Author Topic: Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?  (Read 10184 times)

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Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:03:48 »
I've always used MS Natural keyboards but have always wanted a keyboard with mechanical switches.  After much research and feedback from this forum, I purchased a Northgate Omnikey ergonomic keyboard (white Alps).  After using it for a while, however, I found that it was really aggravating my RSI (carpal tunnel).  They keys seem to require much more force than the MS Natural 4000.  I had to stop using the Northgate and I'm back the the MS.  

During my research period, I actually bought the Kinesis Advantage (Cherry browns).  They layout was problematic for me, but more specifically, the F-Keys are rubber checklet-style keys for some reason.  I'm a programmer and the software that I develop in makes heavy use of modifier keys/F-Keys combinations.  The rubber F-Keys just about killed my productivity.

Here's my question for people who have experience with RSI: which is less stressful?  Split-layout keyboards like the MS Natural or Cherry browns?  Essentially, I'm wondering if a standard layout with Cherry browns would feel better than rubber dome "ergonomic" layout.

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:14:04 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150010
I've always used MS Natural keyboards but have always wanted a keyboard with mechanical switches. After much research and feedback from this forum, I purchased a Northgate Omnikey ergonomic keyboard (white Alps). After using it for a while, however, I found that it was really aggravating my RSI (carpal tunnel). They keys seem to require much more force than the MS Natural 4000. I had to stop using the Northgate and I'm back the the MS.
 
During my research period, I actually bought the Kinesis Advantage (Cherry browns). They layout was problematic for me, but more specifically, the F-Keys are rubber checklet-style keys for some reason. I'm a programmer and the software that I develop in makes heavy use of modifier keys/F-Keys combinations. The rubber F-Keys just about killed my productivity.
 
Here's my question for people who have experience with RSI: which is less stressful? Split-layout keyboards like the MS Natural or Cherry browns? Essentially, I'm wondering if a standard layout with Cherry browns would feel better than rubber dome "ergonomic" layout.

I used to use split keyboards all the time for RSI reasons (including the MS Natural 4000, which I still like layout and design-wise).  The change I made that fixed my problem: a new mouse.  I now use a Filco with a standard layout with an MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 and have no problems with wrist pain.  I found that the keyboard really didn't make much difference in the end, because you can change the distance you sit from the keyboard which changes your arm angle, so the split, in and of itself doesn't make a whole lot of difference.  Unless you use something adjustable like the Cherry MX 5000, uTron, or IBM M15, you probably  won't affect your RSI condition much with just the split alone.  The problem is, with the exception of the uTron, those keyboards are out of production, all of them are very expensive when you can find them, and the uTron is only available in Asia.


Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:20:35 »
I actually bought the MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 at the same time as the Omnikey.  The software kept popping up messages saying that the signal was low (even though the receiver was mere inches from the mouse).  I gave up using it for that reason alone.  Has anyone else found this issue (or a resolution to it)?

Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:28:25 »
What sort of mouse do you use at the moment?

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:30:22 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150016
I actually bought the MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 at the same time as the Omnikey. The software kept popping up messages saying that the signal was low (even though the receiver was mere inches from the mouse). I gave up using it for that reason alone. Has anyone else found this issue (or a resolution to it)?

It might be a bad receiver.  I have had three of them with no issues.  My receiver is/was about 2 feet away in all circumstances, but I don't have any issues farther out as well.


Offline snerd

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:34:31 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150010
I've always used MS Natural keyboards but have always wanted a keyboard with mechanical switches.  After much research and feedback from this forum, I purchased a Northgate Omnikey ergonomic keyboard (white Alps).  After using it for a while, however, I found that it was really aggravating my RSI (carpal tunnel).  They keys seem to require much more force than the MS Natural 4000.  I had to stop using the Northgate and I'm back the the MS.  

During my research period, I actually bought the Kinesis Advantage (Cherry browns).  They layout was problematic for me, but more specifically, the F-Keys are rubber checklet-style keys for some reason.  I'm a programmer and the software that I develop in makes heavy use of modifier keys/F-Keys combinations.  The rubber F-Keys just about killed my productivity.

Here's my question for people who have experience with RSI: which is less stressful?  Split-layout keyboards like the MS Natural or Cherry browns?  Essentially, I'm wondering if a standard layout with Cherry browns would feel better than rubber dome "ergonomic" layout.


I went from an MS natural to cherry browns a couple of weeks ago.

I don't have RSI, but years ago I started getting wrist pain when I was lifting weights and going through a CS degree on a flat keyboard. The difference with the natural keyboard and the lower tension on my wrists was amazing.

Recently, I got sick and tired of the shift and ctrl keys binding on my Natural, as well as the hollow plastic feel/sound, and having to mash the keys to get them to register.  It is also a pain going between the flat keyboards at work and the natural at home.

Oddly, I got the cherry browns and started lift weights again on nearly the same day, so my test is not very good, but I did notice the extra tension on my wrists almost immediately. I have a wide stance, big hands, and this standard keyboard layouts are way too cramped.

The good news is: the thing is so easy to type on. I almost never miss a key (less hand movement). It requires very little pressure, and it's pretty easy to tell when the key has registered. I think the trade off is worth it for me right now, because I don't type at home nearly as much as I used to. It also looks great on my minimal desk, and doesn't make they racket that my Natural did.

I actually bought into the Topre thing, and I'm going to try an 87U out in a few days. If I like it, I'll take the Filco to work. I, too, yearn for an MS natural with light activation mechanical keys that weighs 4lb.

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:40:45 »
I use an Intellimouse Optical now.  I know that a wide keyboard is bad for RSI because it makes you reach for the mouse, but I'm a programmer for a company that makes accounting software.  That means that I need a number pad.  My thought was that I might be able to find a Cherry brown keyboard with a number pad that's narrower than the MS Natural 4000.  Any suggestions on models?

Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:40:50 »
If you can find a Cherry G80-5000 you can have the best of both worlds. They aren't that well built however.

Offline DreymaR

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:42:50 »
Colemak. Very nice.

Shortcut keys. Preferably a keyboard enhancer like the 'extend' mode of Portable Keyboard Layout that lets you use arrow keys and lots of other keys from the home position.

If you don't get a keyboard with a more ergonomic stagger, fix the worst problem of the lower left hand by moving the ZXCVB keys one key to the left (if you only have a 'US'-type/ANSI board, then the Z will be pushed away - otherwise it's the VK_102 key) and the remaining key back to the middle. It allows you to keep your wrists straight while maintaining your familiar fingering (minus the 'Z' if you're an ANSI board user).

And the Datahand looks nice if you can afford it - I haven't tried it myself.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:48:20 by DreymaR »
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:44:12 »
I, too, think that the keyboard is not the culprit, but the mouse. I used to leave my hand on the mouse. The MS Laser 6000 mouse tend to have signal issues. When this happens, I just move my receiver by an inch.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
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Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:44:19 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150028
I use an Intellimouse Optical now.  I know that a wide keyboard is bad for RSI because it makes you reach for the mouse, but I'm a programmer for a company that makes accounting software.  That means that I need a number pad.  My thought was that I might be able to find a Cherry brown keyboard with a number pad that's narrower than the MS Natural 4000.  Any suggestions on models?

Get a Tenkeyless Filco, and a seperate Num pad. Put the numpad to the left of the keyboard. Depends on how often you need to use the numpad, and I assume you're right handed?

Offline overdriver

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:44:24 »
Quote from: snerd;150024
I, too, yearn for an MS natural with light activation mechanical keys that weighs 4lb.


yeah.. this would be perfect for me. only problem MS-4000 I have owned was.. it's 3rd one. MS-4000 was perfect for me but its rubber dome is not high quality.
OmniKey 101 - the perfect keyboard
Chicony KB-5181 - SMK Monterey Blue switch
Cherry G86-6241OEUAGSA - Cherry Brown switch
IBM M 1378160(Ambra)
Dell AT101w / AEK II

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:50:32 »
Yes, I'm right handed and I use the numpad all the time for unit testing the accounting software.  I'll try the wireless mouse again today and try a few positions for the receiver.

Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:52:58 »
Ever consider a trackball?

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 09:58:47 »
Quote from: ch_123;150043
Ever consider a trackball?


I'm up for anything at this point.  How does scrolling work with a trackball (i.e., something comparable to a scrollwheel on a mouse)?

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:00:46 »
The Cherry brown Filcos seem to be out of stock at elitekeyboards.  Are there other reputable places to get them?

Offline snerd

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:12:10 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150046
The Cherry brown Filcos seem to be out of stock at elitekeyboards.  Are there other reputable places to get them?


http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=239&title=filco-fkb104meb-other-input-devices

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:14:10 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150045
I'm up for anything at this point. How does scrolling work with a trackball (i.e., something comparable to a scrollwheel on a mouse)?

The Kensington Expert uses a "scroll ring" that spins arounf the ball. Others, particularly thumb-centric trackballs, use some implementation of a regular scroll wheel like a mouse.


Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:14:47 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150045
I'm up for anything at this point.  How does scrolling work with a trackball (i.e., something comparable to a scrollwheel on a mouse)?

The two most popular trackballs around here would be the Logitech Trackman and the Kensington Expert Mouse. The Logitech is shaped like a normal mouse so it can be used in a similar manner, and the Kensington has a nifty scroll wheel around the ball.





Both are available in either wired or wireless versions, but with a trackball, I can't imagine why you'd need a wireless one unless you were going for one of those completely wire-free solutions.

Quote from: Jcooper01;150046
The Cherry brown Filcos seem to be out of stock at elitekeyboards.  Are there other reputable places to get them?

Not in the US. Asides from waiting for them to come back into stock (should be within a few weeks) your only other option is to get them shipped in from Japan, which is more expensive, and can be potentially messy if something were to go wrong. Alternatively, you could consider one of the Topre Realforce boards. Like the Cherry Browns, they're quiet 45g swtiches, but most who have tried both seem to prefer the Topres. Very expensive however - almost twice the price of the Filco.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:23:04 by ch_123 »

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:17:00 »
You might also look at something like this.


Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 10:18:03 »
I read somewhere or other that those things have some driver issues. I'm not sure they've been resolved yet though.

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 11:34:21 »
Quote from: ripster;150062
1 finger Nirvana (I coulda worded that differently....).

At least it's not the "5-knuckle shuffle."


Offline djones

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 15:45:23 »
@Jcooper
1) realize that the keyboard is only one part of dealing with RSI-- posture, keyboard/wrist position, fitness, posture, stretching, posture, and posture are equally, if not more important.
2) out-of-the-box, MS ergo keyboards have fairly light and tolerable switches for a rubber membrane board. However, you'll have to replace it every few months as the rubber gets old. compare to cherries which last years.
3) reevaluate your typing technique. if you're doing key combos with one hand, stop it. slow down your typing speed.
4) Different types of RSI call for different types of solutions. Have you had your condition diagnosed by a hand therapist/chiropractor/etc? Chances are its not carpal tunnel. In my case my RSI was/is primarily in the left elbow and the solution was to get a very light board (mx11800's) and only type with 3 fingers on my left hand.
5) I prefer the kensingtons over the logitech thumb-trackballs because it forces you to use your arm in your mousing-movement.  logitech trackman marbles aren't bad though (and they're cheap)

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:35:00 »
@djones: Thank you for your response.  I do know that the keyboard is only part of the equation, but it's one that I've found makes a noticeable difference in my level of discomfort.  For example, the white Alps really aggravated it.  I've tried to arrange my workspace as well.  I'm actually quite a big fan of the MS ergo keyboards and have been for a long time.  I just feel like bottoming out is adding stress to each keystroke.  That's good advice about the key combinations -- I'll definitely try, but old habits are hard to break.

I have had my condition diagnosed by a hand surgeon -- it is carpal tunnel.

I know that a lot of people have said to focus on the mouse, but I get numbness and weakness in my left hand approximately equally to my right hand, which is why I'm looking at keyboards.  I use shortcut keys almost exclusively and tend not to use the mouse much anyway.

Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 20:48:08 »
Well, surgeons do tend to recommend surgery :), but he actually recommended that I change my habits first.  Then steroid injections.  Then surgery.

I'm trying to avoid surgery at all costs.

Offline hyperlinked

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 21:31:18 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150188
Well, surgeons do tend to recommend surgery :), but he actually recommended that I change my habits first.  Then steroid injections.  Then surgery.

That's a good surgeon. One problem with surgery as the primary solution is that it may not make the problem go away for good especially if you continue to have really bad habits after the surgery. It happened once and it can happen again. People who get true blue carpal tunnel are often susceptible to it in the first place unless your carpal tunnel syndrome had a trauma component to it. Surgery won't change your genes. If you can change your habits, maybe you can beat having surgery. If you can't, it'll improve the odds that you'll stay better.

I echo djones's comments to which you've already nodded in agreement to. There are a lot of factors in play and not every Carpal Tunnel Syndrome case is the same and if you broaden it out to RSI, it gets to be an even bigger crapshoot. People in healthcare (which I used to be) don't even always have the same thing in mind when they say RSI and it only gets less precise from there.

What's your workstation setup look like? A good chair may be a useful part of your ergonomic arsenal. Give everything reasonable a try. Any form of RSI is likely a cumulative trauma disorder and the solution may be a cumulative answer.

Speaking just for myself personally, I have a pretty well tuned workstation, but the sheer volume that I type makes occasional pain inevitable and in those cases, I can't say enough good things about speech recognition. I'm a programmer too. I can't program with speech recognition, but I can sure compose my emails and other writing with it.

BTW, to whoever it was that mentioned having difficulty reaching for a mouse, you can get a keyboard tray that has a separated mouse tray that rests slightly above and in front of the keyboard. This allows you to bring the mouse closer enough to you that it makes a noticeable difference in how much you have to reach for it.

Also to whoever mentioned that you can change your arm angle by sitting differently, that's often not a great long term strategy because while that may relieve some discomfort in your wrist, you're really just offsetting it to your neck or back.
« Last Edit: Mon, 11 January 2010, 21:36:22 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline Rajagra

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 11 January 2010, 22:29:33 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150188
Well, surgeons do tend to recommend surgery :), but he actually recommended that I change my habits first.  Then steroid injections.  Then surgery.

I'm trying to avoid surgery at all costs.


I seem to recall the injections are not entirely risk-free. If you take that route ask about the possible risks first. Maybe you already have, or been told, I'm just checking.

Offline hyperlinked

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 01:17:58 »
Quote from: Rajagra;150212
I seem to recall the injections are not entirely risk-free. If you take that route ask about the possible risks first. Maybe you already have, or been told, I'm just checking.

Yeah, have you seen the size of the cannon they shove into your joint? I've never had one done on me, but I've seen plenty of people after they just got a steroid injection and they were sporting some pretty obvious pocks. It can't be any fun. Hopefully they have less painful ways of doing it since I gave up my 8 to 5 habit of hanging out in clinics around ten years ago.

Steroids injections aren't good for the ligaments if you get too many of them. You can only get a max number of injections over a set period of time because they affect the integrity of your joints and ligaments.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 January 2010, 01:20:31 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline djones

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 05:41:16 »
@JCooper, have the surgeon refer you to a hand/physical therapist. From what I've gathered from dealing with my own problems, most RSI is generally a problem of multiple problems and that most people are mis/underdiagnosed initially-- which is the reason most people are unhappy with surgeries that address only a single problem.

I was initially diagnosed (by a hand surgeon) with carpal tunnel and tennis elbow on my left side-- and indeed the cortisone shots did help a little my increasing moblity, but my chiropractor discovered the numbness in my left hand was actually coming from my neck.  Carpal tunnel surgery therefore would not have helped in my case.

In fact, if you are getting numbness equally in your right/left hand, that's a sign that something maybe wrong with your neck since a problem there would affect both sides equally...  and this would not be caught by hand surgeon who only looks from the shoulder down.

And if bottoming out on a MS ergo (in good condition) is bothering you, imho you're probably better off with learning how to type lightly (without bottoming out) on a mechanical board like the brown cherries..
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 January 2010, 05:48:26 by djones »

Offline DreymaR

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 07:17:01 »
You shouldn't get many steroid injections, no. But one or a few can be invaluable in the right situation.

Other than that, there is one good measure against carpal tunnel syndrome: Building circulation. Training your muscles from the shoulder down on high-rep, low-load regimes is what worked for me, and furthermore the training stays with you so you won't easily get RSI ever again! Best thing is to get a good ergophysiotherapist to look at your case, because the training should be optimized for your body.
Better burden you cannot carry than man-wisdom much ~ Hávamál

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 08:36:25 »
I don't know if it's psychological or not, but cod liver oil helped in my case. I've also changed some of my habit, like not resting my hand on my mouse as well as using keyboard shortcut as much as I can.

If you rest your wrists while typing, try avoid doing this because it adds more pressure in the wrist area.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline hyperlinked

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 11:20:55 »
Quote from: djones;150251
@JCooper, have the surgeon refer you to a hand/physical therapist.

That is what I used to be (physical therapist).

Quote from: djones;150251
RSI is generally a problem of multiple problems and that most people are mis/underdiagnosed initially-- which is the reason most people are unhappy with surgeries that address only a single problem.

Resounding agreement here.

Quote from: djones;150251
my chiropractor discovered the numbness in my left hand was actually coming from my neck.  Carpal tunnel surgery therefore would not have helped in my case.

It seems that people understand that a surgeon may be all too ready to operate. In a similar vein, if you're a chiropractor, every problem looks like it's originating from a spinal nerve root impingement caused by spinal misalignment. Quite ironically, chiropractors (in the US) are especially prone to overvalue the opinion of their own specialty because they practice in isolation from the rest of the healthcare universe and aren't confronted with opposing expertise on a day in and day out basis.

Who's right? Possibly everyone.

Quote from: djones;150251
In fact, if you are getting numbness equally in your right/left hand, that's a sign that something maybe wrong with your neck since a problem there would affect both sides equally...

It's quite possible that this was true in your case, but the fact that someone has numbness in both hands is no certain indicator of the source of the problem. As you said very correctly up above, RSI is complex and there are often multiple sources of RSI.

Quote from: djones;150251
and this would not be caught by hand surgeon who only looks from the shoulder down.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the hand surgeons. Like all other specialists, they certainly have a tendency to see the world through the lens of their own speciality, but hand surgery ranks as one of the more difficult surgeries that can be performed and hand surgeons are a subset of orthopedic surgeons and orthopedic surgeons are amongst the group of surgeons most likely to be working in close contact with physical therapists on a day in and day out basis.

The moral of the story isn't that hand surgeons are right or that they suck and just want to hack up your digits. The moral is that every person needs to be very very invovlved in his or her own healthcare decisions because the human body is so complex of an instrument that no one person can possibly see the entire field of evidence and that includes the patient himself. It's possible that everyone here who managed to recover from RSI without surgery could have been arm wrestling champions by now had they chosen surgery as their course of treatment. We just don't know what the alternative may have brought.

In general, it's better to seek conservative treatments like physical therapy, occupational therapy, or chriopractic care first because they're not as likely to cause permanent damage if the treatments don't work as expected. You can't "un-surgery" someone. On the other hand, sometimes the opposite is true. If someone has a problem that needs to be fixed by surgery, delaying that surgery could cause further trauma to the nerves and reduce a person's chances of a good recovery with or without surgery.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 January 2010, 11:39:59 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline djones

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 11:58:07 »
@hyperlinked- I certainly didn't mean to play doctor or dismiss doctors. I agree that same symptons on boths sides could be something entirely different... I know a patient who had nerve impingement around the collar bones (I forgot the name, but there's a bundle of nerves that runs through there that gets compacted if you slouch your shoulders forward.), which gave him numbness in both hands.  Point is: the problem may be somewhere you wouldn't expect and may be far away from the hands.

And yea, in my case the hand surgeon wasn't exactly wrong... he was right I have carpal tunnel-- but that was only the tip of the iceberg in my case. So yes, seek out multiple opinions for multiple body parts.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:05:56 by djones »

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:01:51 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;150327
Like all other specialists, they certainly have a tendency to see the world through the lens of their own speciality...


I have to agreed with everything you've said. We are all biased in a certain way. We are influenced by our values, beliefs, and experience. Moreover, we very often see what we want to see because we notice events which confirms our beliefs more than we notice events which discredit our beliefs. For example, we tend to notice and recall couples who were able to conceive a child after they have adopted one more than couples who were not able to conceive a child after adoption.
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Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:20:47 »
Someone correct me if I'm completely wrong, but I was under the impression that a Physiotherapist was a doctor properly qualified in such things, whereas a Chiropractor doesn't have to be as qualified (or possibly not qualified at all, depending on local laws). It's like the distinction between a dietitian and a nutritionist.

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:39:12 »
Or the distinction between a real doctor and a hack.
 
 
*ducks for cover*


Offline ch_123

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 12:42:58 »
That was basically what I was insinuating =P

Offline djones

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 13:13:22 »
Quote from: itlnstln;150347
Or the distinction between a real doctor and a hack.
 
 
*ducks for cover*


There are schools which offer doctor's degrees in chiropractics... its a 5 year postgrad degree just like the MD; and at least in california you have to be certified and degreed to call yourself one, afaik.  And yes, there are probably more quacks amongst chiropractors, so shop around.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 12 January 2010, 14:38:00 »
Quote from: djones;150358
There are schools which offer doctor's degrees in chiropractics... its a 5 year postgrad degree just like the MD; and at least in california you have to be certified and degreed to call yourself one, afaik.  And yes, there are probably more quacks amongst chiropractors, so shop around.


You have to shop around for sure. Some of them are there for the money only even if they know they cannot really help you. I've been there.
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Offline hyperlinked

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 02:42:41 »
Quote from: djones;150339
@hyperlinked- I certainly didn't mean to play doctor or dismiss doctors. I agree that same symptons on boths sides could be something entirely different...
No problem. I hope it didn't seem like I was picking on you. It was intended to be a generalized reality check to everyone. I could tell that you had a broader view on this subject than any isolated comments may seem to suggest.

Quote from: djones;150339
I know a patient who had nerve impingement around the collar bones (I forgot the name, but there's a bundle of nerves that runs through there that gets compacted if you slouch your shoulders forward.), which gave him numbness in both hands.
That would probably be Thoracic Outlet Syndrome... another controversial member of the "Syndrome" family of diagnoses.

Quote from: djones;150339
And yea, in my case the hand surgeon wasn't exactly wrong... he was right I have carpal tunnel-- but that was only the tip of the iceberg in my case. So yes, seek out multiple opinions for multiple body parts.
I'm glad you found your way back to health. I hope you stay there.

@patrickgeekhack: I remember hearing some time back that Chiropractors in Canada are accepted as part of the mainstream healthcare system. Is that true? Do you know if that changes how they practice?
-

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Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 09:11:54 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;150460

@patrickgeekhack: I remember hearing some time back that Chiropractors in Canada are accepted as part of the mainstream healthcare system. Is that true? Do you know if that changes how they practice?


I don't know what is going on in the other provinces, but in Ontario it used to be partly covered by Ontario Health Insurance Programme. It is not anymore. People either have to pay for the service themselves or get refunded by private insurance. For sure, they need to be a licensed chiropractor. I find that most of them don't care about the welfare of the patients, but about the money the patients bring in.
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Offline hyperlinked

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 09:37:54 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;150496
For sure, they need to be a licensed chiropractor. I find that most of them don't care about the welfare of the patients, but about the money the patients bring in.


There are a lot of good chiropractors out there, but their reputations are dragged down by the ones who are more about marketing than medicine and by the ones who overreach the limits of their own specialty by trying to be the only doctor you'll ever need. In the US, I believe part of this problem lies in the alternative medicine status of chiropractors. If you can't get paid by insurance and most MD's refuse to refer people to you, you've got to push your services. Few MD's in the US have to be businessmen as well as doctors. You can't say the same for DC's.
-

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Offline Jcooper01

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:09:28 »
OK, so I have been using my MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 for 2 days now and it's much better than last time I tried it.  I think that the wood grain on my desk was messing it up before (I have it on a pad now).

I also ordered a keyboard/mouse tray and a Filco keyboard with Cherry browns.
@kyamei -- I would have bought it from you, but my company is paying for it, so they want to get it new from a retailer.

Hopefully this will help!

Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:20:59 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150504
@kyamei -- I would have bought it from you, but my company is paying for it, so they want to get it new from a retailer.

Nice.  My company paid for mine, too.  Well, they paid me, and I paid elitekeyboards; probably not the same thing.


Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:16:01 »
Quote from: Jcooper01;150504
OK, so I have been using my MS Natural Wireless Laser Mouse 6000 for 2 days now and it's much better than last time I tried it.  I think that the wood grain on my desk was messing it up before (I have it on a pad now).

I also ordered a keyboard/mouse tray and a Filco keyboard with Cherry browns.
@kyamei -- I would have bought it from you, but my company is paying for it, so they want to get it new from a retailer.

Hopefully this will help!

I wish my company would pay for my keyboard. Well, the company will pay for ergo keyboard, but unlikely for a Topre or a Filco keyboard. In short, unless I want an ergo keyboard, I have to use whatever comes with the computer or buy my own.
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Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:21:20 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;150555
I wish my company would pay for my keyboard. Well, the company will pay for ergo keyboard, but unlikely for a Topre or a Filco keyboard. In short, unless I want an ergo keyboard, I have to use whatever comes with the computer or buy my own.

Make them buy you a uTron.


Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:37:07 »
Quote from: itlnstln;150558
Make them buy you a uTron.


What switch does the uTron use?
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Offline itlnstln

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 12:38:44 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;150566
What switch does the uTron use?

Topre.


Offline patrickgeekhack

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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 13 January 2010, 21:35:48 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;150497
There are a lot of good chiropractors out there, but their reputations are dragged down by the ones who are more about marketing than medicine and by the ones who overreach the limits of their own specialty by trying to be the only doctor you'll ever need. In the US, I believe part of this problem lies in the alternative medicine status of chiropractors. If you can't get paid by insurance and most MD's refuse to refer people to you, you've got to push your services. Few MD's in the US have to be businessmen as well as doctors. You can't say the same for DC's.


The bad ones are always more easily noticed than the good ones. We expect them to do their job correctly according to the norm. It's only when they "deviate" that we notice them. I went to see one because of pain between my ribs because my friends thought that a chiropractor could help me. But after a few sessions, the pain did not go away not even a bit. When I asked him about this, the kept avoiding direct replies. I then stopped seeing him. His secretary kept calling. I read somewhere from another Chiropractor recommending seeing another one if one's current chiropractor wants to see him or her on a permanent basis.

I then went to see a general practitioner who prescribed anti-inflammatory. My pain was gone within two days.
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Which is better (for carpal tunnel)?
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 14 January 2010, 17:47:51 »
Trackballs tend to not have scrolling wheels, but they sometimes have click-and-hold buttons.
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