Author Topic: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards  (Read 628335 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2300 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 17:57:32 »
Also it was noted that the Fn key has to have Fn1 selected in the drop down menu on both the Base Layer and Layer 1 of the xwhatsit GUI.  If it is not selected in Layer 1 as well, you may get the issue you describe.

Offline raymogi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2301 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:39:26 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Please feed my addiction.

Offline tron

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2302 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:56:27 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Exact same thing can happen with beamspring keyboards using xwhatsit. I've had to quickly plug the board in, launch the GUI and hit emergency hault before the explosion of keypresses/windows hit ;D


« Last Edit: Tue, 28 January 2020, 18:58:00 by tron »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2303 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:09:55 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.

Offline raymogi

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2304 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:41:15 »
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.

But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)

Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.

lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
Please feed my addiction.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2305 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 19:53:09 »
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)

I bet, I'm jealous.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2306 on: Tue, 28 January 2020, 21:29:07 »
Glad it's up and running raymogi!

For most F62's I recommend debounce 6 firmware, threshold set to manual and a value between 122-126.  Anything lower is unnecessary for F62/F77 and will cause issues (lower threshold is required for some IBM F107's and maybe F122's if I recall correctly).  If you go too low and did not click store to eeprom, need to restart your computer and it should go back to your last stored value.  If you go too low and saved to eeprom, need to start your computer with keyboard unplugged, short PROG on the xwhatsit controller and keeping it shorted (can use a screwdriver or paper clip to short the two pads of prog), then connect it to USB, wait 1-2 seconds MAXIMUM, then remove the shorting of prog.  will cause error device descriptor failed if you hold it shorted too long. 

If you hold down a key and the gray square flickers in xwhatsit, need to change the threshold higher or lower (always click store to EEPROM after changing the threshold).  If no combination between 120-126 works reliably without flicker, may need to flash debounce 11 firmware with other settings the same.  Be sure to set the column skips 9-15 for F62 and 11-15 for F77 and click store to EEPROM before anything else.
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 January 2020, 21:32:45 by Ellipse »

Offline atlas3686

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2307 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 03:23:25 »

lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.

Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.

Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)

Awesome, glad you got it sorted. Can't wait for mine to arrive! Also pics...
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 January 2020, 03:25:11 by atlas3686 »

Offline BlissOnTap

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2308 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 15:24:13 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2309 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 16:07:41 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

^ I already have one ordered ... but no sane person can live with merely one zinc chassis model F.

Offline euphxenos

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2310 on: Fri, 31 January 2020, 17:10:23 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years.  Every month that date moves out by one month.

Offline esquilax

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2311 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:41:45 »
Hi Ellipse, I could use a little help!

My keyboard arrived safely the other day. The only apparent problem was that the spacebar wasn't seated. I reseated it (potentially incorrectly, as I'm used to Model Ms) and it didn't seem to work, although every other key did. I then decided to disassemble my keyboard because I am an absolute fool.

When the plates are apart, I can verify that the contacts and flippers and controller all work correctly. However, when I reassemble and test, I consistently get 8~; spammed over and over. I've disassembled and reassembled the plates twice with the same result. I've watched your video a few times to try to get it right, but apparently the type of foolishness that caused me to disassemble it symmetrically causes me to be bad at reassembling it, which makes sense.

I tried running the linux xwhatsit gui with the keyboard plugged in, and my machine promptly rebooted.

I'm wondering 2 things:

1. Is there a key combo that would generally cause 8~; to be printed? That might give me a clue as to where to look to fix my plate mounting job.

2. Should I work harder on getting the more strenuous debounce firmware installed? I should be able to try other platforms, and could always disassemble it again so the flippers aren't causing anything to spam.


Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2312 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 13:46:57 »
Try removing the 8 key and holding the keyboard vertically, space bar row on top as shown in the keyboard instructional video 1 on my blog (1-2 posts ago).  Does the xwhatsit gui indicate the key is pressed?

Offline fanpeople

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2313 on: Sat, 01 February 2020, 23:48:39 »
Finally pulled it out and had a play. Getting a few issue with swiggity swaggity keystrokes but I will work through it when I get some time.

Also silly old'e me totally forgot about stabs and I have none left. Now regretting getting rid of all my excess Model M/F stuff now.

Also think I will need to get a set of number keys with the F key printed.

234929-0

Offline jorgenslee

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2314 on: Wed, 05 February 2020, 06:34:27 »
Got it today and pretty excited as I've been chasing the delivery guy whole day(asleep when they were delivering it). This thing is freaking heavy, adrenaline is all over me until I opened the keyboard and got the wrong layout. I ordered an hhkb layout(split backspace, split right shift). Hopefully Ellipse could address this issue as I'm halfway across the world.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2315 on: Thu, 06 February 2020, 20:16:52 »
New blog post:

I just finished the third Model F instructional video:  how to fix buzzing springs and non-working keys on your Model F keyboard.  Check out the other videos in my channel for additional instructional videos on the Brand New Model F keyboards.  As a note, this is the QC process I go through for each new Model F keyboard - it is one reason it takes more time than expected for each one to go out. The factory also goes through this QC process before me on each keyboard and I have asked them to improve on this for the final round.

Everyone's keyboard ships only after I test each key and fix the needed springs.

Also a high quality sound comparison of the New Model F Keyboard vs. two original IBM Model F PC XT Keyboards and a Model F 122-key keyboard.

Over 100 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far!  Once I can start mass sublimation I am hoping to pick up the pace significantly.  As I asked in my prior blog post I am open to having volunteers help get these keyboards out on a Saturday so far Ive gotten some interest but the more the better!  Please let me know if youd like to help in a couple months from now.

As an update I am working on what should be the final fixes to the dye sublimation setup.  Progress has been disappointingly slow on this but I think this is the final aspect of the setup that I was missing (I thought of doing it another way but the results were inconsistent).


Sound comparison clip from above video:

(as discussed directly with jorgenslee I'll be correcting this layout mistake ASAP)
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 February 2020, 00:19:32 by Ellipse »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2316 on: Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:27:13 »
If we already have an F on order, ordering an additional one wouldn't hold them both up for the same shipment, would it?

Could we possibly order unfinished zinc cases separately?

Could we maybe get more detailed information on the process of prioritization and/or the current status of what's shipped and what's on deck? I assume it is something like this:

Unprinted/no caps > serial number > order number

Thanks for the videos. While I haven't watched all of them yet, I can imagine your channel turning into a Model F restoration/maintenance archive, in perpetuity.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2317 on: Fri, 07 February 2020, 09:34:28 »
1.  Correct - it would not hold it up.

2.  The cases are all finished but you can strip the paint if needed.  If possible please order black as I believe I ordered additional extras of black.

3.  Yes correct - though many unprinted keyboards are in the second shipment of the early bird round, arriving in a couple months.

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2318 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 03:51:38 »
anyone got a walk through on missing key stroke issues... my spacebar has gone awol xD
 
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2319 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 08:41:01 »
Yes I posted a guide on one of the recent blog posts.  Essentially you first take off the space bar and install a 1U key in its place to see if the xwhatsit matrix registers a key press.  If it does, then you have to carefully reseat the space bar with the method in the video I posted recently.  If not you may need to replace the spring (also later in that same QC video).

Offline iamacicada

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2320 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:00:58 »
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2321 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 07:52:14 »
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?

Read the following posts:

Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.

I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.

(Attachment Link)

Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues.  Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.

The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold. 

Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.

First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link).  In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.

Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77.  Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason).  Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77.  Click store to EEPROM. 

Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/

Offline snevok

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2322 on: Mon, 17 February 2020, 19:24:16 »


Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since.  Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows.  Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys. 

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2323 on: Tue, 18 February 2020, 08:19:33 »
Show Image


Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since.  Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows.  Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys.

Beautiful picture. I really need to stop looking at this thread until mine finally ships, but I know that I can't.

Offline skwrn

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2324 on: Tue, 18 February 2020, 15:08:24 »


That looks super good. I wish I could find some good quality keyboards to harvest from in central Europe.
The ones that are here, are being sold with ISO keymaps, which to me is unexceptable. That's why I ordered my F62 with printed keycaps, which I expect to be the highest quality.

I am curious, how is the research on manufacturing the best acceptable dye sublimation going on?
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 February 2020, 12:37:29 by skwrn »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2325 on: Thu, 20 February 2020, 13:40:15 »
Nice photo and keycap set snevok!  Looks great on the Model F F62. 

One of the first video reviews has been posted on YouTube - here's the link.

For this reviewer, Joc's updated firmware with the alternative debounce threshold 11 was optimal while debounce 6 had some issues with pressed keys.  The F62 was connected to a 2016 Dell laptop for this test.  I don't know the reason for the need to use threshold 6 vs. 11 but my guess is that the capacitive sensing is more sensitive to minute differences in voltage output or USB power management and that affects a small, but significant, percentage of xwhatsit controller users based on the connected equipment.  If anyone has more details on this please do share!


Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2326 on: Thu, 27 February 2020, 19:53:22 »
Im really glad I ordered mine years ago before the AUD dropped so much against the USD.  :)  It would be getting close to $700 in Australian dollars now.  :(

After seeing the pics from people who have already received theirs, I had to pull out my old Model F from a box of non-working keyboard bits just to get my hit of buckling spring goodness.

236587-0




Offline jasburbak

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2327 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 06:35:54 »
I posted my review on Deskthority, and just copy pasted it below, didn't want to rewrite it, thought it might also help others waiting for their keyboards  ;D

Quote from: jasburbak post_id=460387 time=1582891569 user_id=19458
Since I was one of the early receivers of the Model F Keyboard, I thought I'd add my two cents; it might help others in waiting, and a couple pages ago Ellipse had asked others who had received their keyboards for input, so here we go:

Show Image


My keyboard was shipped on Jan 26. within the U.S. to a relatives address, I didn't want international shipping to my home in Europe to avoid customs, tax and international shipping charges, all of which usually are quite a lot to us folks outside the U.S, and planned to pick it up whenever I had the chance to travel to the states.  Which turned out to be sooner than I thought, I received and opened the box a few days ago.

My keyboard arrived safe and sound, only the spacebar was dislodged. I ran through a key test looking for buzzing springs or non responsive keys, I had 5 keys that had an "after buzz" and one key that had " a non registering sound". I removed them, held the keyboard vertical spacebar side up, teased and tugged the springs then coaxed them a couple times down into the barrel, and reinserted the caps. This fixed the buzzing in all the caps but one, and fixed the non registering sound to a "registering ping" in the other. The one cap that wasn't fixed was a stubborn fellow, and took me I think 4-5 trys till it got rid of the buzz. (Just follow the video guideline that Ellipse made) - this was a fairly easy process.

I connected the keyboard straight to my computer, and everything works right out of the box. I did a quick type test at around 90wpm, and everything went beautifully, all keys register and there was no spamming. For my selected option, the HHKB style split right shift Fn key, and the layering for the numpad on the right were already done, to my pleasant surprise, I thought I would have to map each key out in xwhatsit when I received it.

(one thing I would suggest for Ellipse is, for future reference:  when selecting the keyboard configuration on the order page, to have
a visual representation of the layout. I spend quite some time trying to make sure what I was choosing was the correct one for me- you responded quickly and were very helpful via email about this, it would just be easier on you and the person ordering to have such layouts visually available).

The Case: The finish is quite well done, I didn't really notice the mold line that a few people were mentioning, my only criticism in this would be the color. I was expecting that classic off-white IBM color, and in reality it has more of a beige tone added into that mix. The photos do not reflect the color, in the photos, it looks as the color that I was expecting. It's not a big deal by the way, at least for me- it has that "NES box left out in the sun over two decades color tint" feel. Those who know what that is will get it. By the way this case is a behemoth. Lifting it to take out and reinsert the keycaps might have thrown off my shoulder. But the finish quality and texture is great, like it should be.

The Typing: Wonderful buckling spring action. Nothing more needed to say. It's been a while since I've typed on one, and the feel of it is very close to the originals in which I remember. It is a bit more crisp and precise than the Model M's that I'm used to, but those have decades of wear and tear on them, so in time these will mush up a bit too. My only complaint, like a couple others is the space bar. That one kinda surprised me. It feels very "hollow". The satisfying thunk sound, or feel isn't present. I haven't messed around with the wire (bending it and the like) yet, and I'm sure someone much more intuitive than I will find a mod that will improve the feel of it within the coming months, so I'll be on the lookout. Perhaps gluing a thin strip of metal underneath the space bar might add to its key feel?

All in all, this is an absolutely wonderful keyboard. And a huge undertaking for one man. I read someone criticize that the board wasn't 100% perfect upon arrival, and that you shouldn't need to fix buzzing springs, etc.  These keyboards need to be tuned. Like a piano. Even with Ellipse's individual QC, things shift around during shipping, etc..  People who pay this kind of money for an enthusiast keyboard and spend countless more on mech keyboards, and caps, and switches etc, are also of the variety who like to tinker. Or at least have learned to do so.  I went into this buy with the possibility that it might actually not go through, that's always a risk, and recreating a keyboard like this down to so much of its detail and feel is a very very big undertaking, and accomplishing it on such a level is a really commendable task. It was worth the wait. So, congrats Ellipse, bravo. 

This is now my daily driver, and isn't she a beauty and a joy forever.

Show Image



Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2328 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 07:28:45 »
I posted my review on Deskthority, and just copy pasted it below, didn't want to rewrite it, thought it might also help others waiting for their keyboards  ;D

I have read it, although I don't have an account over there. I check that thread almost every day. It sure helps me wish even more that I had mine.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that all Model Fs are inherently more crisp and precise than Model Ms. Both of my F ATs, and F XT, are. They hadn't exactly been babied by their previous owners over the past 34-ish years.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 February 2020, 08:26:10 by Maledicted »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2329 on: Sat, 29 February 2020, 09:36:06 »
Pete why is your old Model F not working?  Do the bigfoot keyboards work with Soarer's converter:  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9418&start=

Thanks jasburbak for the detailed review and for sharing it on both forums.  I am glad that these keyboards will be used as daily drivers all around the world!

I have added visual representations of the layouts and function layer to each of the four product pages to help everyone choose.

And here's my note on the beige color from a few weeks ago: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=459699#p459699

In addition to the methods described in the "QC secrets" for fixing buzzing springs, I have found that sometimes just stretching the spring and then reinstalling the key reduces the buzz - the buzz may have to do with a length of spring slightly too short for a particular key, as well as a spring end that should be a bit closer to the flipper nub.

Offline Pete

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2330 on: Sat, 29 February 2020, 18:00:30 »
Pete why is your old Model F not working?  Do the bigfoot keyboards work with Soarer's converter:  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9418&start=

Thanks Ellipse. After I ordered your new Model F keyboard I kind of lost motivation to do the work to fix up and convert the old bigfoot. One day though....


Offline nathanchere

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2331 on: Wed, 04 March 2020, 04:06:37 »
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?

If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years.  Every month that date moves out by one month.

An official answer from Ellipse wouldn't hurt would it? What is significant about the please have your orders in by x!' date?

Offline rknize

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2332 on: Wed, 04 March 2020, 15:14:14 »
237093-0
Russ

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2333 on: Wed, 04 March 2020, 17:52:28 »
Thanks for letting me know - the project web site is back up now. 

Regarding the deadline, I have discussed in the past the reason for the deadline and why it has been delayed.  I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month.  I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April.  Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected. 

So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).

If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2334 on: Thu, 05 March 2020, 12:04:17 »
And here are some unique variations of keyboards that have gone out in recent weeks:

The first keyboard (first two photos below) has original IBM XT keys installed, with blank keys for the non-XT keys.
237149-0
237151-1
237153-2
237155-3
237157-4
237159-5

Offline dgneo

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2335 on: Thu, 05 March 2020, 12:07:53 »
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.

Been on the fence about grabbing one for a couple years now but this might push me over the edge  :confused:

Online LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2336 on: Fri, 06 March 2020, 11:37:54 »
Thanks for letting me know - the project web site is back up now. 

Regarding the deadline, I have discussed in the past the reason for the deadline and why it has been delayed.  I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month.  I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April.  Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected. 

So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).

If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.

PMd you here on geekhack with a question!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2337 on: Sat, 07 March 2020, 16:41:20 »
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard!  I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly five years and it is good to know that people appreciate the effort put into the project to have a Brand New Model F Keyboard.

Dye sublimation update:

I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.

Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.

As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.

I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.

Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.

237260-0

Offline ljosa

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2338 on: Sat, 07 March 2020, 16:50:55 »
Congratulations, this is huge!

Offline mode

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2339 on: Sun, 08 March 2020, 15:35:07 »
Excellent, :)

My wife is very much looking forward to receiving her F77 and has been happy to be patient and wait for dye sublimation to be done right!

Offline macclack

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2340 on: Sun, 08 March 2020, 21:05:45 »
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard!  I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly five years and it is good to know that people appreciate the effort put into the project to have a Brand New Model F Keyboard.

Dye sublimation update:

I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.

Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.

As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.

I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.

Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.

(Attachment Link)
This is all fascinating. At some point can you post a video to show the sublimation process?

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2341 on: Sun, 08 March 2020, 21:48:41 »
I don't really care much about dye sublimation quality recreation, but that certainly does look great Ellipse. Nice work, as always.

I just snagged what may be the first re-sold F77 on Ebay, so long as it wasn't a scam. Time will tell. Comes with stabilizer inserts and space bar only, but I also snagged a cheap late 80s-ish model M with a damaged SDL jack to scavenge keys from in anticipation of winning the auction. I had another early M in need of some F keys anyway.



Industrial gray. I had planned on ordering a second F77 in that color at some point anyway. Hearing from whoever sold this would be reassuring, since the Ebay account had a whopping 0 feedback rating.


Offline skwrn

  • Posts: 18
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2342 on: Mon, 09 March 2020, 12:46:16 »
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard!  I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly (...)

Thanks for the update! Fingers crossed for the process.

Offline beepbloop

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2343 on: Wed, 11 March 2020, 19:42:23 »
Posted a few photos and a typing test video of my F77 over on DT.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=461064#p461064

Love the keyboard!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2344 on: Fri, 13 March 2020, 18:45:33 »
Thanks beepbloop for the review with photos and video!  Nice APL key set too!

Another new variation:
237768-0
237770-1

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2345 on: Mon, 16 March 2020, 19:30:44 »
Two more variations going out:

The first variation below is the first assembled keyboard photographed with the custom Silver Gray case color.  I paid for some extras of this color beyond what was ordered by everyone so I have about 10 extra cases in stock.  This custom color will not be made in the final round so this is your only chance to order it.  The color is difficult to photograph but the Pantone Silver Gray color is what I would describe as a gray color with a small amount of blue.

237981-0
237983-1
237985-2
237987-3

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2346 on: Tue, 17 March 2020, 22:19:13 »
I have had the F77 I snagged on Ebay for about a week now, so I have had a little time to configure it, modify it to my liking, and get a feel for it. The caps are mostly original Model M caps from about 1988 (for now). The rest for the oddballs like the Geekhack Windows keys and dedicated media keys over the arrow keys are from Unicomp. I simply couldn't do the plain-looking modern usb cable, and mod aviator connectors onto most of the boards I care most about anyway, and I figured an oldschool beefy industrial design really deserved something with paracord for a nice retro cloth-covered look. I put a rubber washer between the aviator connector and the case ... because I didn't want to ruin that beautiful 80's style powder coat.



I think the more industrial-looking cable is a good fit.



Why not have a nice cap for it as well?



On to the boards as they come though. The powder coating job is fantastic. It does really look like something from out of the 80s, and looks and feels great in its own right regardless.



All I could think off offhand to compare it against is the bottom of this beige label Zenith Z-150 case. The F77 is obviously shinier, and there are a lot more individual blobs, which are also larger, but I think this varied a lot back then anyway. I don't have any original Zinc Fs to compare against.



Configuration was a breeze for me. I didn't have to adjust anything on the software side other than whatever tweaks to the mapping I wanted to do. I did have about 3 flippers that seemed to get stuck no matter how many times I would reseat the cap. The one that I noticed first I was able to fix by taking the whole plate sandwich apart and making sure that the spring was pulled all of the way down the post it is mounted on fairly uniformly, and then compare it against a good flipper assembly and bend the spring a bit until its profile seemed to match pretty well. The other two I noticed later, and I had already taken the sandwich apart multiple times for other curiosity reasons that night, so I attempted to fix them without disassembly.  It was a pain, but I did end up being able to fix both of them by just sticking a flathead precision screwdriver (and sometimes gripped the spring with some needle nose pliers and pressed it down with that) down there to try to press the spring more snugly down the post of the flipper, working different spots until the spring sat fairly straight in relation to others. After that, working the switch vigorously a few minutes seemed to make them begin to function just as reliably as the one I had taken the sandwich apart to mess with, and sound as they should to boot.

I imagine that frustation over this may be why the original owner decided to just list the thing on Ebay when it is basically still brand new, but it really only took a little problem-solving. I also can't say whether or not these problems were initially user-error in that regard either.

Once I had everything working, one of the first things I noticed was that the switches (initially) felt a little rougher than an original Model F, but still far better than an M. I'm attributing this to this being a brand new board and the old Fs being all 30+-years-old. After typing on it for some time, quite a few of the alphanumeric keys already feel just as smooth as my original F boards.

Once I began comparing the feel in smoothness against one of my F ATs and my F XT, I noticed immediately that the weighting of the new boards actually feels even lighter than the original Fs, by a noticeable amount. I imagine there's a minor difference in the spring specs. My next, and most interesting, observation is that the actuation point, and tactile event, is actually quite a bit higher than that of the originals. Very close, in fact, to a Model M. I don't believe that there's a big enough difference between M and F caps to be the source of this, but perhaps? My original Fs are almost at full travel by the time that they actuate. This board is closer to a mid-high actuation point in my estimation. I couldn't quite believe this myself and initially attributed it to the lighter springs, but it was apparent even when comparing them side by side and seeing how far the cap would dip compared to the others before reaching the tactile event. I suppose that, with this design, a difference in springs may even slightly modify the point at which those springs buckle, even if the entirety of the rest of the design were identical. In all other regards, they feel just like the originals.

The difference in sound between the F77, F XT, and F AT is interesting, to say the least. The XT, of course, is extremely high-pitched and pingy. The F AT is the deepest and most subdued of the three. The F77 seems to have some characteristics of both. In spite of the entire case being made of metal, that metal is very thick, and it seems to simultaneously keep the overall pitch lower than the XT, but still almost as pingy and reverberant. Mine came, from the original owner, with nothing on the spacebar stabilizer, so it is a little wobbly and squeaky. I'm not one to care much at all about that sort of thing, but I imagine I'll just slap some dielectric grease on it and call it good if I ever bother with anything.

These things are wonderfully solid, and very thick. I think I own RIFLES that weigh less than this slab of zinc, and it is a joy to experience that. My stepped drill bit was having trouble just hacking through this thing. Overall build quality is top notch.

I think these are fantastic boards overall, and worth every penny. I imagine I'll be using this one (and at least another once my direct order ships) heavily for many, many, many years to come.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2347 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 09:02:58 »
Thanks for the detailed review Maledicted and for the photos, especially comparing the Zenith case.

Here are some notes:

Regarding re-seating springs:  just a note for those who come across the review that in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key - I have posted some videos on this thread as well as on the web site blog detailing a quick spring adjustment and key re-seating guide that requires less than one minute per key to do.  Very important to reattach the key as shown in these videos, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the space bar row up).  The goal is to have the spring touch the 12 o'clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way.  If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o'clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.

Regarding squeaky space bars - that is nearly always the case of adjusting/slightly stretching or replacing the spring rather than due to the space bar stabilizer wire.  This is something I test on all keyboards as part of QC but I hope to improve on this.  On a similar note, especially with rattling space bar wires as well as to prevent the space bar from getting stuck on the end of the metal tab, I recommend pressing down on the metal tabs if you re-seat the space bar (after confirming no squeak and proper buckling when pressing the space bar).  I do this as needed during QC.  With the final production round, the metal tabs will be adjusted a bit to minimize the need to get them out of the way manually.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2348 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 09:49:08 »
Thanks for the detailed review Maledicted and for the photos, especially comparing the Zenith case.

Here are some notes:

Regarding re-seating springs:  just a note for those who come across the review that in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key - I have posted some videos on this thread as well as on the web site blog detailing a quick spring adjustment and key re-seating guide that requires less than one minute per key to do.  Very important to reattach the key as shown in these videos, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the space bar row up).  The goal is to have the spring touch the 12 o'clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way.  If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o'clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.

Regarding squeaky space bars - that is nearly always the case of adjusting/slightly stretching or replacing the spring rather than due to the space bar stabilizer wire.  This is something I test on all keyboards as part of QC but I hope to improve on this.  On a similar note, especially with rattling space bar wires as well as to prevent the space bar from getting stuck on the end of the metal tab, I recommend pressing down on the metal tabs if you re-seat the space bar (after confirming no squeak and proper buckling when pressing the space bar).  I do this as needed during QC.  With the final production round, the metal tabs will be adjusted a bit to minimize the need to get them out of the way manually.
Thank you for bringing these beauties back to life Ellipse. It was certainly worth the effort.

I'm a tinkerer, so I honestly didn't bother to look at the guides specific to springs and flippers yet. I may try flipping a a few springs as per your suggestions on your website, since some do buzz a bit (I don't particularly care though). Having owned Model Fs for some time now, I was reseating the caps properly, but the springs were not always in the sweet spot, so it wasn't of much help until that was resolved.

Again, I have no idea what the previous owner may have done to this thing, and it has made two long shipping journeys, possibly with Ace Ventura kicking it down staircases both ways.

Do you know of any compatible newly-manufactered springs that may move the actuation point down closer to an original F offhand?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #2349 on: Wed, 18 March 2020, 10:03:18 »
The new springs are the same height as original Model F springs.

The new Model F keys have the actuation point near the bottom of the key press on a new Model F, same as with many of the original examples.  Model M keys are compatible, but with various Model M keys you may see different results when installed on a Model F.  Some Model M key tolerances are 0.2 to 0.4mm off from a Model F key and that affects the actuation point.