Just got my hhkb pro2, @250$ the last zero was clearly a typo

[lal]

Wow, you're right. I better stop buying... everything?

Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.  Asking maybe up to 100 bucks for a Topre because of hq materials, rigid quality control and a personal prayer for each board leaving the factory might be acceptable.  But three times that much is simply obscene.

[kishy]

Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.  Asking maybe up to 100 bucks for a Topre because of hq materials, rigid quality control and a personal prayer for each board leaving the factory might be acceptable.  But three times that much is simply obscene.

Bingo.

Jeez, I'm saying 'bingo' a lot lately.

[itlnstln]

VGA???  Sheeeeeeeit, only mono dumb terminals here.  The graphics department uses CGA.

[kishy]

You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.

Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......

This still works in my favour.

$30 GeForce 7600GS 512MB AGP8x

And yes, that has DVI.

[Rajagra]

VGA???  Sheeeeeeeit, only mono dumb terminals here.  The graphics department uses CGA.

Hackers use Hercules and CGA cards in the same box.

It was the prototype for SLI!!!

[kishy]

See.

But at least I got you up from $5 to $30 :wink:.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps I did that myself with the $22 M5-2.

Damnit, my values are corrupting!

[kriminal]

This still works in my favour.

$30 GeForce 7600GS 512MB AGP8x

And yes, that has DVI.

eeeeeewwww 7600gs  ...vomit

*runs*

[kishy]

eeeeeewwww 7600gs  ...vomit

*runs*

I dunno, 200fps in CS:Source, 30-60 in GMod...certainly good enough for me.

[kriminal]

back on topic though im still wants me a topre!! however im a bit torn as to whether to try the HHKB or the realforce..

[lal]

I assume this comment was directed at me personally, too.

I can't afford a HHKB,

I could.

so it is obscene,

Nope, asking 300 bucks for a rubber dome is.

Topre sucks

Didn't say that.

and the users are idiots.

Neither that.

So I'm superior after all,

Nor that.

[lal]

You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.

That is just you.  I prefer rationality.

[kriminal]

You cheap guys are small minded and need to take a systems view.  As long as the keyboard costs less than the video card I'm happy.

Now, I expect all the VGA FTW posts to come rolling in......

i agree with this comment seeing as the topre's cost less than my vid card...

[ocdonkb]

back on topic though im still wants me a topre!! however im a bit torn as to whether to try the HHKB or the realforce..

I went with the Realforce, just didn't think the HHKB layout would work for me. And I'm not convinced with the whole "it's good for coding" argument.

[quadibloc]

Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.

The thing is, though, that those prices aren't really "reasonable"; actually, they're huge bargains. This is why in the early days of the PC, IBM's buckling spring keyboards were $200 instead of $50 - and prices were $150-$200 for pretty well everyone else's keyboards as well; even the rubber dome ones, which were built quite solidly.

Because of the competition from rubber dome keyboards starting at about $20, however, only those few manufacturers who can produce efficiently enough to produce quality keyboards for well under $100 - or who have a specialized niche market - can stay in business.

This is why there are only a limited number of brands of quality keyboards; if "just anyone" tried to make a keyboard with Cherry MX or ALPS switches, it would cost so much to make that they would have to charge around $200 for it to make a profit. It takes a big up-front investment to turn that around.

[ch_123]

Point is: prices for quality keyboards (Unicomp, Cherry G80) are somewhere around 60 bucks, which seems to be reasonable compared to "quality" rubber domes for 30 bucks, because mechanical boards have higher production costs for parts and assembly.

 

Yawn. You do realize that a Topre is a more complicated mechanism than a buckling spring keyboard, right? I mean, in addition to having just about everything a buckling spring has, the Topre has a pile of capacitive contacts, and more complicated electronics to deal with it. Capacitive keyboards cost more than membrane keyboards, and that's not just for Topres.

Your main argument is that they have a rubber dome in the mechanism, but hey, Model Ms use the same contact mechanism as rubber domes. The Model M probably has more in common with a rubber dome keyboard than a Topre is. Obviously you were stupid to spend $100 on that Unicomp.

[kriminal]

I went with the Realforce, just didn't think the HHKB layout would work for me. And I'm not convinced with the whole "it's good for coding" argument.

yeah i was siding with the realforce for that reason, still love the "minimalist" style of the hhkb though.

[lal]

Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?  Cherry G80, Filco Zero, ABS M1, Scorpius M10, Unicomp.  They all sell for 50 to 100 bucks *today*.  Topre is a mass producer, too.  If you want to tell me that producing a Topre board is more expensive than buying and soldering hundred individual switch modules then I'm out of the discussion immediately.

Topres are special in many different ways.  And if you want that and are willing to spend 300 bucks for it, that's totally okay.  Your decision, and if it's it worth it for you, fine.  Nevertheless the price is really exorbitant compared with the rest of the market.  No?

[microsoft windows]

I can't afford a HHKB, so it is obscene, Topre sucks and the users are idiots. So I'm superior after all, and it was a choice. This really says a lot about those people! Or about me..

I know plenty of smart people here who use their HHKB's. True, I think their layout is impractical, but I guess it's just more of a style that some people like. And they told me that the blank keys on some give them better practice at touch typing. Or they like the way they feel.

It's not my $250 that's being spent on each HHKB, and if someone's happy with it and it fits their needs, then that's good for them.

That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?

[kishy]

Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?  Cherry G80, Filco Zero, ABS M1, Scorpius M10, Unicomp.  They all sell for 50 to 100 bucks *today*.  Topre is a mass producer, too.  If you want to tell me that producing a Topre board is more expensive than buying and soldering hundred individual switch modules then I'm out of the discussion immediately.

Topres are special in many different ways.  And if you want that and are willing to spend 300 bucks for it, that's totally okay.  Your decision, and if it's it worth it for you, fine.  Nevertheless the price is really exorbitant compared with the rest of the market.  No?

This is more or less what I was intending to convey.

I don't own one and I likely never will, so I can't and won't judge the mechanism. It seems, theoretically, inferior...but we know theory is not everything and reality can often be quite different. My stance on the mechanism is neutral.

I'm strongly inclined to believe that their profit margin is HUGE, however. Although they don't move a particularly large volume, I'd be astounded if the manufacturing costs were beyond 20 dollars per board.

Certainly they're entitled to a profit, but surely even the people here with the most money to throw around will agree it stops making sense after a point.

[microsoft windows]

They simply charge what people are willing to pay for them.

[microsoft windows]

"According to Lexmark's Mr. McCall, low-priced Far East keyboard vendors 'are defining the lower end of the market, and I wish them a lot of luck, but we offer a better membrane keyboard, with better tactile feel, and a lot of service and market support here in the U.S. We offer Cadillacs, and are not the cheapest guys in the world.'"

So what's a $250 Topre when a $40 Model M's a Cadillac of keyboards?

[Rajagra]

So what's a $250 Topre when a $40 Model M's a Cadillac of keyboards?

It's a luxury yacht complete with helicopter pad and a bevy of scantily clad bathing beauties to fawn over you. Totally overpriced, of course, so anyone who enjoys such decadence is a fool. ?

[lal]

Wow, a multiline-flame *and* a link to an earlier post that proofs... something.  Webwit must be really angry

[quadibloc]

Can't we have a topic especially for people who don't own a Topre keyboard, yet want to post "expert" reviews of it,

Because if you can't have one, no one may enjoy one, right?

Given that the capacitative Model F is superior to the Model M, I see no problem in accepting that the Topre, due both to being capacitative, and having those springs under its domes, can be as good as people say it is.

The main accusation being levelled at the Topre in this thread seems to be that putting a spring under each dome, and using capacitative electronics, ought not to increase its marginal cost of manufacture all that much over that of a regular rubber dome... so it ought to be possible to buy a Realforce for less than a Unicomp.

Such a question doesn't have to come from sour grapes.

But there is still a valid answer.

Basically, the Topre design had a development cost. And the marginal cost of manufacture of a Topre keyboard is at least somewhat greater than that of an ordinary rubber dome.

Only if enough people appreciate the extra quality of a Topre to be willing to pay something extra for it - not its current price, but some premium - there's no point for them to try, by cutting prices, to expand from their current niche market, airport ticket counters and newspapers and so on, to make up for a reduction in unit margins by a significantly increased volume.

I guess a test might be this: when the Topre patents expire, do you seriously expect Logitech to run out and produce an imitation because they would think the improved feel would sell zillions? If so, it would make sense for Topre to cut prices and grow. If not, well, then it makes sense for them to stay where they are.

For that matter, haven't the Model M patents run out by now? Or at least the Model F patents, or the beam spring ones for the 3278 keyboard? Anyone out there making life tough for Unicomp? (Well, there was the infamous Mechanical Touch keyboard... but as the result achieved was apparently not a success, difficulties in execution may have been what kept that sort of competition at bay...)

[ricercar]

Disingenuous. Not straightforward or candid; giving a false appearance of frankness

[ch_123]

That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?

No? Programming is just like regular typing with more symbols (which have perfectly satisfactory locations anyway... The HHKB was designed for a command line based editor called Emacs which is notorious for it's RSI inducing key combinations. It was also based around the keyboard layout of Sun workstations, which many Unix types would have been reared on.

I'm strongly inclined to believe that their profit margin is HUGE, however. Although they don't move a particularly large volume, I'd be astounded if the manufacturing costs were beyond 20 dollars per board.

You know that small plastic ring you bought off Unicomp for $5... Do you think that even cost them 1c to make?

[MsKeyboard]

I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become, it's like listening to the arguments on French vs American wine.  The market is there to allow those products worthy of consumer appreciation to flourish, while other products, regardless of quality or innovation, stagnate and die.

Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?

[ch_123]

The main accusation being levelled at the Topre in this thread seems to be that putting a spring under each dome, and using capacitative electronics, ought not to increase its marginal cost of manufacture all that much over that of a regular rubber dome... so it ought to be possible to buy a Realforce for less than a Unicomp.

Bare in mind that an XT Model F was anywhere from $350-400. A Model M when it came out was $250 and dropped to about $100 over time. I think that the circuitry involved with a capacitive switch keyboard is far more elaborate and therefore expensive than it might appear superficially.

For that matter, haven't the Model M patents run out by now? Or at least the Model F patents, or the beam spring ones for the 3278 keyboard? Anyone out there making life tough for Unicomp? (Well, there was the infamous Mechanical Touch keyboard... but as the result achieved was apparently not a success, difficulties in execution may have been what kept that sort of competition at bay...)

They didn't even get patents for the Beam Spring in the US... I really think that the thing was so overcomplicated that they didnt need to care.

[itlnstln]

I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become

Boys, boys, boys...

[kishy]

You know that small plastic ring you bought off Unicomp for $5... Do you think that even cost them 1c to make?

IIRC I offered that before I was told it would cost anything.

Perhaps he would have assigned it a price, perhaps not.

They picked up the tab for my (couple of) international long distance calls...I look at it as me picking up the phone bill.

[microsoft windows]

Bare in mind that an XT Model F was anywhere from $350-400. A Model M when it came out was $250 and dropped to about $100 over time. I think that the circuitry involved with a capacitive switch keyboard is far more elaborate and therefore expensive than it might appear superficially.

Computers back then costed thousands upon thousands of dollars. And making circutry boards wasn't nearly as cheap as today. But that doesn't mean that it took $300 to  produce each Model F...

[ch_123]

Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?

It's sorta ... boring looking.



Compare that with a Filco. Say what you will about them, but they are an aesthetically pleasing design.

[Rajagra]

I think the DIP switches are pretty silly - SW3 disables numeric keypad? - isn't that what NumLock is for?

The switch controls whether NumLock switches on the embedded number pad. Important if you want to use an external numpad at the same time. You don't really want to hit NumLock every single time you move between the main keyboard and the numpad, do you?

[MsKeyboard]

We hope to improve our circumstances once the economy improves and everyone runs out of $15 Model M's.

[ch_123]

Computers back then costed thousands upon thousands of dollars. And making circutry boards wasn't nearly as cheap as today. But that doesn't mean that it took $300 to  produce each Model F...

Try rereading what I said. One year they're selling keyboards at $350+. The next year they're selling pretty much the same thing minus capacitive contacts for over a hundred dollars less. There's two ways you can read that -

a) IBM suddenly became very altruistic.
B) The Model Ms were much cheaper to make and therefore could be sold at lower price whilst maintaining a similar profit margin.

Which one do you think it is?

[msiegel]

Which one do you think it is?

umm.....

C) rubber dome?

[ricercar]

re-debouncing: \
The 1990s McDonnel-Douglas stealth bomber version had a Motorola 68030 beneath every key, every switch, every button, coded for the purpose of ignoring keybounce.

Makes stiffened Cherry blacks on my TG3 Popo Keyboard seem like gradeschool.

[patrickgeekhack]

I can't believe how emotional this conversation has become, it's like listening to the arguments on French vs American wine.  The market is there to allow those products worthy of consumer appreciation to flourish, while other products, regardless of quality or innovation, stagnate and die.

Taking the price argument out of this discussion, what would you like to see changed or modified in the current Realforce lineup?

Agree. I'm staying away from this discussion. Too emotional like you said. I'm just enjoying my Topre :-)

[nvarsj]

That layout just boggles my mind though. I don't understand how it's good for coding. If you were programming, wouldn't you want to have more keys so you can assign commands to them?

That's what modifier keys are for.

[carmen]

I agree the HHKB is not much of a Hacker's keyboard because of lack of configuration options and configurable extra keys at the bottom row

bollocks, vi users use : or Esc for comands, Meta and Ctrl for emacs. and Ctrl is in a way better place

what lack of configuration options? u can remap in your terminal, in emacs, in xmodmap, the fact that DIP Switches exist for a few common settings is just icing on the cake

extra keys would dig into your palms, which can currently rest on either side of spacebar

[carmen]

Guys, what's so hard about admitting that Topre... grants itself quite a bigger profit margin than some other manufacturers?

anything from japan costs about 5x as much as china. go to your supermarket, ogle the little 2 ounce tin of S&B mustard powder for $4. then look at the giant 24 ounce bag from china for 79 cents

china lowers the value of their currency to make production outsourcing attractive

also their workers are mostly a migrant resource. theres no lifetime employment and pension guarantees

with a fujitsu produced keyboard, you can rest assured some 93 year old guy is able to afford a bowl of noodles and take his grandkits out to lunch because of the 4 decades of work he put in