Filco vs HHKB Gaming, Typing, etc.

[jedidove]

Right now I use a standard issue microsoft rubber dome membrane keyboard with media keys. For awhile I've wanted to get a better keyboard. At first I had considered the Das, but after reading about the transposition issues, and exploring a little more, I think I have decided that if that were the keyboard I wanted, a Filco would be a better choice. After realizing how little desk space I really have, I decided a tenkeyless design would probably be best. I also plan on getting a laptop soon, so a more compact design would be easier to lug around. However, I'm still pretty thrown as to what would be the best choice.

First let me discuss why I've come to consider the Filco and HHKB (Pro 2). Like I said, I started by wanting a Das. I heard that typing on the blue cherry's was addicting in a way comparable to popping bubble paper. Also, I was attracted to the blank design. I can type without looking at the keys, but I have a horrible habit for looking down. I have been getting better, but I want to kill it all together. Also, the blank keys just look kick ass, and I'd love to hear people who see it whine to me "How can you use that?" "That's so stupid" "Wah wah wah" just so I could laugh in their face, and rest assured knowing (probably) no one would be using it behind my back. As a gamer, the prospect of NKRO appealed to me.

Eventually, I ran into the transposition bug, and I found out that it really didn't have NKRO. This in combination with some of the opinions I found here (and the portability/desk space factor) led me to realize that if I wanted blue cherry's, a Filco Tenkeyless design would offer me everything the Das did, and then some. Feel free to argue this if you don't agree though.

Moving on, I also came to fancy the HHKB. Firstly, because the portability factor is even better. Also, due to this, I like the fact that every key is reachable, it just makes sense. I also heard many great things about the Topre switches. In a year or two I will start pursuing a degree in Computer Engineering, and eventually I'll be shooting for a PhD in the field. So, you can bet I'll be doing a lot of typing, and a lot of programming specifically. I keep hearing that the HHKB offers so much for programmers, etc. Right now, I'm working towards degrees in Math and Physics, and I've started to use Emacs for my LaTeX needs, so I'll only be getting more attached to it in the future. I've heard that the HHKB is great for Emacs too.

Ultimately though, I'm not sure how each of these keyboards will compare in the many applications that they would have to perform. Also, feel free to make any suggestions as to other keyboards that I should consider.

I know that the HHKB can't be beat in terms of portability. So I rather not hear an argument based on that. I also don't want to hear about the price factor. In the end, most my time will be spent sitting down using the keyboard, not paying for it or carrying it around. I don't want to sacrifice performance in this aspect for any reason.

Things to consider:

I will be typing a lot!: I'm a college student. Right now I have papers to write for gen-ed courses, as well as occasional science related and LaTeX typing needs. Just about the time I finish gen-ed related work, I will be going to an engineering school and probably programming my ass off. That will continue through a PhD program. How do the different switches compare for typing experience? Also, how big is the performance gain in coding with the HHKB layout?

I play games, particularly FPS. The most important thing here is how do blue cherry's (brown cherry's) and Topre's compare in the gaming department? Also, there is the issue of NKRO. In FPS, there are only a handful of keys that are ever pressed simultaneously or near simultaneously, so at first it might seem as if its not necessary. Though it would be exceptionally rare to press 6+ keys at the same time, it is completely common to press "AWE" at the same time (and other near WASD combos). I know some non-NKRO boards have issues with inputting 3 keys when those keys are certain combos. I'd like to hear about how the HHKB performs here. Do they make a PS2 capable HHKB (i.e. an NKRO one)?

Also, what's up with the dark gray HHKB on elitekeyboards? Where's black?

Thanks in advance. I have never owned a mechanical keyboard and there's no where around here to test them out so I'm really relying on online research/opinions.


TLDR: I game, I type, I program. For our purposes lets assume I do all three equally, and all three a lot. Rant about blue cherry's (or brown if you want to argue that) and Topre's. Rant about Filco Tenkeyless and HHKB Pro 2. Compare, contrast, talk a little about NKRO, a little about the HHKB layout, but focus on the switches and the applications.

[rdjack21]

Simple get them both, one for work and one for play, problem solved.

[jedidove]

Simple get them both, one for work and one for play, problem solved.

lol, I'm interested in single keyboard answers. I should have specified

EDIT: I could have included the Realforce Tenkeyless for consideration, but I feel like If Topre is the way to go, then I would be better off with an HHKB since I actually see the layout as a plus. As always, feel free to argue otherwise.

[o2dazone]

Also, how big is the performance gain in coding with the HHKB layout?

Drastically. Weaning yourself off the numpad and into the top row will increase your typing, and the fact of never having to leave the homerow is even better (well...almost never). This really came into perspective when I realized Vi had shortcuts on the home row to navigate through documents, even as simple as up and down arrow hotkeys. Page Up/Page Down are also much closer, which further increase how quickly you get to the top and bottom of documents or pages.

On the flipside, I won't lie. I type faster with a short travel keyswitch. I type faster on the built in Macbook Pro keyboard than I do on the HHKB. I do make less typing errors on my HHKB, so I believe that evens it out. Most of the development I do is in Javascript, HTML and CSS in Textmate and Vi at times. YMMV depending on the application or language/markup you develop in.

Don't make a judgment on how long it'll take you to adjust to the layout. Most things are all the same. You'll learn just about everything different in two weeks, and arrow keys felt natural in about a month.

Gaming-wise I really liked brown cherries. While I've adapted to playing games on the HHKB, it's definitive collapse is almost distracting. This is with RPG's, RTS's and FPS's. I eventually got used to playing games with the Happy Hacking, but if I played enough to be competitive, I'd probably keep a brown or black cherry board around just for that.

This is coming from a 7 months, two HHKB owner. I use one over 10 hours a day, just about every day.

[1839cc]

Consider longevity too.

I've heard rumors that Topres can wear out kinda fast with heavy use. Hopefully they're wrong though.....

[Rajagra]

After realizing how little desk space I really have

The importance of this is not to be underestimated. I despise using a full-size keyboard now. Even a tenkeyless board seems oversized after having a HHKB on the desk. As far as I'm concerned, the HHKB physical design is THE correct form factor for a (non-ergo specific) keyboard. Why have something bigger? There is no reason. The HHKB isn't perfect - I don't like the choice of arrow key positions personally, although they can be adapted to. But if you want the smallest, yet still easy to use, keyboard, the HHKB is the only game in town. There are equally small keyboards, but they cram lots of extra physical keys into the space, in often bizarre places, so they are a nightmare to touch type on.

I was attracted to the blank design. ...
Also, what's up with the dark gray HHKB on elitekeyboards? Where's black?

Yes, blank keys are a great way to break the bad habit of glancing at the keyboard. But they aren't great for gaming. Remember one hand will be on the mouse, and sometimes you will have to hit keys not under your left hand. Black on dark grey keycaps sound like a good compromise, but mine (Realforce 87U) may as well be black on black with my desktop lighting.

Also, there is the issue of NKRO.

The advantage of NKRO is not that you can hold down twenty or more keys at once. It is that you can hold down ANY three keys. Or ANY four keys. ANY five keys. And so on. USB limits you to any six keys *plus modifiers* (Control, Shift, Alt). That is not a real liability. But you still want the keyboard to have NKRO internally. Any keyboard without NKRO will fail with some combinations of three keys. Now that IS a liability.

focus on the switches and the applications.

Topre switches work great and feel great. May not be the fastest, but it's the old "choose any two of three" situation. Cherry brown switches also feel great once you are used to them, but I think Topres have the edge overall. I doubt there's any difference in speed. For speed, scissor switches are probably hard to beat, but their short travel could ultimately cause discomfort or RSI with heavy use.

[jedidove]

Just a note on the NKRO: I don't ever expect to need more than 6 key rollover. In fact I don't expect to need more than 5 key rollover, because my left hand only has five fingers! Moreover, usually some of those keys will be modifiers (ctrl for crouch, etc.) But, I do want all combinations less than that to work. Does the HHKB truly hit the usb limit? Or will it fail on some three letter combos? If it does truly hit the limit, then what would happen if you used a PS/2 adapter? Should the capacitive setup allow more than 6KRO?

As for the blank keys, gaming is the least of my concerns there. I don't think I ever look down when I game. I almost exclusively use voice chat, and I can hit every button I need to without looking. Actually, I would hope I never had to look down while gaming, if anything that's the one application where it matters most to always keep your eyes on the screen.

[PRISONER 24601]

In the second week of my G80, I put about 25,000 words on the thing. Finals week, baby! It's pretty comfortable, but I'm jonesin for an ergo cherry board.

[Rajagra]

Does the HHKB truly hit the usb limit? Or will it fail on some three letter combos? If it does truly hit the limit, then what would happen if you used a PS/2 adapter?

I think it's working to the USB limit.

I only say 'think' because I just noticed something odd while using Aqua's Keytest. If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:


Unplugging/replugging the keyboard fixes it.
Restarting Aqua's Keytest doesn't fix it.
I get the same thing using a HHKB Pro, a Realforce 87U, or a DASIII.
I get the same thing on my XP or my Vista machine.
I get the same thing going through my USB switch or plugged directly into the PC.

My conclusion is that the HHKB is good, but there is a flaw in the USB HID spec, or Windows' version of it.

EDIT> I get the same problem using this test, as well as Aqua's one.

I know this isn't major, but it seems the oft-quoted "six keys plus modifiers" capability for USB cannot be relied on.

[msiegel]

If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:

i wonder if that's an anomaly in the keyboard's blocking algorithm.

on boards that don't have a diode for each key, software in the keyboard controller has to prevent certain nearby two-key combinations from spuriously registering as a third key.

this effect sounds a lot like the normal blocking process... but in reverse.

[Rajagra]

i wonder if that's an anomaly in the keyboard's blocking algorithm.

I repeated the test on three keyboards, one of which uses diodes (DAS) the other two are capacitive (HHKB/Realforce) which reportedly are immune to key ghosting. All showed identical results, strongly suggesting the problem lies elsewhere.

[AndrewZorn]

i dont see why people say the HHKB is bad for gaming
F keys can be handy though, i guess, despite what i used to say about them
im about to break the filco back out, i started eve online and F keys are used for weapons... then again might just remap all the crazy hotkeys anyway.

[alpslover]

I only say 'think' because I just noticed something odd while using Aqua's Keytest. If I plug in the keyboard and press/hold keys in this order:
Ctrl Alt Shift Z A Q S W E everything works normally.
But if I repeat the test, as soon as I hit the S, W and E appear by themselves. i.e. W & E are not pressed, but the PC thinks they are:

EDIT> I get the same problem using this test, as well as Aqua's one.

I know this isn't major, but it seems the oft-quoted "six keys plus modifiers" capability for USB cannot be relied on.

i haven't tried the aqua test, but the problem with the web-based rollover test is that the moment you hit a key combination like alt-f (which opens the file menu in the browser), it causes all sorts of problems with subsequent key recognition until you reload the page.

this isn't unique to usb as the problem is present even with ps/2 keyboards.

[alpslover]

i redid the test with a usb keyboard and was able to reproduce raj's problem.  and in fact, if i redid the sequence with a different key pressed instead of the 's', the 'we' would still come out automatically after that key.

[timw4mail]

Doesn't seem like an idea thing, but for most uses, I doubt you would ever see this actually happen using the keyboard.

[jedidove]

That test is weird. No W & E ghosting on a Filco though when I replicate the test.

Try doing it without the ALT - nobody uses ALT in FPS gaming.  A SHFT/CTRL combo though is common.

Speak for yourself. I actually use ALT all the time lol. I have it bound to my second weapon slot. I play a lot of spy in tf2 so I have knife on mouse scroll up, revolver on scroll down, and sapper on ALT. In tf2 ALT is a very convenient button for weapon switch. In additon to the scroll binds, it allows you to switch without moving off WASD/Crtl. Though I'll probably replace it with scroll left or right when I get my G9x. That said, I suspect the ALT issue is more an issue with the programs testing it. Just playing devil's advocate here since I had the chance

Does anyone else have experience gaming with Browns, Blues, or Topre's (preferably 2, or even better, all 3)?

[alpslover]

Does anyone else have experience gaming with Browns, Blues, or Topre's (preferably 2, or even better, all 3)?

yes, i prefer blues over topres over browns.

[jedidove]

yes, i prefer blues over topres over browns.

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

Keep the opinions coming. I'm less worried about the NKRO unless there is some 2-3 key combo near WASD that fails. If the 6key works than I'll be happy. I've used default domes up until now without any issue, so I doubt it will be a big deal. Feel free to keep talking about the NKRO issue if you really think there is a big difference in FPS, but for the most part I'm interested in key comparison right now. Other gimmicks make a difference, but when it comes down to it, I think the choice of switch is going to be the first thing I should be concerned with.

EDIT: Actually, I think the count is 2 for typing with topres.

[AndrewZorn]

but i have only used brown and topre

[digi]

I've tried the blacks, they are way too stiff for me.

Get the Filco 87 keyboard with brown cherries and a comfortable wrist bad, you can thank me later. =]

[ricercar]

Cherry Reds are the best.

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

[alpslover]

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

i think the best advice (though perhaps not the most economical) is to give the different keyswitches a try and see what works best for you.

i personally prefer click tactile switches for everything.  all of the keyboards i use for typing have click tactile switches, and i have not found game playing to be superior with non-clicky switch keyboards, so there's no reason for me to have a separate keyboard for gaming.  for me, the brown cherries lose to the topres because the topres are more tactile and are smoother.

[timw4mail]

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

Black switches with brown springs.

[itlnstln]

Remind us; home made reds are brown switches with black springs?

Other way.  Black switches with brown springs.

[alpslover]

Keep the opinions coming. I'm less worried about the NKRO unless there is some 2-3 key combo near WASD that fails. If the 6key works than I'll be happy. I've used default domes up until now without any issue, so I doubt it will be a big deal.

the problem with a non-nkro (or non-6kro usb) keyboard is that they don't all use the same matrices, and who knows what key combinations you may need to use in the future.  so while you may not have had any problems with the key combos on the rubber domes you use now, it would suck to shell out good money for a 'premium' non-nkro keyboard that won't recognize your key combos due to the use of a different matrix or because you're using different key combinations which you didn't before.  the nkro (or 6kro for usb) is a guarantee that no key combinations will ever block.

[timw4mail]

the problem with a non-nkro (or non-6kro usb) keyboard is that they don't all use the same matrices, and who knows what key combinations you may need to use in the future.  so while you may not have had any problems with the key combos on the rubber domes you use now, it would suck to shell out good money for a 'premium' non-nkro keyboard that won't recognize your key combos due to the use of a different matrix or because you're using different key combinations which you didn't before.  the nkro (or 6kro for usb) is a guarantee that no key combinations will ever block.

While this is true, generally there isn't a very large possibility of this happening, even with non-nkro keyboards.

[ch_123]

Okay so that makes it 1 vote for browns on gaming, 1 vote for blues on gaming, and 1 vote for topres on typing. I'm tempted to make a poll here, but that wouldn't reflect how much experience those opinions are based in.

My blue Cherry keyboard is my nominal 'gaming' keyboard, but at this it is not entirely ideal. There's a particular problem with the blue switches - when you release a key, it doesn't really 'unclick' like other switches, so you have no real sense of when you've released it. This feels a bit weird for things where you need to press a key several times (as opposed to holding down) in rapid succession.

I've never tried the Browns or Topres, but from what I hear, this problem is not applicable to them as they have less going on during the keypress. One thing I note is that Topres are pretty much consistently ranked higher than Browns by those who have experience with both. If you do your programming/LaTeX'ing in a command line editor like Vim or Emacs, I think the HHKB is an even clearer choice (i've even modded the layout on my laptop keyboard to have some HHKB like features)

Can someone confirm this for me - I was under the impression HHKB has NKRO in so far as USB allows due to it's capacitive nature... Does this mean that it can take any 6 key presses or is there any ghosting?

[1839cc]

Browns are very nice, so if Topres are even better (I have not tried them) get the HHKB Pro 2.

[alpslover]

My blue Cherry keyboard is my nominal 'gaming' keyboard, but at this it is not entirely ideal. There's a particular problem with the blue switches - when you release a key, it doesn't really 'unclick' like other switches, so you have no real sense of when you've released it. This feels a bit weird for things where you need to press a key several times (as opposed to holding down) in rapid succession.

blue cherries don't really 'click' on the upstroke the way they click on the downstroke, however there is a subtle upstroke bump very similar to the browns.

at any rate, this only really matters if the way you hit keys as quickly as possible is by 'finessing' them around the actuation point.  if you bottom and top out the keys instead (i do), it doesn't matter.

I've never tried the Browns or Topres, but from what I hear, this problem is not applicable to them as they have less going on during the keypress.

again, it really depends on how exactly you're hitting the keys.  if you do full strokes, they're no better or worse than the blues.

in my own testing, my 'fast repeated key hitting' speed is pretty much the same across many different switch types.

[hacfed]

I know the OP doesn't want to hear this, but for the benefit of anyone else reading: You really don't know until you try; get one of everything where possible.

Now, for the OP, if in doubt, get a Topre board. My vote goes for the HHKB Pro 2. Since getting one, I find myself trying to use the HHKB layout no matter what keyboard I'm on.. leading to some interesting results. I'm not at the stage where I need to buy another one for work/travel, but I don't think it'll be too long before I do so. HHKBs really do increase productivity, and the greatest advantage is to be found, strangely, in its ergonomics. With it you can have your pointing device so much closer to the board. Now you can centre your input devices to your display(s) and benefit from a more relaxed posture. For anyone who sits at a computer for most of the day, this is a real boon.

Downside? The cursor keys, pgup/pgdn and home/end keys take a fair bit of getting used to, and when typing passwords I have the habit of pecking, and when I switch from touch typing to pecking I get it all wrong!

How to make the perfect HHKB Pro 3? Map the cursor keys to Fn + WASD. That's a no brainer right there imho! Map pgup/pgdn to current up/down cursor keys and make home the left key and end the right key (with Fn, obviously). Now, another cool thing would be USB 2.0 and an internal port for a flash drive (microSD with a teensy adaptor would be a good choice). That way you could carry your board and your documents/data all in one device. Win.

Just my 2c, but basically the HHKB Pro 2 is the best keyboard I have ever tried and it was worth every penny. Oh - I didn't /quite/ fully explain the WHY, but once you get one, it becomes obvious

[Rajagra]

How to make the perfect HHKB Pro 3? Map the cursor keys to Fn + WASD. That's a no brainer right there imho!

Agreed. This came to me in a dream:


But the current version would be fine if it was your first good keyboard, you stuck to it, and it became a natural layout for you. I almost wish it was the only board I had, so I could be that way. For that reason alone I think anyone who is considering one should buy it as their first choice before they get spoilt with options. It is easier to change from a HHKB to standard boards than the other way round.

[AndrewZorn]

if you are trying to get away with convention in favor of superiority, ESDF (or IJKL) would be even better.

other parts of that fake layout are a bit much though.  no need for right control, and the left <> should just be a function key anyway.

[Rajagra]

We need to start a proper petition for the HHKB 3 to be fully programmable.

[hacfed]

Hmm. I retract my previous statement. The part about WASD, anyway. Here's why: ESDF /is/ better, and if the left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside, we have the most comfortable arrangement.

If you have an HHKB, place your fingers over ESDF and imagine the right-hand side of the left shift is an Fn key.

Like a glove!

Forget the right-hand control key - agreed; a waste.

Ditch the right-hand Fn! Full-size right hand shift is where it's at. I've gotten used to the current arrangement with ease, but for ten years I've been using right shift exclusively and pressing it with my pinky where the Fn button is..

Anyway, no mass produced keyboard will ever be perfect I guess.

[AndrewZorn]

left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside

no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
no

[hacfed]

Yeah way! Srs.

[Rajagra]

Hmm. I retract my previous statement. The part about WASD, anyway. Here's why: ESDF /is/ better, and if the left shift was split into two keys: shift on the outside and Fn on the inside, we have the most comfortable arrangement.

That works. I did use AutoHotkey to make a similar setup using ESDF, but found that if I used CapsLock as a Fn key it wasn't comfortable. WASD though, was perfect.

ISO boards have an extra key in just the spot you mention. Shame the U.S./ANSI boards don't.

[hacfed]

@GGLucas: I don't know how you do it. I had 2 monitors before and craved 3. Now I have 3 I think I have reached the optimal amount. Alt+Tab and <>+Tab work wonders for me. Instead of dedicating screens like 1 code, 2 research, 3 non-productive I dedicate desktops that way. Shortcuts like <>+1, <>+2 allow me to jump directly to desktops, too, so I find that to be a great way to navigate. I'm the sort of person who hates tiling though and always has one window per screen, maximised. You have a very nice setup and configuration, but as others have more eloquently stated, "it just looks too busy to be efficient". Don't get me wrong, I'm chuffed that it works for you.. I just don't think I could handle it. On a technical note, what kind of graphics card/s do you have to run that? Which buses?

[itlnstln]

That wouldn't work well for me.  I use the left Shift for caps exclusively, and I press the right edge of that key.  Because of my hand size, let alone muscle memory, it would be uncomfortable to reach to the left side of the key for a Shift function.

[AndrewZorn]

Loser

[hacfed]

I have always used right shift for caps, exclusively, because I'm in the UK and the ISO layout as we all know has large right shift, smaller left shift and pipe/backslash inbetween Z and left shift. It seemed to make sense to me. I think this should explain my preference for effectively swapping the HHKB2's right shift and Fn arrangement with the left shift. Initially I thought the moving of the pipe to the top right of the board would be most annoying but instead the return and backspace keys are the two I muddle up most often. Again, my downfall is pecking when I should be touch typing. Now that I think of it, the HHKB3 should have a trackpoint to eliminate all the ****footing around with a separate pointing device

[hacfed]

And... and... I never use right alt or right <>. What if they merged into a single key: backspace. Then backspace could be merged with return and then I'd have a big oul proper ISO-style return key I could mash! Yay!

[ch_123]

Stick with the US enter. It takes a while to get used to it, but it's a much more elegant solution once you get used to it (it's on the home row so you dont have to reach over to hit it like an ISO enter)

[hacfed]

Of course it's better in that regard. My trouble is that my muscle memory expects to find more enter key where the backspace is (on HHKB2). For all the nips and tucks I'm suggesting.. the HHKB2 is pretty strong. I just can't help but think of ways to improve it. Honestly, I don't think I've ever pressed the right alt or meta yet. I'd have a larger enter and a backspace in place of those two keys any day.

[Korbin]

Consider longevity too.

I've heard rumors that Topres can wear out kinda fast with heavy use. Hopefully they're wrong though.....

Do you actually know someone that has worn one out (not rumors)?  I ask because there was a thread a long time ago about this very topic with topre switches and no geekhacker ever heard of it happening. I would be interested to know what "heavy" use is and how long it took.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5832

[1839cc]

Do you actually know someone that has worn one out (not rumors)?

I do not.

[jedidove]

I'm not sure Topre switches feel that much better.  At least not twice the cost better.  Browns should be better for gaming because they are springier.

Really though - it's down to where the OP is more concerned about an optimal programming experience and an education that will last him a lifetime...or better gaming rankings.

Wait - don't answer that!

lol! Though arguably, its the coder in the end that makes the difference. Nevertheless, the obvious benefits of the HHKB are clear. However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming. Now if it's a choice between a keyboard that is good for both and one that is great for one but terrible for the other, I can't say I'm going to spring for the latter right away. Down the road as my education furthers, aka I start coding like hell and gaming very little (read PhD)? Sure. But right away, it would make more sense to get the browns since I'm not spending a crap load of time coding in Physics or Math (which I will be continuing for the next 2 years) yet I do game quite a bit.

On the other hand, if the topre's compare favorably for gaming, then I think the choice is obvious after considering the added mobility (and of course the extra brownie points in layout benefits). I live at my gf's, commute to school, and visit "home" every other day. Soon I'll have a laptop that I'll probably be doing all my work and gaming on and lugging around all these places on a daily basis. So, having a small keyboard would be "nice", but not at the risk of being terrible for my first/close second use for it for the next 2 years.

[alpslover]

However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming.

different people have different (and sometimes very strong) preferences for certain switches.  just because some people dislike a certain switch doesn't mean you will.

try them and decide for yourself.

[microsoft windows]

There are many people who prefer the full layout for gaming.

[rdjack21]

lol! Though arguably, its the coder in the end that makes the difference. Nevertheless, the obvious benefits of the HHKB are clear. However, I have heard (on these very forums!) that the topre's are horrible for gaming. Now if it's a choice between a keyboard that is good for both and one that is great for one but terrible for the other, I can't say I'm going to spring for the latter right away. Down the road as my education furthers, aka I start coding like hell and gaming very little (read PhD)? Sure. But right away, it would make more sense to get the browns since I'm not spending a crap load of time coding in Physics or Math (which I will be continuing for the next 2 years) yet I do game quite a bit.

On the other hand, if the topre's compare favorably for gaming, then I think the choice is obvious after considering the added mobility (and of course the extra brownie points in layout benefits). I live at my gf's, commute to school, and visit "home" every other day. Soon I'll have a laptop that I'll probably be doing all my work and gaming on and lugging around all these places on a daily basis. So, having a small keyboard would be "nice", but not at the risk of being terrible for my first/close second use for it for the next 2 years.

Just to add my little 2 cents worth and I will do it with a picture

Namco CSNEO (Counter Strike NEO) Realforce 87U OEM board:

and in action:

and the board itself:


So yes some find the Topre switches good for gaming. Actually from what I've read the 30g boards are what the Japanese use for gaming verses the 45g in the HHKB Pro but that should not matter that much. You will also note that this particular board has PS/2 connection instead of USB so has full N key roll over verses the 6 key limit on USB.