Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 437426 times)

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2350 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:18:23 »
Interesting, to be sure. That shouldn't effect weighting though, should it? I'll pry an original cap off of an F maybe tonight and play with it. I was already tempted to do so. You may have just sold another set of the new production caps. These are all still manufactured by Unicomp though, aren't they? Is it to a modified specification?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2351 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:30:01 »
The keys for this project are from my brand new molds.  The new keys are all one piece, like many Model F keys, while most Model M keys are two piece.

The smoothness of new barrels contributes to a smoother and lighter feeling while typing.  I have found that swabbing 99% rubbing alcohol with a Q tip around the barrels of an original Model F improves their perceived lightness and smoothness as well.  Also the age of the original springs definitely changes their feel, weighting, and sound.  In a few decades the new Model F springs will certainly be different in those three aspects.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2352 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 11:42:21 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything. It isn't a major thing regardless. Recreating flippers and barrels exactly is one thing, a spring is something else. I imagine the exact specs were not available, and I also imagine that even just using a slightly different alloy of steel would result in a different weight with everything else made exactly to original specifications.

I suppose I shouldn't have bothered to order the unprinted red modifier keys from Unicomp in anticipation of my black F77. Oh well, they'll find a home on some Model M at some point. Are there any particular new production caps that can ship now if I ordered some? Unprinted works for me, maybe the original pebble and pearl scheme, or a set of SSK blue?

Offline Twsts

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2353 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 12:07:37 »
Defently interesting looking at characteristics of the different buckling spring caps.
On my AT for example, the Unicomp one piece caps actuate near the very top, giving the keyboard a little stiffer feel. While the original Model F caps feels somewhat smoother and actuate near the bottom. The two piece model M keycaps feels somewhat inbetween.
My XT has a keyfeel that is even crispier, but I haven't tried the different caps on it.

Will be sure to give it a comparison when my new model Fs arrives.  :)

Offline consolation

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2354 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 07:17:39 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...

Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2355 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 08:09:34 »
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...

Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.

That makes sense, but don't springs also loose their elasticity as they're used? I know in handguns you'll usually start seeing frames and slides start beating each other up because the recoil spring gets to a point where it is no longer sufficiently powerful to dampen recoil.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2356 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 09:26:53 »
Dark gray unprinted extra sets can ship now.  Will get more stock on the other key sets in the coming months.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2357 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 14:52:12 »
Dye sub testing update:

I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.

Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)

238103-0

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2358 on: Thu, 19 March 2020, 17:16:01 »
Dye sub testing update:

I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.

Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)

Looking great. It obviously takes a real passion, perhaps obsession, for these old boards to accomplish everything that you have done. Congratulations.

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2359 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 15:25:45 »
Though a bit unfortunate that my box arrived damaged, though without harm otherwise (expand More below - Ellipse, if you see this, it may be notable for future shipments!), at long last my F62 is here :thumb:

Thank you to Ellipse for the hard work in recreating this beauty.


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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2360 on: Wed, 25 March 2020, 22:10:16 »
Thanks for posting your Kishsaver setup LightningXI.  My apologies the box was damaged in shipping!  If you (or anyone else) needs another box please let me know and I can send it with the next shipment (please PM or email me and we can arrange it).

As an update, over on DT thanks to DT user pandrew, an xwhatsit Model F firmware update has been released for a bug pointed out by webwit regarding the behavior of the function layers.  I'd like to encourage everyone to "beta test" the firmware on their new/old Model F keyboards and share their findings so it can be the default for all future Model F's that go out.

Also over on DT, consolation posted some interesting technical findings with the new F77. 

If anyone has any Model F tips and tricks please do share them!

My notes regarding the xwhatsit software:
For my setup (tested on a Lenovo laptop from several years ago), the F77 wouldn't activate all keys unless the threshold was a maximum of 122 or so, but this definitely varies by USB port and computer I am sure. 

Those always pressed points on the matrix are built in to the keyboard capacitive PCB.  IBM had them built into original Model F keyboards as well.  My guess is they were used for calibration of the key press threshold.  The xwhatsit software says these always-pressed keys should be noted as "pressed" in the layout file which is what I did in the layout files for each keyboard that has gone out.  That is interesting that you had to set them to ignored to prevent random key presses.  Can anyone else confirm this behavior with their Model F keyboard (new or old)?  Agreed that waiting for the keyboard to go to room temperature is sometimes needed before starting to use the keyboard.

https://imgur.com/0IR9Uao
https://imgur.com/rHYQq1e

As a note here is the link to the previously posted photo album of all mailed keyboard variations that is updated whenever there is a new variation.  https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Offline h

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2361 on: Fri, 27 March 2020, 15:00:03 »
I'm unable to find any communities to post this to but here, but I was wondering if there was a way to emulate some QMK functions:

LAlt_T (Left alt when Held, KC when Tapped)
LT (KC on tap, switch to layer when held)

Thanks in advance,

h

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2362 on: Sat, 28 March 2020, 10:57:20 »
h, I believe that there is some beta testing of QMK or TMK over on DT - feel free to post your interest there and they might send you the beta firmware file if you are interested.  Of course fair warning that you can possibly brick your hardware by flashing beta firmware (I've never had that issue though).