Author Topic: Topre Realforce: Low-Noise Line announced (Read 32233 times)

sixty · « **on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 01:37:26 »

Unsure how we missed this, since it was already announced about a week ago! I guess we are once again slacking with keeping up with the asian market.

Quote

Starting in early March, Leopold will begin to offer new "low-noise" versions of the existing Realforce 87U models. These will be identical to the normal Realforce 87U models besides the fact that they will be even quieter. This is achieved by internal changes to the rubber dome. Diatec has announced that they will also carry a Japanese and English version of the new "low-noise" line soon. Depending on the success the low-noise line may be extended to other Realforce models.

Silent:

Normal:

Via Leopold

From what I can tell from first reports so far it is said that the feeling is slightly different and the keys feel more light. I guess Topre finally got rid of their trademark "thock" sounds and has now finally managed to come up with the true $250 default rubber dome! Congratulations.

HaaTa · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 02:07:51 »

Hmm, I was wondering if I should pick up a RealForce. Now I'll have to go try one out.

ch_123 · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 03:35:24 »

Who else is wondering just how good an idea this thing really is?

clickclack · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 04:41:39 »

I know people who really would like a quiet keyboard, but have found the quiet offerings to be rather poor. This sounds like a great product for them. I however love the sound of the keys on the 87u and HHK boards.

That earlier quote about the rubber dome having been altered sounds odd to me. I don't think the rubber domes contribute to the "noise" making at all. I think all the noise comes from the plastic independant sliding stem. And the majority of the noise seems to come from the rebound. So I would think that a solution similar to what they did on the old AEKII boards (dampened sliders) would be more ideal. Hmm... unless the dome was "attached" to the underside of the keystem.

The diagram (if new) is rather confusing to me. There seems to be yet another rubber dome surrounding the inner normal-ish dome. Either way the illustration is deceptive yes/no?

Mercen_505 · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 08:45:25 »

I Initially read the post title as "Low Line Noise" and got severely confused for a moment.

MANISH7 · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 09:14:08 »

Quote from: webwit;162097

the land of the silent mouse.

thanks...this is something i could use. i'll add this to my wishlist. later when i'm about to buy i will find out if this is optical or laser and if i can use it for gaming. i know it can't beat the mx518 but the silent feature is cool & useful.

o2dazone · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 15:14:54 »

I kind of like the thocking

Makes me feel like I'm getting to work. Chunka-chunka-chunk

ch_123 · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 15:25:16 »

Quote from: ripster;162117

Actually, I'm glad to see Topre doing SOME innovation other than just changing the colors of the keys.

Throw in a superfluous slider and spring in so that it doesn't look like a rubber dome keyboard. Prove lal wrong an' all.

Amusing anecdote time - During the 80s, the British computer manufacturer Amstrad released a machine that had some nasty defect in the first batch that caused the machines to crash all the time. The public came to believe that it was caused by the lack of fan in the machine. In fact, the system had been designed in such a way that it really didn't need a fan, and the problem was completely unrelated to cooling. But when the problem was fixed, people were still suspicious of the design because they still thought that the lack of a fan was to blame. So they came out with a later revision of the machine that had a large, noisy fan bolted on to the side of it that did absolutely nothing, but caused sales to pick up dramatically.

trievalot · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 16:06:18 »

what PC was this??? the Mega PC?

ch_123 · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 16:08:22 »

Unfortunately I don't know which model it was. I remember reading that they did it in a book, but the book didn't state which model they were talking about.

trievalot · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 16:44:57 »

ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames

TexasFlood · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 17:59:27 »

Quote from: trievalot;162214

ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames

I had a Super Pet SP9000 years ago but wife forced me to give it away before a move, :-( Can't say that I really miss it but it's shame what fate probably befell it.

didjamatic · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 06 March 2010, 18:19:06 »

Want to try! Hopefully some white ones will be imported into the US.

JulienC · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 07 March 2010, 11:03:51 »

Quote from: trievalot;162214

ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames

All you need for that is run the HCF instruction.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 07 March 2010, 13:22:23 »

Quote from: trievalot;162214

ive always wanted a commodore pet, ive heard the motor on off command will cause them to burst into flames

Quote from: JulienC;162304
All you need for that is run the HCF instruction.

I think that bursting into flames was an urban legend, but I'm really not sure as this was a long time ago. There were "killer pokes" for various computers. The PET one resulted from a hardware revision which changed the effect of doing a POKE to a memory location with a PEEK masked with some value, an unofficial way to speed up screen updates by the video chip. After the revision, the display ran faster without this step but that memory location was now mapped to different hardware. Now the POKE command caused the screen to warp after a few lines and not display the rest of the screen and the keyboard to become unresponsive. Allegedly letting the PET run like this would cause the video chip to accelerate to the point that it would overheat and destroy itself although I'm not sure this is true or yet another urban legand. Powering the PET off and back on cleared the condition.

There are other examples of manipulating hardware via memory mapped hardware controller registers for performance improvement or novelty. Examples I recall with regard to Commodore computers include speeding up loading from tape and disk drives. I also remember a program that vibrated the disk drive head causing a metal band to vibrate such that it played "Daisy Bell". This is the song which the HAL 9000 computer sang as it was deactivated in "2001: A Space Odyssey".

Geez, the unless info I have in my head, while stuff I need to remember just runs out my ears onto the floor, :sad:

Rajagra · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 07 March 2010, 14:27:33 »

There was a similar tale of a rogue program that could destroy MZ-80K computers.

Of course the myth is now fact. Any fool can destroy a CPU by overclocking.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 07 March 2010, 14:52:05 »

Quote from: Rajagra;162324

There was a similar tale of a rogue program that could destroy MZ-80K computers.

Of course the myth is now fact. Any fool can destroy a CPU by overclocking.

True enough. I found some interesting links on that Wikipedia killer poke page, some other CPU vulnerabilities I'd never heard of, such as the Intel f00f bug and the Cyrix coma bug. Clearly there is more of this type if thing out there than I knew of.

wordfool · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon, 08 March 2010, 02:23:22 »

back to the new "quiet" Topre kb... the only thing they have to do to make mine quiet is fix the damn rattling spacebar -- that alone accounts for about 50% of the noise when typing.

sixty · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon, 08 March 2010, 03:25:28 »

Okay, finally most mysteries are solved.

ScarFace has received a prototype sample of the keyboard and posted up really awesome pictures of everything, including very detailed macro pictures of the switches. Since Naver does not easily allow me to copy pics check out his full article (in Korean language):

http://cafe.naver.com/sfkey.cafe?iframe_url=/ArticleRead.nhn%3Farticleid=396

It appears like the domes are indeed unchanged and the plunger is being given a softer landing with the aid of a foam ring. Very similar to that ring-o mod or nanu's rubber foam mod.

salcan · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 08 March 2010, 07:57:32 »

Quote from: sixty;162487

Okay, finally most mysteries are solved.

ScarFace has received a prototype sample of the keyboard and posted up really awesome pictures of everything, including very detailed macro pictures of the switches. Since Naver does not easily allow me to copy pics check out his full article (in Korean language):

http://cafe.naver.com/sfkey.cafe?iframe_url=/ArticleRead.nhn%3Farticleid=396

It appears like the domes are indeed unchanged and the plunger is being given a softer landing with the aid of a foam ring. Very similar to that ring-o mod or nanu's rubber foam mod.

that guy take awesome pictures. I guess he has rightclicking disabled and the page in some sort of iframe so it's tough to google translate.

itlnstln · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 08 March 2010, 11:06:46 »

Christ, how much more quiet could it possibly be? Other than my G80-3000, it's the quietest 'board I own. Really, how quiet does your workspace have to be, or how anal do you have to be where Topre switches are too loud?

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon, 08 March 2010, 11:47:18 »

I sense they'll declare it their new top-of-the-line board and sell it at $300+. Everybody serious about typing will have to get one. :madgrin:

dion2k · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 09 March 2010, 10:09:57 »

I really love me some thocks, although for some reason I still feel compelled to try this mod. I've had many fond years with my Northgate and I have loved it very much, and in some ways I think the audible click suited me better back then, it always got attention at the LANs. But now I'm all about the Topres, no going back.

elbowglue · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 09 March 2010, 14:45:56 »

So is the main mod the rubber band looking foam piece that prevents noise from plastic on plastic upon key "topping out?" It seems it would reduce travel however it seems it would prevent the first 1mm of travel from occuring, as opposed to the last 1mm of travel in the "dental bands" method on brown cherries. This would make the topre actuate even closer to the top of the switch. Well, it would make the starting position closer to the actuation point and take the mm's off the top.

clickclack · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 05:33:45 »

Quote from: ripster;162538

... The problem though with the way Topre did it is it's kinda half assed. They are reducing the key travel - eyeballing it it's close to one mm....

Quote from: elbowglue;162803

So is the main mod the rubber band looking foam piece that prevents noise from plastic on plastic upon key "topping out?" It seems it would reduce travel however it seems it would prevent the first 1mm of travel from occuring.....

When I was looking at the photos it seemed as if the original plastic base/stopper was actually thicker than the new one. This would account for the added thickness of the foam ring, thus making the key travel the same on the new version, or atleast a non issue.

Rajagra · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 07:13:53 »

Quote from: ripster;162820

The Japanese don't like to do firmware changes.[/youtube]

It really scares me that there are people driving cars who don't know that the ignition switch can cut the engine off. (Yes, without locking the steering up.)

kishy · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 07:36:28 »

Quote from: Rajagra;162885

It really scares me that there are people driving cars who don't know that the ignition switch can cut the engine off. (Yes, without locking the steering up.)

I think the problem is that the computer locks out the ability to shut off the engine in those vehicles while at speed...remember hearing someone mention that. From what I've seen of the very recent Prius-highway-California-whatever incident it took many repeated attempts to shut off the engine before the car responded.

Similarly, the transmission cannot be geared down forcefully by pushing it into one of the low ranges because the computer locks out that functionality once you're past a safe RPM and speed for that range (this is true for all modern vehicles with electronically controlled automatic transmissions, so just about everything made after 1995 and many vehicles prior as well).

Toyota designed the safest car in the world, if you happen to be the engine. You'll never be allowed to rev too high.

itlnstln · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 07:59:45 »

Damn computers.

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 08:40:28 »

Car engineers should take a look at the industrial machinery in their factories for inspiration. They'll find out that each machine has big red buttons all over, which bypass any electronics and will stop the engine no matter what.

itlnstln · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 10:44:49 »

How unnerving would that be; having an "Emergency Shutdown" in your car? It would appear that the company isn't confident in their programmers, so they put an "Abort Mission" button just in case all Hell breaks loose. A good idea in general, but not good idea for sales.

Rajagra · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 11:08:21 »

It isn't a new problem.

Mental Hobbit · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 10 March 2010, 11:16:30 »

They could paint them green and call them eco button.
The red buttons on industrial machinery aren't there cause the marketing guys like them. And they aren't hard-wired cause engineers like costly redundant circuits. They're there cause they're mandatory (at least in Europe) and noone gives a rat's ass about manufacturers' opinion on them.

hyperlinked · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 12 March 2010, 01:26:53 »

Quote from: ripster;162941

Lol. Check this. The guy that invented Ctrl-Alt-Del.

The look on Bill Gates' face was priceless when he said "I may have invented it, but Bill made it famous."

Rajagra · « **Reply #33 on:** Fri, 12 March 2010, 04:34:27 »

Quote from: ripster;162941

The guy that invented Ctrl-Alt-Del

was probably in partnership with the guy making these...

watduzhkstand4 · « **Reply #34 on:** Fri, 12 March 2010, 21:59:46 »

The topre switches have been nice and quiet with me. Will the quiet ones wear out after a while and ends up being as loud from the play of each key? =/

bhtooefr · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 14 March 2010, 16:25:25 »

Quote from: kishy;162888

I think the problem is that the computer locks out the ability to shut off the engine in those vehicles while at speed...remember hearing someone mention that. From what I've seen of the very recent Prius-highway-California-whatever incident it took many repeated attempts to shut off the engine before the car responded.

To be specific, in Toyotas with a push-button ignition, you have to hold the button for 3.3 seconds before it will respond. Just like ATX, but people may not know that.

With a key ignition, I don't believe there's a single car that allows the ECU to still receive power with the key anywhere but on or start. And, on EFI, removing power from the ECU kills the PWM signal to the fuel injectors (meaning they don't fire) as well as the signals to the coils, meaning they don't fire, so you don't get fuel or spark. Need compressed air, fuel, and spark for a gasoline engine to run, take away either of them, and things stop.

However, the reason for not allowing the push-button ignition to shut off the car with just a tap, ironically, was to prevent lawsuits. They didn't want someone to accidentally bump the button, causing engine power to go away when the driver least expected it.

Quote from: kishy;162888

Similarly, the transmission cannot be geared down forcefully by pushing it into one of the low ranges because the computer locks out that functionality once you're past a safe RPM and speed for that range (this is true for all modern vehicles with electronically controlled automatic transmissions, so just about everything made after 1995 and many vehicles prior as well).

Toyota designed the safest car in the world, if you happen to be the engine. You'll never be allowed to rev too high.

And on Toyotas, they don't even allow entering neutral with over 50% throttle, to prevent an overrev that the ECU can't react to in time.

Myself, I'll just stick to my car with key ignition and a manual transmission.

JulienC · « **Reply #36 on:** Sun, 14 March 2010, 16:40:19 »

In case you need to google those acronyms too:
ATX: Advanced Technology Extended
ECU: Electronic Control Unit
EFI: Electronic Fuel Injection
PWM: Pulse Width Modulation

Quote from: bhtooefr;163995

And on Toyotas, they don't even allow entering neutral with over 50% throttle, to prevent an overrev that the ECU can't react to in time.

Take a look at this video.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #37 on:** Mon, 15 March 2010, 00:53:20 »

Although the Prius has a non-conventional drivetrain. The reports I've heard about the Toyotas not going into neutral are in those with conventional, torque converter and planetary gear, stuck on the end of an internal combustion engine, no electric motor drivetrains.

Myself, it's irrelevant to me. The car I drive (not a Toyota,) the only thing that can keep me from entering neutral is mechanical failure inside the transmission (not even shifter failure, as the shifter's a rod that goes straight into the transmission.) Even if that happens, I have the clutch pedal. Even if *THAT* happens, the key will cut all electrical power to the fuel delivery and ignition systems.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed, 17 March 2010, 20:12:53 »

Quote from: ripster;164976

If you are picky about sounds you might want to check this. The Realforce sounded more solid to me but listen for yourself. I'm pretty sure that is the older model Realforce.

HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:

salcan · « **Reply #39 on:** Wed, 17 March 2010, 22:07:17 »

Quote from: TexasFlood;164998

HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:

that's exactly what i took from that video as well. Is this generally the case?

clickclack · « **Reply #40 on:** Thu, 18 March 2010, 01:52:29 »

Quote from: TexasFlood;164998

HHKB sounds more "thocky" & realforce more "thacky", :biggrin:

I think that's a great way to put it.

I don't really think that vid sounds like those keyboards though. The HHKB sounds deeper in person, and indeed has a "thock" to it, especially certain keys. The Realforce sounds a bit more "thacky" and has a slight rattle sound to them.

Neither of the keyboards sound in person as cheap/bad as they do in that vid. In part it's the recording, but I'm sure it's mostly the very frantic slapping of the keys. I would not go by the sounds in that vid unfortunately (errr... wait I mean fortunately)

=)

itlnstln · « **Reply #41 on:** Thu, 18 March 2010, 07:20:49 »

I agree with clickclack, I don't think that vid really captured the true sound of the 'boards. The vid makes them much higher-pitched than they are in person. That said, if you do own at least one of them, you can get the general idea.

Rajagra · « **Reply #42 on:** Thu, 18 March 2010, 07:40:45 »

The sound was so badly out of sync when I played it, it was hard to tell which sound was from which keyboard. But I worked out that the Realforce had the deeper tone and should be the 'thocky' one, the higher-pitched HHKB is 'thacky' to me.

My ones sound completely different. I use them on grip-mat (shelf-liner) with the feet retracted. Makes them sound even more quiet and classy. Maybe too quiet for those who enjoy the sound.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #43 on:** Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:30:40 »

Quote from: Rajagra;165088

The sound was so badly out of sync when I played it, it was hard to tell which sound was from which keyboard. But I worked out that the Realforce had the deeper tone and should be the 'thocky' one, the higher-pitched HHKB is 'thacky' to me.

My ones sound completely different. I use them on grip-mat (shelf-liner) with the feet retracted. Makes them sound even more quiet and classy. Maybe too quiet for those who enjoy the sound.

I don't have either so just going by the video. Although it is out of sync here as well, the HHKB spacebar is the first key pressed (and pressed and pressed) and that is the one that sounds 'thocky' to me. Although it may not be truly representative of the keyboards, I really have know way of knowing. I just got my first cherry brown keyboard, an MX11800 from neptunebadger. My initial impression is that most of the noise of typing on it is not from 'bottoming out' thacking when the keys rebound and 'top out' causing the caps to resonate. Not sure if there is anything to be done about that.

TexasFlood · « **Reply #44 on:** Thu, 18 March 2010, 10:48:51 »

Quote from: ripster;165129

Spacebars are supposed to be loud.

It's no fun typing otherwise.

I've never liked this "thocky" term. Must be an asian thing.

I thought it was an onomatopoeia thing. Try saying that 10 times really fast, :smile:.

Arc'xer · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 29 March 2010, 04:29:57 »

Not sure if this has been posted before but seems like it hasn't.

Low noise realforce 87

vs

Normal noise realforce 87

Rajagra · « **Reply #46 on:** Mon, 29 March 2010, 09:41:56 »

Quote from: The Ripster;165129

I've never liked this "thocky" term. Must be an asian thing.

Perhaps this will make things clear, you Cantankerous Keyboard Critic... :tongue:

didjamatic · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 29 March 2010, 10:23:31 »

Holy Thocky Keyboards Batman!!! Awesome graphic!

"Thock" mimics the sound of a Topre switch very well and it's short and easy to type so it sticks.

If it was easier to type "creek-kapow-boyoyoing" for buckling springs or "chink-a-pink-tiddlywink" for blue cherries, I'm sure those would be used often as well.

BucklingSpring · « **Reply #48 on:** Tue, 30 March 2010, 06:44:55 »

Quote from: ch_123;162093

Who else is wondering just how good an idea this thing really is?

Not me. I just got a standard Realforce and it's the lowest noise of all the boards I own. Since it is not a loud board to start with. Making it even less does not add value to me.

Otterclock · « **Reply #49 on:** Tue, 30 March 2010, 09:19:09 »

Have they been released in other markets? I actually like the sound, lack thereof, of the new one. Probably an instant purchase for me if they become available. (nvm, just read the OP more carefully)

The o-ring type additions they use look more like a foam material. I wonder if something like that exists that will fit a cherry key, instead of the rubber/silicon ring mod.

News:

Author Topic: Topre Realforce: Low-Noise Line announced (Read 32233 times)