I want the factory to make quality products matching original specs and that should last for decades of use.

Offline Ramiel

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1319 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 16:58:38 »
We are still looking at shipping in Q1 2018 - again my apologies for the factory production delays.  Even with a $400,000 manufacturing project we are not the highest priority project with the factory which focuses on much larger orders.  I am happy they accepted the project and have spent a couple years of back and forth to perfect the parts - they have been a great partner except for the delays over the past year.

Yes we are still in the early bird round for all orders.  If all goes well with the factory timeline we can move to the regular round of orders next month! 

Fluffypupper these keyboards will be well worth the wait!  Early on I decided that quality is the most important aspect of this project, above meeting any self-imposed timeline.  I will not ship poor quality goods to save a few months, especially with all the funds everyone has put in already for their keyboards.  I want the factory to make quality products matching original specs and that should last for decades of use.

What makes me anxious is that you always have new estimations for the shipping date. Now you're saying Q1 2018, but I guess there'll be new estimates later. I don't even know how many years I'll need to wait.

Offline Jampu

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1320 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:37:01 »
Ellipse, one quick (odd) question:  As these are reproductions of the originals, will they have the extra barrel under the left side of the spacebar like all other IBM keyboards?  I know there will be no pads for it, just curious.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1321 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:52:38 »
Yes there is an extra pad and barrel to split each of the left/right shifts into two keys.  This is for both the regular and split right shift PCBs.

Online Atredl

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1322 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 18:54:40 »
Yes there is an extra pad and barrel to split each of the left/right shifts into two keys.  This is for both the regular and split right shift PCBs.
He’s asking about a barrel next to the space bar, not split shift.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1323 on: Thu, 02 November 2017, 19:01:02 »
Whoops - yes confirmed there is a barrel with no pad as part of the space bar.

Offline Jampu

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1324 on: Fri, 03 November 2017, 05:44:12 »
Whoops - yes confirmed there is a barrel with no pad as part of the space bar.

Awesome, thanks!

Offline dante

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1325 on: Fri, 03 November 2017, 07:41:22 »
Ellipse, since you are getting close to the end of this I'm curious, knowing what you know now how much more would this keyboard have cost if it was 100% Made in the US?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1326 on: Mon, 06 November 2017, 16:38:09 »
At least double.  Even IBM offshored some Model F components to Asia, like the PCB.

Offline tameone

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1327 on: Mon, 06 November 2017, 16:55:45 »
Ellipse, I sent you a message about an order change.  Did you see it?  Should I email instead?   Thanks
           

Offline supamesican

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1328 on: Tue, 07 November 2017, 10:30:18 »
At least double.  Even IBM offshored some Model F components to Asia, like the PCB.

Lexmark and unicomp continued this somewhat iirc with their model ms.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1329 on: Wed, 08 November 2017, 16:30:42 »
The springs are moving back to China.  I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week. 

They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory. 

The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track.  This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!

Offline Lagomorph

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1330 on: Thu, 09 November 2017, 06:55:10 »
The springs are moving back to China.  I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week. 

They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory. 

The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track.  This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!

Thanks for the update Ellipse. I hope the samples from the Chinese factory meet your standards.

If nothing else, this project has provided enough experience for you to transition to a manufacturing production manager job, if you ever wanted that (after all of the difficulties experienced so far, I doubt you would).  :D



Offline supamesican

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1331 on: Thu, 09 November 2017, 07:54:29 »
Awesome, long as they're good I dont care where they're from. especially if it gets done faster

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1332 on: Thu, 09 November 2017, 17:36:29 »
The spring samples have been ordered!  I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences.  The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.

Offline supamesican

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1333 on: Thu, 09 November 2017, 19:06:01 »
The spring samples have been ordered!  I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences.  The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.
HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPE

Offline krispy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1334 on: Fri, 10 November 2017, 08:29:21 »
The spring samples have been ordered!  I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences.  The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.

Hi Ellipse, I joined the GB a few months ago and mostly just lurk around here but I just wanted to say that your dedication to this project is inspiring and thank you for the detailed, constant updates. You are awesome! I'll go back to lurking now haha.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1335 on: Thu, 16 November 2017, 18:46:18 »
mini update + dark gray keys now available to order!

Per the factory the key molds are expected to finish the first week of January.  This is the same subcontractor that did a good job with the barrels and flippers (all to spec).

The spring samples should arrive next week.  These are made with a new factory that had the exact original standard material that IBM used for their springs (I had them analyzed at a lab).  To speed up assembly, the factory expects to build a bulk spring attacher (their prototype could attach one spring and flipper at a time). 

Dark gray printed and unprinted sets are now up for order!  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-set-of-brand-new-production-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/

Total cost is $5 less than the $10 expected premium.  These will be a limited early bird color to minimize extra setup charges for the final production run next year.  You can pick free/other shipping if you want to add keys to your current order.

To keep the project on track and avoid extra assembly variations, these are extra sets only - they can't be your only set or installed set if ordering a keyboard.

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #1336 on: Thu, 16 November 2017, 21:57:20 »
This is probably a dumb question for you, Ellipse, given how obsessive over detail you've been so far, but your pebble/pearl keysets will exactly color match the original IBM versions, not the current Unicomp versions, correct?