Author Topic: Truly Ergenomic  (Read 45780 times)

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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #100 on: Sat, 16 October 2010, 08:31:04 »
I prefer devices that run off battery-powered NVRAM ... like PC mobos.  You can always press the reset button or pop the battery out for a few seconds/minutes to "wipe" your borky settings and start factory clean.

Offline calavera

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« Reply #101 on: Sat, 16 October 2010, 19:58:12 »
I wont pre-order but this is very interesting. Except the location of the four keys near the left hand palm..

Offline keyb_gr

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« Reply #102 on: Sun, 17 October 2010, 13:27:22 »
Quote from: muchadoaboutnothing;233936
It's not the fact that there ARE reviews, it's the wording. It's clearly the same guy making them all up. The writing style is quite frankly baffling. Capitalization is wrong, grammar is sometimes wrong, misspellings ("I am amaze with the simplicity of its unique design."). The writing style is consistently bad for every review.

Plus, science. All of the female named reviewers reviews judged together:
Show Image

It's obvious that this was written by a guy when going by the first sentence alone. The marketing type, too. I don't need the Gender Genie for that, and I'm not even a native speaker.
Hardware in signatures clutters Google search results. There should be a field in the profile for that (again).

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Offline unicomp

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« Reply #103 on: Sun, 17 October 2010, 16:08:23 »
Isn't this board basically a flattened version of Kinesis Advantage? It seems to have similar arrow positions, thumb backspace, etc.

What makes this 'healthier' than any of the keyboards listed?

Why are they comparing the 'j to arrow' distance? OK, using the arrow keys is far away from the home position, however I usually find that the arrow keys are used together and so it is not particularly inconvenient to move the whole hand.

FAQ page with no question marks? (Edit: actually this is literal, I went to the FAQ page and used Ctrl+F '?' and got no results).

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #104 on: Sun, 17 October 2010, 17:10:42 »
I was going to say the Kinesis is a lot bigger, but the difference in width is only 16.5" vs 12.9". I'm surprised.

I think the advantage of the TEK is that they've removed a lot of the stupid and unhealthy aspects of conventional boards, while keeping it looking, well, still much like a conventional keyboard. If you took one of these into work and someone else had to use your PC they probably wouldn't mind. It's quite simple and logically laid out. The Kinesis would be more of an obstacle for them. Even if the hurdle is mainly psychological.

The TEK is a fair bit cheaper too.

I'm not sure how they can justify claiming it is more ergonomic than the Datahand, Kinesis and Maltron. That's a bit cheeky. But I do think it will be very good.

Oh, and is it flat? There isn't any info on that. Will we be able to swap keys between rows to match a new layout we've programmed in, for example?
« Last Edit: Sun, 17 October 2010, 17:13:06 by Rajagra »

Offline unicomp

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« Reply #105 on: Sun, 17 October 2010, 17:23:06 »
Fair enough. I'm not sure if it is flat or not, I was mainly just comparing it to the Kinesis. The price is better however I don't think it has swayed me yet.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #106 on: Sun, 17 October 2010, 19:07:38 »
Quote from: Rajagra;235259

I think the advantage of the TEK is that they've removed a lot of the stupid and unhealthy aspects of conventional boards, while keeping it looking, well, still much like a conventional keyboard.


what would you say qualifies as this?

as an example i played around with my modded board and i put a enter key in between my ergo split and it rarely gets used, in fact i'm trying to tell my brain to hit it right now but i still default to using the right pinky.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #107 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 00:08:48 »
Quote from: Lanx;235306
what would you say qualifies as this?

as an example i played around with my modded board and i put a enter key in between my ergo split and it rarely gets used, in fact i'm trying to tell my brain to hit it right now but i still default to using the right pinky.

Yes, but that's because you still have an enter key at your right pinky :)

I typed those two enters with my right thumb just now.

Offline Parak

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« Reply #108 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 00:29:25 »
All joking aside, I actually wish this was real, as I'd be all over it :(

Offline Forsaken

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« Reply #109 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 06:04:47 »
It's a nice concept, and looks good, but to say it's more ergonomic than a datahand or kinesis advantage is just absurd.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #110 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 07:57:14 »
Quote from: Lanx;235306
what would you say qualifies as this?

The main problem is the conventional arrangement of keys and the fingers we are taught to use for each key:


This is a simple pattern that is easy to teach, but results in the left hand having to move and/or be positioned awkwardly and very differently to the right hand. Also note that the horizontal offset between rows is not even or symmetrical, so you can't simply remap keys. For example the following doesn't really work, because, e.g., moving the left middle finger from D to E requires 9/16" horizontal movement, compared to the right middle finger only going 3/16" horizontally. You simply cannot use a normal keyboard in a symmetrical way.



The TrulyErgonomic has done something that is mind-crushingly obvious. They've given each hand five columns of four keys with the columns aligned pointing at the elbow. Nearly all commonly used characters are in this area. (Only exceptions are / ? and - but they are put very close by.)

Bingo. The problem of ulnar deviation is solved. Achieves the same result as the Kinesis without having an oversized board. I would argue the TEK does this in a better way than the Kinesis. Having the forearms angled inwards is a more natural, relaxed position for me.

And I'm going to repeat this: having the shift keys right next to the little fingers is pure gold. For intensive typing of text this will reduce hand gymnastics to practically zero.

Possible finger map; not sure how best to hit key between B and N though:
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:48:59 by Rajagra »

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #111 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:09:02 »
Best of luck Rajagra. I await your review once you get it.

I'm not a believer yet myself. The layout sounds good in theory but execution/reality often changes things.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #112 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:46:02 »
My only concern is whether it happens. If it arrives, I'll be happy with it. It has Cherry switches (browns for me) in a sensible physical layout. Dual mode PS/2 and USB. NKRO and it's programmable if I want to change the layout for any reason. (Oh, yes, programmability also gives me a Colemak keyboard I can use at any machine.) What's not to love?
Fingers crossed they come through.

I may even remap my existing setup in advance to get used to that way of shifting. :smile:
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 October 2010, 08:53:42 by Rajagra »

Offline Sam

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« Reply #113 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 13:42:25 »
Quote from: Rajagra;235442

The TrulyErgonomic has done something that is mind-crushingly obvious. They've given each hand five columns of four keys with the columns aligned pointing at the elbow. Nearly all commonly used characters are in this area. (Only exceptions are / ? and - but they are put very close by.)

Bingo. The problem of ulnar deviation is solved. Achieves the same result as the Kinesis without having an oversized board. I would argue the TEK does this in a better way than the Kinesis. Having the forearms angled inwards is a more natural, relaxed position for me.


I'm totally with you on this.  If the keyboard is all one unit, then the TrulyErgonomic approach seems the most logical way to do it.  Why nobody else has done this to know is really quite mind-boggling though.  It's simply common sense to me.

I don't know that the position of the shift key would make so much difference to me, though without trying it I don't know for sure.

Positioning of some of the other keys though seems a bit strange to me.  I think if I used it I'd need to do some remapping.  Most importantly, I'm right handed and only use my right thumb for the space bar.  My left thumb goes unused.  So that separate left space bar would definitely get a commonly used key on it instead of space.  Maybe backspace or enter.

I think the arrows would take a lot of getting used to for me.  I still like my good old numpad used with the numlock off for cursoring.  If I ever tried a board like this out, I'd probably buy a separate keypad to be used for my cursoring.  I know, it somewhat defeats the concept if I have to move my hands over to a cursor pad, but several decades of doing that isn't going to be an easy habit to break.  I think it'd be easier for me if I could program the board for a numpad on a layer inside the normal typing area, such as J,K,L and up/down a row.

I wish the company would do something to install a bit more confidence in their ability to deliver this so obviously simple improvement to the standard layout.  I would imagine if they're successful at all they'll be copied by other board makers.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #114 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 14:40:39 »
Quote from: Sam;235558
I would imagine if they're successful at all they'll be copied by other board makers.
I don't think so. It seems people are so terrified of anything that deviates from the old typewriter design, they are reluctant to use it. Only the 'nerds' are interested in a board like this, I'm afraid.

Two reasons for getting this thing are: 1. It doesn't follow the age-old typewriter design and 2. Mechanical switches. I think the design is great, but it could be slightly better (although, I'd have to try it myself to really be sure). What I would change is take that bottom Del key you see on the image above, and basically split it. I'd make the two space bars slighty smaller to accomodate the new key, because I don't think it's necessary to have big spacebar buttons. And certainly not giant space-wasting spacebars you see on every keyboard.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 October 2010, 14:45:44 by Keymonger »

Offline elbowglue

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« Reply #115 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 14:53:22 »
Raj, you just became this keyboards next "I tested it and I love it!" fake review ;)

Seriously though the layout does look cool.
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #116 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 15:42:50 »
Quote from: ripster;235591
Nigerians are carving Raj's right now.


I said mahogany. MAHOGANY!

Sigh. No wonder their economy is shot.

Offline calavera

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« Reply #117 on: Mon, 18 October 2010, 21:12:01 »
I'm still debating whether I should pre-order this.. Also, judging by the pictures I think this keyboard is flat. You can tell by looking at a few pictures like the exposed brown switches picture. I would say for this to be a TRULY ergonomic keyboard it should be contoured like the Microsoft non-mechanical ones.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #118 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 10:25:08 »
this got me thinking for a future layout, maybe i'd mod another msergo 4k w/ cherry browns (or blues for something different) and use the truely ergonomic "straight line" layout, which to me is basically using a slightly staggered numpad layout. I've played my numpad around and testing it out, and it seems to work nice, i've even autohotkeyed my nostromo to kinda work that way too (it's almost straight lined), but i don't want to mod another keyboard!

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #119 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 12:34:48 »
You've reminded me why I like keys in straight columns. That's how the Nostromo does it. And it just works. No learning curve. No fumbling in games. Just works. If/when the TrulyErgonomic arrives I may finally retire my N52te. It effectively does what my Nostergotype mockup did, and more (but lacking the split adjustability):


Offline unicomp

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« Reply #120 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 13:31:26 »
Quote from: Rajagra;235998
Show Image


Nice.

Another note about this 'Truly Ergonomic Keyboard', surely if it was 'truly ergonomic' it would support more adjustment than it does currently? I would be put off by the fact that if the angle that the columns of keys are in is not to your suiting then you are effectively in a 'non-truly ergonomic' situation.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #121 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 13:31:59 »
but there's no such thing as a right handed nostromo =/

Offline WhiteRice

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« Reply #122 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 15:19:47 »
Quote from: Lanx;236025
but there's no such thing as a right handed nostromo =/
yet...

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #123 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 15:21:02 »
Quote from: unicomp;236024
Another note about this 'Truly Ergonomic Keyboard', surely if it was 'truly ergonomic' it would support more adjustment than it does currently? I would be put off by the fact that if the angle that the columns of keys are in is not to your suiting then you are effectively in a 'non-truly ergonomic' situation.


True, but let's be honest. The main reason you need to separate the two halves is to fix the problems caused by the traditional stagger. The TEK has fixed the stagger and separated the two hands a little more than normal keyboards. I think that will make it work for 90% of the population. Incidentally, 90% is the number of people that Datahand say their keyboard can be adjusted to.

A bigger concern for me is that it doesn't slope up towards the middle like the MS Ergonomic 4000. I think that would make it more comfortable. I wonder if that can be done with taller keycaps?
Quote from: Lanx;236025
but there's no such thing as a right handed nostromo =/

I know. It's tragic.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #124 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 15:51:52 »
oh it doesn't slope like the ms ergo? that's the only reason why i love the ms ergo so much, it has
1. the split
2. the slope
3. the negative incline
4. all working w/ nice wrist rest

i mean even the wrist rest is nicely molded.

Offline washuai

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« Reply #125 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 16:54:50 »
In the pictures it makes it look like the middle finger column of keys sits vertically higher than the flanking keys.  Optical illusion or varied key cap height or slightly raised switches? (though the switches look from the removed keycap pictures to be the same height).
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #126 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:15:12 »
Quote from: unicomp;236024
Nice.

Another note about this 'Truly Ergonomic Keyboard', surely if it was 'truly ergonomic' it would support more adjustment than it does currently? I would be put off by the fact that if the angle that the columns of keys are in is not to your suiting then you are effectively in a 'non-truly ergonomic' situation.
Marketing research revealed that "Yet Another Ergonomic Keyboard" would not reach the desired target audience, so they thought they could get away with "truly".

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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #127 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:20:14 »
Optical illusion I think. The keys for the longer fingers are just set back further.



It would be nice to hope the mounting plate was in two flat halves, forming a peak at the middle, but the presence of keys in the centre makes that unlikely.

Offline unicomp

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« Reply #128 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:21:23 »
Well it is clearly a marketing tool, however it leads to the natural question of how far one can take this notion. Can I make a keyboard named 'The Best Keyboard Ever Made'? Am I subject to some sort of guidelines as to the truthfulness of the name of my product or the apparent implication of the name?

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #129 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:28:36 »
Ergonomic just means some thought was put into the design about how it matches people's needs. Even a standard keyboard can be called ergonomic. Those arrow keys didn't just throw themselves into an inverted T pattern.

Offline unicomp

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« Reply #130 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:36:21 »
Well naturally one does note that the term 'ergonomically' is not well defined in any useful way.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #131 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:50:32 »
Quote from: unicomp;236147
Well naturally one does note that the term 'ergonomically' is not well defined in any useful way.


Sure it is. It is based in greek and stands for human engineering. Human engineering being "an applied science that coordinates the design of devices, systems, and physical working conditions with the capacities and requirements of the worker"

So yeah.

Offline unicomp

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« Reply #132 on: Tue, 19 October 2010, 18:53:23 »
Quote from: zefrer;236152
Sure it is. It is based in greek and stands for human engineering. Human engineering being "an applied science that coordinates the design of devices, systems, and physical working conditions with the capacities and requirements of the worker"

So yeah.

What I mean is that within the context of advertising there seems to be no explicit definition that must be fulfilled by a device such that one can attribute 'ergonomic' to it. One might phrase the objection more towards the rules governing advertising specifically, however it might be useful to have a more objective notion of what an 'ergonomic' device is.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #133 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 07:18:27 »
Looks like the pre-order price reduction has ended... it's listed for $200 now. I hope this means it's coming along nicely and that I'll get the board in December with no delays.

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #134 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 08:46:09 »
Quote from: Keymonger;237598
Looks like the pre-order price reduction has ended... it's listed for $200 now. I hope this means it's coming along nicely and that I'll get the board in December with no delays.


Yeah, I'm sure it does :tongue:

To be fair, this is far and away too much effort for a scam compared to the norm.  Unless this is the scam version of mass production...
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #135 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 11:53:23 »
Quote from: Keymonger;237598
Looks like the pre-order price reduction has ended... it's listed for $200 now. I hope this means it's coming along nicely and that I'll get the board in December with no delays.

Awesome.

Quote from: hoggy;237612
To be fair, this is far and away too much effort for a scam compared to the norm.


Yes. I also think there was too much work involved for this to be a one-man operation. I think the claim of being a "corporation" is total spin, but as long as their product is as well developed as the ideas I don't care much.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #136 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 14:13:14 »
I happen to own several corporations myself.  Uh, "we" enjoy compartmentalizing "our" assets to maximize efficiency and profits in "our" operation (get tax writeoffs and take advantage of corporate pricing, basically).

Offline CeeSA

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« Reply #137 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 04:38:35 »
i wonder there is no adress for the company @ webside
only "City of Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada"
but no postal adress or telephonenumber

there is no possibility to pick up a keyboard in vancouver?

hmm, hmm. pre-order with feeling blue? no

Offline rantenki

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« Reply #138 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 10:53:17 »
Quote from: CeeSA;239279
i wonder there is no adress for the company @ webside
only "City of Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada"
but no postal adress or telephonenumber

there is no possibility to pick up a keyboard in vancouver?

hmm, hmm. pre-order with feeling blue? no


Code: [Select]

Registrant Name: Truly Ergonomic
Registrant Company: Truly Ergonomic Ltd.
Registrant Email Address: TrulyErgonomic@shaw.ca
Registrant Address: 9100 West 3rd Avenue
Registrant City: Vancouver
Registrant State/Region/Province: BC
Registrant Postal Code: V6J 1L3
Registrant Country: CA
Registrant Tel No: +1.6045556677
Registrant Fax No: +1.6045556677


Did they really just use a 555 phone #? Oh yes they did! The address is real enough though.

Offline muchadoaboutnothing

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« Reply #139 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 11:35:52 »
Quote from: rantenki;239467
Did they really just use a 555 phone #? Oh yes they did! The address is real enough though.

Actually, only (XXX) 555-0100 to (XXX) 555-0200 are reserved in US and Canadian phone numbers for non-assignment.

It's technically possible that the number is real, but I kind of doubt it. You could try calling it.

If it's out of service, you can actually file a complaint to ICANN. This will force the domain registrant to update the domain with a valid contact phone number or lose ownership of it.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #140 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:04:23 »
Quote from: Keymonger;234632
I wonder how it's programmable though. Do you use something like a tool to configure and then 'flash' the 'firmware'? I don't know of any keyboards that are fully programmable.
Looks like the website has been updated:

Quote
(Programmable keys, etc etc...)

(...)

The software to do the above will be provided by us and will change the firmware of the keyboard. Hence, you can disconnect the keyboard and connect it to another computer preserving its functionality. If you are using a computer non-compatible with the software, you can use another compatible computer to reprogram your keyboard and then connect into your computer. The software also allows choosing from available layouts and templates, then changing required functionality and saving them for later use.

I like it. Sounds simple enough.

Offline HaaTa

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« Reply #141 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 17:16:05 »
Kiibohd

ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #142 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 17:59:43 »
Quote from: HaaTa;239633
Haha, Discovery...

KEYBOARD CLAIMS TO REVOLUTIONIZE TYPING

Such short-sighted comments. Is it that hard to find an external numpad.

Really I think that article does more harm than good seems like it just makes the TE look like some toy, what a ****ty article really.

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #143 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 18:33:41 »
what kind of a journalist hunt's and peck's? that's like thumbing through the driving manual to see if you can make a legal right turn while your at an intersection or you carry a pocket sized websters with you if your a politician and go , wait lemme look this word up while your giving a speech.

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #144 on: Wed, 27 October 2010, 20:29:30 »
You'd be surprised how many journalists and writers hunt and peck, simply because they never learned to type properly.

Offline Keymonger

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« Reply #145 on: Thu, 28 October 2010, 06:47:32 »
Quote from: HaaTa;239633
Haha, Discovery...

KEYBOARD CLAIMS TO REVOLUTIONIZE TYPING

Quote
Whew! One paragraph down, and I already need a break.

*facepalm*

:tsk:

woody

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« Reply #146 on: Thu, 28 October 2010, 07:04:31 »
Quote from: Rajagra;236144
Those arrow keys didn't just throw themselves into an inverted T pattern.

I still sniff about the good old days of the Model F cursor layout.
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« Last Edit: Sat, 05 February 2011, 14:07:48 by woody »

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #147 on: Sat, 30 October 2010, 23:39:37 »
I'm gonna mod my V2 ergo4k using this staggering, i'm torn between replicating the nostromo N52 staggering (pinky section is a little low) or staggering based on numpad area essentially or shfting the columns up+down a bit.

Offline Keymonger

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Truly Ergenomic
« Reply #148 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 11:09:00 »
Argh. It now says January 2011. I fear this thing ain't never gonna launch... why is it so hard to find a mechanical keyboard with a proper layout? This is stupid.

Offline HaaTa

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Truly Ergenomic
« Reply #149 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 11:53:26 »
Dude, January is 2 months away...
Kiibohd

ALWAYS looking for cool and interesting switches
I take requests for making keyboard converters (i.e. *old keyboard* to USB).