Author Topic: Keyboards for a light touch  (Read 14824 times)

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Offline mps

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Keyboards for a light touch
« on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:02:06 »
After 50 years of programming on a keyboard, my fingers have had it. I can't use my Unicomp without my knuckles hurting (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70572.msg1703150#msg1703150), and I even feel it occasionally with my Cherry Browns. Any recommendations for a keyboard that is "light on the fingers"?

Thanks,

Mike

Offline cryptokey

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:09:20 »
You might want to look at ergonomic keyboard options such as the ergodox with MX Reds or Gateron clears which are even lighter.  There is also topre 45g or the Realforce 87U with variable weighted switches for ergonomics which I personally really enjoy.  However, what might make the biggest difference is looking into your ergonomics.  Not just ergonomic keyboards, but how you are sitting, your 90 degree elbow angle, wrist angle, etc.  Lastly, there is always the option of trying an alternate layout like dvorak or colemak which bring the more frequently used keys closer together, reducing the strain on your fingers since they move less.  Hopefully this helps.
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Offline chyros

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:09:57 »
Monterey switches are a little lighter (60 gf) and feel extremely delicate and very smooth. They're one of my favourite switches, probably my favourite light clicky switches. There are even lighter clicky switches out there, but this is what most obviously springs to mind for me.
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Offline rxc92

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 11:50:44 »
If you have RSI or similar, definitely a tactile switch is not the way to go (click/bump provides a slight increase in pressure as it happens), so linears are a good choice. You could try an ergonomic keyboard, like the Ergodox with MX Reds (or any other switch), and that's nearly as light as it gets. Topre probably wouldn't be a good idea as their 45g is heavier than Browns.

Offline quasistellar

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 12:23:25 »
matias linear may be a good choice as well.

Offline CryHam

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 13:50:41 »
You could check my post here about rubber dome reduction.
I'm a fan of DIY, if you want to have something done right, you have to do it yourself, is my motto since I was a kid.
The stuff that's being sold is just the stupid garbage that still brings profit (if you don't believe see e.g. QWERTY layout since 1873, cool comic about it here).

Offline klennkellon

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 15:15:11 »
30g Topre? Gateron Clears are also 30g if I recall.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:16:53 »
After 50 years of programming on a keyboard, my fingers have had it. I can't use my Unicomp without my knuckles hurting (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70572.msg1703150#msg1703150), and I even feel it occasionally with my Cherry Browns. Any recommendations for a keyboard that is "light on the fingers"?

Thanks,

Mike

Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:18:52 »
I disagree about linear switches and Topre 45g. Topre 35g would be a light touch -- and some of the keys on the variable Topre are about that weight while some are even stiffer than 45g. However, it is not just the force at actuation that determines if a key is hard to press - a better metric would be the area under the curve in the force/displacement graph and that depends on the shape of the curve.
But most of all, with Topre and linear switches -- and sometimes when using Cherry MX brown because it has such low tactile feedback -- the actuation point does not always coincide with any noticeable tactile feedback and therefore you will tend to overshoot when typing on these switches.

I would recommend that you try Cherry MX Blue with O-rings. O-rings to remove "clack" sound on bottoming out and also to reduce key travel. You would get tactile and auditory feedback that you are used to but the spring is much lighter. The tactile feedback is also much sharper than Cherry MX Brown. The very best would be a vintage keyboard, actually ... as newer switches are a bit scratchy.

Also, that you try out a Kinesis Advantage or a Maltron. Not just because of wrist angle columnar layout but also because the Key travel vector better coincides with the vector of the finger's movement -- there is less shearing force when you press a key.

BTW, I once had similar problems with pain in the fingers. I had been using stiff rubber dome keyboards at work and too small mice with hard buttons. I changed to (almost) vertical "ergonomic" mice with light buttons and a keyboard at work with Cherry MX Brown. That worked. Now the tactile bumps on that keyboards' switches are almost worn out - it feels like a keyboard with Cherry MX Red ...
« Last Edit: Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:22:49 by Findecanor »
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 17:30:13 »
Not sure if this is a popular / agreed opinion here on GH, but I find stock MX Clears light to type on because I do not bottom out on them. I believe that bottoming out can put strain on the finger muscles and finger joints / knuckles because you have this collision force going back to your bones / muscles. You don't have this if you do not bottom out.
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Offline robbles

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 18:07:16 »
Gateron Clears are a 35g linear switch, and are the lightest MX switch that is easy to get as far as I know. Massdrop has a buy on them currently for a good price.

You could also try a Realforce variable weight keyboard, which has a 30 to 45 gram actuation. https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0

Sorry to hear about your knuckles!
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Offline chyros

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 19:36:00 »
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.
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Offline Keycap

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 19:41:10 »
I definitely recommend a linear switch like Gateron Red or Gateron Clear. They're very comfortable to type on.

Offline klennkellon

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 15 April 2016, 22:02:26 »
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.
Deskauthority says actuation is 60g

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch

Offline KRKS

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 01:52:39 »
I think the
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.

35g batch was limited to the OpenSteno poject, the ones on the market are 60g
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 04:09:45 »
After 50 years of programming on a keyboard, my fingers have had it. I can't use my Unicomp without my knuckles hurting
Hi mps. Welcome to Geekhack! Hope you enjoy your stay, and I hope your pain improves.

First, I have a general recommendation regardless of keyboard, which might or might not apply to you:

See if you can find a way to type with your elbows, forearms, wrists, and palms “floating” in the air, not resting on any surface. If doing so puts strain on your shoulders or upper arm muscles, try to bring the keyboard closer to your body until you can type with your upper arms hanging loosely at your sides with your back and shoulders relaxed, and tilt the keyboard such that the top surface is parallel to your forearms. If you aren’t resting your arms on an armrest/table/palmrest, then when you type any impact shock can be transferred from your fingers to the strong muscles in your upper arms. By contrast, if you are using a palmrest, then your hand will be static, leaving all shock to be absorbed in your finger joints.

As a corollary, try to type with an airy, springy, “dancing” style. Instead of mashing your fingers down with every keystroke, try to just use the minimum force you can to get past the click point, but no more. A Model M is actually pretty good for this, because the spring buckling is very dramatically tactile and loud. The biggest source of shock to the finger joints is from hitting the bottom of the stroke with a hard impact, rather than from the rest of the keystroke. If the keys were just too hard to press, but you were typing without mashing them more than necessary, I suspect you’d be feeling tired rather than in pain. [Hard to be sure about this without watching you type directly.]

It probably goes without saying, but getting good sleep, exercise, and diet, avoiding chronic anxiety, and taking a break from the computer to walk around a bit every hour or so, with shorter breaks from continuous typing a few times an hour, can also help a lot.

Second, I echo Findecanor’s suggestion to try a split keyboard with some hand separation and/or aggressive tenting, such as a Matias ErgoPro (if you want something easy to learn) or a Kinesis Advantage. Reducing the amount of wrist pronation required to type makes a big improvement to typing comfort, because it gives you a lot more slack to work with in all of the rest of your posture choices. A standard keyboard is not very well designed to match the human body, and forces you to make some trade-off about where to distribute static strain between your shoulders, your arms, or your wrists. A well designed split keyboard lets you reduce the overall amount of static strain quite considerably.

Third, as to your specific comment about typing on a Unicomp being too much, note that IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp Model Ms are quite stiff switches. Many other switches use dramatically less force. I agree with Chyros that SMK clicky switches are really nice (these are sometimes called “Monterey” switches because they were used on a particular keyboard sold by Monterey). If you want a standard one-piece keyboard, they might be a good alternative to a Model M for you. They’re clicky enough to feel familiar to a Model M user, but take substantially less work to press, which should help you to type lightly.

A Model F is also notably less stiff than a Model M (though still stiffer than other alternatives), if you decide you can’t give buckling springs up.

Other possible alternatives include clicky “space invader” switches from a mid-1990s NMB RightTouch keyboard, clicky Alps, or even (though not my favorite) clicky blue Cherry MX switches. MX blue switches are much less tactile than a Model M, but take substantially less force to actuate.

If you have RSI or similar, definitely a tactile switch is not the way to go (click/bump provides a slight increase in pressure as it happens), so linears are a good choice.
Speaking for myself, I can’t agree with this advice, though the scientific literature is pretty spotty on this general subject, so this is more of a personal intuition than a validated general fact.

Tactile switches are a big help for typing lightly, because they give you a direct signal when you’ve actuated the switch, which reduces finger force at bottom-out.

If you get a linear switch, I recommend something with a high actuation point and a beeper for direct audio feedback.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2016, 04:22:22 by jacobolus »

Offline mps

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 14:06:12 »
Thanks for all the great responses. I just calculated that I have typed for over 50,000 hours in my life (holy crap!), so I think I can easily justify investing in whatever keyboard I want to keep at my career, but the hard part is choosing. My Filco Majestouch with MX browns is not bad, and I am usually ok when I remember to type lightly, but I wonder if I should proactively find something easier on my fingers to keep it from progressing.
Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?
Yes, the knuckles are what really hurt, which I suspect it is an incipient arthritis thing. Occasionally I have minor wrist soreness, for which I should probably pay more attention to my ergonomics, but really it is the big knuckle of each finger, which I'm guessing is more of a force thing.

Quote from: Findecanor
Also, that you try out a Kinesis Advantage or a Maltron. Not just because of wrist angle columnar layout but also because the Key travel vector better coincides with the vector of the finger's movement -- there is less shearing force when you press a key.
This sounds like a great idea. I used a Microsoft natural keyboard in the '90s and even though my knuckles weren't a problem then, I really enjoyed the more natural movement of typing on it.
Quote from: Findecanor
BTW, I once had similar problems with pain in the fingers. I had been using stiff rubber dome keyboards at work and too small mice with hard buttons. I changed to (almost) vertical "ergonomic" mice with light buttons and a keyboard at work with Cherry MX Brown. That worked. Now the tactile bumps on that keyboards' switches are almost worn out - it feels like a keyboard with Cherry MX Red ...
Great observation. My "left-click finger" knuckle used to hurt a lot, but after switching to a SteelSeries sensei, that has stopped. When I observe my mouse press, I notice it is so easy to press that I only use the last knuckle (near the tip) on my index finger, so that there is very little pressure on the middle knuckle.
Quote from: robbles
Gateron Clears are a 35g linear switch, and are the lightest MX switch that is easy to get as far as I know. Massdrop has a buy on them currently for a good price.

You could also try a Realforce variable weight keyboard, which has a 30 to 45 gram actuation. https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0

Sorry to hear about your knuckles!
I will investigate these.
« Last Edit: Sat, 16 April 2016, 14:22:34 by mps »

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 15:25:52 »
Too bad man! What do you actually feel? Only the knuckles? No wrist?
Yes, the knuckles are what really hurt, which I suspect it is an incipient arthritis thing. Occasionally I have minor wrist soreness, for which I should probably pay more attention to my ergonomics, but really it is the big knuckle of each finger, which I'm guessing is more of a force thing.

My mother suffers from arthritis as well and has been complaining for years about keyboards. Especially the apple aluminum wireless one. So I bought here a HHKB (Topre) because it is case mounted and dome so it is REALLY soft on the knuckles. Because it is so soft, the keyboard absorbs almost all force and gives little back to your fingers. She doesn't have any symptoms anymore with that keyboard.
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Offline mps

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:15:47 »
My mother suffers from arthritis as well and has been complaining for years about keyboards. Especially the apple aluminum wireless one. So I bought here a HHKB (Topre) because it is case mounted and dome so it is REALLY soft on the knuckles. Because it is so soft, the keyboard absorbs almost all force and gives little back to your fingers. She doesn't have any symptoms anymore with that keyboard.
Thanks, one of my long-time co-workers swears by the HHKB, but his recommendation hasn't been as "focused on knuckles" as yours :), so this is great information.

Mike

Offline dante

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:23:13 »
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.

I bought a V80MTS w/ Matias Linears; I have to say I was shocked that at 35g I didn't accidentally actuate the keys at all.  It was a pretty good experience.

HOWEVER ... forget thinking that just because this is dampened that it's going to be quiet because the keycaps rattle like a SoaB.

You would be better off with Gateron Clears or Reds and use some nice squishy o-rings.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 16:39:27 »
Maybe the Matias linears might be good actually. Super light (I think 35 g?) and they're dampened as well.

I bought a V80MTS w/ Matias Linears; I have to say I was shocked that at 35g I didn't accidentally actuate the keys at all.  It was a pretty good experience.

HOWEVER ... forget thinking that just because this is dampened that it's going to be quiet because the keycaps rattle like a SoaB.

You would be better off with Gateron Clears or Reds and use some nice squishy o-rings.

Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?
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Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:09:33 »
What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)

Offline dante

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:28:34 »
Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?

They are annoying as ****.  Are you like me and go bat **** crazy when you tap on your space bar from left to right and it goes tick-tick-tick-tick?

If so the rattle will drive you crazy.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #23 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:52:30 »
What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)

How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
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Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:53:06 »
Rattle rattle... I hate rattle. Is it that bad?

They are annoying as ****.  Are you like me and go bat **** crazy when you tap on your space bar from left to right and it goes tick-tick-tick-tick?

If so the rattle will drive you crazy.

Yeah sounds like instant rage for me. So I'll probably stay away from matias then..
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Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 17:59:52 »
What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)

How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
If the switches are plate mounted, then yes. If they're soldered on pcb directly, then they can be opened too - for linear switches I use thin lube and it works great. I lube the stem and bottom housing with thin and springs with thick to reduce/remove potential ping/ring. Take a look at tutorials on how to proper lube mx switches and then take some hours of your time to accomplish that. But, don't forget to test the lubed switch afterwards...some need further adjustments to be flawless ;)

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:02:06 »
What about lubed vintage blacks with 55g springs? These are so light and a really great joy to type on. Mounted in a plate they give a raindrop-like sound when pressed - check some typing videos of them on youtube, usually they're found in korean custom boards, and they're really effortless to type on, soft, smooth and really precise. Just use a good set of doubleshot caps with them, match made in heaven! :)

How do you lube them? WHAT do you lube actually? Does it need desoldering?
If the switches are plate mounted, then yes. If they're soldered on pcb directly, then they can be opened too - for linear switches I use thin lube and it works great. I lube the stem and bottom housing with thin and springs with thick to reduce/remove potential ping/ring. Take a look at tutorials on how to proper lube mx switches and then take some hours of your time to accomplish that. But, don't forget to test the lubed switch afterwards...some need further adjustments to be flawless ;)

Thanks! I'm gonna build my own sick ass gaming rig this summer (hopefully). So a nice lubed blacks board may come in handy.
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Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:07:35 »
Sounds like a great project! What are you planning on using beside lubed mx blacks?
I'll test how mx blacks from 97' (non vintage) perform lubed with 55g's against their vintage counterpart soon. Should be interesting but I doubt they'll be more smoother...they aren't allowed to be haha

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:08:29 »
Sounds like a great project! What are you planning on using beside lubed mx blacks?
I'll test how mx blacks from 97' (non vintage) perform lubed with 55g's against their vintage counterpart soon. Should be interesting but I doubt they'll be more smoother...they aren't allowed to be haha

Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?
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Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:14:39 »
They can but you'll never really know for sure until you try them.

The best bet would be a vintage cherry board, usually yellowed and dirty...I had my fair share of luck when I've came across one - g80-1000had. Was just looking to try mx blacks, but then I was mesmerized instantly..how can a such a "crappy & yellow" board have so dope switches :)

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:18:07 »
They can but you'll never really know for sure until you try them.

The best bet would be a vintage cherry board, usually yellowed and dirty...I had my fair share of luck when I've came across one - g80-1000had. Was just looking to try mx blacks, but then I was mesmerized instantly..how can a such a "crappy & yellow" board have so dope switches :)

So basically you buy an old crummy board because you know it must be them old blacks and then you desolder and solder into a new board?
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:18:15 »
Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?
Sure, just cruise ebay and look out for keyboards with Cherry-looking keycaps and XT or AT layout.

Then you can use such a keyboard as-is, or desolder its switches and swap them into whatever other keyboard you like.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 16 April 2016, 18:20:19 »
Can vintage blacks actually be bought somewhere?
Sure, just cruise ebay and look out for keyboards with Cherry-looking keycaps and XT or AT layout.

Then you can use such a keyboard as-is, or desolder its switches and swap them into whatever other keyboard you like.

cool, great to know that
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Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 01:23:11 »
Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;) 

I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)

Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 April 2016, 01:26:29 by Crossfire »

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:09:25 »
Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;) 

I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)

Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.

How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
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Offline absyrd

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:17:09 »
I bottom out no matter the switch. I have girly fingers but I am a button masher. The only boards that my hands could ever really take for long periods of time were the original pcb mount poker and now HHKB.

So I don't have a light touch, but I need a light landing.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:28:25 »
Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;) 

I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)

Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.

How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
They're more refined and smoother than new blacks. Pm me if you want a sample of each ;) unlubed and with stock springs.

Offline iLLucionist

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  • Topre is Love.
Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:30:24 »
Exactly. The only downside is that sellers usually know good what they have and put a hefty price on it (ebay, ...). But there are exeptions and this will be your chance ;) 

I got mine 88' for 20$ for an example.. if you have looked at the board at actual state, overpaying comes to mind because of the bad condition...but considering the potential of doubleshots, mx blacks, modding to usb, full programmability, repainting the case...it's a gold mine :)

Vintages are now in my filco tkl and filco's blues in the g80.

How you like em vintages? Better than new ones, personally?
They're more refined and smoother than new blacks. Pm me if you want a sample of each ;) unlubed and with stock springs.

Sounds interesting... I've never touched vintage blacks.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:33:02 »
With 55g's it's godlike :)

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:34:06 »
With 55g's it's godlike :)

Wait... 55g isn't stock? Default stock is 62g?
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 07:43:40 »
I think stock is more between 65-70g...

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:18:19 »
I think stock is more between 65-70g...

Mmm... now I want blacks.

Picture my perfect (gaming) blacks board:

  • vintage blacks
  • 55g springs
  • stems lubed
  • o-rings
  • thick pbt caps

Mmmmmm...
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:24:35 »
...in aluminium case.

End game...period ;)

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:25:26 »
...in aluminium case.

End game...period ;)

Yeah end game... and then I go back to Topre again for some time :P

It'll never end with me :P
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 09:37:56 »
Same with me...topre, mx, topre, mx...it never ends, hot damn :)

Offline Macsmasher

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #45 on: Sun, 17 April 2016, 23:06:46 »
As an elderly coder myself (59), I'll share my experience. I had been using MX Browns for 3 - 4 years. Just like you, at the end of the day my knuckles ached. I bought a RF 87U variable and haven't had any issues with sore knuckles. I mean the pain was gone completely. If you're a touch typist, you won't notice the variable key weighting. It just feels 'balanced'. I also have a RF 87U 55g. It's a great board, but a bit too stiff for extended typing for me. However, if you're used to Unicomp, it may be fine for you. They're both great boards. But if I could only choose one, it would be the variable. I have since given all my Cherry boards to needy friends.

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 18 April 2016, 03:45:25 »
Same with me...topre, mx, topre, mx...it never ends, hot damn :)

Oh well... at least we have the luxury of having both :D
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 18 April 2016, 03:47:01 »
As an elderly coder myself (59), I'll share my experience. I had been using MX Browns for 3 - 4 years. Just like you, at the end of the day my knuckles ached. I bought a RF 87U variable and haven't had any issues with sore knuckles. I mean the pain was gone completely. If you're a touch typist, you won't notice the variable key weighting. It just feels 'balanced'. I also have a RF 87U 55g. It's a great board, but a bit too stiff for extended typing for me. However, if you're used to Unicomp, it may be fine for you. They're both great boards. But if I could only choose one, it would be the variable. I have since given all my Cherry boards to needy friends.

I've had the same experience. So first I but o-rings on my caps for my browns filco tkl board. Was better, but not completely. So I bought a HHKB. Though I love it, it felt a bit too mushy. Then I read up on people using clears and saying springs so heavy it is actually lighter because you can try not bottoming out. So did that. Then bought RF 87U 55g and that's best of all so far.
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g

Offline Crossfire

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:17:10 »
I've tried an 55g RF87U last week and I must say the switches are a lot better than 45g's from HHKB's. I was really impressed, didn't expect such a big difference. And like it was said before, the 55g switches don't have that mushy feeling like hhkb's have...which is odd. Lubing hhkb almost cures the mushiness, it did on my ex hhkb's. Then my fingers experienced 55g lubed vintage blacks...I really can't seem to get enough of that feeling, it's just so nice to type on...can't....stop...whew :D

Offline iLLucionist

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Re: Keyboards for a light touch
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 18 April 2016, 04:20:27 »
I've tried an 55g RF87U last week and I must say the switches are a lot better than 45g's from HHKB's. I was really impressed, didn't expect such a big difference. And like it was said before, the 55g switches don't have that mushy feeling like hhkb's have...which is odd. Lubing hhkb almost cures the mushiness, it did on my ex hhkb's. Then my fingers experienced 55g lubed vintage blacks...I really can't seem to get enough of that feeling, it's just so nice to type on...can't....stop...whew :D

With them 55g Topres, it may also well be the plate mounting opposed to the case mounting of the HHKB.

But yes... RF 87U 55g is sooo crisp mmmm
MJT2 Browns o-rings - HHKB White - ES-87 Smoke White Clears - 87UB 55g