Author Topic: Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!  (Read 116141 times)

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Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #150 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 13:58:30 »
It's been disassembled since late fall :( but will be back in action April/May when I'm not in/out of town so much. I took it apart (this time) for accurate chair mount sizing, hard wire conversion PS/2 to USB, and hard wire a 4 port USB hub rather than just have it plugged in (lot of work for very, VERY little return).

The combo of the tiny scrollball and the trackpoint is very unique, and I struggled for a long time before biting the bullet and just doing it (but it works SUPER well!). I later noted there is a way to move the cursor with the trackpoint, but screen scroll while holding down a key while using the trackpoint. At the moment I've forgotten what that is and I may not have that item noted in this article. I should find the info and post it...anyone using a trackpoint will love it, very useful and makes sense.

I can make a video, that would be fun and inspiring :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #151 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 14:13:22 »
Wireless Kinesis info!!!

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDAAb3nLuHo

http://d.hatena.ne.jp/odawara/searchdiary?word=kinesis
GOOGLE TRANSLATE indicates it is not a clean, working BT, but partial:
I've seen lend a Bluetooth keyboard Bluetooth keyboard-Kinesis continued [electronic tools] -
A specification Nde bogus key is connected only 12,345 Well, pardon Tsukkomi.
I just re-wired Bluetooth keyboard was decomposed to buy the other day. If this remains, causing it to 49 key mini keyboard is the same as the number of keys, and not really a practical way.
It is better fun that can be entered into the Kinesis Well iOS in the demo.

Uberben (a quiet Geekhacker) is a part of this:
http://skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Custom_bluetooth_keyboard
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 February 2012, 14:35:31 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #152 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 12:28:14 »
INTERESTING POSSIBILITY:
A couple statements from emails with Uberben, and a few notes on his website and this cream has risen to the top....
From website:
"The Kinesis Advantages was found to natively support PS/2 output. This was tested using the PS/2 cable from a Kinesis Essential 132 (the 132 was also found to be capable of outputting USB using the Kinesis Advantages USB cable/board)."

QUESTIONS:
1 - I noticed some of my older AT-PS/2 main pcbs are virtually identical to my newer USB main pcbs. Are all Kinesis main pcbs AT-PS/2 native?
2 - On USB keyboards there is a second pcb with the multiple USB ports on in...is this just a PS/2>USB converter?
3 - Where is the difference made of PS/S verses USB on a board...is it programming or hardware?

Some of this can be checked out fairly easily.

I don't know what happens internally when a PS/2 board uses a USB converter. Passive or active. I'm not knowledgable in these areas :(
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 12:35:17 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #153 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 12:33:01 »
I suspected the same for some time now, my Classic's PCB has something like "cut for USB" printed on it, anyway the LF's PCB looks identical. To me it looks like the USB hub thingy of the Advantage is what does the PS2/USB conversion. Hmm, maybe that's what Kinesis ment when they told dzd that the next gen Advantage will have new electronics; they will likely go native USB!
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 12:36:46 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #154 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 12:42:17 »
If so, then probably the only difference would be the firmware versions, and whatever that affects.

I assume that if it is a PS/2>USB converter...that it is "ACTIVE" verses passive???

I have several Pi Engineering Y-mouse dual PS/2>USB adapters (expensive). They actually allow you to program a couple switches. So maybe one of these wired into a PS/2 Kinesis effectively makes it equal to an Advantage (other than firmware issues). Then again, maybe ANY 'active' converter makes an older model equal to an Advantage? (ie: Blue Cube, Belkin....see Ripsters awesome wiki...I contributed the Y-mouse info).

Is it possible to 'flash' newer firmware from an Advantage to an older model?

EDIT-
Sooo...possibly/possibly not future native USB...what is the real difference? I've read a few issues with USB 3.0....maybe converting PS/2 doesn't work to well with it?

Native/non-native...what is the real difference? Maybe I just need to move on and not concern myself with such things. I wish I knew more :(  I'm just curious if pre-Advantage models deep down in their little pre-USB hearts, are really just Advantage models waiting to be born.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 13:05:15 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #155 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 13:20:10 »
It's pretty obvious it's an active (powered) converter with chips and whatnot. Passive converters are those purple dongles that only rewire stuff around, no?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41720[/ATTACH]

What do you know, I can read PI ENGINEERING in the right hand side of that little PCB !
Hmm, instead of using a bluecube, I should ask Kinesis if I can order that thing to convert my Classic to an Advantage...

EDIT: By native vs non-native USB I refer to the controller. It's better and simpler for a controller to talk USB directly, rather than talk PS/2 and have another component doing the PS/2->USB conversion. Just like it's better to use a drill with a chuck, rather than an impact driver with a chuck on a hex shark adapter if all you want to do is drill.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 February 2012, 13:32:40 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #156 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 13:31:56 »
Active, passive, yes different, but if they accomplish the same exact result, what's the diff, and why should it matter? Kinesis refers the Pi Engineering Y-mouse as 'THE' PS/2>USB converter to use. Since you can program a couple keys with it, it may even be an upgraded version of what's in the Kinesis keyboard.
 
If Kinesis says 'yes' to adding the usb pcb, then I believe the only remaining issue is firmware. And what's THAT all about?

I've got $200 to spend on a 3 hour lunch for someone to explain a keyboards electronics from input to output. Money well spent.

Curiosity kills a hell of a lot more than just cats.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #157 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 15:43:47 »
Thanks for the shoutout, IN. My reasoning for wanting to go with native USB and Bluetooth is to avoid any glitches in the conversion process. I use a cheap MonoPrice PS/2 adapter with my Kinesis. It usually works well, but occasionally drops keys. The speaker clicks, but the signal is not sent.

Regarding the "cut here for USB" note on the PCB, I seem to recall both the advantage and my essential having that note and neither one having it cut. I'd have to double check though as that was a few months ago.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #158 on: Sat, 25 February 2012, 20:52:54 »
So PS/2>USB converters may or may not work well? Quality is not guaranteed. Obviously an active converter should hopefully work better than a passive. I guess now the Advantage Kinesis just has a built-in active converter. I think you can achieve the same result with a Y-Mouse according to Kinesis and Pi Engineering.

Facinating.

From the wiki:

VendorID: 05f3 (PI Engineering, Inc.)
ProductID: 0203

PI Industries Y-Mouse PS/2 to USB adapter

- Works with 1990 1391401.
- Claims to support two keyboards, two mice, or one-of-each.
- Multiple units can be "daisy-chained" to allow 2 keyboards and 2 mice at the same time.
- Programmable -- stores some key-mapping settings internally (i. e. right-alt to Windows logo)
- Allows "hot plugging"
- Recommended by Kinesis and Datahand for adapting their keyboards.
- Find specifications and manual on their web page.

On Pi Engineerings website, they list OEM PS/2>USB converter psb available to go into whatever project item (Kinesis Keyboard?).
« Last Edit: Mon, 27 February 2012, 04:35:05 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #159 on: Wed, 29 February 2012, 01:33:11 »
I got this pointing device recently: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140535710825

It's a dirt cheap but very interesting device, has a smooth freely spinning trackball, with clickable scrollwheel, 2 regular buttons, and an optical "eye" which lets it work like a mouse (and the trackball is still accessible on the side). So you can use it as a mouse, or as a stationary trackball, or pick it up and use it as a handheld trackball!
It's very small, so any parts of it will easily fit into a Kinesis case...
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #160 on: Wed, 07 March 2012, 01:35:20 »
Interesting little jobber. How does it work for you as it is (pre-Kinesis-modded)?

ALSO: I was doing some minor checking on the moved F-keys from the top row to other locations and I noticed the F15 key does not repeat when held down like all the other F-keys on USB on Mac. Any confirmation/ideas?
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 March 2012, 02:07:41 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #161 on: Wed, 07 March 2012, 01:49:11 »
Works great except it's too small for my hands. That little trackball behaves better than I expected though. However the scroll wheel isn't that great, it's rather sluggish. I opened this thing up, it has 3 optical sensors (for trackball, scrollwheel,  surface tracking)... impressive! Internals are a little shoddy, but it works nice, unlike other no-name mice/trackballs I tried.

No idea about F15. What key / configuration setting makes the Kinesis have an F15 ???
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 March 2012, 02:02:55 by sordna »
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #162 on: Wed, 07 March 2012, 02:04:59 »
Print/Scroll/Pause=F13/F14/F15 in Mac, never checked in Windows if it's possible.

Sounds like you're dead on right about that little guy being a decent parts doner for the mod. Gonna follow up with you in a month or two on that for my Kinesis final assembly.
« Last Edit: Sat, 10 March 2012, 01:53:20 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #163 on: Wed, 07 March 2012, 02:16:47 »
Pause/Break is a "momentary key". Even if you hold it down, it generates a press and a release event immediately (regardless of keyboard).
Looks like F15 on the Advantage inherits that behavior! I would contact Kinesis about that, if it's a bug they should be able to fix it in a future firmware version.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Icarium

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« Reply #164 on: Fri, 09 March 2012, 02:49:24 »
input nirvana: What was your final verdict on the "trackpoint between yuhj or similar" idea?
I think I have time for drilling this week-end.
I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline uberben

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« Reply #165 on: Fri, 09 March 2012, 22:11:41 »
I just got some of these on sample from the manufacturer (same part used in this breakout board). It is a linear style joystick (slides as opposed to rocking) and has an integrated button that clicks when you push the joystick in. Unlike other sliding joysticks that use wipers on variable resistor contacts, this joystick uses a magnet and a 2D magnetic sensor for position information, so it should be more reliable and accurate.

I am thinking of making my own minimal breakout board for it and mounting one or two to my Kinesis near the thumb clusters or the inner edge of the keywells. They feel sort of similar to a trackpoint with regards to the distance it can move and the integrated click would be nice for one of the mouse buttons. A while ago I had also bought some replacement PSP joysticks for a similar purpose, but they don't return to centre well, something that is required for mousing.

Anyway, enough ranting, time for pics:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43363[/ATTACH]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43358[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43359[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43364[/ATTACH]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43360[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43362[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43361[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Wed, 14 March 2012, 09:37:23 by uberben »

Offline sordna

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« Reply #166 on: Fri, 09 March 2012, 23:53:32 »
Thats' very interesting! So what is needed to make this device act as a USB mouse?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #167 on: Sat, 10 March 2012, 02:50:53 »
Quote from: Icarium;539935
input nirvana: What was your final verdict on the "trackpoint between yuhj or similar" idea?
I think I have time for drilling this week-end.

I used the YUHJ location, it seemed to fit best to the hand staying on home row.

I had a long multi-point series of responses typed to Uberben, Sordna, and expanding on the above answer, but lost it somewhere in the cloud and don't have it in me to do over. :(
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #168 on: Sat, 10 March 2012, 08:49:42 »
Quote from: sordna;540787
Thats' very interesting! So what is needed to make this device act as a USB mouse?


As part of my bluetooth mod, I plan to replace the stock controller in the Kinesis with something designed for low power. I'll be connecting the joystick to that controller directly and coding up the mouse myself.

The one drawback with that smaller unit compared to a TrackPoint is that I likely can't stick it between keys. I might be able to glue on a stick extension, but I fear the torque on that arm will inhibit the sliding action and possibly activate the button when not desired.

Offline sordna

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« Reply #169 on: Sat, 10 March 2012, 23:42:35 »
Uberben, the location between the N and arrow key, or to next to the right Control key seems fine to me. Will a teensy be able to present either of these joysticks as a USB joystick HID device?
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #170 on: Sun, 11 March 2012, 10:50:59 »
I used an Apple 360 scrollball scavenged from an Apple Mighty Mouse in the notch of the left thumb cluster. It is used for page scrolling. The trackpoint is in the right key well for cursor movement. I wanted to have the trackpoint do both functions by holding down a key for scrolling pages. Can that be possible with these you found, Überben?
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #171 on: Sun, 11 March 2012, 12:13:48 »
Quote from: sordna;541984
Uberben, the location between the N and arrow key, or to next to the right Control key seems fine to me. Will a teensy be able to present either of these joysticks as a USB joystick HID device?

Yes, a teensy should be able to report the joystick as an HID joystick, HID mouse, HID keyboard, HID MIDI controller, just about anything. My plan is to design my own controller board and use the LUFA USB stack, but I will be using the same chip as the teensy, and my prototyping board is this one from Adafruit. I chose it over the Teensy primarily because it is open source (hardware and software), unlike the teensy. I believe the ATmega32u4 chip on those boards can report around 6 simultaneous USB endpoints, so I can use the one controller to do the keyboard, mouse, and even add a gaming mode where the joysticks are actual gamepad joysticks.

Quote from: input nirvana;542236
I used an Apple 360 scrollball scavenged from an Apple Mighty Mouse in the notch of the left thumb cluster. It is used for page scrolling. The trackpoint is in the right key well for cursor movement. I wanted to have the trackpoint do both functions by holding down a key for scrolling pages. Can that be possible with these you found, Überben?

I saw your scroll ball mod, which was part of my inspiration for this. The mighty mouse scrollball seems similar to the ball on many older BlackBerries/Android phones. I like the 4-directional scrolling it provides, but I've not been overly fond of the fact it feels like it has notches when it rolls. Scrolling with a TrackPoint is very nice. Variable speed, no need to lift a finger for long scrolls, etc. I plan to implement something like this with my build, either with a toggle on the one joystick or by using a second joystick just for scrolling. There should be no problem getting my joysticks to do this other than having to put time into coding it. My only fear is that the mouse HID standard doesn't implement the smooth scrolling that the TrackPoint driver does. Worst case scenario, I will have choppy scrolling until I implement a custom driver.

Hopefully I can get a proof of concept up soon, but I will probably have to wait to get some PCBs made and it is looking as though my job might hit a busy period soon. I'll try to post a video once I get something going, though.

Offline Icarium

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« Reply #172 on: Sun, 11 March 2012, 16:31:57 »
Quote from: input nirvana;540890
I used the YUHJ location, it seemed to fit best to the hand staying on home row.

I had a long multi-point series of responses typed to Uberben, Sordna, and expanding on the above answer, but lost it somewhere in the cloud and don't have it in me to do over. :(

Well, when you're in it the cloud is actually a fog. ;D
I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #173 on: Fri, 30 March 2012, 14:00:42 »
QUESTION:
The Advantage has a toroid on the USB cable. Is it sort of needed as a safety because of all that the keyboard has going on (USB hub, programming, remapping, etc.)? Or is it just meaningless bling?

Sent to Kinesis tech support today:
1) The toroid on the USB power cable...is it needed because you have the usb hub/programmable/etc? Or just some bling?
2) Is the Advantage actually a PS/2 device with a PS/2-USB active converter (the little pcb with the 2 usb hub ports)?
3) My Advantage in Mac mode, the F15 key does not "hold down" so using it as a volume key was less than ideal. Is that a firmware buggy?

We have the key cap schedule so we can get custom keys from Signature Plastics, but I haven't gotten the newer slightly taller key caps (Costar?) worked out yet, can't find a size/profile anywhere. Industrial espionage secrets.

Hopefully maybe we'll get a tidbit of info to help with a couple things :)
------------------------------------
EDIT - - -

Here is some neat info from Rick....I pieced together a couple emails to get all the info in one place:

"1). The ferrite cylinder is to control radio emissions to pass FCC/CE testing. Lots of other devices has these but some are internal. It's there because of the hub.
2). Yes, we always used the same PS/2 circuit board but when we switched over to USB we simply added a daughterboard converter and changed the firmware. So the circuit board in an older Classic keyboard for example is the same circuit board we use today in our Advantage."

I want to ask if there's a way to update firmware on an older Kinesis. Sounds like using a Y-mouse almost makes an older Kinesis an Advantage. We should look at popping the daughterboard into an older Kinesis and see what happens. :)

I have an email or two circulating about my F15 question....I don't think they intend Print/Scroll/Pause to be F13/F14/F15....I think that's just an OSX mapping. Maybe in the future that can be utilized somewhat differently through firmware. Those keys are legacy anyway.

ADVANTAGE LF INFO:
Another item came up about the Advantage LF. It may be going onto the Kinesis website. They are thinking about making it distinguished from the others by offering it as a black keyboard, with red home row keys (instead of blue), and a black label with 'Advantage LF' in red. Sounds very bold and attractive to me. What do you think? My Advantage with the few red keys from WASD Keyboards looks great!
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 March 2012, 17:33:51 by input nirvana »
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #174 on: Fri, 30 March 2012, 18:20:34 »
Good info and hey I like the red arrow keys idea !
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #175 on: Fri, 30 March 2012, 22:00:12 »
Kinesis cable clean-up mod:

1) I may push the cord into the case so the other toroid is in the case.
There's a toroid IN the Kinesis, and the other one OUTSIDE the Kinesis. Only the newer Advantage models have the additional exterior toroid because of the USB port hub.

2) I may take the male RJ-11 plug for the foot switch and put it in the case with an RJ-11 female jack mounted to the interior of the case.
Then, for using a foot switch, you can just plug it into the keyboard and not need a female-female adapter. No more dongle!
The older PS/2 Kinesis uses a 6 conductor wire from the main pcb. 4 wires for the PS/2 and 2 wires for the RJ-11 plug. The RJ-11 plug is located near the end of the PS/2 cable, which is a better spot, in my opinion. Who wants a second cord going to the keyboard?
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #176 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 00:46:23 »
Good ideas. BTW I love the detachable cables on my old #110, female PS/2 and RJ11 ports (mounted on a metal plate). Also the case had metal inserts for the screws, which I like better than coarse thread screws going into the plastic.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #177 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 01:06:25 »
Hey yea! Might as well make the USB cable detachable as well. I need to make a plate anyhow :)
Or, replace with a 6 conductor cable and create the 'old style' cable with the RJ-11 near the computer-end, except terminating in USB instead of PS/2! I wonder if having the 2 conductors for the footswitch would do anything to the other 4 USB? I wouldn't think so since they are digital. Noise in the line shouldn't be an issue.

Metal threaded inserts: My split Kinesis has that. Nice feature!

At what point in life did we become such noodlers????

EDIT - - -
Decided. I can use 8 conductor shielded twisted-pair wire that's USB compliant (Ethernet is a higher standard so I suppose I can use that), I'll put male/female USB connectors on the ends and pull 2 additional wires to make a 4" pigtail at the computer end with an RJ-11 FEMALE jack for the footswitch.

Use non-solder cable-plugs/receptacles, but I don't think they are available with overmould plastic casing. Probably need to use heat shrink. Might look nice and clean without the plastic overmould though and black braided cable. Or spice it up with red braided cable to match a few red accent keys on an all black Kinesis.
Examples:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46540[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46551[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46552[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46550[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Sat, 31 March 2012, 03:27:52 by input nirvana »
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #178 on: Sun, 01 April 2012, 14:54:27 »
Quote from: input nirvana;561731
We should look at popping the daughterboard into an older Kinesis and see what happens. :)

I have done this with the daughter board from a roughly 3 year old Advantage and my Essential 132 and it all seemed to work fine. That is how I discovered PS/2 output on the USB Advantage.

I have a completely unrelated question. Does anyone know the part number (Digikey or other) for either the ribbon cable or ribbon connector for connecting the key wells to the main board? I don't want to destroy my main board when I build my custom controller. I have the 132 with the key wells with integrated edge connector. I am assuming the connector for the edge connector and the ribbon cable are the same. can anyone confirm or deny that?

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #179 on: Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:09:36 »
Quote from: uberben;563683
I have done this with the daughter board from a roughly 3 year old Advantage and my Essential 132 and it all seemed to work fine. That is how I discovered PS/2 output on the USB Advantage.
Awesomeness in Canada. Next question: How are the girls?

 
Quote from: uberben;563683
I have a completely unrelated question. Does anyone know the part number (Digikey or other) for either the ribbon cable or ribbon connector for connecting the key wells to the main board? I don't want to destroy my main board when I build my custom controller. I have the 132 with the key wells with integrated edge connector. I am assuming the connector for the edge connector and the ribbon cable are the same. can anyone confirm or deny that?

I do not know the part numbers :(
The integrated edge connector is when the curved pcb from the keywell has the 'finger' extending out and plugs into the mainboard connector without using a flexible cable/ribbon?

Keywell connectors on the mainboard:
The 'older' black female connectors that accept the pcb keywell 'fingers' have the actual springy contacts on both sides. The connectors are tight enough that they accept and hold the newer white ribbon cables as well. They stopped using these somewhere in the #40,xxx and #50,xxx. I had a #51,xxx with the edge connectors, but Sordna has a #4x,xxx with white ribbons.

The 'newer' white female connectors (with the locking latch) that are for the ribbons only, have the actual contacts on one side only. This is why you need 2 different ribbon cables depending on serial before/after #60,000. Kinesis has those white one-sided connectors either turned 180 degrees, or just with contacts on the opposite side. I think the pcb is the same and the hole pattern is offset so you can't solder the connector backwards, so I guess that means the connectors have the contacts on the opposite side (2 different white connectors).

I believe the connectors to the mainboard are the same....I'd have to compare the pins again and I can't do that right now. The connectors to the ribbon cables (2 typed)/edge of pcb (1 type) are different (total of 3 different types).

** I have this, and can check things for you:
-older black connectors
-after #60,000 newer white connectors
-up to #60,xxx ribbon cables
-after #60,xxx ribbon cables

Do not have the white connectors up to #60,xxx


EDITED HEAVILY....PLEASE RE-READ
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 April 2012, 16:36:24 by input nirvana »
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #180 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 10:45:56 »
I emailed Kinesis about the part numbers for the ribbon connectors as parts for my bluetooth controller. Here is the info I got:

Quote
Hello,
 
Connector for keywells & function keys for current Kinesis Advantage keyboards.:
http://www.cvilux.com.tw/aloha/product/a38.pdf
PN: CF01131V000
 
New keywell cable:      
Cvilux. PN FFCB1302T106400-600 FFC CARD CABLE 1.25mm pitch 13 cond. 64mm length 5mm exposed RoHS
 
Thumb key cable: Molex Connector Corporation  WM10-02A-ND
 
Make sure to send us some pictures when you’re all finished.
 
Regards,
 
Rick

I'm not sure about connectors for my 132 where the board edge connects directly to the mainboard (I did ask, but maybe the part is discontinued or something). I will look into finding a suitable replacement when I find some time. Even though I intend to find parts for a custom board, I will try to make them compatible with the original parts' footprints so that they can be sourced as replacements.
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 April 2012, 16:12:46 by uberben »

Offline uberben

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« Reply #181 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 16:01:52 »
I have another question for all you Kinesis modders. Has anyone make a schematic of the controller board yet? There are scans of the button boards here but not of the controller board. I ask because I am planning on making a little breakout board which can connect to all the button sections, mount into the existing case, and then have a bunch of pin headers to make it easier to integrate with a custom controller, similar to how the teensy and other development boards have a bunch of holes around the edge of the board.

I am asking about the controller schematic because any lines that are shared between the button boards can be combined into a single pin on the breakout board. For the purpose of just making something that works, I could just join arbitrary rows and columns. However, I would like to maintain Kinesis compatibility in case the breakout board is, for example, used to break the Kinesis into two sections while retaining the original controller, thus allowing you to solder onto breakout pins instead of getting long flat ribbon cables.

I'm imagining something roughly like the red outline here (base image borrowed from sordna's post):
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47088[/ATTACH]

If no such schematic or key map exists, I will probably just do it myself. I just don't want to duplicate work if it has already been done.  :)

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #182 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 16:46:11 »
Wow. You got part numbers. I didn't think that was a possibility.

I think the diagram may show that the contacts are on one side. We can use that to find the other part number of the connector/ribbon cable with the contacts on the OPPOSITE side (you can see by the pins that the connectors are not turned around).

Just need the 'old style' pcb.... :)

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« Last Edit: Tue, 03 April 2012, 17:02:38 by input nirvana »
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #183 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 19:30:01 »
Quote from: uberben;565892
I have another question for all you Kinesis modders. Has anyone make a schematic of the controller board yet? There are scans of the button boards here but not of the controller board.
...
If no such schematic or key map exists, I will probably just do it myself. I just don't want to duplicate work if it has already been done.  :)

Well, the button boards connect to the cotroller board, so it's the same info isn't it? Best collection of schematics is by dmw here:

http://humblehacker.com/blog/20100720/hacking-the-kinesis-contoured-keyboard/

I borrowed some of that info and used it to show extra matrix locations in my wiki

 
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 April 2012, 19:33:42 by sordna »
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #184 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 20:12:14 »
Quote from: sordna;566072
Well, the button boards connect to the cotroller board, so it's the same info isn't it?


Not quite. Each collection of keys makes up part of a key matrix, but I would find it hard to believe that each one was a unique key matrix. What is more likely is that they are all part of one larger matrix. In fact, I have highlighted some (but likely not all) of these shared connections in red in the image you included.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47128[/ATTACH]

I had forgotten about the Humble Hacker Kinesis info. Thank you for the reminder. This is likely the info I am looking for and I will confirm next time I have my board open. I have copied the list here for posterity.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47129[/ATTACH]

Looking at that matrix, I wonder if there are more remappable keys in there that span multiple keyboard sections. there is a nice big gap in rows 1-3 and columns G-L. I can see the gaps where I suspect you found your extra keys (marked with a "**"). If you need any more buttons added, this might give you an idea for where to look :)

Offline sordna

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« Reply #185 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 20:31:11 »
One large matrix ... you are probably right! Ok, I'm passing the extra keys torch to you, you will do better than me. Gotta see your post count increase too, I can't believe you're still at 15 :-)
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #186 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 20:36:46 »
Yes, the individual matrix layouts are part of one large matrix. There may be additional remapable keys, but how many more I don't know, nor if they are blank/have repeated functions.
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #187 on: Tue, 03 April 2012, 20:51:28 »
Odds are I won't be adding any keys to the stock controller, but I'll try to keep my mods compatible as much as possible so that anything I do can be easily reused.

It does feel a bit strange to only be at 15 posts. I've been lurking for a couple years now, so I guess it is about time I spoke up :)  I should have some more project time in the near future, so hopefully it will become more frequent.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #188 on: Wed, 04 April 2012, 10:06:35 »
15 posts, that's kinda funny because I was scratching my head at the post count as well...I was thinking "How can that be?". Then I realized part of the contact has been through PM, so from my perspective the 15 didn't hold water. :)

I need to go back to your hacker website and poke around, I saw some neat stuff there.
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Offline uberben

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« Reply #189 on: Mon, 09 April 2012, 16:45:40 »
Hey IN. I see you are starting a wiki for all the Kinesis info. Are you looking for some helpers to organize that wiki and keep it updated? I'd be willing to help out a bit.

Also, if you move over the pics of the example mods, I think links to the sources would be really helpful for anyone looking for more info on a particular mod.

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« Reply #190 on: Mon, 09 April 2012, 19:52:41 »
Yo!
I am making a wiki "Everything Kinesis Advantage" so it will pop up when the world searches :) I want to have a clean listing of all the various mods (about 10), with one or more detailed examples for each complete with references, photos, links, etc. as well as a link farm for anything of value that is Kinesis related. A collaborative effort is needed to do a thorough job. A couple hardware items I need to re-do and take better photos of (the splitting of the keyboard). The current article was mostly for my own reference and to think things out...I started it 2 years ago-ish. I don't have a time frame, but I thought I would get started with the wiki placeholder, and taking the old article, stripping it down to bare essentials, and building it back up.

So yea, thanks, welcome aboard, I'm game for this :)
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Offline QuinRiva

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« Reply #191 on: Fri, 13 April 2012, 20:55:13 »
IN did you ever take measurements of the keywells for the kinesis?  I'm trying to build a custom split case with Kinesis like keywells out of sheetmetal, I have a few illustrations in the ErgoDox thread.  I want to get a couple concepts knocked up in the machine shop while I'm waiting for the the keywells to arrive from kinesis, but the only values I have for the spacing of the mounts is rough measurements from photographs, so I was wondering if you happened to take measurements as part of your projects?

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« Reply #192 on: Fri, 13 April 2012, 21:14:03 »
No, I have not. There was some rough scaling done for the 4 mounting points of each keywell for the "caseless Kinesis" I want to make, but no other specifics measurements have been done.

EDIT---
I saw your diagrams... I like it...standalone keywell/case combo for each half. Slick as snot!
« Last Edit: Fri, 13 April 2012, 21:22:42 by input nirvana »
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #193 on: Sat, 19 May 2012, 00:33:53 »
Thought I'd throw this out there---

I've had the Key Switch Tester for a couple days. It has Cherry browns, blues, blacks, reds, clears, green, "ergo" clears. Kinesis Advantage is available with browns or reds. After trying all the switches head-to-head, I'd say that "ergo" clears are a fine switch option for the Kinesis. Still light to the touch, but with more of a tactile feel. I'm surprised Cherry doesn't make this switch.

I believe someone was going to swap to "ergo" clears at some point. Was it Lanx?
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #194 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:00:37 »
I am not monitoring/participating/contributing on Geekhack anymore.

I have subscribed to this thread, and will be alerted if someone posts here or if a PM is sent to me (Input Nirvana) as well.

I will respond to this thread/wiki and PMs.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #195 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:06:50 »
Mkawa giving me an infraction yesterday for a girlie pic I posted last September, is the last straw. GH has been going downhill overall, even though a few select things have improved.

I'm over it.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #196 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:12:24 »
See ya dude...will miss ya :(

Quote from: ripster;600992
Might want to pm iMav in case this is deleted.

Agreed...the more people exposing the truth to the head honcho, the better.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #197 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:14:19 »
I assume all pics of girls are in the process of being scrubbed? Dunno. Don't care. Not my forum, I was just a guest that didn't follow the rules. Too bad the pic is gone...I'll see if I can post it in the Kinesis article. It was a keeper.

See you on Deskthority. I have Hoggys keyboard I gotta ship, so I better not be too scarce over there or he'll think I'm keeping it!
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
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Offline keyboardlover

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #198 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:17:30 »
Well you won't see me there.

When you eventually get bored there, give me a holler.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis Advantage - Everything you want to know but are afraid to ask!
« Reply #199 on: Sat, 26 May 2012, 20:18:38 »
Nah. Imav started the mods, and it's his forum. He can run around and do something if he doesn't like it. Someone else screwed it up, let someone else fix it if they want to. Not my job.

Most of them are great (I'd give them a hug on their birthday), it's the bad apple that spoils the barrel.

You guys sure jumped on this thread awfully fast! Didn't think you monitored the modifications forum so much.
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | on Mac+Hackintosh
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch via Tapatalk VIP                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~