New Cherry Browns board or new RealForce 104 Silent?

[keyjay]

Totally subjective opinions I'm seeking here but maybe it can help save me a little time and money by buying and trying.

After lots of research and trying a few years ago (even tried buckling springs boards and hated them), I fell in love with Cherry Browns and have used t hem happily for a few years now. The Leopold from EK had me very, happy for the desk on my office, and still does. The Cherry Browns board I had made by WASD a few years ago has had me quite happy, too. Though, on both, I had to do the mod of adding o-rings, and the board from WASD has the lettering wearing off quite a bit by now.

I'm also trying to type more during phone conversations and write notes on legal pads less. Ideally, a quieter version of a Cherry Browns board would be ideal.

I only use 104 layouts. (I'm entering credit cards and such pretty often and I'm a very experienced touch-typist but still have to look for the numbers across the top or in the numpad.) And, I "prefer" all black with white lettering (I wear reading glasses, and I still have to look at lettering sometimes).

So...

EK has just announced having new RealForce 104 "Silent" boards, which, as far as I know, is the first time this configuration has existed! In a way, it's what I've been waiting for. That and a good practical version of what the Leopold offered (Cherry Browns in a black 104 layout with good lettering and nothing weird like media or gaming keys or shiny surfaces that show fingerprints).

I have had a Type Heaven for a year or more, but it's on my video editing machine at the office and it hasn't had much use. I've played with it plenty enough to determine that "I think" overall I'm faster and more comfortable with the Browns than the Topre switches on the Type Heaven, but I don't' know how much the better quality PBT keycaps on the RealForce 104 Silent will feel over the cheaper plastic ones on the Type Heaven, and I don't know if any other differences between the two board might also make the new RealForce 104 Silent more fast and accurate for me -- nor do I know whether just more experience will make it eventually become preferable to me over the Browns.

The Type Heaven isn't really quieter than the Browns in my judgments, even though I think Brian of EK told me it's the same keys and switches and dampeners that the Silent versions of RealForce employ (at least that was what I believe he told me a year or two ago -- I don't know if anything has changed with a RealForce Silent since then.)

So...

Anyplace to go for a new Cherry Browns board that's closest to the Leopold?

Any idea whether the new RealForce 104 Silent will feel more like the Browns and/or be any quieter as compared to the Browns boards I've been using?

(As an extra bonus question, I prefer black boards but Brian warns about the black-on-black lettering with the RealForce boards, and I'm wondering whether a little light over the keyboard when needed might suffice.)

Thanks!

Jay

[Vittra]

1) The 104 RF silent boards he is selling are variable weighting, so take a look at his site to see what weighting is on what parts of the board. He's got a chart up on those pages so you know what you are getting in to. For reference, the Type Heaven you've used is 45G uniform. You may find for typing that you actually enjoy variable weighting, but you'd have to try to know for sure unfortunately.

2) The Type Heaven doesn't employ silencing. Essentially on the silenced board, you will retain the "thock" occurring from depressing the key, but eliminate the "clack" that occurs from the upstroke. You basically lose the annoying part and retain the signature, pleasing Topre sound.

3) Mechanicalkeyboards.com has 45G uniform and 30G uniform silenced Realforce boards under the "Ducky" branding, but the keycaps are a brilliant white with black legends.

4) The PBT keycaps Topre employs are significantly better than the ABS caps of the Type Heaven.

As an alternative, you could consider a KUL board that EK has, with a numpad addition. This may not be particularly appealing to you though, since it sounds like you heavily rely on the numpad. You could, perhaps, investigate some of the full-sized options MK sells (as above, in point 3) sells.

[keyjay]

1) The 104 RF silent boards he is selling are variable weighting, so take a look at his site to see what weighting is on what parts of the board. He's got a chart up on those pages so you know what you are getting in to. For reference, the Type Heaven you've used is 45G uniform. You may find for typing that you actually enjoy variable weighting, but you'd have to try to know for sure unfortunately.

2) The Type Heaven doesn't employ silencing. Essentially on the silenced board, you will retain the "thock" occurring from depressing the key, but eliminate the "clack" that occurs from the upstroke. You basically lose the annoying part and retain the signature, pleasing Topre sound.

3) Mechanicalkeyboards.com has 45G uniform and 30G uniform silenced Realforce boards under the "Ducky" branding, but the keycaps are a brilliant white with black legends.

4) The PBT keycaps Topre employs are significantly better than the ABS caps of the Type Heaven.

As an alternative, you could consider a KUL board that EK has, with a numpad addition. This may not be particularly appealing to you though, since it sounds like you heavily rely on the numpad. You could, perhaps, investigate some of the full-sized options MK sells (as above, in point 3) sells.

Thank you so much for this! I completely forgot about weighting! OMG! My experience in that realm is pretty cut-and-dried: I like 45G uniform! So, that's enough reason to give me pause about the EK 104's.

It's reassuring that the Silent RFs are quieter than the Type Heaven (where I certainly do observe that the upstroke is the annoying part).

MK has 45G uniform silent RF in 104? That sounds like just what I'm looking for. Or, I'm sure I could make a KUL with a separate numpad work if necessary (with some kind of secure mounting I'd devise). Are you able to please help me with any pros and cons you imagine I might want to consider between those choices: Browns over the silenced Topres  with PBT caps when my current point of reference is Browns vs Type Heaven (very subjective, I know), and MK's Ducky 104 vs KUL with the separate numpad?

Thanks so much!

Jay

[1391406]

I own a Logitech 710+ (Browns), a Type Heaven, and a 104U Silent I acquired from Massdrop. I originally liked the Browns a lot, but bought the Type Heaven in order to swap its 45g domes into a RF 87U. I used that 87U for awhile and liked it a lot more than the 710+. Compared to the Type Heaven, the 87U with PBT caps just felt and sounded superior. Once I'd used the 87U for a day or so, I put the Type Heaven back in the box and stuck it up in the closet. I've pulled it out and typed on it for comparison periodically, but I'm totally spoiled now. Then Massdrop was selling RF 104U silent versions, so I bought one with the idea of swapping the 45g domes from the 87U into the 104U. However, after I finally got my hands on it, I really, really liked how it felt, even moreso than the 45g weighting. And the silencing is just icing on the cake! I totally love this board.

In your case, this is exactly what I'd do... I'd buy the 104U silent and if I didn't like the variable weighting, I'd swap the 45g domes from the Type Heaven into it. It's a win / win either way. Trust me, the PBT caps and silencing make a world of difference compared to the Type Heaven regardless which weighting you prefer. It's night and day to me. The 104U silent version makes the Type Heaven feel cheap by comparison to me. Further, who knows how long the 104U silent will remain in stock at EK.

[Hyde]

I own Das Keyobard MX Brown, Topre 104U (modded to all 45g), and Type Heaven (stock all 45g).

If you want absolute SPEED.  MX Brown feels faster.  Topre is never designed for speed but it sure as hell feels better and smoother for typing.

As for sound:

Loud -> Quiet
MX Brown -> Topre Type Heaven -> MX Brown with O-Ring (But in my opinion this feels the worst out of the group) -> Realforce 104U -> Realforce 104U Silent

On Topre for some reason the ABS keycaps are loud, the PBT is a bit quieter then the silent version is also quieter on top of it.

So as others have mentioned, your best choice is this:  https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1509

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

Again everyone has different preferences, but based on your criteria I think this is the best bet. 

[1391406]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.

To clarify, only 4 alphanumeric keys are 30g.

[septamber]

I own Das Keyobard MX Brown, Topre 104U (modded to all 45g), and Type Heaven (stock all 45g).

If you want absolute SPEED.  MX Brown feels faster.  Topre is never designed for speed but it sure as hell feels better and smoother for typing.

As for sound:

Loud -> Quiet
MX Brown -> Topre Type Heaven -> MX Brown with O-Ring (But in my opinion this feels the worst out of the group) -> Realforce 104U -> Realforce 104U Silent

On Topre for some reason the ABS keycaps are loud, the PBT is a bit quieter then the silent version is also quieter on top of it.

So as others have mentioned, your best choice is this:  https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1509

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

Again everyone has different preferences, but based on your criteria I think this is the best bet. 

+1 for the Ducky Realforce 45g silenced. Purple sliders are the best.

[robscomputer]

Everything mentioned is very close to my experience with Cherry Browns vs Torpe.

Typing this post on a Ducky Realforce 45 gram, being a long time Cherry Brown fan. I don't have experience on all switches and boards but have owned HHKB Type-S, Realforce 87U variable, a few other Cherry switches. Since I like the Cherry Brown feel, I find that the 45 gram Realforce silenced feels slightly harder to press than a stock Cherry Brown keyboard. I picked up a Ducky Shine 5 a week before receiving the Realforce, so it's pretty much back to back, both new keyboards. But honestly the feel is totally different in a good way. It's hard to say what is exactly like the Cherry Brown since you can only replicate that with a Cherry Brown style switch.

But if you're like me, wanting something for the office, that offers the nice mellow feedback of the Cherry Brown, is much more silent, and enjoyable to type on, I would suggest the 45 gram (or even the 30 gram if you could deal with some softer feel). I personally like this for the office  and home if you don't want to bother people next door, even as I'm typing, the feedback is very soft and sounds like I'm finger tapping a mouse pad on my desk. At work we have an open office environment, which some love and some hate, but during my typing I would realize people a row over from my desk could hear my keyboard. Not that I got any complaints, but I don't want to be that guy in the office. So I tried different Cherry boards, Clears, Browns with o-rings (which felt awful as mentioned above), finally Clears with thick PBT caps. The Clears with thick PBT caps worked the best, but I ended up keeping that board for home and order the Realforce for work.

The biggest trade off IMHO is I do miss the "snap" of Cherry Browns, the Realforce and I think 45/30/variables all have this slight sluggish feel on the up stroke of the key. I can't say the 55 grams have this problem, but if I was in a typing contest, I would look for something faster. Granted I'm a slow at typing so this is a moot point.

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM.

[1391406]

The biggest trade off IMHO is I do miss the "snap" of Cherry Browns, the Realforce and I think 45/30/variables all have this slight sluggish feel on the up stroke of the key. I can't say the 55 grams have this problem, but if I was in a typing contest, I would look for something faster.

I clock in at about 85 WPM(average), and the 45g / silent variable doesn't really feel sluggish to me. It has a softer landing and more cushioned feel in general, but I don't perceive it as sluggishness. That's just me, though.

[keyjay]

I hugely appreciate all the advice!

I suspect I'll be happier with 45G uniform than variable weighting (Unicomps and 55G boards I’ve tried out seemed incredibly hard to press to me, as a point of reference) and I'm really used to the Browns by now – they’re my sweet spot – and AFAIK they’re 45G. I realize a 45G RF is not exactly the same, but if I go to RF I'm sure we can agree a 45G RF is as close as I'll get to Browns.

It’s interesting a few people here are not happy with Browns with o-rings. To me, it’s a huge improvement and when I was exploring all of that a few years ago it seemed to be preferred by a majority of enthusiasts who weighed in at the time.

If I do try RF variable and decide to go to RF 45G, I'm not going to be swapping out switches myself (just so busy these days), but will pay someone to do it for me.

Trying an RF 104U Silent from EK sounds interesting since I can try the variables. A Ducky RF Silent 104U sounds interesting, too (or the EK with Type Heaven switches modded in).

HOWEVER, the comment that Browns are probably better for SPEED is quite significant to me. Speed is a top priority for me! I type pretty fast and type a lot all day. Sound reduction is not enough of a reason to forfeit speed if it really does come down to that.

And I can say that with the Type Heaven I felt that “buttery” feeling but even wrote in a post here two years ago that when running for my life – which is what I feel I’m doing much of the day in trying to keep up tying as fast as the person on the phone is talking or as fast as I need to in order to keep my work moving – running on a buttery surface doesn’t exactly seem optimal. Speed is absolutely a priority.

Which, compared to everything I tried thus far in the past, left me preferring the Browns a great deal.

But now there’s the RF 104 Silent boards (with PCT caps,) which just did not exist a couple of years ago AFAIK, and that seems interesting to try out.

So, the two questions I have right now, please, are:

1. How much is there a consensus that Browns are “faster” than RF variable Silent or RF 45G Silent?

2. If I do want to get new Browns boards with a 104 layout, what would you suggest looking at for a solid build in a business-like format?

Thanks again!!!

[klennkellon]

Maybe try the Matias Quiet Click?

They are a lot more tactile than the MX Browns, albeit heavier (60g) though not as much as Buckling Springs (75g) and are among the quietest switches up there with topre.

[keyjay]

Maybe try the Matias Quiet Click?

They are a lot more tactile than the MX Browns, albeit heavier (60g) though not as much as Buckling Springs (75g) and are among the quietest switches up there with topre.

I actually did try one, and returned it right away. Way too heavy for me.

[keyjay]

+1 for the Ducky Realforce 45g silenced. Purple sliders are the best.

So the "purple" sliders on the Ducky RF 45G Silent 104U are different/better than the sliders on the EK RF variable Silent 104U? (Not that I even know what "sliders" means yet, but I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. ;-) )

Thanks!

[robscomputer]

The biggest trade off IMHO is I do miss the "snap" of Cherry Browns, the Realforce and I think 45/30/variables all have this slight sluggish feel on the up stroke of the key. I can't say the 55 grams have this problem, but if I was in a typing contest, I would look for something faster.

I clock in at about 85 WPM(average), and the 45g / silent variable don't really feel sluggish to me. They have a softer landing and more cushioned feel in generally, but I don't perceive it as sluggishness. That's just me, though.

Yeah, I can't say from a actual speed reference that Torpe's are slowing in their transition time from off/on/off but their softer landing gave that perception. The harsh landing of the Cherry Browns felt faster as it's a hard click, where as I felt like the Torpe is more of a bounce landing.

Both are great, and I enjoy the Torpe for a long coding session. Especially late at night.

[robscomputer]

Maybe try the Matias Quiet Click?

They are a lot more tactile than the MX Browns, albeit heavier (60g) though not as much as Buckling Springs (75g) and are among the quietest switches up there with topre.

I actually did try one, and returned it right away. Way too heavy for me.

This worries me since you sound like the same keyboard profile as myself and I wanted to get the Matias quiet click next.

[phoible]

I own a Leopold FC200 (TKL) with MX Browns, a silenced Novatouch, and a bunch of other keyboards. I believe that I type faster on the Leopold, but the silenced Novatouch is definitely quieter. Not sure if it's just a learning curve (have only had the Novatouch for a few months), but there is something about the Topre action that slows me down a bit.

I also have a V80 with Matias Quiet Clicks, and it might be the best of the bunch. Definitely a bit quieter than MX Browns, but my typing speed is comparable.

[klennkellon]

Maybe try the Matias Quiet Click?

They are a lot more tactile than the MX Browns, albeit heavier (60g) though not as much as Buckling Springs (75g) and are among the quietest switches up there with topre.

I actually did try one, and returned it right away. Way too heavy for me.

As someone who uses both MX Reds and complicated White ALPS, you do get used to the weight eventually once your fingers get used to hammering the keys down more.

I still kind of prefer MX Blues, but ALPS sound so delicious.

This worries me since you sound like the same keyboard profile as myself and I wanted to get the Matias quiet click next.

[Macsmasher]

For straight, proper form typing, I prefer my RF variable to my other Topre uniform boards.

[Hyde]

+1 for the Ducky Realforce 45g silenced. Purple sliders are the best.

So the "purple" sliders on the Ducky RF 45G Silent 104U are different/better than the sliders on the EK RF variable Silent 104U? (Not that I even know what "sliders" means yet, but I'm sure I'll find out soon enough. ;-) )

Thanks!

I wouldn't say "better", but it's designed for its purpose.

The way this works is that the Silent Topre has silicone rings in them to dampen the upstroke, but the silicon ring takes up space inside the slider so it would reduce key travel by 0.5 ~ 1 mm.

What the purple slider does is that it have a notch to offset this thickness so the key travel remain the same as regular Topre.

This way the regular Topre and Silence Topre should feel close enough (it's still not quite the same but close).

As regarding typing speed, here's my 2 cents:

MX Brown - Probably fastest, since the spring and hard bottom out feels cleaner but I also get the most typo using MX Brown compare to others (relative term, in general use it's totally not bad at all).

Matias Quiet ALPS - I have this too, this might feel heavier than MX Brown though I still don't find it tiring for regular use.  Though the ALPS tactile leaf feels different than both MX Brown and Topre.  But I'd say this feels like the middle ground between the two.  Also Topre is quieter than this, this has a "crunchy" kind of sound.

Topre - Since the dome collapse and bounce back in a gradual kind of force curve, so it might be perceived as slower.  However PBT caps do "feel" faster/cleaner than ABS caps on Topre, so your Realforce will feel faster than Type Heaven.  While Topre do feel a tiny bit slower than MX Brown I do have less typo with Topre.

I feel that you can't go wrong with either one.  It's more  up to what you value more.  Again the speed difference between MX Brown and Topre isn't huge, it's just if you want a little bit faster (MX Brown) or a less typo (Topre).

At the moment since the Ducky Realforce is new and most likely limited edition.  I'd be inclined to go with that route, worst case you can always sell it and buy any MX Brown later (since it's easy to find). 

[falkentyne]

Surprised no one told you yet,
The RGB version of the Cherry MX browns are quieter than the non RGB versions.  The housing is completely different.

Proof?  I have a Shine 3 MX brown, shine 4 MX Brown, G710+ MX brown and Year of the Goat RGB MX Brown.
The Shine 3, 4 and Logitech all sound the same more or less with minor differences (quite loud).  The Year of the Goat (No O rings) sounds a lot like the Shine 4 with O rings installed, and the doubleshot keycaps help even more.

[TopreFan333]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

[Hyde]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

LOL hahahaha nice to know my board is still alive and kicking out there somewhere.  But yeah I think variable is definitely a love or hate relationship, some people love it while some don't.

And for anyone that's interested, this is what I did:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68076.0

[TopreFan333]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

LOL hahahaha nice to know my board is still alive and kicking out there somewhere.  But yeah I think variable is definitely a love or hate relationship, some people love it while some don't.

And for anyone that's interested, this is what I did:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68076.0

Nice. I had not actually seen all the gory details. This board, you may like to know, is now sporting a full set of white PBT Realforce keys. So I guess it's a poor man's Realforce at this point? Something like that. I really spend most of my time on the HHKB, but keep this around if I need a full-sized board for graphic design work.

[1391406]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

The thing is, only 4 alphanumeric keys in the variable weighted boards are 30g. Half of the alphanumerics are 45g and the rest are a mix of 35g and 40g.

[TopreFan333]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

The thing is, only 4 alphanumeric keys in the variable weighted boards are 30g. Half of the alphanumerics are 45g and the rest are a mix of 35g and 40g.

Ah, true. All I can say from my experience is that the keys away from the center of the board feel a lot more slight to the touch.

[1391406]

Personally I've tried the variable Topre and didn't like it, the 30g domes feels very mushy.  It bugged me enough that I actually bought another Type Heaven and mod the 45g domes over to my Realforce then sold the variable Type Heaven after.

LOL. I think I own that Type Heaven you modded (bought it through the forums here from another member). I have to agree, the lighter keys do feel a bit... light, for lack of a better word. Coming from a 45g HHKB, it's harder to tell you're pressing the key with a 30g switch. I keep telling myself I'll try it out for a full week or so, though, because some people insist the variables are less tiring to type on over long periods.

The thing is, only 4 alphanumeric keys in the variable weighted boards are 30g. Half of the alphanumerics are 45g and the rest are a mix of 35g and 40g.

Ah, true. All I can say from my experience is that the keys away from the center of the board feel a lot more slight to the touch.

Undoubtedly the keys around the periphery are indeed lighter. Fortunately, the vast majority of alphanumerics have at least some tactility.

[swagpiratex]

Can confirm that you type a little slower on the 45g topre vs the MX Browns, but it feels much better so you end up not caring.

[1391406]

Can confirm that you type a little slower on the 45g topre vs the MX Browns

I do too, but I also type faster on variable weighted than MX Browns.

[keyjay]

I wouldn't say "better", but it's designed for its purpose.

The way this works is that the Silent Topre has silicone rings in them to dampen the upstroke, but the silicon ring takes up space inside the slider so it would reduce key travel by 0.5 ~ 1 mm.

What the purple slider does is that it have a notch to offset this thickness so the key travel remain the same as regular Topre.

This way the regular Topre and Silence Topre should feel close enough (it's still not quite the same but close).

As regarding typing speed, here's my 2 cents:

MX Brown - Probably fastest, since the spring and hard bottom out feels cleaner but I also get the most typo using MX Brown compare to others (relative term, in general use it's totally not bad at all).

Matias Quiet ALPS - I have this too, this might feel heavier than MX Brown though I still don't find it tiring for regular use.  Though the ALPS tactile leaf feels different than both MX Brown and Topre.  But I'd say this feels like the middle ground between the two.  Also Topre is quieter than this, this has a "crunchy" kind of sound.

Topre - Since the dome collapse and bounce back in a gradual kind of force curve, so it might be perceived as slower.  However PBT caps do "feel" faster/cleaner than ABS caps on Topre, so your Realforce will feel faster than Type Heaven.  While Topre do feel a tiny bit slower than MX Brown I do have less typo with Topre.

I feel that you can't go wrong with either one.  It's more  up to what you value more.  Again the speed difference between MX Brown and Topre isn't huge, it's just if you want a little bit faster (MX Brown) or a less typo (Topre).

At the moment since the Ducky Realforce is new and most likely limited edition.  I'd be inclined to go with that route, worst case you can always sell it and buy any MX Brown later (since it's easy to find). 

Actually, this is very interesting to me. I greatly prefer that my MX Browns have o-rings (silicon), partly because of the overall feel (and slightly reduced sound) but also partly because I prefer the shorter travel distance. Can you please clarify for me which version of RF or Topre has that shorter travel with the silicon rings (as opposed to the purple notched ones that don't reduce the travel)?

It seems to me that the Ducky RF is not Silent. Is that correct?

The EK Silent variable RF is looking a bit more interesting to me the more I read in this thread and the more I consider my priorities (especially since my girlfriend said to me a few minutes ago while talking to her on the phone that she could hear me typing -- which was on my MX Browns board -- and knew I wasn't giving her my total attention). Tough choice since speed really is a top priority to me and I do love the MX Browns once I add o-rings -- and I definitely prefer them over the Type Heaven board I also own.

But if I can get used to a RealForce with PCT caps and be as comfortable and crisp with it in time as I am with the MX Browns I've been using for a few years now, and it's the quietest (a Silent), and it's more comfortable over longer periods, I should probably try one. And if I can get the one with reduced travel, all the better.

[1391406]

Actually, this is very interesting to me. I greatly prefer that my MX Browns have o-rings (silicon), partly because of the overall feel (and slightly reduced sound) but also partly because I prefer the shorter travel distance. Can you please clarify for me which version of RF or Topre has that shorter travel with the silicon rings (as opposed to the purple notched ones that don't reduce the travel)?

As far as I know, they don't sell a silenced Topre without the purple sliders.

It seems to me that the Ducky RF is not Silent. Is that correct?

The Ducky is silent.

But if I can get used to a RealForce with PCT caps and be as comfortable and crisp with it in time as I am with the MX Browns I've been using for a few years now, and it's the quietest (a Silent), and it's more comfortable over longer periods, I should probably try one. And if I can get the one with reduced travel, all the better.

The PBT caps and silencing make all the difference in the world. The RF Silent 104U (variable) feels like it has less travel than the Type Heaven to me.

[keyjay]

Actually, this is very interesting to me. I greatly prefer that my MX Browns have o-rings (silicon), partly because of the overall feel (and slightly reduced sound) but also partly because I prefer the shorter travel distance. Can you please clarify for me which version of RF or Topre has that shorter travel with the silicon rings (as opposed to the purple notched ones that don't reduce the travel)?

As far as I know, they don't sell a silenced Topre without the purple sliders.

It seems to me that the Ducky RF is not Silent. Is that correct?

The Ducky is silent.

But if I can get used to a RealForce with PCT caps and be as comfortable and crisp with it in time as I am with the MX Browns I've been using for a few years now, and it's the quietest (a Silent), and it's more comfortable over longer periods, I should probably try one. And if I can get the one with reduced travel, all the better.

The PBT caps and silencing make all the difference in the world. The RF Silent 104U (variable) feels like it has less travel than the Type Heaven to me.

Thanks.

I'm a little confused, though. I thought the purple sliders were the ones that did not[/b] reduce travel. So if all silenced Topres use them, it's confusing that the RF Silent 104U (variable) feels like it has less travel.

What am I missing?

(Also, I don't see anything on the Ducky web page that says it's silent. I wonder why they neglect to mention that.)

So, the choices for a RealForce 104 Silent seem to be EK RF 104U or the Ducky from MK, the differences being variable from EK vs 45G uniform from MK -- and of course the colors. Am I right?

[1391406]

I thought the purple sliders were the ones that did not reduce travel. So if all silenced Topres use them, it's confusing that the RF Silent 104U (variable) feels like it has less travel.

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. That's my understanding, as well. For whatever reason though, the Type Heaven feels like it has a bit more travel. However, consider that I originally swapped the 45g domes in the Type Heaven with 55g domes from my 87U. So, my Type Heaven currently has 55g domes. It's completely possible that the 104U seems to have less travel because the variable weighted domes don't have as much resistance, thus the time it takes to actuate the switch is slightly reduced. To be honest though, I'm not sure.

(Also, I don't see anything on the Ducky web page that says it's silent. I wonder why they neglect to mention that.)

MK doesn't mention it for whatever reason, but Ducky mentions it on their Facebook page and it's advertised on the box.

So, the choices for a RealForce 104 Silent seem to be EK RF 104U or the Ducky from MK, the differences being variable from EK vs 45G uniform from MK -- and of course the colors. Am I right?

Correct.

[Hyde]

^ This guy knows his stuff. 

The thing with purple slider (to my understanding) is that despite the notch, the silicon ring is still *slightly* thicker than the notch.

So it still reduce the key travel *slightly* despite Topre's best effort to remedy that issue.

I've typed on a silence Topre before and I agree it does feel a tiny bit more shallow than regular Topre.

This will actually work to your advantage. 

[keyjay]

So, if I understand correctly, by getting a RealForce "Silenced" I'm getting the shortest travel I'm going to find in a Topre (regardless of whether it's variable or 45G), correct?

In which case, I'm down to choosing between variable and 45G. Again, I love Browns, I type fast and type a lot, and need the speed. And I find the Type Heaven "almost" a bit heavy and clunky. Does that put me to leaning more towards the variable, or not necessarily?

Thanks again for all the kind help!

[1391406]

So, if I understand correctly, by getting a RealForce "Silenced" I'm getting the shortest travel I'm going to find in a Topre (regardless of whether it's variable or 45G), correct?

Yes, with the caveat that modding an unsilenced 104U with silencing rings would reduce the key travel a bit more than either a stock silenced or standard 104U.

In which case, I'm down to choosing between variable and 45G. Again, I love Browns, I type fast and type a lot, and need the speed. And I find the Type Heaven "almost" a bit heavy and clunky. Does that put me to leaning more towards the variable, or not necessarily?

I think the Type Heaven feels a bit clunky due to the keycaps. That said, if it feels a bit heavy then it's possible the variable weighted might be right up your alley, though it's completely possible it might feel just a bit too light.

The bad news is that EK sold out of all 104U's. Amazon has standard 104U's for $229.00 (white) and $222.00 (black).

[keyjay]

EK sold out. Great. Now I wait.

[keyjay]

EK says they expect more in within a few weeks.

Meanwhile, maybe I'll try a Ducky 45g uniform.

And anyone try out the Corsair MX Reds Silent? Any thoughts? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/corsair-strafe-rgb-mx-silent-gaming-keyboard-black/4370907.p?id=1219738782240&skuId=4370907

[keyjay]

EK says they expect more in within a few weeks.

Meanwhile, maybe I'll try a Ducky 45g uniform.

And anyone try out the Corsair MX Reds Silent? Any thoughts? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/corsair-strafe-rgb-mx-silent-gaming-keyboard-black/4370907.p?id=1219738782240&skuId=4370907

Continuing on that thought... I spoke with a senior tech at Cherry, and he said he's guessing their silenced Reds for Corsair are not much quieter than Reds or Browns with o-rings, if that. Interestingly, he also said their Reds were designed explicitly for typing all day and that perhaps the reason Browns and Blues are often mentioned as preferred for typing is they only introduced the Reds a few years ago while Blues and Browns have been out well over ten years. He suggested I might want to try a Reds board with o-rings added for an optimal experience with all-day typing (since I prefer o-rings with my Browns), though he's not expecting it to be much quieter than a Reds or Browns board with o-rings, if that.

[1391406]

He suggested I might want to try a Reds board with o-rings added for an optimal experience with all-day typing (since I prefer o-rings with my Browns), though he's not expecting it to be much quieter than a Reds or Browns board with o-rings, if that.

Massdrop is selling silenced 104U's for $280.00. Still 10 days left to grab one.  Link

[keyjay]

Massdrop is selling silenced 104U's for $280.00. Still 10 days left to grab one.  Link

On listening to online videos with sound demonstrations, a Topre 45g Silenced" seems like it can still produce enough sound for people on the phone with me to hear that I'm typing away, especially the spacebar (especially since I bang the spacebar pretty hard). I see dental bands as an option but probably not something that can be added to a RF Silenced (seems a Silenced is quieter than adding dental bands -- and I've only so far seen dental bands added to HHKB. And Massdrop has a  set of optional PCT spacebars that may I guess help a little bit with sound dampening).

I realize online sound samples are extremely subjective, of course. In once instance the Browns seemed quieter than a RF 45g Silenced.

A marketing manager at Cherry told me that for real sound reduction he'd suggest trying a (gasp) membrane board like their JD-0700. Or, the one he uses, their STRAIGHT JK-0300, which he says are really silent. Yet on YouTube an unboxing suggests that the STRAIGHT is still pretty darned loud (2:05 to 2:25 at https://youtu.be/Qmt6jni2MWk) -- not that I can every imagine adapting to this type of keyboard, but I'm really serious about trying to find a way to type all day really efficiently without people in the phone hearing that I'm typing. It's a matter of very pragmatic and pressing business necessities.

They can send a man to the moon, but... (sigh)

Looks like I'll be spending a lot of money trying various boards, though the time involved in doing that costs me a lot more than even the pricey boards do.

Again, any advice here is appreciated! (HELP! Someone just tell me what's going to be the best and quietest solution for a really tight keyboard similar to Browns in efficiency for fast typing all day, similar in weighting to the Browns or if anything a hair lighter than the Browns! Preferably in a 104 US Windows layout.)

Thanks again!

[Vittra]

You cannot use Youtube as a means for "sound" testing. Physical variables such as where the mic was placed to digital ones such as sound compression of the upload to youtube are all at play.

The only logical way to approach this  is a controlled test where the mic and keyboards are placed in the same location, and a sound test done whereby a dB value is produced - in turn you can then use this to place reference to real world objects.

This will never account for subjectivity and how someone perceives a certain type of sound - is the clack of an upstroke annoying? Is the thock of pressing a Topre key pleasant? This is independent from how loud a sound is.

[1391406]

Watch any two YouTube videos for the exact same keyboard and you'll find the audio is largely inconsistent. Why? Microphone proximity. Depending on how close the mic is to the keyboard, switches that seem relatively quiet in one video may sound thunderously loud in the next. Again, it largely depends on the mic and proximity to the source and the amount of compression (if any) applied to the audio.

That said, I know firsthand that MX Browns are, hands down, louder than the silenced 104U. No question. The silenced 104U is the quietest board I've ever used and as quiet as any rubber dome I've owned(and often quieter). The only thing I can think of that might be quieter are scissor switches, but they're uncomfortable for long typing sessions, in my opinion.

[keyjay]

Okay, good, now were' talking.

I just spoke with a rep at Mechanical Keyboards and he typed on his Browns board (no o-rings) and then on a Ducky Topre Silenced 45g uniform and the difference was like night and day. The Browns were loud and I could barely hear the Topre Silenced at all!

So, now I'm down to two choices: Ducky Topre Silenced 45g uniform from MK, with not so great coloring for my taste, with limited availability if and when I want more and then they're gone... OR, RealForce Silenced 104U variable from Massdrop for now (I'm about ready to finalize an order) and more from EK when they're back in stock (I'll need at least three total for myself)...

So, I will try the variable since that seems more likely to be ideal for typing and since I can get more...

And now I need to decide between the two colors. I prefer black keyboards by far, but the black-on-black lettering may be a challenge to see with my eyes (I wear reading glasses and at 59 years old contrast is my general challenge). Brian at EK says it should be okay in good lighting, but cautions that it might not. I guess I need to try it for myself and see. Or, the black lettering on white and gray caps that will be easy to read but not go with all the black hardware on my desks.

Not that I'm all that optimistic that I'll be able to ever be happy without my Browns, but there's only one way to find out now.

Thanks so much!

[keyjay]

Does the spacebar on the RF 104U Silenced variable call for adding more silencing to it and, if so, is there a practical way to do it?

[1391406]

Does the spacebar on the RF 104U Silenced variable call for adding more silencing to it and, if so, is there a practical way to do it?

The spacebar isn't as quiet as the other keys, but I don't notice it when typing. Since you heard the Ducky over the phone, you should have some frame of reference.

[robscomputer]

I had the Realforce 87U black on black version and now using the Ducky Realforce 45 gram keyboard. The black on black has a almost blank look at first glance and then you can see the slight shine of the legends on the keycaps. I did notice that while at the office with bright lighting from many over head lamps, the black on black wasn't an issue. But at home, even with a desk lamp, the legends were difficult to read. I'm mostly using the keyboard for writing and programming but I think it's a matter how comfortable you can with "near blank" keyboards.

As a side note, you can find optional Realforce keycap sets on ebay for about $150 shipped from Korea. They have very bright colors which might be a selling point if you want the most contrast. On that subject, while I'm not a fan of the fonts on the Ducky Realforce, the black on bright white, works great.

You mentioned how silent the Ducky Realforce sounded over the phone and I can say that from typing back to back on the Ducky Realforce and a Ducky Shine 5, it's a big difference, but it's also a totally different switch. Personally I enjoy the feel of both so I keep Cherry Browns at home where I can type more freely without bothering people. At work, I use the Ducky Realforce since it's less clicky and doesn't bother others in my office.

[rowdy]

I was going to say it sounds like you had already decided on browns, but that changed in the last few posts )

I personally would choose Topre.  My little exposure to browns indicates they are like gritty reds, not much tactile feedback (compared to, say, clears), and as light as reds, which I don't like much.

I also have an HHKB, which I love.

If you do end up getting a RealForce, look after it, wash your hands before using it, and it you really don't like it then you should be able to resell it for not much less than you paid for it and chalk the difference up to experience.

Also I've found that I prefer keycaps with good contrast between the keycap and the legend, mainly for typing passwords (which get longer and more complicated every year).  You can always replace the black on not-quite-so-black keycaps with black on white (if you can find a set).

[RexS]

You cannot use Youtube as a means for "sound" testing. Physical variables such as where the mic was placed to digital ones such as sound compression of the upload to youtube are all at play.

The only logical way to approach this  is a controlled test where the mic and keyboards are placed in the same location, and a sound test done whereby a dB value is produced - in turn you can then use this to place reference to real world objects.

This will never account for subjectivity and how someone perceives a certain type of sound - is the clack of an upstroke annoying? Is the thock of pressing a Topre key pleasant? This is independent from how loud a sound is.

I agree with all this about the typing tests, so... have another typing test!



At least here you can see how it was set up. It was recorded with a decent microphone (try it with headphones!) and there are 3 keyboards tested in the same manner (unsilenced Type Heaven variable weight, silenced Type Heaven 45g, silenced 104UB 45g). I'll note that while I actually very much like the sound of the silenced type heaven the ABS keys are not nearly as good as the PBT. But the delta from unsilenced to silenced is as pronounced between two Type Heavens as it is between two Realforce boards.

Also agree with the others regarding the black on black Realforce. In an office environment (with lights on) it is fine. If you were to go without the lights on (sunlight only, building has windows all the way around) the letters are difficult to see and in dim reading light the keys look blank.

I also picked up the Ducky 104UB-45S when MK.com started to stock them and its keys are amazing. I'd long considered the 104UB-DK which has the white/gray keys my end-game keyboard, but now that silencing is a must for me this new Ducky checks off more of the boxes. And I've grown to love the pure white keys. These things are lit up in the dark from only the backlight of the monitor!

And to round out the discussion regarding Topre vs Cherry, here's what happened for me: I liked reds, but not enough to pay the mechanical keyboard premium, and browns were okay too, but I settled on blues with an o-ring treatment for noise reduction. After only a weekend with MX blues I found out what hours browsing Fry's and playing with the switch tester had not reavealed: I'm not compatible with Cherry MX switches.

I bottom out when I type. Feels good. When I code I use a massive amounts of repetitive keypresses to move the cursor around the IDE. Each day after long hours coding I found myself dissatisfied with the keyboard. It wouldn't keep up. The cherry switch needs more key travel than I have muscle memory to re-open the switch for the next keystroke.

Life is a lot simpler when you don't have to consider Cherry MX.  Damn you, Novatouch!

[keyjay]

Thank you all for all this, again.

So, I ordered the Topre (RF?) 104U Silenced from Massdrop, in black on black. I figure it's the only way I'll really know if it is good enough for me to read the legends or not. If not, well, yes, I'll sell it and get one with actual contrast to the legends, which I'm sure is what I'll end up doing.

In that regard, well, I'll see how I like the variable weighting of the Massdrop 104U I ordered, at which time I can get an RF 104U Silenced in white from EK when they're back in stock in hopefully a few weeks (black on white and gray keycaps), or the Ducky Topre 104 Silenced 45g from MK (I spoke to them and they said when these few they have in stock are gone, they probably won't get any more, which isn't great for my game plan since I want to get three of the same once I choose what I really like, and I'm not a huge fan of the colors on that board anyway).

Or, is there a place where I can order PBT RF 104 keycaps with double-shot or dye-sub (I'm not clear on which term applies) quality of lettering that gives me other choices, like ideally white on black that's a pretty normal font? I guess that's not a fair question, though, because what I'm learning is that double-shot or dye-sub (which is it?) on PBT just doesn't allow white on black. So, what is my choice, then? Black on white keys, to end up looking like the Ducky 45g? I have read that black on gray is not so easy to read, either. That's if I can even find any such keycaps in the first place, that are the same quality as what would come with an RF board. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks again!

[keyjay]

Also... (in addition to my immediately preceding post with questions)...

A comment on the Massdrop site says their RF 104U Silenced has "6KRO, not 20KRO." Is the one from EK 20KRO? Is there any chance there's anything different about the board from Massdrop vs the RF 104U Silenced from EK?

By the way, the Massdrop version includes extra spacebars made of PBT, in four colors. That seems nice at first, except the colors are not my choice and, more importantly, I read that the reason RF ships them with ABS spacebars is that PBT is prone to shrinkage, which of course is more problematic with the long spacebar. So, how cool is it, really, to be putting a PBT spacebar on it?