Author Topic: What is the most optimized layout recently?  (Read 40021 times)

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Offline Phenix

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 05:06:50 »
sometimes it is simply not allowed to plug in any hardware "therecould be malware ;D

With HDDs I can understand, but keyboards..
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Offline algernon

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 05:15:08 »
sometimes it is simply not allowed to plug in any hardware "therecould be malware ;D

With HDDs I can understand, but keyboards..

See here. Any USB device can be made malicious. A keyboard could also have firmware that, when plugged into certain boxes, behaves differently, and collects data about the box, which the owner can later extract. Just by looking at it, you can't tell what is in the keyboard. There may be an audio recording device in the case, for all we know.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 13 April 2016, 05:16:20 »
sometimes it is simply not allowed to plug in any hardware "therecould be malware ;D

With HDDs I can understand, but keyboards..

See here. Any USB device can be made malicious. A keyboard could also have firmware that, when plugged into certain boxes, behaves differently, and collects data about the box, which the owner can later extract. Just by looking at it, you can't tell what is in the keyboard. There may be an audio recording device in the case, for all we know.

Good to know!
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Offline Gonadium

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 21 April 2016, 12:23:38 »
So I have done something of an analysis on keyboard layouts - check my post https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81503.0

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 22 April 2016, 09:45:34 »
So I take a leap into the colemak world and my pinky stops hurting and I feel that I type more comfortable on them except the - keys.
week 2 and in 50wpm  8)

Offline Phenix

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 22 April 2016, 18:26:13 »
another question:
Whats the best way to bring adNW to an ergodox? (just drop the into the 1.5u column or second layer..)? Has anyone experience?
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Offline algernon

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 23 April 2016, 02:31:36 »
another question:
Whats the best way to bring adNW to an ergodox? (just drop the into the 1.5u column or second layer..)? Has anyone experience?

Here is one example.

Offline Karura

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #57 on: Sat, 23 April 2016, 02:34:21 »
75% is definitely the best one out there.

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 23 April 2016, 13:03:58 »
75% is definitely the best one out there.
Did you post this in the wrong thread by accident?
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2016, 15:09:13 by jacobolus »

Offline Karura

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What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #59 on: Sat, 23 April 2016, 18:12:42 »
75% is definitely the best one out there.
Did you post this in the wrong thread by accident?

Not at all, allow me to elaborate.

I've been using QWERTY with custom key mapped keys on my 75%, taking a page from the HHKB layout with the Capslock = Ctrl, \| = Backspace, Backspace = \|, as well as my right control key as a Fn layer key.


It's a bit difficult to explain but this has been the fastest setup I've ever used to navigate around and edit in word documents, as well as text files when I'm coding.

I have my Fn layer's WASD bound to arrow keys, as well as RTYFGH bound to the nav cluster (Ins, Home, PgUp, etc), and finally the Fn + Backspace key bound to Del.

How I edit word documents now is that by holding down the right Control key (FN) with my thumb, I use my left hand on WASD to move around, and my right index finger on \| (Backspace) and right middle finger on Backspace (Del) to quickly edit documents.

It's a very simple setup but hard to explain without showing it in person and I've found it to be the most efficient and ergonomic way for me to leisurely edit docs. Thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2016, 18:20:13 by Karura »

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #60 on: Sat, 23 April 2016, 19:51:03 »
I've been using QWERTY with custom key mapped keys on my 75%, taking a page from the HHKB layout with the Capslock = Ctrl, \| = Backspace, Backspace = \|, as well as my right control key as a Fn layer key. [...] How I edit word documents now is that by holding down the right Control key (FN) with my thumb, I use my left hand on WASD to move around, and my right index finger on \| (Backspace) and right middle finger on Backspace (Del) to quickly edit documents.

[...  definitely the best one out there]
Seems like you have a setup you like.  :thumb:

Theres absolutely no way that the standard keyboard layout (QWERTY/etc.), even with a bit of supplementation, is going to be the best for anything.

For English writing, there are many better alternatives for logical letter layout: Dvorak, Malt, Colemak, AdNW, etc. etc., take your pick, or make something new.

For programming, at the very least its essential to move common symbols off of the shifted number row, where theyre a slow pain to reach, e.g. by putting them on a shifted layer on the home row. That is, at least all of `~!@#$%^&*()-_+=]}\| should be moved elsewhere. The best specific place to move them all depends a bit on the programming language. (I also like adding convenient key bindings for greek letters, a variety of mathematical symbols, other types of punctuation, and so on, though these arent strictly necessary in the ASCII-centric programming world.)

For basic navigation and editing, the default keybindings in e.g. emacs (or dozens of alternative arrangements I can think of) are better than your proposed holding down of right fn + use of WASD with the left hand and backslash and forward delete keys for deleting. The WASD part is okay if a bit contrived, but the forward/backward delete would be much easier if moved to the home row, e.g. using J and K keys, or adopting emacs ctrl-H and ctrl-D. Your method requires moving your left hand entirely off the home row and twisting your wrist to hold the Fn key with your thumb while reaching your fingers up and to the left. This is both uncomfortable and slow for most people.

Its fine if your delete setup works for you, but I wouldnt recommend it for a general user.  Any optimal layout is going to be built around a more rigorously defined system. I personally recommend using the same letter keys for both navigation and delete keys (the best definition for delete up and delete down are up for question, but theyre pretty useful, along with commands to delete to the beginning/end of a line, delete to beginning/end of a paragraph, or delete up/down by whole pages), on separate shifted layers, but there are other alternatives. Vim keyboard control for navigation and editing are of course several steps beyond any of these basic key bindings.

As for physical keyboard layout, standard row stagger / QWERTY is pretty bad. At the very least, splitting and separating or tenting and rotating the two halves of the keyboard makes for a big improvement. Adding a large number of extra thumb keys is also really nice. A "75%" doesnt really solve any of the fundamental problems with the 19th century typewriter layout.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2016, 19:53:10 by jacobolus »

Offline instinctive

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 12 May 2016, 18:12:26 »
my personal layout (optimized for Dutch, but also OK for English):

buy,* qkvlfj
saeio gdtnrw
z**.ij pcmhx


I nicknamed this [English] layout DvorMax:
kyu.* zlmdpv
rieao hnstcw
x?:,/ jqfgb

I notice there are quite a few changes to your personal layout since Nordsee! which you created at the same time as DvorMax. Any changes you would recommend for DvorMax?

Offline PieterGen

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 16 May 2016, 16:52:59 »
I notice there are quite a few changes to your personal layout since Nordsee! which you created at the same time as DvorMax. Any changes you would recommend for DvorMax?

Hi instinctive ! Sorry I missed this post, I've been very busy lately. Your questions: yes I did change a few things. I found I wanted even more alternation. I think the first one I posted was

y.u, wclhqz
rieao gdtnsk
xj vpmbf 


Which is indeed different from the final one:
buy,* qkvlfj
saeio gdtnrw
z**.ij pcmhx


I learned the old one during a holiday - loved it, still do. But....
1- my right pinky was doing too much - the K is much used in Dutch. Also I hated the right pinky combinations, like SF and FS
2- the left hand. Words like ARE (an R between two vowels) are common in Dutch. So there were a lot of 'see saw' movements on the left hand
3- rieao gives rolls in words like dRIE that I did not like - three letters on a row, no thanks.
4- alternation was I believe 66%. Sometimes there were longer clusters, words like tREUREn, RIAntERE etcetera. I wanted more alternation.
5- I liked the idea of a separate key for the Dutch letter ij - as on old typewriters. No computer does this, although there is a Unicode sign for it. Everyone uses two letters,  i + j  but I am a romantic  :D

So, after lots of different versions I came up with the seaio version. It has more alternation (70%), less 'see saw' movements. It makes (like rieao) the middle finger work harder than the index, because my middle fingers are the longest & strongest.  It's better for Dutch but slightly worse for English.
 
I could come up with a DvorMax version in that same vein! May see the next days if I can brew a layout like that for 100% English .

Offline jgeeliss

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 13 October 2023, 08:06:13 »
Hi,

I know it's an old post, but do you happen to also have an ADNW layout that is fit for Dutch, but that fits on 30 keys?
I'm looking at generating one with the adnw program, but the configuration is daunting :)
Or if you could share your config files for Dutch that would be great as well!

thanks
Jesse

Offline luqtas

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #64 on: Mon, 04 March 2024, 09:20:35 »
Hi,

I know it's an old post, but do you happen to also have an ADNW layout that is fit for Dutch, but that fits on 30 keys?
I'm looking at generating one with the adnw program, but the configuration is daunting :)
Or if you could share your config files for Dutch that would be great as well!

thanks
Jesse

if you know Python, i think the best framework for creating layouts comes from: https://engram.dev/

Offline mathisart

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Re: What is the most optimized layout recently?
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 10 May 2024, 09:27:06 »
I use QGMLWB, which I understand to be somewhat optimized, but I don't know how much. (I'm happier with it than with QWERTY. It's hard to learn a new layout though.)
I suspect there's better ones, but I don't know how much better they may be.