Author Topic: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?  (Read 3318 times)

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Offline olivierpons

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Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 07:52:08 »
Excuse me for my english which is perfectible...

Reading this:

https://www.keychatter.com/2015/03/04/ergonomic-mechanical-keyboards-a-primer-and-roundup/,

I'm wondering why they've stopped selling the Datahand Keyboard II.
I guess its very high price ($2000) was the actual problem.
I wish I had one to see if it's effective or not.



If my crowdfunding of the Ergofip is successful (2017 - January, 20th) I'm already planning on making a Datahand Keyboard-like, with new switches and using the configurator I've developped. Of course, far less than $2000 (it should be around $300).

What do you think? Could it be worth it? Pros and cons?
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 14:54:54 »
They stopped selling this thing because the learning curve is too high..


Another problem with this device , is the tenting wrist angle is still quite flat in its normal configuration..


You can tent it up in the middle surely,  but that usage style is not obvious to all the people who would buy the product,

Therefore in totality the consumer educational aspect of the device is far too high.. as you'd have to TEACH your buyers why and HOW this product is better..


Overall.. I think it's definitely workable..   


Right away though, this device has some problems in that you can't really rest your hands on it, if you want to type fast..

Because the finger tip motion on its own is not very fast..  so anytime you need a quick double letter, you'd have to rely on upper arm motion..


So for example, if you typed  le  tt er..  You'd stiffen your middle finger, and pull your arm twice to the right using mostly the bicep of your upper arm..



This is a huge level of complexity in a completely redefined technique relative to standard typing. that you'd also have to teach your users..

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 15:41:12 »
Actually, it had more problems. Reliability wasn't great, they ran into manufacturing issues, the price was too high and the company marketed its products mainly to businesses, but not very convincingly.

Offline need

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 15:55:28 »
I'm surprised no one tries to manufacture it nowadays, especially when the Chinese can basically make anything.

Offline olivierpons

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 16:08:08 »
They stopped selling this thing because the learning curve is too high..
There are some people (including me) who aren't afraid of the learning curve if the benefits are high.

Another problem with this device , is the tenting wrist angle is still quite flat in its normal configuration..
Good point. Didn't think about that, because with the Ergofip you can easily change the position

Overall.. I think it's definitely workable..   
So am I...

Right away though, this device has some problems in that you can't really rest your hands on it, if you want to type fast..

Because the finger tip motion on its own is not very fast..  so anytime you need a quick double letter, you'd have to rely on upper arm motion..

So for example, if you typed  le  tt er..  You'd stiffen your middle finger, and pull your arm twice to the right using mostly the bicep of your upper arm..

Very very interesting point... you're saying that moving your arm to press a key may be faster than moving your finger. It's not ironic, I'm not joking either: I'm actually wondering if I could measure this because it's a very interesting question: what are the quickest moves you can do that include your arms, wrists and fingers?


This is a huge level of complexity in a completely redefined technique relative to standard typing. that you'd also have to teach your users..
I got the point but I think they may be people (like me) interested in such keyboard.

IMHO the big question you've raised is: are you faster with a keyboard like this?

With my Ergofip I'm faster than with a classical keyboard, that's 100% sure, and 100% sure for everybody who is not afraid of a short learning curve (few days of training). But for a Datahand Keyboard? That's a big question... thank you very much for your answer!

Actually, it had more problems. Reliability wasn't great, they ran into manufacturing issues, the price was too high and the company marketed its products mainly to businesses, but not very convincingly.
If the price is high it has to be perfect IMHO.

I'm surprised no one tries to manufacture it nowadays, especially when the Chinese can basically make anything.
Why not make a partnership with Chinese then? That's what we are planning with the Ergofip.
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 14 January 2017, 16:25:02 »
@ olivierpons, I sent you a private message.. go to the top of the screen, click message..

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 15 January 2017, 08:16:24 »
They stopped selling this thing because the learning curve is too high..
There are some people (including me) who aren't afraid of the learning curve if the benefits are high.
The learning curve has to be justified. From what I've seen, for example the pointing in device in DataHand wasn't great to begin with.

Another problem is that lateral movements of certain digits aren't exactly natural and even independent. Which leads to the arm usage... and I've noticed negative reviews from people, that developed tendon/elbow problems from using the DataHand.

IMHO the big question you've raised is: are you faster with a keyboard like this?
Anyone, who cares about speed/efficiency, should look into automation and/or steno in the first place.

Why not make a partnership with Chinese then? That's what we are planning with the Ergofip.
I can't help myself...

Are you going to plagiarize OldDataHands' project too?

edit: fixed link
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 January 2017, 04:07:54 by davkol »

Offline olivierpons

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 16 January 2017, 15:21:04 »
Hi davkol,

I'm sorry if you didn't read this post, where I explain that the only thing Ergofip has in common with the Ergodox is 80% of the design, and everything else is different, including the PCB and the design (even the keycaps and the keys which arent Cherry MX...), but this topic isn't about explaining what are the good things of the Ergofip that make it unique.

Anyway, this is totally out of topic, negative and uselessly naughty attitude. I've sent you a private message, please answer me there, it would be nicer for people interested in the pros and cons of the Datahand Keyboard. Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2017, 04:44:52 by olivierpons »
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 16 January 2017, 16:38:23 »
If you think I'm making money with the Ergofip, here are the numbers: selling 100 keyboard = $30000. With those $30000 we'll ask the French government for a $30000 funds which will bring us to $60000.
* davkol breathes heavily

I don't even know what to think anymore.

I'm just trying to bring my ideas and make the world a better place to leave, and make people happy.
I don't understand how a weird crowdfunding campaign (or milking the government) makes the world a better place. Esp. compared to actual work in the bazaar.

FWIW I believe the keyboard.io campaign is a prime example of development and crowdfunding done right. Even the ErgoDox EZ is done very professionally.

edit: fixed link
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 January 2017, 04:07:21 by davkol »

Offline keytohopiness

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 16 January 2017, 17:27:33 »

Offline olivierpons

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 16 January 2017, 23:30:04 »
@davkol This is totally out of topic, negative and uselessly naughty attitude. I've sent you a private message, please answer me there, it would be nicer for people interested in the pros and cons of the Datahand Keyboard. Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2017, 04:44:09 by olivierpons »
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 17 January 2017, 04:05:07 »
Oh dear... You're making claims, such as that it's not true, but the page was captured by Archive.org. Anyone can check for themselves, that its contents were ridiculous and you started doing damage control only after getting called out.

Quote
Here are the main features of this keyboard.
Features you’ll hardly find somewhere else.
And you will find those features all together only in the Ergofip©.
No jokes.
It's the only keyboard in the world which has those features.


Healthy
Reduces carpal tunnel syndrome with an adequate position of the hands.

Good-looking
You'll be the only one to have such a pretty keyboard!

Fast
Mechanical keyboards are known to have a faster response time.

Easy to configure
It's so easy you won't believe it. Only at first sight.

Silent? Clicky? Noisy?
We'll provide it with four different keys/switches: black, red, brown or blue. It's up to you!

Macros
You'll be able to fully customize your keyboard. And to add "macros" so when you press one key, many ones are sent to the computer!

Quote
The Ergofip will help you to be in the right position: it reduces (maybe eliminates, which is the case for Olivier Pons, the creator of the Ergodox©) the carpal syndrome.

Quote
Designed by actual professionnals.
We're not only a team of keyboard enthusiastics.
We're professionnals too.
The electronic design is made for durability
For electronicians this picture is worth a thousand words about the overall quality.

I can't even imagine, how this could happen by accident. It isn't useless to post about it either—it serves potential customers as a warning about credibility or competency of the business.

Offline olivierpons

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 17 January 2017, 04:27:55 »
This is totally out of topic, negative and uselessly naughty attitude. I've sent you a private message, please answer me there, it would be nicer for people interested in the pros and cons of the Datahand Keyboard. Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 February 2017, 04:43:54 by olivierpons »
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 17 January 2017, 05:03:21 »
There are two sides: the business and the customers. You seem to be forgetting about the party, that isn't your business.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 289
Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 24 March 2017, 09:54:58 »
Oh dear... You're making claims, such as that it's not true, but the page was captured by Archive.org. Anyone can check for themselves, that its contents were ridiculous and you started doing damage control only after getting called out.


Oh no. After I bumped up this Pons guy's thread, I read your Archive link Davkol, and it really raises some doubts.

So originally this was an ergodox layout.

But what about the keycaps and the RGB? The ergodox doesn't have LED support does it, so in order to have that keyboard appear like that Pons must have gotten his own ergodox PCB and custom keycaps made. The project could very well still be legit.

Do enlighten me. I'm quite happy to learn more as there are many things I don't know about keyboards.

Offline davkol

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 24 March 2017, 15:42:59 »
Is it necessary to bump that? I mean they have a basically failed crowdfunding campaign, which speaks for itself.

(I expect another round of pms from the guy, calling me naughty and what not.)

Offline olivierpons

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 24 March 2017, 17:25:54 »
You didn't answer. Please answer the question.

Maybe you didn't read?

"But what about the keycaps and the RGB? The ergodox doesn't have LED support does it, so in order to have that keyboard appear like that Pons must have gotten his own ergodox PCB and custom keycaps made. The project could very well still be legit."
Ergofip: a high-tech keyboard that is easy to install, easy to grasp and configure.
A keyboard inspired by the Ergodox, fully open-source, but totally re-written from scratch.
- Configure what will be printed on your keycaps (custom transparent keycaps!)
- International configurator
- Choose your switches
- Create your macros: configure it to send a whole message to your mates in a game with one key press! Open the online configurator and create all the macros you need.
- Share your configuration

Offline keytohopiness

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Re: Datahand Keyboard II: why and why not?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 24 March 2017, 17:46:49 »
Is it necessary to bump that? I mean they have a basically failed crowdfunding campaign, which speaks for itself.

(I expect another round of pms from the guy, calling me naughty and what not.)

Oh, that answers why the Datahand is no more.   :))