Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 157095 times)

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Offline joey

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I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.

Offline Ellipse

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ok let me discuss options with the factory to get these faster - maybe they can make me an offer - I will be shipping out mostly in the order they were received so those who ordered earliest will get theirs tested and shipped first

bocah - shipping 2 keyboards together to Indonesia would be $120 total ($60 each)

Yes you can still order an air mail upgrade.  The deadline for the air mail upgrade won't be for at least a month from now - just order 75 units of "other customizations in $1 increments" on modelfkeyboards.com and choose free local pickup, and make a note in the order that it is for upgraded shipping by air mail.  Please note that this is an upgrade just from China to me by air mail, not any change from the shipping from me to you.

Offline Elrick

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I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.


I know it's tough trusting someone here with your hard earned cash since I myself lost lots, from people I had personally trusted here on GH Central.


All I can say is that I've bought from Ellipse before when he restored IBM keyboards from scratch and they returned in nearly new condition, he did a wonderful job on all of them without making any mistakes.


Not that my word means anything here on GH but at least give him some trust because without that, you can forget about ever owning a nice keyboard.  There are rip-off merchants everywhere so beware but also consider if you can't afford to lose your dough on a keyboard, then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.


Always buy what you can afford to lose and that's my word for today........

Offline henz

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I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.


I know it's tough trusting someone here with your hard earned cash since I myself lost lots, from people I had personally trusted here on GH Central.


All I can say is that I've bought from Ellipse before when he restored IBM keyboards from scratch and they returned in nearly new condition, he did a wonderful job on all of them without making any mistakes.


Not that my word means anything here on GH but at least give him some trust because without that, you can forget about ever owning a nice keyboard.  There are rip-off merchants everywhere so beware but also consider if you can't afford to lose your dough on a keyboard, then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.


Always buy what you can afford to lose and that's my word for today........

So one should expect to loose their money? That is what i got out of this^^  the keyboard will have reselling value. I myself bought this to test it, if i dont like it i will definitely sell it.



Side note: Do we know which number we got? We early birds.

Offline Elrick

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So one should expect to loose their money? That is what i got out of this^^


In every single Group Buy, YES that will always be the possibility no matter the promises or statements made.


If you want 100% delivery within the famed "180 day Paypal agreement limit" then ONLY buy from the Classifieds section of this website.  Don't waste your time in Group Buys if you are too afraid of losing your money.
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 May 2016, 03:59:24 by Elrick »

Online ika

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Is there no way to do some kind of paypal refund/repayment in order to extend the 180-day window? I would not be opposed to that. I do like the keyboard but I want to be safe with my money, as it is a considerably amount.

Offline Elrick

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Is there no way to do some kind of paypal refund/repayment in order to extend the 180-day window? I would not be opposed to that. I do like the keyboard but I want to be safe with my money, as it is a considerably amount.


You can't EXTEND anything unless paypal says so and thus far, 180 days is their final limit.  Before that time period, they had their standard 45 day limit for years, in fact for a decade or more.

Be glad they upped it to 180 days now instead of relying upon their previous limit.  No doubt if you have extreme worry issues with this purchase, then simply wait for one to turn up in the Classifieds section of Geekhack and if it's a bidding war, then prepare for battle when it presents itself.

Nothing in life is guaranteed so go with what you can afford to lose, otherwise best stay away from Geekhack altogether, - friendly advice here.
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 May 2016, 04:56:49 by Elrick »

Offline jjnist

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So tempted to join this drop. Wish the case a little smaller on the f62 but buckling springs sound so good

Offline Ellipse

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jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)

henz I've only assigned serials so far to those who reserved one.  You can still place an order and reserve a serial for the early bird round (if it's not already reserved), at least through the end of May.

ika if we are getting too close to the 6 month deadline for some people I think you have a good idea.  The only thing is that you'd need to place the new order first by credit or debit card (or mail a check!) and then I'd refund your paypal order.  My paypal was frozen and I no longer accept payment through that method.

Offline joey

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Sending via those other methods don't really offer the same protection as PayPal. (A credit card might? I don't have one so don't know)

Online ika

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jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)

henz I've only assigned serials so far to those who reserved one.  You can still place an order and reserve a serial for the early bird round (if it's not already reserved), at least through the end of May.

ika if we are getting too close to the 6 month deadline for some people I think you have a good idea.  The only thing is that you'd need to place the new order first by credit or debit card (or mail a check!) and then I'd refund your paypal order.  My paypal was frozen and I no longer accept payment through that method.

Ah, I thought you had worked out getting a business/merchant account with Paypal. My mistake. Like Joey said I'm not sure if credit cards will have the same protection, but it is a panic button option, as credit card companies do have the power to run chargebacks, for better or for worse?

Offline riotonthebay

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[GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #261 on: Mon, 02 May 2016, 23:38:44 »
Credit cards offer you the same or better protection than PayPal. PayPal is a truly monstrous historical artifact primarily relied upon due to buyer superstition and convention.

Offline hashbaz

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I will be shipping out mostly in the order they were received so those who ordered earliest will get theirs tested and shipped first

Tooling funders are prioritized in this order, yes?

Also it's not clear to me what the status of the one-piece keys are. Is that for sure happening, are we waiting on something, etc?

Offline jjnist

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jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)

Just take my money why don't you....

Offline Elrick

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PayPal is a truly monstrous historical artifact primarily relied upon due to buyer superstition and convention.


Do doubt but don't get all holy about the major Credit Card Companies sunshine because they're another form of ignorance and torture when it comes to Group Buys.

Offline Ellipse

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hashbaz yes the early tooling volunteers made this round possible so they are getting prioritized.  The very first people to get them will be those who paid the $75 per keyboard for air mail.  Currently 4 keyboards so far. 

The factory is still coming up with a quote for the one-piece keys but they need more time.  I am hoping that these costs can be reasonable because it would be even more costly to order $8-9k in Unicomp keys for the early bird orders and then try to see if it's economically possible to order one-piece key molds for the final round. 

Offline Ellipse

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I am thinking of making the ultra compact keyboard available before the prototype is ordered (currently I have the renderings that I posted on reddit) so that people can get their keyboard earlier - any thoughts?

Offline kekstee

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I don't really care about the earliest date but rather about the closing date. At this price point I can only consider to invest more after I hold a keyboard in my hands. Which is only after shipping + another month for customs processing.
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 May 2016, 09:28:08 by kekstee »

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HHKB Pro2 BN (silenced); Hammer GH60 (52g silent Red); TX-CP (52g vintage Black); IBM SSK 1392980; IBM 5291 'Bigfoot';
HHKB Pro2 W; NerD60 (ErgoClear); DZ60 (57g vintage Black); Alps64 (SKCM Orange); Realforce 87USW; Filco Majestouch-2 (MX-Brown); IBM Model M 1391403; G80-1000HFD; G80-1000HAD

Offline Ellipse

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Yes kekstee I expect to delay the final round deadline to give everyone enough time for the early bird round orders to arrive.

Offline Ellipse

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The factory sent me photos of the production barrels and flippers!  Currently they are going into storage until the factory gets the other parts of the inner assembly made.

I thought it was a nice touch to label each box professionally with the barrel and flipper image (I guess that's the best way to keep track of small production runs like this one) - I'm hoping they send me the empty boxes (maybe fill it with some finished keyboards or other accessories of course) :)

136693-0
136695-1
136697-2
136699-3
136701-4
136703-5

Offline joey

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Looking good :thumb:

Question: are you planning on making a 1.75u non-stepped right shift? If so, is it too late to change the layout of my order?

Offline Ellipse

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yes joey.  The factory is still working on the quotation for the keys.

Offline jjnist

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Love progress pics. Keep it up

Offline Ellipse

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Yes the factory is great to send these production photos over.  They have been so patient with me throughout the process.  I don't think it's a normal request they usually receive!

Offline joey

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Is it too late to change the layout of my order? (I wasn't sure what your "yes joey" was in your previous post).

Offline Ellipse

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sorry joey the yes was in reply to your question:  Question: are you planning on making a 1.75u non-stepped right shift? If so, is it too late to change the layout of my order?

And sure you can change the layout - please PM me what you want to change. 

Offline Ellipse

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You can now order the ultra compact case F62 or F77!  To avoid duplicate posts please see my IC thread and keep discussion on the small cases over there.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73363.msg2171355#msg2171355

Offline Ellipse

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And there will be time before the end of the final round to see a small case prototype keyboard of both F62 and F77 before ordering the ultra compact case versions, if you'd prefer to wait.

Offline Elrick

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And there will be time before the end of the final round to see a small case prototype keyboard of both F62 and F77 before ordering the ultra compact case versions, if you'd prefer to wait.


Good to know because I would first want to receive my first purchase of your keyboard and use it to see whether or not to buy another version with this 'newer', compact shape.

Offline Ellipse

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And there will be time before the end of the final round to see a small case prototype keyboard of both F62 and F77 before ordering the ultra compact case versions, if you'd prefer to wait.

I needed to extend the final round deadline because I definitely underestimated the time it takes for production in China - primarily because of all of the pre-production work on both my side and that the factory has to do.  I am still waiting on the quote for the keys (they are a few weeks late) and I could still use some help from any PCB designers out there who could take a look at the ultra compact xwhatsit controller - it is not working 100% reliably just yet - I posted a link to the discussion thread on the IC (please keep PCB discussion over there to avoid duplication). 

Offline Ellipse

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An update on the case molds - unfortunately production of the case molds was delayed and is expected to start this week.  It was supposed to start a few weeks ago.  I am now expecting the keyboards to ship from China in July.  The factory stated that the molds would have been done earlier this month.

Offline Elrick

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It was supposed to start a few weeks ago.  I am now expecting the keyboards to ship from China in July.  The factory stated that the molds would have been done earlier this month.


Good to know that the Chinese look to have absorbed some good old Australian Style of work schedules, because we're famous for trying to get something done yesterday but it actually gets finished far into the future way past any deadlines.


Maybe that's why nothing is made here in my country anymore because of our type of behaviour and maybe that's fair, for any manufacturers to look elsewhere to get something done.

Offline Ellipse

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Yep - I was too confident in their time estimates, but now I understand better that delays happen often during pre-production and production.

Offline Ellipse

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Still looking for some help on getting the compact xwhatsit up and running for this project - any help would be appreciated!

Offline Ellipse

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While I wait on the factory to get back to me (I've been going back and forth over details), I thought I'd post my responses to some of the interview questions from the Vice Motherboard article on mechanical keyboards and gaming.  Sorry it's a tl:dr for most!  The article was not about this project but the project was mentioned:  http://motherboard.vice.com/read/mechanical-keyboards-esports-logitech-steelseries

Please share your own thoughts on these questions too - I'd be interested in seeing other perspectives:

Regarding why I think mechanical keyboards are becoming increasingly popular, I think there are a number of factors.  One is definitely the expansion of the number of computer and gaming enthusiasts and the gaming and mechanical keyboard communities that have flourished in recent years (including reddit.com/MechanicalKeyboards, Geekhack, and Deskthority).  Another related factor is the massive growth of interest in technology in general, and not just by a subset of the population.  Many years ago it was not as common in my experience to be knowledgeable with using computers and smart phones and they were not as much an essential part of most people's lives, but nowadays almost everyone has a smart phone and/or tablet with them at all times and uses their devices constantly throughout every single day, and even young kids are better than their parents at the computer and are online and/or gaming daily.  With this acceptance of technology into the mainstream of our culture I think it has opened the door for millions of people to want and to seek out the best of what technology has to offer in a given product category:  the newest and best iPhone or Samsung Galaxy, a brand new flat screen large-format, high definition television, the best tablet, a state of the art (possibly custom-built) computer, a car with advanced computer integrations and safety features, a high-end home stereo/surround sound/sound bar setup, etc.  Many of the mass-produced keyboards with Cherry MX switches have centered their branding and marketing on being "gaming keyboards" but I feel that mechanical keyboards serve a significantly wider market as well and are even more important for the comfort and productivity of those who use computers every day, especially those who do a lot of typing.  I've spoken with many writers and programmers who love the Model F and other mechanical keyboards because their keyboard is one of the most important things they use every day and are willing to pay more for the best (many spend more hours typing on their keyboard than sleeping in their beds I'm sure!).  Many consider the buckling spring the best switch for typing.  This is one reason mechanical keyboards in general are gaining in popularity, but unfortunately, availability has been a real problem for new buckling spring keyboards.  Keyboards with those other switches are often your only choice if you are looking for a 60% compact or tenkeyless board, since there those form factors with buckling spring switches either don't exist or are rare and can only be acquired second-hand.

The process and history of the project:  I have been a collector of IBM buckling spring keyboards for years and was able to acquire a number of Model F keyboards through my network of IT recycler contacts, but no 62-key "Kishsaver" Model F keyboards.  (A note on the naming conventions of this project:  While the brand new Model F keyboards from this project can support any number of keys, I chose model names that reflect their original key counts; hence they were named F62 and F77.)  To no avail I spent a while looking for more 62-key F62 Kishsavers and 77-key F77 keyboards.  Given the high interest for Kishsavers and 77-key Model F keyboards and the non-existent supply, as well as my own interest in a Kishsaver, I looked into what it would cost to bring these great keyboards with metal cases back into production, working on the CAD files and discussing ideas with a number of professional engineers, PCB designers, product designers, and many others, some of whom contribute to the DT/GH/reddit forums.  I was also inspired by the significant interest and discussions on the forums regarding bringing back the Model F buckling spring keyboard.  This project is definitely not a one man show - I could not have done this project without the help of so many community members, especially xwhatsit for inventing a reliable capacitive controller replacement for Model F keyboards, as well as many others sharing their thoughts with me on the forums and over PM's and emails.  I have learned a lot along the way about manufacturing, PCBs, materials, micrometer measurement, CAD (computer aided design), and about the specifications of Model F keyboards.  This is a unique project in that it is the first one to bring back Model F buckling spring technology, which has been out of production for essentially 25+ years.  I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds - with no guarantees of success.  Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike Model F components.  I have been working with my China contacts for about a year and a half on a number of projects so it was not difficult for me to work with them on this project.  My past projects included mass production of xwhatsit's PCB's that allowed older IBM keyboards to be USB, have full NKRO, and function on today's computer equipment.


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #285 on: Wed, 01 June 2016, 18:45:35 »
An update from the factory - with CNC photos!

The zinc case molds are currently in their first stage of production - initial CNC milling.  The factory rep kindly took some photos for us - for them it was probably a strange request!

The molds are far from completed and are expected to be ready in about 2-3 weeks from now.

138654-0
138656-1
138658-2
138660-3

Offline romevi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #286 on: Wed, 01 June 2016, 18:55:24 »
Ooh... Pretty...

Offline tommyonsn

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #287 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 07:32:00 »
I love these keyboard! but they are so expensive... :eek:

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #288 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 18:21:08 »
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :).  I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.

Offline Elrick

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #289 on: Fri, 03 June 2016, 21:29:04 »
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) .  I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.

Those buying EXTRAS, will definitely post them on Ebay and watch the addicts go crazy for them  ;) .

Offline 3K

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #290 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 09:43:13 »
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) .  I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.

Those buying EXTRAS, will definitely post them on Ebay and watch the addicts go crazy for them  ;) .

I think this is the case with nearly every product you encounter when spending time on GH. Just look at artisans and keysets ...

Apropos, are the ultra compact cases still avaible after the GB ends? Probably not, right?  ;D

                   Model M '88    | Model M SSK '87 | HHKB P2  | Zowie FK1

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #291 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 11:36:33 »
Sorry 3K, the ultra compact cases are part of the final round of this GB.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #292 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 14:55:55 »
When do orders close for the final round?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #293 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 17:36:11 »
Not sure yet.  Probably a month or two after early bird round orders are delivered.  The case molds were delayed over a month so we are behind schedule.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #294 on: Sun, 05 June 2016, 18:48:39 »
Not sure yet.  Probably a month or two after early bird round orders are delivered.  The case molds were delayed over a month so we are behind schedule.

Just wanted to make sure I had some time. Any chance at a testing meet up?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #295 on: Mon, 06 June 2016, 16:38:43 »
Yep I'm up for a testing meetup in Manhattan.

Offline iamtootallforthis

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #296 on: Mon, 06 June 2016, 19:34:29 »
Yep I'm up for a testing meetup in Manhattan.

Awesome I'd love to try one out.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #297 on: Tue, 07 June 2016, 19:23:27 »
Anyone else up for a meetup in a couple months?

Offline TieuNgu

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #298 on: Tue, 07 June 2016, 21:08:10 »
So Ellipse, is the USB cable for the F62 not detachable?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #299 on: Tue, 07 June 2016, 23:00:36 »
The USB cables are detachable for all keyboards.  For the ultra compact case I expect the USB to be detachable without needing to open the case.

Currently there is an issue with extra voltage on the xwhatsit controller which was recently redesigned for the ultra compact cases to allow the cables to be detachable from the outside.  If anyone who knows electrical engineering/circuit design can help please PM me - I think that the resistor/capacitor values may need to change as the trace lengths are shorter.