Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 418198 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2300 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 17:57:32 »
Also it was noted that the Fn key has to have Fn1 selected in the drop down menu on both the Base Layer and Layer 1 of the xwhatsit GUI.  If it is not selected in Layer 1 as well, you may get the issue you describe.

Offline raymogi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2301 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:39:26 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Please feed my addiction.

Offline tron

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2302 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:56:27 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Exact same thing can happen with beamspring keyboards using xwhatsit. I've had to quickly plug the board in, launch the GUI and hit emergency hault before the explosion of keypresses/windows hit ;D


« Last Edit: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:58:00 by tron »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2303 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:09:55 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.

Offline raymogi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2304 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:41:15 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.

lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
Please feed my addiction.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2305 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:53:09 »
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)

I bet, I'm jealous.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2306 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 21:29:07 »
Glad it's up and running raymogi!

For most F62's I recommend debounce 6 firmware, threshold set to manual and a value between 122-126.  Anything lower is unnecessary for F62/F77 and will cause issues (lower threshold is required for some IBM F107's and maybe F122's if I recall correctly).  If you go too low and did not click store to eeprom, need to restart your computer and it should go back to your last stored value.  If you go too low and saved to eeprom, need to start your computer with keyboard unplugged, short PROG on the xwhatsit controller and keeping it shorted (can use a screwdriver or paper clip to short the two pads of prog), then connect it to USB, wait 1-2 seconds MAXIMUM, then remove the shorting of prog.  will cause error device descriptor failed if you hold it shorted too long. 

If you hold down a key and the gray square flickers in xwhatsit, need to change the threshold higher or lower (always click store to EEPROM after changing the threshold).  If no combination between 120-126 works reliably without flicker, may need to flash debounce 11 firmware with other settings the same.  Be sure to set the column skips 9-15 for F62 and 11-15 for F77 and click store to EEPROM before anything else.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 January 2020, 21:32:45 by Ellipse »

Offline atlas3686

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2307 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 03:23:25 »

lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)

Awesome, glad you got it sorted. Can't wait for mine to arrive! Also pics...
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 January 2020, 03:25:11 by atlas3686 »

Offline BlissOnTap

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2308 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 15:24:13 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2309 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 16:07:41 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

^ I already have one ordered ... but no sane person can live with merely one zinc chassis model F.

Offline euphxenos

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2310 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 17:10:23 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years.  Every month that date moves out by one month.

Offline esquilax

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2311 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:41:45 »
Hi Ellipse, I could use a little help!

My keyboard arrived safely the other day. The only apparent problem was that the spacebar wasn't seated. I reseated it (potentially incorrectly, as I'm used to Model Ms) and it didn't seem to work, although every other key did. I then decided to disassemble my keyboard because I am an absolute fool.

When the plates are apart, I can verify that the contacts and flippers and controller all work correctly. However, when I reassemble and test, I consistently get 8~; spammed over and over. I've disassembled and reassembled the plates twice with the same result. I've watched your video a few times to try to get it right, but apparently the type of foolishness that caused me to disassemble it symmetrically causes me to be bad at reassembling it, which makes sense.

I tried running the linux xwhatsit gui with the keyboard plugged in, and my machine promptly rebooted.

I'm wondering 2 things:

1. Is there a key combo that would generally cause 8~; to be printed? That might give me a clue as to where to look to fix my plate mounting job.

2. Should I work harder on getting the more strenuous debounce firmware installed? I should be able to try other platforms, and could always disassemble it again so the flippers aren't causing anything to spam.


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2312 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:46:57 »
Try removing the 8 key and holding the keyboard vertically, space bar row on top as shown in the keyboard instructional video 1 on my blog (1-2 posts ago).  Does the xwhatsit gui indicate the key is pressed?

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2313 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 23:48:39 »
Finally pulled it out and had a play. Getting a few issue with swiggity swaggity keystrokes but I will work through it when I get some time.

Also silly old'e me totally forgot about stabs and I have none left. Now regretting getting rid of all my excess Model M/F stuff now.

Also think I will need to get a set of number keys with the F key printed.

234929-0

Offline jorgenslee

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2314 on: Wed, 05 February 2020, 06:34:27 »
Got it today and pretty excited as I've been chasing the delivery guy whole day(asleep when they were delivering it). This thing is freaking heavy, adrenaline is all over me until I opened the keyboard and got the wrong layout. I ordered an hhkb layout(split backspace, split right shift). Hopefully Ellipse could address this issue as I'm halfway across the world.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2315 on: Thu, 06 February 2020, 20:16:52 »
New blog post:

I just finished the third Model F instructional video:  how to fix buzzing springs and non-working keys on your Model F keyboard.  Check out the other videos in my channel for additional instructional videos on the Brand New Model F keyboards.  As a note, this is the QC process I go through for each new Model F keyboard - it is one reason it takes more time than expected for each one to go out. The factory also goes through this QC process before me on each keyboard and I have asked them to improve on this for the final round.

Everyone's keyboard ships only after I test each key and fix the needed springs.

Also a high quality sound comparison of the New Model F Keyboard vs. two original IBM Model F PC XT Keyboards and a Model F 122-key keyboard.

Over 100 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far!  Once I can start mass sublimation I am hoping to pick up the pace significantly.  As I asked in my prior blog post I am open to having volunteers help get these keyboards out on a Saturday so far Ive gotten some interest but the more the better!  Please let me know if youd like to help in a couple months from now.

As an update I am working on what should be the final fixes to the dye sublimation setup.  Progress has been disappointingly slow on this but I think this is the final aspect of the setup that I was missing (I thought of doing it another way but the results were inconsistent).


Sound comparison clip from above video:

(as discussed directly with jorgenslee I'll be correcting this layout mistake ASAP)
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 February 2020, 00:19:32 by Ellipse »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2316 on: Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:27:13 »
If we already have an F on order, ordering an additional one wouldn't hold them both up for the same shipment, would it?

Could we possibly order unfinished zinc cases separately?

Could we maybe get more detailed information on the process of prioritization and/or the current status of what's shipped and what's on deck? I assume it is something like this:

Unprinted/no caps > serial number > order number

Thanks for the videos. While I haven't watched all of them yet, I can imagine your channel turning into a Model F restoration/maintenance archive, in perpetuity.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2317 on: Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:34:28 »
1.  Correct - it would not hold it up.

2.  The cases are all finished but you can strip the paint if needed.  If possible please order black as I believe I ordered additional extras of black.

3.  Yes correct - though many unprinted keyboards are in the second shipment of the early bird round, arriving in a couple months.

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2318 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 03:51:38 »
anyone got a walk through on missing key stroke issues... my spacebar has gone awol xD
 
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2319 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 08:41:01 »
Yes I posted a guide on one of the recent blog posts.  Essentially you first take off the space bar and install a 1U key in its place to see if the xwhatsit matrix registers a key press.  If it does, then you have to carefully reseat the space bar with the method in the video I posted recently.  If not you may need to replace the spring (also later in that same QC video).

Offline iamacicada

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2320 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:00:58 »
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2321 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:52:14 »
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?

Read the following posts:

Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.

I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.

(Attachment Link)

Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues.  Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.

The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold. 

Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.

First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link).  In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.

Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77.  Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason).  Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77.  Click store to EEPROM. 

Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/

Offline snevok

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2322 on: Mon, 17 February 2020, 19:24:16 »


Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since.  Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows.  Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2323 on: Tue, 18 February 2020, 08:19:33 »
Show Image


Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since.  Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows.  Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys.

Beautiful picture. I really need to stop looking at this thread until mine finally ships, but I know that I can't.

Offline skwrn

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2324 on: Tue, 18 February 2020, 15:08:24 »


That looks good af. I wish I could find some good quality keyboards to harvest from in central Europe.
The ones that are here, are being sold with ISO keymaps, which to me is unexceptable. That's why I ordered my F62 with printed keycaps, which I expect to be the highest quality.

I am curious, how is the research on manufacturing the best acceptable dye sublimation going on?
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 February 2020, 15:14:17 by skwrn »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2325 on: Thu, 20 February 2020, 13:40:15 »
Nice photo and keycap set snevok!  Looks great on the Model F F62. 

One of the first video reviews has been posted on YouTube - here's the link.

For this reviewer, Joc's updated firmware with the alternative debounce threshold 11 was optimal while debounce 6 had some issues with pressed keys.  The F62 was connected to a 2016 Dell laptop for this test.  I don't know the reason for the need to use threshold 6 vs. 11 but my guess is that the capacitive sensing is more sensitive to minute differences in voltage output or USB power management and that affects a small, but significant, percentage of xwhatsit controller users based on the connected equipment.  If anyone has more details on this please do share!